Production Project III [Finished-MASTER]

[jasedee]

Hello all,

I have just done a 'rough mix' of a song that I recorded as part of my Production Project for school, and was hoping to get some feedback from you all.

LadyPeroxide-Mandy (http://stickychicken.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/lp_mandymaster.mp3)

The band recorded were called "Lady Peroxide" and are JMC students too.

The song was recorded using a Digi 001 (2 x Preamps), Behringer ADA8000 preamps (into the Digi 001 via ADAT)

Neumann, shure, sennheiser mics were used.....All FX added via VST Plug-ins, mixed entirely within Cubase SX, poorly mastered by me using Spark XL

Any feedback on mixing/processing will be greatly appreciated!!! please be honest, I wont cry.....

Cheers,

Jase

[Tomer=Trance]

i think it sounds excelent.
recording is good
mixing is good all tho i would have prosses the snare drum with some reverb and then squash it.
but thats just my personal taste
i like to mess around with drums.
vocal sounds good
guitars sounds good.

nothing accualy bad to say about it and theres no reason why there should be any :wink:
nice work...

[Juho L]

Tomer, the man of wooden ears. Hoho.

Guitars lack balls. It's like Type-O-Negative sound with even less balls. The guitars are also too much on the background. Drums are too loud. Everything seems to lack presence. Background vocals would be better when panned to the far sides to get it sound wider (same goes for guitars).

What I would change:

1. More balls on the guitars. Seems like there's some kind of weird chorus on the guitars.
2. Double the guitars (or quadruple, we need a guitar wall, not a puny whine on the background) and pan the doublings on opposite channels to get it sound wide.
3. Background vocals need extreme panning (more wideness). Also there were weird timing problems on the background vocals.
4. More vocal doublings especially on the chorus to get a clear verse-chorus division (even more wideness).
5. Drums are too loud.
6. Probably some room verb would help to get some presence on the mix. Now it sounds not-so-good.
7. Add a distortion to bass channel send. A light crunch on the distortion and mix the distorted bass channel just barely audible. That way the bass stays as bass but gains clearance. You hear better what the bassist plays.

[Tomer=Trance]

you listened to this on a crapy hi fi?
because i did so...
thats the comment i can give on thos.
listening on a higher volume then yesturday the drums do sound too loud.

[jasedee]

I definately agree with the drums.....I was experimenting with some sounds I heard from the "Queens of the Stoneage" album, where it is mainly kick/snare and VERY dry.....but maybe doesnt suit the song.

Guitars: A source of frustration for me, as I dont think we tracked a 'nice' guitar sound. There are 2 different tones here, one is darker, and panned mainly in the left channel, the other is 'brighter' and panned mostly in the right channel. Also, after doing some "comparison" listening to other songs of similar style, I have to agree with the guitars being too low in the mix. This is guitar music, and they are not present enough.

Bass: I agree, needs a bit of distortion to fill in those low's, where the distorted guitars dont reach.

Vocals: I actually cut out some of the vocal doubling/harmonies during the verse's....maybe I need to cut out more, and then bring them in hard during the chorus. I will experiment with panning.....

Cheers for the feedback, especially Juho, for NOT holding back! This is what I need, constructive (Harsh) criticism.....

Thanks again!

[Juho L]

you listened to this on a crapy hi fi?

I did listen with crappy headphones. Does that apply?

because i did so...

The problems on the mixing & mastering are clearly audible even on a poor system. It just isn't on balance at all.

I was experimenting with some sounds I heard from the "Queens of the Stoneage" album, where it is mainly kick/snare and VERY dry.....but maybe doesnt suit the song.

Actually QotS came up to my mind when listening to this. On QotS the guitar sounds are rougher than on other records. It's weird heavy distortion still maintaining the timbre of the guitar. Pretty good production job on that record.

[Tomer=Trance]

[quote=Tomer=Trance]you listened to this on a crapy hi fi?

I did listen with crappy headphones. Does that apply?

because i did so...

ho yes it does :D

[jasedee]

OK

I have taken note of some suggestions and made some changes....

If you have the time or inclination, please take a listen and feel free to bombard me with more criticisms......

One thing, I think maybe the guitars are too loud now? And maybe the drums need to come up during the parts where the guitars cut in (during the verse)

Please restrict all comments to the 'MIX' ie panning/balance/ use of FX and dynamics processing, levels etc.

The recording process has finished so I cant change things like 'type of distortion used' etc

Thanks!!!!!

Jase

P.S I have applied Multi-band compression to entire mix.

[Juho L]

One thing, I think maybe the guitars are too loud now? And maybe the drums need to come up during the parts where the guitars cut in (during the verse)

Much better now. Now it seems that the drums lost some punch. You should try out something innovatinve on the drums. You could try that distortion on send channel(tm) trick on the kick & snare + set the overhead a bit louder. It could bring some roughness on the track. I'm not sure did you added the distortion to the bass, but if you did just a little bit more wouldn't hurt. A gritty soundscape fits well on this track and a growling dostprted bass fits fine with this. By the way why the bass sounds like it's a sub bass?

Solo guitar a bit louder. Vocals sound pretty good now althought they could be a bit wider on the chorus.

[jasedee]

Much better now. Now it seems that the drums lost some punch.
Cheers! Yeah I know, the drums get a little lost now.....I will experiment
I'm not sure did you added the distortion to the bass, but if you did just a little bit more wouldn't hurt.By the way why the bass sounds like it's a sub bass?
Yeah, I did run the bass track through my bass POD on a real dirty fuzz distortion preset, I will bring it up a little. I agree with the 'sub' comment, the bass need more form, more character......
Solo guitar a bit louder. Vocals sound pretty good now althought they could be a bit wider on the chorus.
Im actually thinking of starting from scratch.....I think I can do better if I take my time and 'listen' carefully. I think this mix is too rushed. I had to compromise, as with the processing I want to do, I had to mix the song in sections, and then bounce each section to stereo, then move onto the next section, and I think I created more problems by trying to conserve my CPU power cos I was running too many plug-ins.

Oh, I wish I had some UAD-1 or Powercore action!

Cheers for the feedback!

[jasedee]

Hi all......

I have remixed the track, and have updated the link in the first post:

LadyPeroxide-Mandy (http://stickychicken.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/lp_mandymaster.mp3)

This is still a "Rough" mix, and probably needs a little more tweaking, I still havent done the 'multiple listening environment' test, and after listening closely, the vocals may be a little loud. I am handing in the project on friday, so would appreciate if anyone can be bothered taking a listen and giving some feedback/criticisms....

This mix was done with my new monitoring setup, which I think helped alot.

Cheers!

[Juho L]

Let's see again. There's something really wrong with this mix. Too loud bass maybe? And why the bass sounds like a subbass. It seems to be made with Virus. Doesn't fit there at all. Drums are too back. Mixing drums is the trickiest part. If they are too back the mix sounds itty-bitty and if they are too loud the whole mix sounds like a drum demonstration. I'd suggest some heavy compression on kick and snare and EQ the drum tracks. Also add EQ to the bass and kick to get clearer mix.

[Hollowcell]

Listening now. Hope I have the latest one though Jase (I downloaded it last Thursday).

I won't comment too much on the song itself, because I'm guessing your work was the recording side more than the track itself.

Drums - Not bad. I'd agree with Juho with adding a bit more compression on the kick. The snare could do with a bit more "punch", but it sat quite well for me. I really like the high-end of the drums - no probs at all here.

Guitars - Again pretty good, but not the strength I was hoping for. I read earlier there was a sugestion about doubling. Did you try that? (I could be listening to an old mix though :cry: ). They more boost on this mix anyway. Solo needs to be more forward.

Bass - Doesn't seem to bad actually. Maybe a little back for me though. A little more Distortion may do the trick.

Vocals - The vocals sound nice. I'd like the chorus brought up front a bit though. Also the agressive lines could do with a boost too "your fuckin everything" should be "YOUR FUCKIN EVERYTHING"...Maybe by adding some width on these aggressive parts you would achieve this.

Sounds pretty good though Jase. All recorded at your place?

By the way....If I am listening to an old mix please ignore this whole post! Hehehe :wink:

[Juho L]

Bass - Doesn't seem to bad actually. Maybe a little back for me though. A little more Distortion may do the trick.

Ewww! It's already eating everything!

Vocals - The vocals sound nice. I'd like the chorus brought up front a bit though. Also the agressive lines could do with a boost too "your fuckin everything" should be "YOUR FUCKIN EVERYTHING"...Maybe by adding some width on these aggressive parts you would achieve this.

I say that distortion is the key here. Little bit distortion here and littlebit distortion there. Layer distortions to keep it clear. This is just too kind mix to work. We need distortion!

[Blank]

To me the main vocals seem way too loud and upfront...they should be upfront but they drowned everything else out...

peace
Blank

[Juho L]

I say that distortion is the key here. Little bit distortion here and littlebit distortion there. Layer distortions to keep it clear. This is just too kind mix to work. We need distortion!

Just remembered one tip. Juho's foolish tips part 2:

Duplicate the vocal tracks. Then add really heavy compression on the duplicate. Really squash it like there would be no tomorrow. Then just add slight compression on the original track. Then you can get a good loud vocal track wihtout totally killing the dynamics by mixing the squashed vocals on the background.

[jasedee]

Thanks for all the feedback!

*Too much bass - I agree.....I ran the mix through a Multi-band compressor and was a little "trigger happy" on the bottom end. This could account for the "Virus-Sub" too.....

*Vocals too loud - yep......I agree too! They need to sit on top, without being too over-bearing. I will try Juho's compression trick.

*Vocals too wimpy - Yup....I think his voice is a little "thin", and the mic we used to record didnt compliment his voice. I will try some EQ or tape/tube distortion??

*Drums too weak - Hmmm....they do get lost a little. I will try some EQ/Compression to pull them up a bit.

*Bass Distortion - There is some there...added with my Bass POD, but in the parts where there is only a bass lick and no other instruments, I have taken out the distorted bass part......it gets a little lost with the distortion of the guitars, so you cant really hear it, though it does fill in the low-end distortion where the guitars dont quite reach. I will bring it up a little more.

HollowCell - Recorded at school on a Digi-001 with Behringer ADA8000 preamps, no outboard/plug-ins during recording, and recorded using an old PC and NS10's......oh yeah, and crappy headphones too! You can hear the click track at the end of the song GODDAMMIT~~~

Thanks again everyone! Appreciate the honesty......:)

[jasedee]

By the way....If I am listening to an old mix please ignore this whole post! Hehehe :wink:
I think you are listening to an old mix....

(I downloaded it last Thursday)
Yep...definately an old mix. This new one is VERY different to the old one.....

[Juho L]

*Too much bass - I agree.....I ran the mix through a Multi-band compressor and was a little "trigger happy" on the bottom end. This could account for the "Virus-Sub" too.....

Take easy with the MBC or the mix sounds like crap. I usually don't even touch the band specific gain section of the MBC unless I really, really, really have to. Maybe some really minor settings but not heavy differences. If the mix lacks bass I don't start to add bass gain on the MBC like a madman. Instead I'll bring up the bass and kick on the mix and make a new mixdown. The general rule is that the less you'll have to EQ the mixdown the better. We Finns have a saying: "Can't make a chocolade candy out of shit", which means there is no kind of mastering tool that could save a bad mix. So first get your mix right and take it easy with the mastering process.

*Vocals too wimpy - Yup....I think his voice is a little "thin", and the mic we used to record didnt compliment his voice. I will try some EQ or tape/tube distortion??

Analog tape recording is great in this aspect. For example listening to some vintage Hendrix tapes the screams that go distorted sound just brilliant. Can't do that nowadays... *sigh* But you should really try that distortion layering for other channels also than only to bass track. It's a very good trick and can do wonders to your mix. With that layering you'll get the crunch but also maintain the clarity.

*Bass Distortion - There is some there...added with my Bass POD, but in the parts where there is only a bass lick and no other instruments, I have taken out the distorted bass part......it gets a little lost with the distortion of the guitars, so you cant really hear it, though it does fill in the low-end distortion where the guitars dont quite reach. I will bring it up a little more.

You'll definetly need to add some distortion on the bass. Now it really sounds like a subbass. You could also try to add some middle with EQ to get some punch on that sound.

[Hollowcell]

Yep...definately an old mix. This new one is VERY different to the old one.....

OK, I'll be on the cable again tomorrow to DL the newest one. :wink:

[jasedee]

OK, I'll be on the cable again tomorrow to DL the newest one. :wink:
Awesome!

Due date is Friday 22nd....so I have tomorrow all day for last minute adjustments and fine tuning before handing in for assessment! Scary...

[jasedee]

Analog tape recording is great in this aspect. For example listening to some vintage Hendrix tapes the screams that go distorted sound just brilliant.
Love those even harmonics!

Can't do that nowadays...
Well.....there are still analogue machines out there that will add those gorgeous 2nd and 4th harmonic distortion. My Studer console for one, which is largely Transformer based (As opposed to Chip-based) and with it's baxandall EQ, with smoother, more natural sounding filter slopes than your typical Low/High shelves....Also see Manley's MASSIVE PASSIVE!

There are other hardware unit's that replicate quite faithfully analogue tape distortion, tube, transformers etc......See Cranesong HEDD (http://www.cranesong.com/hedd192.html)

And then we are getting ever closer with plug-ins....Magneto comes to mind, which can simulate tape saturation without the added hiss.

Dont give up just yet Juho! Digital will redeem itself.....

[Juho L]

Well.....there are still analogue machines out there that will add those gorgeous 2nd and 4th harmonic distortion.

Yup. But nowadays all the studios have huge digital systems.

Any progress on the new mix? Damn. I'd like to get my hands on that project. Hoho.

[jasedee]

Any progress on the new mix?
I am spending today fine-tuning, and will post the 'final' mix later tonight, hopefully with all issues ironed out!

[jasedee]

Yup. But nowadays all the studios have huge digital systems.
Yeah....but also notice how the big studios also still retain all the old classic vintage analogue outboard (Urei, teletronics etc), and also still mix to 2" analogue tape after ProTools for mastering to get that "Warmth" before again going digital to CD.

I dont think analogue will go away.....And I think people are realising that digital is not as good as they thought, although getting better all the time. Just take a look at all the Valve gear on the market......everything is tube this, valve that, warm up your digital audio (think TL Audio range).

There are units out there with the best of both worlds.....Vintage analogue pre/compressor/EQ but with modern noise specs, SNR etc, and then high quality A/D coverters. Take a look at Mercenary (http://www.mercenary.com/) for some great analogue/digital hybrids!

[jasedee]

OK.....

The finished MIX is here! (http://stickychicken.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/lp_mandymaster.mp3)

I took on some comments and suggestions and changed things accordingly.

The vocals IMO seems to sit alot nicer, without losing impact, and without taking over.

Bass - Dont think Juho will be happy as distortion is still not quite as present, but I think overall has more character and definition.

Guitars - More powerfull and crunchy

I slowed down a bit with the Multi-band buss compression in SX, and instead used a slightly better one in Spark XL over the whole mix, but tried not to get too carried away. I think it is a improvement. Not so much bottom end now......

Hope you all enjoyed listening, and thanks to everyone who took the time to d/l and listen, and provide feedback. Always good to have some honest, brutal criticism....

Cheers,

Jase

[Juho L]

The mix is ok now (except the solo guitar that gets drowned). But the general sound is still too gentle. More and more grit. This kind of sound fits on basic rock but not on this kind of harder rock.

[jasedee]

But the general sound is still too gentle.
Do you think it is not aggressive enough? Or sounds too polished.....

I had the idea that this song bordered on mainstream hardrock...which is why I approached the mix as I did. Maybe the idea in my head was commercial appeal.....But still retaining the "Live" feel and edge.

Anyways, it is handed in now, this afternoon. So I will update again when I get my results for the project.

And right now, I think if I hear the song one more time I will be heading to the bell tower....postman stylee!

Cheers guys!

[Juho L]

Do you think it is not aggressive enough? Or sounds too polished.....

It's not agressive enough. It's too goody-goody.

Anyways, it is handed in now, this afternoon. So I will update again when I get my results for the project.

Let's hope they like it.

And right now, I think if I hear the song one more time I will be heading to the bell tower....postman stylee!

Hoho. I know exactly what you mean.

[Hollowcell]

I finaly get a chance to listen to the version I DLed last Thursday, but now it seems I'm a version behind again! I won't have the laptop at work until Monday, so I'll grab the finished version then and comment.

What the hell were you talking about here Juho? Yup. But nowadays all the studios have huge digital systems.

Hope you do well with it Jase! When do you get the results?

[jasedee]

seems I'm a version behind again!
You just can keep up mate! :)

Hope you do well with it Jase! When do you get the results?
Thanks! Not sure when the results will be in, hopefully not too long...Will let you all know how I go

Thanks for taking the time to DL & listen.....

[Juho L]

Jasedee kindly provided me the original audio files so that I could make a remaster of that track and this is what I ended up with: http://www.kolumbus.fi/juho.lepisto/Lady_Peroxide_-_Mandy_(remaster).mp3

Sounds ok. Maybe a bit too much reverb though (this was an accident, I should have had to make a dedicated reverb send group tracks).

The main differences to Jasedees mix are distorted bass to bring it up a bit and give clarity (also EQ'ed the upper middle to boost the "trigger" sounds) and I widened vocals and guitars with slight 100% wet chorus on the opposite channel. I tried to boost that snap of the kick with an EQ but is ended up sounding a bit silly.

Edit: By the way I played this mix to few of my friends and they liked the band a lot. Is this band unsigned?

[jasedee]

Sounds ok. Maybe a bit too much reverb though (this was an accident, I should have had to make a dedicated reverb send group tracks)
This was going to be my first criticism....

The main differences to Jasedees mix are distorted bass to bring it up a bit and give clarity (also EQ'ed the upper middle to boost the "trigger" sounds) and I widened vocals and guitars with slight 100% wet chorus on the opposite channel. I tried to boost that snap of the kick with an EQ but is ended up sounding a bit silly
Bass sounds good! I like it the most out of all the parts. Kick does sound a little silly, but was recorded badly and needs alot of work. I think you could do much much better if you spent a little more time with this track. You have only had the audio parts for a short amount of time. It took me about 5 full days spaced over a month!!!!!! and still I am not quite satisfied

Is this band unsigned?
As far as I know they are an unsigned sydney band.....But I agree, they are very good, and they were an absolute pleasure to record. Very professional and commited....no bullshit!

I'd like to see something better Juho, If I were to be honest with you. I think you are capable of much more.

[Juho L]

I'd like to see something better Juho, If I were to be honest with you. I think you are capable of much more.

Thanks. After few listens I've noticed loads of things that could be fixed. I spent only few hours on this mastering process so it was pretty quick.

Maybe I'll fix this on the week.