What the hell is wrong with modern dance music

[Juho L]

Yes. What's wrong? Where is the groove? A good dance track makes you dance. A good dance track gets people move even they don't usually dance. I realised this while listening to Stevie Wonders Superstition. This tracks makes you move more than all the modern dance tracks altogether. I just would love to dance this kind of music. Maybe I'll have to fix the problem by myself.

Why all modern dance music is based in bloody banal straight lines of 1/8th's or 1/16th's! It's just wrong! When you make music that is meant to be danced, then why you kill all the danceability from it? Bloody trance people! GAAH! (I blame them again. ?hih) Good thing though that at least on some areas of house genre the funk still lives.

[Tomer=Trance]

you should maybe blame the guy who came up with the idea of sequencing and quarntize not trance people.
the different between michel jarra's firts albums in the 70s and his recent work (04) is huge
today its all sequencing
you can compere that and same the same about about lose of groove.

[Blank]

OMG I absolutely find Stevie Wonders music to be the shit!! He makes some of the best tunes I have ever heard...Well Juho get out there and change it...

peace
Blank

[Juho L]

you should maybe blame the guy who came up with the idea of sequencing and quarntize not trance people.

You can get some slight groove with just small elements. Like simple changes in rythm and bass. Using straight 1/8th's and 1/16th's isn't helping. And what the heck does JMJ has to do with groove. ?hih.

OMG I absolutely find Stevie Wonders music to be the shit!!

When I saw Stevie Wonder and shit in the same sentence I already was getting my battle axe from the warehouse. The I read the sentence again.

He makes some of the best tunes I have ever heard...Well Juho get out there and change it...

Yup. Man's gotta do what man's gotta do.

[Blank]

I kinda figure you were going to say some thing that...So Juho let me know when you have finished a track with the new style!! Would love to hear it!!

peace
Blank

[jasedee]

Dont forget to put things in context.......

Scenario 1: You are watching TV, MTV actually, and a new "Dance" video clip comes on. The beat is blaring out of the TV's shitty speakers, the images are making you ill, and the overall conclusion is that the music is shit

Scenario 2: You walk into a club with some close friends. you have just taken a hit of [insert name of trendy drug here] and you are starting to peak. The DJ starts to play the same track from the video that was on MTV, the subs are pumping and the 4/4 beat is rattling your rib cage as 35000W+ of bass and energy is propelling you back & forth, side to side, your head starts to nod and the build into the main loop jerks you forward as the drugs effects start to kick in, the crowd has now reached 4000, the club is at maximum capacity, the combined energy of thousands of people flows through you and everywhere you look there is a smile, there is unity, there is pure enjoyment and, heaven forbid, love.......

I think you get the idea. So, if you say dance music is made to make you dance, then you better not be judging a song from the comfort of your living room, listening to a MP3 on your shitty computer monitors or headphones, whingeing about how if it were up to you dance music would be blah blah blah blah.....

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it ;)

[Juho L]

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it ;)

So you mean that modern dance music is totally indanceable because you can make it danceable with shitty drugs? What about people who would rather shoot the drug dealer than buy the drugs?

It's quite sad if you'll have to take drugs to enjoy music. With that drug logic we could just stop making music, put a random noise on the speakers and start taking drugs until it sounds good or you're dead.

I think it's a bit better to make music that makes you dance without seven tons of poison in your system. It's also healthier and safer.

[jasedee]

I think it's a bit better to make music that makes you dance without seven tons of poison in your system. It's also healthier and safer.
Dont get me wrong....I think it is a sad state of affairs too, but it is a reality! The people at the clubs that are dancing to this type of music are either:

a) high
b) drunk
c) on the way to being both of the above

Well, as with all generalisations not ALL people at clubs do this, but a hell of alot do. This is the culture. This is generation Y. This is social drug use, this is recreational drug use, and these people are keeping the dance industry afloat.

Im not agreeing, or condoning the use of recreational drugs to enjoy music, life....but we have to come to terms that this behaviour is now almost normal and part & parcel of teenagers, adolescents, growing up, experimenting....as it always has been. From the very early days of mozart where the socialites would sniff ether and have group sex after the concerto', through the 50's, 60's etc......rave culture, drug culture, are they one and the same? Probably!

Understand the people who are listening to the music...the dance music, who dont care what synth this track was made with, only that it will further enhance their night-time activities, their "recreation"......

[jasedee]

What about people who would rather shoot the drug dealer than buy the drugs?
They are probably not at the raves or buying dance music though ;)

[Juho L]

But reasoning the current state of "dance" music by a drug culture is a bit lame. If some people use drugs, why we shouldn't make music that is danceable without drugs? It's like thinking why to make good dance music when people dance on anykind of crap because they're so high. Who knows what kind of kicks the junkies get when they hear good danceable music.

Edit: One reason for this issue could be that 99% of the dance music producers just don't know how to make danceable music.

[jasedee]

But reasoning the current state of "dance" music by a drug culture is a bit lame.
Well, I think that the dance culture and the drug culture go hand in hand. It's especially true with todays designer drugs like ecstacy, ice, speed, cocaine etc....where a persons night out to a club will in some cases, be without question that recreational drug use will be undertaken.

And I think dance music, techno, acid house etc was born under these conditions. Warehouse style parties in the 80's where ecstacy use was becoming huge. The use of methamphetamine and the growing popularity of dance music cannot by themselves be mentioned without the other one.

why we shouldn't make music that is danceable without drugs?
I dont think people make dance music so that people on drugs will dance to it...it is only where the music will end up. And by all means we should be making music that is danceable without needing to use drugs, but still the fact remains that when people go to a rave, or club, the use of drugs will almost be like a decision to have a drink at a bar. I think the use of recreational drugs is becoming more accepted. Decriminalisation, harm minimisation...these are being pushed instead of "zero tolerance". Amsterdam...for example.

Who knows what kind of kicks the junkies get when they hear good danceable music.
I think we need to seperate the term junkie, and recreational user.

Edit: One reason for this issue could be that 99% of the dance music producers just don't know how to make danceable music.
Quite possibly :)

Edit: We could also go back to the 60's, Jimi Hendrix on acid etc....the dope smoking hippies expanding their minds to experimental, anti-govenrment psychedelic rock, using drugs as a means of recreation, rebellion, and we can administer the same reasoning there as is with dance music today.....it is the same thing, except now it is hard trance and ecstacy, instead of pot/acid and good ol rock n roll!

I dont think that the two musical genres can be compared, but the social and cultural aspects can be.

Edit 2: And I think that really, there has always been shit music, and there always will be. I think we can look at the advance of technology as one of the main culprits in the state of dance music today. the technology is so damn cheap now, and anyone has access to it. Synths are shipped with enough presets to make you sound like the dance record you bought last week, software can be downloaded free......The boom in bedroom producers and recording equipment means that anyone can start to make "dance" music.......I think the shit will always be there, and it is up to people like you and I to make the choice to not support it. We can turn to a different radio station when it comes on. We can change the television channel when these videos are played, we can stop even discussing it and make an effort to be the pioneers of the 21st century, like all those great musicians from the past. We can be creative, inspirational, dynamic and above all, different. We can be experimental, and push the boundaries continuously!

OK..better stop now. Am starting to rant and preach

[Blank]

WOW LOL...Such a falacy...You 2 should not be merging drugs and dance music, they are not one in the same...almost all live music events are over run with drugs in some form or another, this includes rock and 60's, 70's, and 80's music...and im sure Stevie did coc, it was readily available at the time and many popular musicians were doing it...Heck Ray Charles did...anything is possilbe...Drugs are there no matter what...you write music for ppl to enjoy, if they have to get high to do it its there problem, if not good for them...and if they dont like it fuck em' :wink:
Juho if you want to try this endeavor go ahead but i suggest you make music you like to make, you will have more fun that way...

peace
Blank

[Hollowcell]

Juho if you want to try this endeavor go ahead but i suggest you make music you like to make, you will have more fun that way...


Yeh, even if it's that weirdo ProgRock crap you listen to. Hehehe.

[Blank]

Man i tell you what Hollow, you really opened up since you first started posting here LOL :lol:


peace
Blank

[Juho L]

I know that drugs have been around music scene from the very beginning and still there have been brilliant music. Drugs are just a bad excuse for bad music. Gaah.

When I'll get my studio running and get my John Bleak Project on, you'll guys will be amazed... or not.

[jasedee]

I know that drugs have been around music scene from the very beginning and still there have been brilliant music
And at the same time there has also been shit music (see 'apache' video), as there still is in all of todays genres....be it Dance, Pop, Rock, and *shock horror* ProgRock!

Can it be that standards have slipped? Can it be that the human race is perhaps not as creative as it once was? Can it be that the technology for music making, especially in the dance/electronica genre, is now so accessible, to all walks of life, and regardless of talent and knowledge any fool can release a CD, vinyl, and call it 'dance'..........

[Juho L]

And at the same time there has also been shit music (see 'apache' video), as there still is in all of todays genres....be it Dance, Pop, Rock, and *shock horror* ProgRock!

What?! You question coolness of The Apache?!

Can it be that standards have slipped? Can it be that the human race is perhaps not as creative as it once was? Can it be that the technology for music making, especially in the dance/electronica genre, is now so accessible, to all walks of life, and regardless of talent and knowledge any fool can release a CD, vinyl, and call it 'dance'..........

"Recording equipement is too cheap nowadays" - Lennu from muusikoiden.net when commenting a demo that was utter crap.

Indeed professional equipement is way too cheap nowadays. Even with 1000 euros you can get a good start. This leads to a situation in which some people get producing equipement even they don't have faintest clue about anything releated to that. Of course people learn that way but it's a rough fact of life that most people just don't have talent. We all are medicore at best in everything execpt some people who are above average in one or two things. If you don't have talent, you just can't learn. Sometimes I've thought that one should need a licence to get a synth from a store. To get a licence you should study basics of music and the concept of MIDI and basics audio (connecting cables, etc). Also when you buy a synth before you get it home you'll have to perform a trial in the store. In that trial you're only equipped with a manual and the synth. In that trial you'll have to perform basic functions on the synth, like basic sound editing, sequencing, patch control, etc. In the end you'll have to perform a musical piece (the more professional synth, the more demanding piece).

This way we would get a situation in which the untalented people would only get Casio home keyboards. Of course this owuld lead to a point in which all trance is made with Casio keyboards, but that's not a problem. Buahahaha!

But think what kind of relief it would be! No-one would never ever again answer questions like "I boutght 2000 euro synth. I've connected the MIDI cables but I can't hear anything. What's wrong?" or "What the hell is this modmatrix?" or maybe even "How do I use the filters?". It's just annoying that people are so lazy that they don't bother to learn the basics by themselves even they have a comprehensive manual and a world's largest information database at their fingertips, but instead they bother other people with stupid questions (Yes, they are stupid questions... Actually incredibly stupid questions - an another rough fact of life. Your questions are authorized to be called stupid if you'd get the answers easier by yourself).

We really should get this licence & trial system. Who's with me? I am! I am!

[jasedee]

What?! You question coolness of The Apache?!
Ok ok....I take that back. Apache is way cool!

get this licence & trial system. Who's with me? I am! I am!
I dont think I can pass this license test :?

[Juho L]

Ok ok....I take that back. Apache is way cool!

Good.

I dont think I can pass this license test :?

This means that you'll just have to take some time (few hours) and study the basics and youll do just fine.

It's really strange that people make music even they don't know anything about notation or chords. Oh boy they don't even know how much better they would do with those basic bits of knowledge.

[Onkel Dunkel]

I think the biggest problem is that crap music sells so why bother making quality music :cry:

[jasedee]

I think the biggest problem is that crap music sells so why bother making quality music :cry:
Thing is, crap music sells, cos people arent educated. Now, if we all make our best efforts to produce brilliant music, flood the market with nothing but great quality, then people will slowly learn. I think we are in a moment of change, and it is a change for the best.

We need more action, less talk....more dedication to the cause, and of course, a dictator leadership with a take no prisoners attitude. Someone who has the courage to seek out and terminate the crap music of the world :twisted:

[Onkel Dunkel]

Thing is, crap music sells, cos people arent educated. Now, if we all make our best efforts to produce brilliant music, flood the market with nothing but great quality, then people will slowly learn. I think we are in a moment of change, and it is a change for the best.

I?m sure the way to flooding the market with quality music won?t go thruogh MTV or the big commersial record companies. They?ll rather stick to what they know makes money than experiment with new "quality musicians". Of course they will take some chances but the majority of what they send out will still be crap. For them it?s a question of making money, not making people listen to quality music. Sad but true :(

and of course, a dictator leadership with a take no prisoners attitude. Someone who has the courage to seek out and terminate the crap music of the world.

Who will run for dictator? Oh, i forgot. They aren?t elected. Anyone fell like overthrowing the goverment of music :D

[jasedee]

For them it?s a question of making money, not making people listen to quality music. Sad but true :(
OK I agree.....but lets seperate the "music industry" from the "money industry". These are clearly 2 very different things, and we all know crap exists in the "money industry", but the same crap also exists in the "music industry".

I think we may have some problems here though, as difference of opinion is a hard thing to judge. Something I think is of excellence may be something Juho thinks is crap! How can we moderate opinions?

[Juho L]

Who will run for dictator?

Me! Me!

I don't think the problem is in the people. The problem is in the music industry, which is pathetic. They only invest in the overproduced bubblegum music and don't dare to take even slightest risks. And the most funny thing is that after all that crappy cheap music they wonder why piracy is increasing. They probably haven't thought that probably people don't want to pay for total crap.

I bet that If major record companies would start to release new innovative music people would buy more records. At the moment the companies are just strangling themselves to death, which might be a good thing. When the current companies go down the new ones start a new way on the business: Quality before the quantity.

[jasedee]

But the thing is, the smaller companies will go first, and the big corporations will buy them out, and then we will start to see a monopoly in the music industry, where one huge company will control everything!

Scary.....

[Juho L]

But the thing is, the smaller companies will go first, and the big corporations will buy them out, and then we will start to see a monopoly in the music industry, where one huge company will control everything!

Yup. But the truth is that big companies won't stay in business with current thing for long.

[ledge]

It's really strange that people make music even they don't know anything about notation or chords. Oh boy they don't even know how much better they would do with those basic bits of knowledge.

This is so true. I play around, but quickly realised I'm not going to get anywhere unless I learn the basics of music theory and to be able to play the keyboard to a reasonable skill level.

I've long been saying that the difference between good and bad dance music will almost always have something to do with the producers level of musical knowledge and it can really show.

I'm also curious Juho what you base this "all dance music nowadays is shit" stance on? As you aren't into dance music, where are you hearing it? If it is just radio and MTV then of course you aren't going to here anything good or innovative. But that would be the same for any genre.

[ledge]

Yup. But the truth is that big companies won't stay in business with current thing for long.

Erm, wrong. They may not grow any further but chart music is all about marketing and has fuck all to do with good music :)

The big labels will never innovate, everyone in them is too scared of making the wrong decision so they don't take risks, which is their loss. Luckily there will always be people out their producing good music, it is just a matter of finding it :)

[Juho L]

I've long been saying that the difference between good and bad dance music will almost always have something to do with the producers level of musical knowledge and it can really show.

Yup. For example use of chords is incredibly banal. With simple chord tricks a track can get a totally new atmosphere.

I'm also curious Juho what you base this "all dance music nowadays is shit" stance on? As you aren't into dance music, where are you hearing it? If it is just radio and MTV then of course you aren't going to here anything good or innovative. But that would be the same for any genre.

I listen to all kinds of music. I never listen to radio or watch MTV because it's just waste of my time. I just roam around the net looking for additions to my music collection. That way I have a slight knowledge on about all kinds of music.

[Juho L]

Erm, wrong. They may not grow any further but chart music is all about marketing and has fuck all to do with good music :)

When records start to sell less and less the advertising get's bloody expensive.

[Blank]

Here is what i have noticed about the music industry...they tend to grab up artist who have a few or even one catchy song, have a sellable look to them and then ride out the profit on the individual...they do this in relation to what is selling on the streets to the consumers...but this doesnt mean they dont have talented musicians within the record label aswell...they just dont over feed them to the consumers...they know the artist is talented and will make good music so instead of over flooding the market they feed the consumers little bits at a time to get a steady following...at first they loose profit but the gain is worth it in the end...and with all the one hits making them CASH they can sit on a few hear and there for long term growth...The record companies take chances, its just not even close to the number of over done bullshit they can reap the benifits from...But the term good is relative to the listener...so when they take chances i mean they take them on skillful songwriters...but its like a couple speckles of gold on a pile of shit...

As for a couple chord tricks that is minute compared to what else lies in the knowledge bag...there are so many more techniques available to you then just that...that is really only a step up from common rythmic configurations for trance...

Thats just how i feel about it...

peace
Blank

remember you never quit learning...and if you ever notice you do...you should kill yourself LOL!!!

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Juho the answer to this is clear. Dance music lacks 80's style brass sounds and power chords. Now if someone had the balls to integrate this (at the cost of ruining their bedroom career) then I think dance music would be better :lol:

But then again....im not sure if society is ready for such a cool concept.

DS :P

[Tomer=Trance]

fuck i knew you'l say synth brass DS hehe
i think the oberhims have got to get back to their golden years era. :wink:
viva la matrix!
viva la oberhim! :D

[Juho L]

But then again....im not sure if society is ready for such a cool concept.

It's just so cool! It's so cool that nothing can be cooler... IN AN INVERSE WORLD!

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Muhahahahaah......

:oops:

DS

[blay]

everytime someone mentions 80's i think about my girlfriend in japan.

shes probably tearing up a karaoke competition in tokyo somewhere as i write this message :wink:

[Hollowcell]

"You spin me right round baby, right round like a record baby, right round, round round round."

Ahh the 80s. When cool music had absolutely nothing at all to say. :D

And don't even get me started on the Karaoke culture here in Japan Blay! Hehehe.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Theres a really good Japanese composer (god ive forgotten his name). Well anyways he used loads of DX7 in the 80's. He made some really catchy 80's pop. Ill try and find it for you...

Oh....thinking of 80's music has motivated me to dig this out (reaching for the video....hehe). Check out another Howard Jones classic from the late 80's! God I love it LMAO.

Classic! (http://www.howardjones.com/HoJo/multimedia/video/The_Prisoner.rm)

When I listen to music like this in the car with my g'friend it always makes me feel good. If only modern pop had some atmosphere like this :P

DS

[Smag]

For dance music, I really like this sort of stuff at the moment, tracks 7, 8, 15 I like particularly. There are clips to listen to.

http://www.fabriclondon.com/label.artist.album.fabric.php?artist=akufen&release=fab17/aku