Music now adays...

[Blank]

What specifically do you all not like about the electronica scene now...what specifically in the music is cloned or reused alot...heck lets broaden this to every music...ill share my ideas as we go but i want to here some feeback first on your guys' views...

peace
Blank

BTW this thread is were u can be completely honest...no one take offense to this...these r opinions...

[Juho L]

http://www.sunesha.nu/virusforum/viewtopic.php?t=1984

Ill just posted that link, in which we started a bit on this subject.

It's known fact that nowadays it's impossible to make completely new music, so you're forced to copy and imitate or just stop making music. Mut the good thing is that there's still lots of stuff that hadn't been combined before and stuff that has been completely frogotten years ago. So you're still able to make fresh new music with using old ideas with new ones. That's my vision of new and fresh music.

What about the state of electronic music? Probably the biggest probelm is ultra sterile categorisation. There's few main genres and there are sub genres and there's unfortunately one thing that combines all the genres: They're too incest and sterile. There are strict rules that everyone plays with and this leads to copy-paste effect. I just can't understand why this happens. Most of the artists just somehow don't bother to try anything new. I don't know is it because of a fear of rejection or what. I'd gladly hear insane combinations of different genres from folk to classical and electronica, but no-one seems to be trying any new combinations.

The other thing I have to say (and what I have said many times before) is that a good way to get yourself a record contract is to try something new and stand out the mass.

[Hollowcell]

Probably the biggest probelm is ultra sterile categorisation. There's few main genres and there are sub genres and there's unfortunately one thing that combines all the genres: They're too incest and sterile. There are strict rules that everyone plays with and this leads to copy-paste effect.

i aggree with this. except for the word probelm :D

many people stick to rules and structures, which to me, takes away the fun of electronic music. electronic music is the only style of music in which u can be completely free to make anything you want...but many people still stick to exactly the same structure and sound...

its even got to the point where people want the exact same bass sound playing the exact same rif they have heard in one of their favorite songs.

i think if people want to remix the same sounds, they should have bought decks and a few disc instead of synths and samplers.

[Blank]

yeah i understand what u mean by copy paste...but i was hopeing to get more indepth like maybe siteing examples...or sayin what in the music/songs that is so cloned...I think if we can clear up what is so reused atleast ppl here might get an idea how to change it... :wink:

Im leaning more toward the studder melody lines and the 4-8 part phrases that blocked like so:

C-C--CCC|E-E--EEE|F-F--FFF|A-A--GGG|

that seems really copy and paste to me...And half u noticed alot of trance is made C...if not in C its Ab or Eb... I think its become too patternized...

peace
Blank

[evolver]

http://www.sunesha.nu/virusforum/viewtopic.php?t=1984
It's known fact that nowadays it's impossible to make completely new music, so you're forced to copy and imitate or just stop making music.


it should not be that one seeks to make something completely new, but instead seeks to express what is unique about them personally.

With the advent of electrical instruments, electronics, multi track recording, digital recording (and so on) it was easy to do something novel and sort of stop at that. But if you analyze what was done even in these "new" things it is based on the same forms that have been components of music for millenia.

ultimately it is whether or not the musician has a valid expression whether or not their music will be good. Did classical composers feel restricted because the technology of their times changed infrequently(by comparison to our own times) ?
evolver

[Blank]

Well classical music is not really a good example...because in that day the production time on music along with the time it took to get to the audience was alot longer...and it was also subject to region...its not all about the instruments...like me and Juho have discussed b4 about the guitar...the sound it self is quite reputitious in its use...but its the player that makes the difference...and i believe this can also be used in synths...it just takes the patience to learn how to use them...you cant be a star guitar player in one year...music production i believe has become a race against time...the music industry needs songs "now" to make more money...so instead of taking the time to gain experience with the instrument i believe ppl copy just as was stated b4...just like punk...and how in the 80's the jigga jigga riff became popular...for example...a stead up down motion on the guitar...and every 4 motions (2 down 2 up) the would switch power chords...this became very popular because it was easy...not to say all were doing it but many were...i think ppl have just become impatient...they want everything now...so instead of learning the just grab what some1 else has done and copy it...this goes for all music stylings...

peace
Blank

BTW what i wanted to know was what about the songs do u not like...is it the basslines, the sounds, the chord progressions? what?

[Smag]

Genres in general are a lot more fluid than a lot of people may think. One genre doesn't start where one stops, they all overlap and influence each other and always have done. E.g. The Rolling Stones developed from Blues, House is heavily influenecd by Disco. If you look at all "supposedly" new music, they all tend to be hybrids of stuff that's been done before. It follows that musicians must be fluid in their creativity also if they want to make fresh sounding stuff. If you become entrenched in one particular type of sound for too long you're going against the natural flow of musical development.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

I think its generally down to this:

1) There are alot of bedroom wanabees who release on obscure lables....and who have had no/very little musical training. I think poor songwriting is the Number 1 cause. Its a well documented fact that synthesizers allows musically inept people to make 'music'. Coupled with a lack of musical theory, is a lack of creativity and an over reliance on overused presets.

2) Synthesizers have been used for dance music since late 80's, early 90's and we have all been exposed to 303's, power chords and distorted leads. Its hard if not impossible to sound fresh if you keep using those sounds.

3) Midi. You wanna sound a bit different? Hmm..... use as little midi as possible. Try playing parts in live. Open/close filters live......it makes a big difference and it really alters the general feeling of the track. Ive listened to 80's stuff....even some early 90's rave that quite obviously used manual filter manipulations. Refreshing! Your virus was designed for live tweaking...so why not try it?

Juho is right to point out that artists just dont bother to try something new. But I suspect that this refers to point No. 1

I should imagine that a classically trained pianist (who could be converted to the dark side of techno) would be able to come up with something interesting.

DS

[Blank]

I dont even think it needs to go as far as classically trained pianists...just simple ppl who want to learn more about manipulating and morphing music and its structure...you dont need to know an instrument to know music...because the body can be an instrument...but you do have to possess a want to learn more about what you love...like with anything...music is easy money for most entertainers...even if its just playing records at a weekend party...

peace
Blank

[Filly]

The reason I think a lot of trance sounds a bit stale and samey, is that a lot of the time, it's DJ's making the progression from DJing to producing. People just want to make music now, so as a result they take whatever shortcuts they can. how often do you see unanswered posts on trance forums by people asking for tips on 'how to make a big lead' or 'how to make an A&B bassline'. They use presets as opposed to learning how to program the synth and stick to tried and tested riffs and patterns. They, and I partly speak for myself, just want to make music that sounds good when you're off your tits on drugs, which doesn't take that much originality. I too am guilty of this - but I do have some programming knowledge and try to make all my patches myself.

The fact is, there is so much to learn, that people tend to stick to tried and tested whilst they find their feet, finishing the first track is always a milestone, and people take whatever shortcuts they can to achieve it - The people who really make the effort to build their own sound will succeed, and there will be hundreds of bedroom DJs/producers who won't go the extra yard to make their stuff sound unique and instead swamp the file-sharing community with their remixes of peak time anthems.

I agree that something original is more likely to get signed - A lot of the time though, people just want to make music that sounds good, it doesn't have to be original - if it did, no one would be listening to trance anymore, yet it's the most popular genre.

8)

[Tomer=Trance]

i think trance is just a starting point,for me anything to move into something different in a few years
recordings i hope
big production which doesnt have to be pop music.
for example-i saw alot of trance people who were very successful and moved into rock over the years.

[saba]

http://www.di.fm/edmguide/edmguide.html
________
Magic Flight (http://mflbvaporizer.com)

[emperor]

In the 70's the markets for music and the massive record companies didnt have strategys as honed for marketing a particular style of music, we had all sorts of music in the charts at that time, and also because the average musician who made it, had that little bit extra, those that didnt , didnt have the ability to make trance tunes, anywhere near the quality of the professional, which we can do now. Home recording was a luxury.

So only those that excelled in their field ever got a look in, as far as raw talent and ideas rather than flashy sounds, that short term flatter to decieve. And as such true talent was given more goodies to make them shine. Now its easier to make very good music, but even for them times, its still exceptionally hard to make great music.

As now market forces are the crux of all profit anything that is popular is king, trance is popular so what do we have, loads of companys making grooveboxes and VA,s to satisfy the markets, a truly genuine instrument as in the past, the Kawai K5000s, The Wavestation, the Fizmo, all something different but never shifted as much as The M1,s and D50,s, and so whatever music is popular will reflect in what synths they make at the time. So the music is uniformaic, and an endless amount of those who buy these machines have dreams of doing well working with the same old machines. And so people do not have access to original music, R&B, Rap, Trance, its all lifestyle music, and a fashion ringing out the coffersnecks long after the death of it. So dull. Take that Groovebox, and instead of using the patterns, and sounds edit something original, make something different to all the others. We have a society of clones where nothing is original, music ideally has run its course as in innovations, where does it go from here. We are all semi controlled and forced into decisions of limited choice, there is nothing new as were told what to like and what to do, so what is the creations of that society going to be?. I suppose the only thing to do is regardless of what is fashionable, if trance or folk, or hip hop is in your soul, you have to be true to what you love.

Not what you think people will love.

i still do think there is some amazing original artists out there its just with the internet, and lots of other telecommunications, the world has got more a saturation of dross. Take your virus C, and forget that it ever made dance music.

I agree with what was said before, its not that a classical trained musician, could do something original, as they are learnt by a certain code. You just need to express your originality and personality, or your feelings in music.

i do and its Shit!! :twisted:

Sorry couldnt resist, he he he , By the way i wont ever say im original and that my music is great, cause its so easy to slate music rather than make a great peice of music. I look forward to being poor for the rest of my life, lol

[Tomer=Trance]

well face it people like to copy!
fasion
hairstyle
walk
talk
art (music included)

this is what society is based on,it seems that we have a need to copy and when some originator apears he is called "one of a kind" or "unique" some things should be taken as they are.

[grs]

I have a Dawinist theory of musical tastes. When there's a fresh new style it's like an infectious virus, it realy takes off. After a while people build up a resistance to the sound so it has to mutate a little bit to keep being fresh. If you straight out copy something it's going to have no effect, so if you mutate it a little you can re-infect. Also if you invent a whole new strain from scratch (i,e, synth pop with 6 and a half beats using trombones for drums) your going to have to be utterly brilliant to take control of the masses.

So from a scale of clone=1 to trombone for drums=10 you have to aim somewhere in the mutate scale where you think you might be of most use to society. I move around the scale alot, I always avoid 1 but seem to drift closer to it and see the sense of catching the right infectious parts of some styles at times.

[Hollowcell]

I have a Dawinist theory of musical tastes. When there's a fresh new style it's like an infectious virus, it realy takes off. After a while people build up a resistance to the sound so it has to mutate a little bit to keep being fresh. If you straight out copy something it's going to have no effect, so if you mutate it a little you can re-infect. Also if you invent a whole new strain from scratch (i,e, synth pop with 6 and a half beats using trombones for drums) your going to have to be utterly brilliant to take control of the masses.

great analogy! :D

[Juho L]

In the 70's the markets for music and the massive record companies didnt have strategys as honed for marketing a particular style of music, we had all sorts of music in the charts at that time, and also because the average musician who made it, had that little bit extra, those that didnt , didnt have the ability to make trance tunes, anywhere near the quality of the professional, which we can do now. Home recording was a luxury.

This is just what was great in 70's. The music businessa actually wasn't industrialised. You didn't get a recording contract if you looked good. You got a contract if you were talented and original. That's the main reason why there are so many classics from that era. The record companies took risks and did they all go bankrupt frequently? No. They got heaps of gold records and made records that are still remembered today as one of the best records of the 20th century.

One reason I tend to dislike 80's (sorry DS, hoho) is that 80's started the industrisation of music business. The marketing got really narrowly targeted and risk taking started gradually disappear. In modern industry risks are hardly taken at all and sadly this leads to a point that completely different and personal stuff won't get released by big budget, only small companies take the risk usually because they are led by people that run the company just because of sheer love for music. The big record companies work like globalised corporations: Their only aim is to get huge profits with laughably low costs.

And back to the electronic music business: Home recording is too cheap. Hoho. Sometimes I feel that some smaller companies just aim for quantity instead of quality. Really boring stuff gets released like on production line and the insane amount of boring releases make finding the jewels hard or even impossible. The cheapness of production equipement is feeding this progress. Although it's nice that starting music production is in reach for everyone, but the consequences are not desireable when combined with the more-is-more attitude of the companies. Anyone can get good sound with really small investiment and anyone can make simple electronic music with few months of practice. This means fresh blood for small companies. Rubbish recordings after rubbish recordings... Good thing though that the small companies don't distribute their releases wery broadly. We still have hope. Muahaha.

[jasedee]

And back to the electronic music business: Home recording is too cheap. Hoho.
But Juho.....your studio is full of cheap equipment/software.......the affordability is what is keeping you making music. How can you be against this?

[Tomer=Trance]

now days the big companies like sony recordings for say
will rather release a new 16 yr old britny then a fresh original triphop dou with an ugly looking singer.

thats the problem,they (big recoring companies) think they know the crowed who buys the music but they dont,they just make them belive they want\need another britny,send tons of sms and eat mc'donalds.

society sux now days,i say on with communism and goverment music :D

[jasedee]

now days the big companies like sony recordings for say
will rather release a new 16 yr old britny then a fresh original triphop dou with an ugly looking singer
Well of course....how are they going to make any fucking money from some ugly trip-hopper?????

It's all about the cash Im afraid....like it or not, and you cant bitch about these companies because they do not dictate what you are listening to, they do not force you to buy shit, but there are a whole lot of soul-less people out there that need to be told what to listen to, what to wear, what to eat.....

So next time britney comes on MTV, turn the channel, next time you hear her on the radio, what the fuck station are you listening to that plays Britney anyways?????

[Juho L]

But Juho.....your studio is full of cheap equipment/software.......the affordability is what is keeping you making music. How can you be against this?

At the end of renovation it will be about 4500?. Wouldn't call it cheap.

[jasedee]

At the end of renovation it will be about 4500?. Wouldn't call it cheap.
My Studio cost me well over AUD$20,000 (roughly 12,000 Euros) and I would certainly put myself in the "project Studio" bracket (ie cheap)

[Juho L]

My Studio cost me well over AUD$20,000 (roughly 12,000 Euros) and I would certainly put myself in the "project Studio" bracket (ie cheap)

When you compare that to cost of Reason and basic PC it's really not cheap.

[Wandering Kid]

The reason I think a lot of trance sounds a bit stale and samey, is that a lot of the time, it's DJ's making the progression from DJing to producing. People just want to make music now, so as a result they take whatever shortcuts they can. how often do you see unanswered posts on trance forums by people asking for tips on 'how to make a big lead' or 'how to make an A&B bassline'. They use presets as opposed to learning how to program the synth and stick to tried and tested riffs and patterns. They, and I partly speak for myself, just want to make music that sounds good when you're off your tits on drugs, which doesn't take that much originality. I too am guilty of this - but I do have some programming knowledge and try to make all my patches myself.

this simply is not true and is yet another example of stereotyping the trance scene. you will get people asking how you make typical 'leads' and 'basses' in any kind of music. its part of the learning process to dissect something that already works really well to see what makes it work. and then once you become familar with that you gradually apply what you find out to your music and you reiterate and extend the concept until your sound is unrecogniseable from the original influence. everybody does this and not just in music. ive done this in painting. secondly, most of the people on tranceaddict.com are flat out against the use of presets and most build their own patches. you will see the same on audiopioneers.net and serious-sounds.net and generoproject.com.

alot of them happen to like supersaws or variations on the detuned spread lead but there is surprising variety in this and i dont believe the supersaw has exhausted its potential owing to the fact it is mutating in all sorts of different genres (from hardcore and hard house down to isratrance and so forth) into harder or softer kinds of tones. this discussion has been brought up before with hoovers on KVR. the hoover is just like any other type of sound from an instrument. its expressiveness comes from the player and the players ability to program that sound as mentioned in this thread. much more so than from any innate failing or cliche in that type of sound itself. theres a reason why they became cliched in the first place - because they sound fucking phat which alot of people cannot get enough of. same with the 303.

lastly, i see patterns in every style of music and i do mean every style. rock music is built on A, D, G chords. chuck berry only ever used like 8 chords and he was a riff machine and pretty much every rock song after that has taken some influence, directly or indirectly from him. even supposedly freeform type music like industrial and ambient have patterns, not necessarily musically because niether are exactly musical in the theoretical sense but thematically and structurally (or by their total absense of any structure).

additionally, with regards to dance music. you must realise that a big part of dance music is experiencing it live. many types of dance music (such as hard house) are extremely rigid with regards to form (4 bars comprising a single phrase with a small fill per phrase. 4 phrases comprising a movement with a longer fill marking the end such as a fading snare roll. each movement usually introduces a new synth hook or an extra layer and there are typically 4 movements and then a break down. a vocal sample of sorts. a crazy snare/kick roll, a 1 note riff and the whole thing starts again.) now. you can say what you want about hard house and ridicule it all you like but a good example of this form is base grafitti - house always wins. you will never appreciate this track as fully as you can until you see the devastation it causes when it drops in slinky. 1 note is all it is. alot of hard house consists of very minimal, 1 note rhymic patterns. this music is rigid precisely because its made to be performed. its made to be DJed. and its good at what it sets out to do - turn dancefloors into the aftermath of battlefields. and it gets great results when you play it out. you can keep hard house tunes in the mix for ages and get interesting builds and combinations just by having 2 tunes going together for 2 minutes or more and having the time to fuck around and get the drop perfect. and thats because of its structural rigidity. the most successful tunes will be the ones which work with most of the others. tunes that mix well are more likely to be played out. more likely to cause more devastation per dancefloor per square mile. so there is a continuous selective process going on here where clubs and DJs and artists retain the stuff that works for a specific purpose and ditches the deadweight. music becomes more specialised but at the same time more focused on a specific idea or sound. theres no room for arsey tracks in hard house. theres no room for faffing around with unnecessary bullshit. hard house is about drive. and energy. and going fucking mental. if you want technicality and high musicianship you wont find it here.

thats not to say dance music need always be rigid. alot of psy for example doesnt always have 4 phrases per movement and it is what i would consider 'arsy' to mix partly because of this. but you must DJ psy in a different way to hard house. you cannot leave it in the mix as long. you cannot always make long, seemless transitions. and with ambient psy or downtempo psy you have to mix out of the ambience at the beginning and end of each track because its always possible to beatmatch owing to the wide variety of tempos in this genre. needless to say, if you want to know why hard house is minimal and to a large extent formulaic, go to slinky with some mates, all bomb some mdma and let your inhibitions go. you may still not enjoy it if thats not your cup of tea and fair enough. but hard house is very suitable for that kind of experience and it is very danceable. you only need to see the venues packed to the rafters every weekend to see why slinky hardly plays anything other than hard house and hard trance.

there is an industry behind this that underpins it all. slinky wont play music that doesnt fit the demographic of its current clientelle. and with good reason - hard house pulls in the crowds. it sells drinks. and people are happy to buy them and go mental on a big dancefloor, rushing their head off. its good for the artists. good for the punters. and good for the bars. just the way everyone likes it. unless you arent in on that sort of thing. but no biggie. theres plenty of other specialist music out there that no doubt caters for a specific demographic of listeners with a very specific intention or social situation in mind. one which may be more on your wavelength.

there has always been this business side to art. george romney's portraits mostly form commissions. we just find that his business work has merits of its own. and it doesnt stop him from being a great portrait artist. so does gainborough. so does practically every great artist in history. and there has been specific formulas and rules to representing the human figure in portraiture. its no different now. even with cubism and abstraction - they all flourished into a formal style and it became easy to categorise artists in this way. nothing has changed. but trance is always the brunt of the musical elite. and to be honest, its getting more than a bit annoying because alot of these musical 'elitists' havent really thought the whole thing through - at least not enough to get over their own predjudice.

[jasedee]

My Studio cost me well over AUD$20,000 (roughly 12,000 Euros) and I would certainly put myself in the "project Studio" bracket (ie cheap)

When you compare that to cost of Reason and basic PC it's really not cheap.
Sure...but when you compare my studio cost, to the cost of, say, AIR studios London, then my Studio becomes very, very cheap...

[Juho L]

Sure...but when you compare my studio cost, to the cost of, say, AIR studios London, then my Studio becomes very, very cheap...

But there won't be any point because we are talking about cheap ways of producing music that everyone can afford. Of course you can easily spend hundreds of thousands on a studio, but it's all trivial. It's like saying 10,000? DAW computer is bought with pocket money when compared to the cost of weather super computer.

[Hollowcell]

theres plenty of other specialist music out there that no doubt caters for a specific demographic of listeners with a very specific intention or social situation in mind. one which may be more on your wavelength.

This in itself is one of the reasons the club scene tends to bore me these days. There are demographics that have formed over the years. Alot of freedom has disapeared from the early rave scenes, where in essence there wasn't a demographic to speak of (no fashion, no clicks, no ridgid music genres and no people there because it was "cool").

In around 1990 I got into the rave scene with many mates. We all were into punk and thrash at that time and the first rave we went to had live musicians playing along side DJs (by DJs I mean real DJs which are now days called turntablists). There were all walks of life there - I mean all walks of life. It was great! Complete freedom.

Over the next 5 years however I found the underground nature to start to drop away - it was getting much rarer to see turntablists on the decks, although there were still a few people mixing on 3 or 4 decks getting around. The scene was dying....

I think most scenes tend to go the route of clicky one minded wad in the end. The stereotypes take over making it much more difficult to find the good places - having said that though, they don't stay good for long.

[jasedee]

Sure...but when you compare my studio cost, to the cost of, say, AIR studios London, then my Studio becomes very, very cheap...

But there won't be any point because we are talking about cheap ways of producing music that everyone can afford. Of course you can easily spend hundreds of thousands on a studio, but it's all trivial. It's like saying 10,000? DAW computer is bought with pocket money when compared to the cost of weather super computer.
But this is my point.....when you start blasting the computer music inndustry for being too cheap, and allowing people easier access to make music (even if it is shit music) and then you yourself are part of this, because in all relativity, these cheaper products are going to make up the majority of your studio.....

[Tomer=Trance]

10 years ago you would have to invest 3 times more money to have proper basic tools.

10 years ago i wouldnt be able to build my cut little home studio.

[Juho L]

10 years ago you would have to invest 3 times more money to have proper basic tools.

10 years ago i wouldnt be able to build my cut little home studio.

Yes. This is what I mean, Jasedee. The treshold for releasing utter crap comercially is really low nowadays because of huge amount of amateurs and pocket-size record companies. Finding good stuff amongst those Am-F-G and Am-Em trance tunes is impossible nowadays. Hoho. But seriously it's nice that technology is affordable. I don't mind having quality stuff without a price of a mansion.

Ahh, those were the days when a band would need to spare lots of money just to get a demo recorded. You just couldn't decide "I make a ok sounding demo now", you had to ponder it for a long time and practice hard.

[Tomer=Trance]

i dont consider myself as a proffesional musician,the problem in music buisness is that people who do consider themselvs as pros make crap!

anyone agrees on that?

[jasedee]

Well.....there has always been crap music, and it is up to the individuals to seek out the music that they enjoy and respect.

Also, on one end of that "crap" music is someone who has poured out their creative heart to make that "crap" music.....and people will always have different tastes in music.

[ledge]

Well.....there has always been crap music, and it is up to the individuals to seek out the music that they enjoy and respect.

Also, on one end of that "crap" music is someone who has poured out their creative heart to make that "crap" music.....and people will always have different tastes in music.

I was going to write a big rant saying pretty much this. There has always been crap music and there is still lots of good music.

This thread comes across as really negative. Listen to, and make, music you like, and ignore the stuff you don't.

[Wandering Kid]

i agree more or less with ledge. this thread *is* very negative. almost bitter in places.

anyone who has gotten signed off the back of their tunes is doing something right that im not and they have my respect for that at least.

secondly, there is a big distinction between 'i think thats crap' and 'i dont like that.' a distinction which does not seem to have been made in this thread. im not a particularly big fan of full on psy as a general rule but i acknowledge that the style does have its high points and its good for what it sets out to achieve - getting people fired up on some middle of night stormers.

personally, none of the people here have written any music which ive found especially brilliant or interesting. thats not a failing on your part. thats a failure on my part to connect with the music you make. maybe i have a fixation with hypnotic repetitive dance music. who knows. point is, theres plenty of great music out there that i can connect with. i just had to find it.

when i go shopping on juno records i sift through hundreds of records to find 1 or 2 gems that i just have to have. and that makes them even more of a gem, the fact that they come along so rarely. its not that the other tunes are bad per se. i just dont find them interesting. some other people do. and they are likely to pick out other tunes that they consider gems that i do not. beauty is, moreover, in the eyes of the beholder. the stuff that i like? chances are you think its shit. the stuff you like? chances are i think its boring. or wanky. or whatever. the point is its not shit, boring or wanky. its the outstanding achievement of some dude who writes songs which are of a standard whereby alot of people feel its marketable. and which alot of people are willing to pay money for in order to hear it regularly. or play it others so they can hear it too.

i absolutely do not agree with tomer on this one. i dont like to belittle the achievements of people who are doing things that as of yet, i am not capable of. i find that any music is beautiful and interesting if you approach it form the right angle and on the same wavelength, and it has always been impossible for someone to write a song or paint a picture that is so universal in its appeal that everybody likes it.

i personally think music is better than it has ever been. it is on average, better produced than its ever been. we certainly have more choice than ever before.

the only thing thats changed really is me. my sense of wonder has been dulled with every consecutive 'classic' i hear. and when i started to write this music, i began to understand the illusion which made these songs seem greater than the sum of their parts. in a way i began to see this music in terms of its constituant parts and it lost its magic in a sense. that doesnt make the music any worse than it ever was before.

[Juho L]

Crap has always existed. The increased number of amateur producers and over-eager small record companies has increased the amound of banal music to a totally new level. And like Wandering Kid said, finding gems is really hard and it's really frusturating.

And about getting record contract: I've got deal offers from my FastTracker 2 stuff I've made and it quite well sums up the quality control of the small companies. Getting signed on a bigger company is another story.

[Wandering Kid]

you really misinterpret what i said - those gems i find on juno? those are songs which really strike a chord with me. note: NOT necessarily with anyone else. whats good and what isnt is so subjective i dont bother wasting my time on such definitions.

i absolutely hate elitism. for some reason some people really feel the need to justify their own work and their own taste in music by trampling on other people's. how very very sad.

[Timo]

Music nowadays....

Hmm, anyone here listen to ASOT with AvB? Some of that music is truly mind-blowing.

[Wandering Kid]

i have. and i agree. theres so much music out there that is truly mind blowing. in the right frame of mind. with the right people. in the right place. heck. any music can be good if all those criteria are met.

i love psy not just because of the music (although i love hypnotic droning music as evident in psy either way), the people who i see in psy events are the nicest people you will ever meet. and when its outdoors and the suns coming up and they start playing schpongle and protoculture tunes (oh man - memories of *that* mix of silicon sounds), everyone is smoking pot to slow the comedown and theres just this *electricity* in the air. oh. my. god. and i felt overwhelmed with the coolest people i ever met listening to (in my humble opinion) the coolest tunes ive ever heard. some people think psy is shit. some people make fun of the whole trance thing and i dont really mind that at all - they are entitled to their own opinions i guess. and on KVR its very tongue in cheek so i really dont mind - ill even call it TARNCE! occassionally too for the occassional comedy value. its when, in all seriousness people start to throw their elitist, fat arses around, dictating to me that the music i like is rubbish, that i start to get a little peeved - because i dont think those people have had the experiences i have had with this kind of music. if you had been to an outdoor festival with friends and enjoyed yourself and you have great photos and memories of that event, maybe you too would like trance. maybe that music would connotate or sum up some of those experiences and have a special significance for you as it does for me. maybe thats why some of the kids like hip hop. or drum and bass. or whatever. music that the kids can relate to - they dont even need to try - they *just* *GET IT*. and thats important isnt it? that you can relate to the music you listen to in a way that cannot be summed up in words? or maybe not. who knows.

i wish people wouldnt get up on their soapbox so much and dictate: 'thats shit.' or 'thats not shit.' because really, you are missing a large part of what makes music so amazing - the fact it is sooooo much more than just a bunch of notes in a piano roll, produced by joe engineer. i think some people here have spent a little too much time in the studio and have lost touch with this.

get over yourselves. big record companies? small ones? ive seen both release music i like and dislike. its got nothing to do with smaller record companies having better 'quality control.' it has everything to do with the fact that *YOU* just dont *GET IT* (by which i mean, the particular type of music/scene you dislike so much you need to tell us about it).

and fair enough. you will look elsewhere for music you like and you will find it eventually i guess. just enough with the 'shit music' thing. it really gets on my nerves!

[udenjoe]

I don't think the industry is boring at all. If you are shopping dj records then yes probably. What I have noticed in the last couple years is that djs in my town of 12 million play boring shit.

If you are talking about electronic, you are also talking about most music out there today, there are alot of interesting people there. The taste is up to you. You may or may not like Wolf Eyes ( I don't like them), Pluramon(very guitary but electronic in many ways), Vladislav Delay(one of the best electronic dance producers out there). But these keep me interested enough to find my own way.

I recently got me some Throbbing Gristle. Considering this was made over a decade ago it's still inspiring. Although one must agree there is not much going far beyond the basic 440 based scale systems and etc in most western based 4 square music.

[Wandering Kid]

if you like industrial ala throbbing gristle you should probably check out spk, merzbow and zoviet france. those in particular really show you how far you can push electronic noise. in the case of merzbow there is amazing variety considering he makes all of his 'music' by autonimously cutting up samples and running them through cheap guitar distortion pedals. and even though the movement unofficially died after only 6 years in 1983, industrial has had a lasting effect which has filtered down into the mainstream and influences artists like nine inch nails that incorporate industrial noise into a more commercial kind of sound. most industrial elistists wouldnt consider nin industrial (or even post industrial for that matter, even though it is). genesis would probably agree with that. but hes an asshole. he always was an elitist asshole in throbbing gristle. and he probably still is now. didnt really expect that kind of predictable reaction from someone who vomitted on the floor of the ICA and then ate it in the name of art.

the same thing happens in emo which is just as elitist. if not more so than industrial. several emo bands actually hated being called emo which kind of shows you this kind of resistance to the expectations of their listeners. im tired of the good versus the crap talk. tired of the original. and the imitators kind of logic. its bullshit. people make music the only way they know how. you either connect with it. or you dont. you will never know truly awful music until you listen to noisy industrial crap. or 'badly recorded in a basement using a cheap pc microphone' emo record by julia or indian summer. and even then you cant really think of it as crap because its antithetical to music. its anti music. so thinking of it in terms of being music will always lead to disappointment. thats not what its trying to be. thats what its partly against.

and similarly theres a kind of energy in other types of music but increasingly you have to be in a very specific frame of mind to appreciate the subtleties of the form. elitism is for chumps.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Come on.....put away your digital software crap and make some real music with some Prophet 5's and Jupiter 8's will ya :lol:

DS

[Juho L]

Come on.....put away your digital software crap and make some real music with some Prophet 5's and Jupiter 8's will ya :lol:

I'm having nightmares of Jupiter 8 and Oberheim saw stabs.