Adding compressor to mixer...

[AjmaGard]

Does anyone know how I can plug a two-channel compressor to my Behringer MX802A such that I can use one compressor-channel for kick, and the other for bass?

I can only seem to get everything going to one channel! Do I need a Y-cable or something.

I actually thought that I could use Aux1 for one channel and Aux2 for the other, but it doesn't seem to work that way :oops:

Any suggestions?

Thx

[jasedee]

Hi,

Traditionally, when using a compressor (Dynamics processor), the mixing desks 'insert points' are used. This is preferential to using the Aux sends (Which are used for reverbs/delays etc) because when using an insert point, the ENTIRE signal is sent to the device (using a Y-Lead) and then returned to the desk. When using the aux sends, only a PORTION of the signal is tapped off to the external reverb/delay, and then the return is "Mixed" with the original "Dry" signal.

When using FX such as compressors and EQ, you want the WHOLE signal to be passed to the FX, and then returned, using the Insert points on the desk. You do NOT want to use the aux sends for dynamics processing such as this.

Unfortunately for you, the Behringer mixing desk you have does NOT have Insert points. It doesnt even have DIRECT outs for the individual mono channels, which you would have been able to use to send the signal to the compressor, and then onto your computer.

DONT USE YOUR AUX SENDS FOR YOUR COMPRESSOR! Seriously.....

Sorry...just had to ram that point home. Now, what you can do is this. For your signal in channel 1, pan it HARD LEFT. For your signal in channel 2, pan it HARD RIGHT. Take you main outputs from the desk, and send then to the inputs on your compressor. Then, take the outputs from your compressor, and send them to 2 seperate inputs on your soundcard.

This will allow you to use the compressor across both channels, independantly.

But.....I suggest getting a new desk, with Direct outs for all mono channels, which also act is your insert points. I can recommend the Mackie VLZ1202 PRO. It will be a great little investment.

Good luck!

[AjmaGard]

Thanks for your reply :)
Well, I think I am sending the whole signal from one of my channels. I have both a pre and post-fader aux. I guess when using the prefade aux, the whole signal is send (I turn the knob all the way down), and it is not mixed with the dry signal. So the compressor is actually doing its job. It's just doing it for both the kick and the bass on the same channel. I can't really do the thing with other inputs on my soundcard, since this is intended for live usage, and I don't use computers for that at all :?

[jasedee]

regardless of whether the aux is pre/post fader, it is still only sending a portion of the signal to the compressor.....if you can still hear your signal whilst sending it via aux and not plugging into anything, then you are NOT sending the whole signal through....trust me here dude.

AUX sends for reverbs/delays etc

Insert points for dynamics processors (ie comp/limiters/ EQ)

Pre fader means that the send wont be affected by movements of your fader, which is usefull for monitor sends

Post Fader means that the send WILL be affected by movements of your fader, which is usefull for FX sends.

Seriously, trust me here. This is not me just taking wild guesses....Your compressor is ONLY receiving a PORTION of the signal, and thus is NOT compressing the whole signal, which means it is not doing its job.

Where are the outputs of your compressor coming back to??? The Aux returns??? try turning the aux return master down all the way, so it is OFF. Do you still hear the original signal on channel 1????

Even if the send is turned all the way, it is STILL only a portion of the signal being sent.

Good luck...

http://homerecording.about.com/library/graphics/parallel.gif

[AjmaGard]

When I turn the aux returns down, I don't hear anything at all... :?

[jasedee]

When I turn the aux returns down, I don't hear anything at all... :?
Is your channel fader up????

Seems strange, as the channel is routed to the stereo buss regardless of what the aux sends/returns are doing

[AjmaGard]

Hmmm, I solved it by putting the compressor between my virus and the mixer channel... Not the best sollution, but it gets the job done until I get my hands on a mixer with inserts :)
Thank God for more than one output :D

Thanks for trying to help me and explaining how to add effects to my mixer :)

[Hollowcell]

Just had to say, nice clear explanation Jase.

I do use inserts for things like valve-pres and I would use them for an outboard Compressor too (if I had one :cry: ).

But....

I think you can send a signal at 100% through the sends bus though. To mimick this in Cubase place an effect on a channel pre-fader, then turn the fader completely down untill you hear nothing - from here turn the send up (with the fader still down) - the signal is completely wet.

You are studying about this stuff at school Jase, and I'm no expert, but it really does sound the same on my desk. There isn't any dry signal in the mix at all if I run pre-fader (with the slider down) and the send knob at full.

I mainly was using inserts, because I need free sends busses on my desk.

[AjmaGard]

Great, I guess I wasn't a total idiot anway then :)

Well, even though the signal is totally wet, I can't use the AUX procedure anyway. Since only one of my Aux is prefader, it will always route the signal to the same channel on the compressor, which makes it a bit hard to use sidechaining :) If I send from aux2, the signal will indeed be mixed since this is post-fader, and then the wet signal is mixed with the dry.

Does anyone know what a 8-10-channel (4-6 monochannels) mixer with insert-points costs these days (both new and used)?

[jasedee]

Just had to say, nice clear explanation Jase.
You are studying about this stuff at school Jase, and I'm no expert, but it really does sound the same on my desk. There isn't any dry signal in the mix at all if I run pre-fader (with the slider down) and the send knob at full.
Well....when using the aux PRE-Fader, any movements of the channel fader you make will NOT affect the send amount, but will still be routed normally to the mix bus. If you have this fader down, obviously the 'dry' signal is not being sent to the mix bus, and you will only be monitoring your aux return, which will be a tapped off portion of the original signal. The thing is, you are not sending the signal through the compressor, only a selected amount/ copy of it...so ultimately the compressor is not being used to it's full potential.....

I guess I too am a little sketchy on the exact technical reasons, as I am no pro (yet!), still only a student.....And yes, I too may be completely wrong about this. Can somebody out there confirm/elaborate?????

The Mackie desks are quite reasonanly priced Ajmagard....Im sure you could pick up a S/H 1202VLZ Pro quite cheaply.....

Anyways, hope I wasnt too rude or pigheaded with my explanations before. I dont understand alot of it either....

Cheers!

[Hollowcell]

The thing is, you are not sending the signal through the compressor, only a selected amount/ copy of it...so ultimately the compressor is not being used to it's full potential.....


It could be one for the spec book of the particular desks in question.

When I run pre-fader I will run the send out at 100% on the chosen channel (sometimes having the FX outputs back onto another seperate channel rather than using the return bus). Would this 100% send value be lesser than the signal sent using an insert? Like I said that could vary depending on the desk (internal bus specs and stuff - way over my head really). Mmmm, have to look into that I rekon.

Still though, I do use the inserts where possible, but maybe I shouldn't be using the pre-fader send option as a quick fix?!

Anyways, hope I wasnt too rude or pigheaded with my explanations before. I dont understand alot of it either....

Na, no way Jase. You didn't come accross rude I rekon.

Maybe I'll talk to a mate in Ausi who has been producing bands occasionaly. He knows the ins and outs of desk set-ups really well (hehe, like my pun?).

[jasedee]

Maybe I'll talk to a mate in Ausi who has been producing bands occasionaly. He knows the ins and outs of desk set-ups really well (hehe, like my pun?).
And I will ask my lecturer........It will have alot to do with voltages and current I suspect, as does most of this audio stuff....

I think the thing is, although you are turning the aux send rotary 100%, the original signal is still being passed to the mix bus, through the fader. If you were using the inserts, that original signal would be diverted to the compressor, then back into the desk......and I think this is a standard setup regardless which manufacturer makes the desk.....

Interesting stuff.......

[Hollowcell]

And I will ask my lecturer........It will have alot to do with voltages and current I suspect, as does most of this audio stuff....

Great. Interesting thread this one!

I think the thing is, although you are turning the aux send rotary 100%, the original signal is still being passed to the mix bus, through the fader. If you were using the inserts, that original signal would be diverted to the compressor, then back into the desk......and I think this is a standard setup regardless which manufacturer makes the desk.....

Yeh that's what I meant by "could be something for the spec book" Maybe different manufacturers have different spec regarding the send busses.

Well...Let us know how you go with it Jase. Hopefully the lecturer doesn't blow up like last time hey. :wink:

[AjmaGard]

I think the thing is, although you are turning the aux send rotary 100%, the original signal is still being passed to the mix bus, through the fader

Yes, but when you use the pre-fader aux at 100%, you can turn you fader all the way down to 0% and thereby only get the wet signal in through the aux-return (or another channel if you please). Then you will have removed the dry signal, that normally is routed through the fader (which is at 0 and nothing is getting through). The only thing you will hear is the signal that is passed to the aux-sends, further to the compressor and back through the aux-returns. If you turn down both aux-send and the fader, you get no sound at all. But I might agree with hollowcell that this could be desk-specific.

You can try to recreate it on you desk to see if it holds :)

Anyways, hope I wasnt too rude or pigheaded with my explanations before

Nah, never even came close :)

[jasedee]

Yes, but when you use the pre-fader aux at 100%, you can turn you fader all the way down to 0% and thereby only get the wet signal in through the aux-return (or another channel if you please). Then you will have removed the dry signal, that normally is routed through the fader (which is at 0 and nothing is getting through). The only thing you will hear is the signal that is passed to the aux-sends
Yeah....I know this is true, but it is still not the whole/entire/original signal that gets sent to the compressor. It is a tapped off portion...I think.

Who knows if really this makes a huge difference??? Im not 100% sure....All I can know for sure is how it is done traditionally, by the "Pro's".......I am all for tradition, if it is logical, and I have faith that if it was better to use a compressor through the aux sends, then this is what I wouldve been taught, and this is how the professionals would do it too....

I really would like to find a better technical explanation though, even though I may not understand it fully...

[Juho L]

Yeah....I know this is true, but it is still not the whole/entire/original signal that gets sent to the compressor. It is a tapped off portion...I think.

Why should it be tapped off? An aux send is just a copy of the original signal which level is controlled by potentiometer. If one's mixer would have a some sort of constant filter on the AUX send, I'd ditch that mixer into a river. The whole idea of an AUX send is that it replicates the signal. There would be no point if it would get filtered or something. I've seen few mixer schematics and there are no bloody filters on AUX sends.

There are no difference in the result if you compress by a pre-fader AUX or by an insert channel. Of course some people might hear a difference (the same kind of difference that you hear when you change the case of your hifi stereo from black to red).

[jasedee]

Some things that still bother me though,

Why dont studio's just use the aux sends for any dynamic processing then? Why do we even have insert points at all?? Why is it, in every pro studio in the world, that when using a compressor they use the insert points, and not the aux sends?

I dont buy into the argument that using a pre-fade aux send is identical to using an insert point.

For a start, you are sending the signal through an added set of circuitry, which will cause degradation to the signal. When using the pre-fader aux send, the signal goes through the EQ circuitry as well, before going out to the compressor/FX device. Using the insert points for dynamics processing is a much purer path for the audio signal.

I will find out for sure on monday, from someone who has been workin as a professional engineer for the majority of his life, who has a background in electronics, and whom I think we can trust to deliver us a verdict on this.

Very interesting stuff.......I have just been flicking through the signal flow diagrams for my Mackie 1402VLZ Pro, and my Studer 169, as well as schematics showing just how much "extra" shit you will be sending your signal through if you do use the aux sends.

I may also do some 'real' tests, not just writing down stuff I 'think' is correct....Yay, I get to play with my DBX compressor!

:)

[Juho L]

Why dont studio's just use the aux sends for any dynamic processing then? Why do we even have insert points at all?? Why is it, in every pro studio in the world, that when using a compressor they use the insert points, and not the aux sends?

This is obvious! When you have a compressor in insert, then you can add send AUX FX on the compressed signal without wasting additional tracks.

I dont buy into the argument that using a pre-fade aux send is identical to using an insert point.

It's not identical. With sends you'll have to sacrifice additional track(s) for the compressed signal. With insert compressing the additional track is not needed at all. But the sound is exactly the same because AUX's and inserts are only routings. They don't do anything with the sound.

For a start, you are sending the signal through an added set of circuitry, which will cause degradation to the signal.

The circuit structure of an AUX send is so simple that you could stack even ten of those things in a chain wihtout hearing any additional noise or distortion (this applies even for the cheap mixers). There's only few silly resistors and an opamps.

When using the pre-fader aux send, the signal goes through the EQ circuitry as well, before going out to the compressor/FX device. Using the insert points for dynamics processing is a much purer path for the audio signal.

This depends on the structure of the EQ. Usually when on "clean" setting the frequency response of the input is almost totally unaffected, which means you'll "hear" the difference with a bode plotter. And even if the EQ affects the signal it also does affect the insert compressed signal and thus the difference is really trivial.

I will find out for sure on monday, from someone who has been workin as a professional engineer for the majority of his life, who has a background in electronics, and whom I think we can trust to deliver us a verdict on this.

Yup. You'll do that. I'll bet that there indeed is a difference, but the difference is inaudible.

Very interesting stuff.......I have just been flicking through the signal flow diagrams for my Mackie 1402VLZ Pro, and my Studer 169, as well as schematics showing just how much "extra" shit you will be sending your signal through if you do use the aux sends.

The stuff you refer to is actually very basic components. As I said the structure of AUX-busses is very simple and on modern mixers the signal won't get audibly distorted or anything.

[Hollowcell]

This has turned into one of the more interesting threads for sure.

I really am looking forward to what some Techs say about this. Please let us know when you find out Jase.

Anyway, with my little setup I still have to use the Aux sends pre-fader for some things, but knowing in more detail about it will be nice.

[jasedee]

You know....."silly things" like resistors make all the difference.

You look at a really high end, beautiful sounding console, and the "Silly" resistors they use cost about 10 or 20 times more than the ones you would find in a Behringer/Mackie mixer. And as far as op-amps goes (chips), these things are the most horrible sounding shit you could ever hope to run a signal through. You think about all the analogue "warmth" Vs. Digital "coldness" arguments and most of the time the analogue gear they are talking about DONT use chips/op-amps, they are running through transformers and high quality capacitors/resistors etc....or tubes!

You can pay $100 for a behringer parametric EQ, full of op-amps.....and then, you could pay $10,000 for a Manley MASSIVE PASSIVE, full of beautiful circuitry made up of transformers and other high quality parts (NOT op-amps/chips) and these things are like the best sounding bit of gear you will ever come across.....you dont even need to actually use the EQ, just run your signal through it and it comes out the other end sounding "Better".......

The parts inside your mixer 100% determines the sound quality that comes out the other end. This is why shit desks sound shit, and Neve desks sound fuckin awesome!

Also, think about in Live sound, where the engineers will often use the VCA groups for sending the drum channels, because they dont want to pass their signals through another set of fader circuitry, as it will degrade the signal more so than a VCA circuitry would.....This is a normal procedure in Live sound, and one which translates into the studio world as well. Engineers will often try to record using the purest signal path, the one that doesnt pass through a whole bunch of extra circuitry, the simplest route. On it's own it may not make a lot of difference, but collectively.....?????

Gosh I wish I had more knowledge of electronics......

[Juho L]

You look at a really high end, beautiful sounding console, and the "Silly" resistors they use cost about 10 or 20 times more than the ones you would find in a Behringer/Mackie mixer. And as far as op-amps goes (chips), these things are the most horrible sounding shit you could ever hope to run a signal through. You think about all the analogue "warmth" Vs. Digital "coldness" arguments and most of the time the analogue gear they are talking about DONT use chips/op-amps, they are running through transformers and high quality capacitors/resistors etc....or tubes!

You know, you can use the high quality components with opamps too. And of course crappy opamps sounds crappy, but keep in mind that an opamp is the saviour of analogue electronics. An opamp is a very good component because it has very neutral frequency respones, really low noise and huge output impedance. In addition to that it's bloody simple to use because most of the components are inside the IC so the use of "noisy" external components is in minimum and it's ridicilously cheap die the IC structure. Even an opamp is an IC, it's still has the analog sound. There's always place for opamps and the "vintage" bulk components. They excell eachother in various areas. The strenght of an opamp is the value/quality rate. Choosing between vintage components and opamps is like choosing between a Rolls Royce for a million or a BMW for a 20 euros.

You can pay $100 for a behringer parametric EQ, full of op-amps.....and then, you could pay $10,000 for a Manley MASSIVE PASSIVE, full of beautiful circuitry made up of transformers and other high quality parts (NOT op-amps/chips) and these things are like the best sounding bit of gear you will ever come across.....you dont even need to actually use the EQ, just run your signal through it and it comes out the other end sounding "Better".......

The one reason why to use opamps is the price (although it's quite trivial to compare crappy Behringer products to highend hifi gear, ?hih). Of course the sound is lovely vintage on the "traditional" circuit but the price difference is huge! Opamps allowed a production of nice analog gear with really low price. For example Korg MS-series sound very nice, even they are constructed from "the most horrible sounding shit you could ever hope to run a signal through". I start to smell analog purism here. Tshihihi.

The parts inside your mixer 100% determines the sound quality that comes out the other end. This is why shit desks sound shit, and Neve desks sound fuckin awesome!

That's naturally true. Cheap isn't good. But even Neve sounds incredible, it doesn't mean Soundcrafts and Mackies would be shit.

Also, think about in Live sound, where the engineers will often use the VCA groups for sending the drum channels, because they dont want to pass their signals through another set of fader circuitry, as it will degrade the signal more so than a VCA circuitry would.....This is a normal procedure in Live sound, and one which translates into the studio world as well. Engineers will often try to record using the purest signal path, the one that doesnt pass through a whole bunch of extra circuitry, the simplest route. On it's own it may not make a lot of difference, but collectively.....?????

It really depends on the gear used. Of course on paper the difference exists. If you use a noisy and distorting mixer then you'll end up having a bad sound when you run the signal through channels multiple times. But if you have a good mixer then avoiding faders at all cost might be a bit paranoid.

That live thing you mentioned is making me wonder... I'd understand that on a studio, but why they do that on a live setup? Usually the live situation is not even near hifi which means you really can't tell the difference between a single fader signal or 32 fader signal because the listening situation has loads of background noise from the fellow audience, noise from the guitar/bass amps & PA's and high power PA's are not-very-high-fidelity (they just concentrate on being loud).

Gosh I wish I had more knowledge of electronics......

Why don't you study? Electronics is simple. It's not harder than basic physics.

[Juho L]

This has turned into one of the more interesting threads for sure.

Indeed.

I really am looking forward to what some Techs say about this. Please let us know when you find out Jase.

Anyway, with my little setup I still have to use the Aux sends pre-fader for some things, but knowing in more detail about it will be nice.

Yes. Let's see what's the truth out there.

[jasedee]

That live thing you mentioned is making me wonder... I'd understand that on a studio, but why they do that on a live setup? Usually the live situation is not even near hifi which means you really can't tell the difference between a single fader signal or 32 fader signal because the listening situation has loads of background noise from the fellow audience, noise from the guitar/bass amps & PA's and high power PA's are not-very-high-fidelity (they just concentrate on being loud).
You make a good point....We were learning some general info about Live Sound recently, and on some of the better Live consoles, you have the option to send the fader to one of a number of VCA masters, instead of using the normal subgroups. The reasoning is that there will be less signal degradation using VCA faders, and the signal does not have to pass through additional subgroup circuitry, and I guess the last thing you want in a live situation is for you signal to start to turn to shit, cos as they say

"If you sound like shit, you will sound like amplified shit through the PA"

I thought that was a nice saying.........

I guess I am being influenced by a particular someone, who you could say is a bit of an audio "Snob"........great guy but he sure does like his audio hi-end and expensive! I guess when you have had the luxury of using the best, the other stuff doesnt sound so great. And I am not yet at that point, so I guess I shouldnt have such an attitiude about Project studio gear etc. I cant complain about digital, and affordible analogue, cos I am without a studio if I start to get snobby!

Im not afraid to admit I own behringer gear ;) hehehe......

[jasedee]

OK........

I had a brief chat to my lecturer, and the answer is kind of a combination of what we have both been saying.

He started off by asking me why on earth I would use a compressor through an aux send, but I assured him that all I wanted to know, was the differences on how the two different busses work, regardless of the obvious reason why you would use one in preference to another....

Basically he said, an insert send is not really a send, it is like an output, or a break in the signal path, with a corresponding input before the EQ.

An aux send takes a split of the signal, without breaking the signal path, and depending on the aux master, the aux send could be sending even more than 100% of the original signal.

He also went on to say that if you were using a compressor via an aux send, returning it to a channel would be a better option so you had the choice of EQ'ing the return. Ultimately, you can use the aux send to feed a compressor, but for obvious reasons it is not the standard practice.

I didnt get any technical response, as we were in a lecture, and we try to keep focused on the current subject, but the answer seemed to be yes, you CAN use the aux send to feed a compressor, but you SHOULD be using the insert points.

Apologies to all I doubted! I dont mind admitting I was wrong :oops:

Still searching for the technical explanations......One I can think of is that the send is mixed with all of the other sends too, and then through the aux master, as well as back through another amplifier, and EQ etc....so all the while adding noise/distortions of the original sound etc..

But we've been through all that already.....

[Juho L]

Yup. So it seems that everybody was righ a little bit.

[Hollowcell]

That's great that this chapter of my life can be layed to rest. One day I'll have enough cash to grab a nice desk with heaps of sub-outs, sends and inserts, but until that day I'll have to go for the pre-fader option.

Thanks heaps for finding out Jase.

[jasedee]

That's great that this chapter of my life can be layed to rest.
such a drama queen!

I guess I learned that just because a method is traditional, it is not necessarily the ONLY way, and there are always options!

Cheers!

Jase

[Hollowcell]

That's great that this chapter of my life can be layed to rest.
such a drama queen!


Hehehe, you like that one did ya?

This was a splinter in mind, that honestly if not removed could have (probably would have) caused major mental traumer!

Much like the Normalizing thread that was never resolved. Everytime I get taken to the police station for punching my neighbour in the face I say "The Normalizing thread was the cause of this violence". Then I give them the link to that thread and they let me go.

Dramatic enough for you Jase? :wink: :lol:

[AjmaGard]

Much like the Normalizing thread that was never resolved. Everytime I get taken to the police station for punching my neighbour in the face I say "The Normalizing thread was the cause of this violence". Then I give them the link to that thread and they let me go.

Dramatic enough for you Jase? :wink: :lol:

Please post a link to this thread :)

And thanks for all the replies, all I ever wanted was to find out how to connect my compressor, and I found out of this: AUX: Sometimes BAD, Inserts: GOOD :D :D

[jasedee]

Much like the Normalizing thread that was never resolved.
Was that a thread I was involved in????? Oh yeah....it is coming back to me now!

We should pick that one up again.......Ummm....but I cant rely on the infinite wisdom of my lecturer anymore. He is off on a spiritual journey. He is following the Buddha trail and recording the harmonic chanting monks of tibet (etc) with a $20,000 portable rig......how cool is that?

So yeah, Normalizing huh? Well, maybe best to let sleeping dogs rest?

:)

[jasedee]

Normalizing....Good or bad? (http://www.sunesha.nu/virusforum/viewtopic.php?t=2310)

[jasedee]

Another Aux thread... (http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum1/HTML/022245.html)