People forgetting the human

[Juho L]

That mixdown thread inspired me.

I've seen many threads on various forums about minor quality issues like people comparing DAC's, analog and digital mixing, monitors, etc. Some people seem to think that those totally trivial and hardly audible issues are essential for good result and totally forget that the result is 99,9% dependant on the person operating the system.

I couldn't care less what bloody DAC's are on my studio system or how I'm doing the mixing. One of the basic rules of life also applies to studio work: Can't make candy out of shit. An adept bloke can get brilliant stuff even on medicore system and totally unskilled guy can't get antyhing good even he would have 100,000,000 euro studio.

I'm always very amused when people start to compare DAC's like they would have huge effect on the result. People should rather waste their energy on discussing about mastering and mixing techinques rather than on some pseudo-science of mixing algorithms and analogue vs. digital. If your mix sounds muddy it doesn't mean that you should get better gear, it usually just means that you suck. Hoho. The human makes the sound, not the gear.

You won't lern to paint better if you buy the most expensive paints and brushes available. You learn to paint better if you practise painting instead of discussing which paints have the best tone of colour. So people, please, forget the trivialities do something useful for a change. ?hih.

[xerxes_]

amen!

best post i have ever read on this massivly worn out topic.

[Juho L]

amen!

best post i have ever read on this massivly worn out topic.

Thanks. Good to have back up on this issue.

I can't even remember when there have been a good discussion on something actually useful mixing/mastering issue. All discussions have been on this "hardly audible" area. I think I'll put up a one useful thread now.

[Wandering Kid]

i agree in that 99% of the time, its the person who fucks up. if they blame their tools or say they need better tools to better their mix then most of time they are looking for a quick easy fix to a problem where the only solution is to just try and try again until you get it right.

if your mixdown is a steaming turd and has blatent EQing problems, phasing problems etc etc. you can run them through thousands of dollars worth of effects, DACs and amazing new fangled dithering algorythyms. it'll just be an effected, dithered turd at the end of the day.

but for the people that arent making turds. you know. i can see why they want to perfect their sound and you can get closer to that by knowing how to dither properly. by using certain DACs and effects. this stuff is useless to people like me because my production isnt at a stage where i feel its solid. i still get EQ problems, and my stereo placement is still a bit...errr random. so for peeps like me, its much more worthwhile investing time in how to produce a track properly as opposed to worry about DACs and stuff like that. people that blame poor DACs, poor renderers, poor mastering software when they have blatently just produced a shat track. the old expression 'bad worksman blames his tools' springs to mind.

[Juho L]

but for the people that arent making turds. you know. i can see why they want to perfect their sound and you can get closer to that by knowing how to dither properly. by using certain DACs and effects. this stuff is useless to people like me because my production isnt at a stage where i feel its solid. i still get EQ problems, and my stereo placement is still a bit...errr random. so for peeps like me, its much more worthwhile investing time in how to produce a track properly as opposed to worry about DACs and stuff like that. people that blame poor DACs, poor renderers, poor mastering software when they have blatently just produced a shat track. the old expression 'bad worksman blames his tools' springs to mind.

Yup. Then you're entitled to ponder differences of DAC's and other trivial "sound polish" things when you're adept at mixing and mastering and only way to improve is for example to change DAC's. My point is that people tend to start from the "sound polish" area and forget to study the area that covers 99,9% of a good result. This is intuitivelly hazardous situation.

I can bet my arm that this forum doesn't have adept sound engineers (that kind of blokes that have a soundwise touch of Midas). It's just silly to focus on the most trivial details when you have lot to improve in your skills. Only really small fraction of people hear difference between DAC's and mixing methods, but everyone can hear a difference between a good mix and a bad mix and the human does the mix.

I know one professional producer and whatever he does it sounds bloody good. Does he have carefully selected DAC's? Does he have an analog mixing desk with thousands of dollars processing gear? No. He has an ordinary PC and the mixes sound good because he knows what he is doing.

[jasedee]

If you dont think that equipment matters, you are fooling yourselves....

If you cant hear the difference in quality of a shit DAC and a really nice DAC, you need your hearing checked

If you think your behringer preamps sound as nice as Neve preamps, then brother, are you in for a shock....

Im not saying equipment is everything

I completely agree with alot of what is said here. I cant make a good recording if the artist has no talent. But if you have an amazing artist, and you record him in a beautiful room, with gorgeous mics, big phat Neve pre's, hitting that tape hard, then the results will surely speak for themselves....

If you cant hear the difference between a recording done on beautiful vintage analogue gear, and a recording done at home via a budget mixer, budget mics, and budget converter....well......I dont know, you need to experience 'good' sound first hand.

[Hollowcell]

I know one professional producer and whatever he does it sounds bloody good. Does he have carefully selected DAC's? Does he have an analog mixing desk with thousands of dollars processing gear? No. He has an ordinary PC and the mixes sound good because he knows what he is doing.

Imagine what his stuff would sound like with some nice gear then.:D

Give it 5 years and there won't be any talk on this topic (maybe). At the moment though, there is a difference (specially in the hands of a talented user). Get access to a studio similar to the one Jase has been working at and take a listen.

Like I've said before though, I am making demos only. I'm not producing other peoples music or making cash from recording. I don't need the best, but lying to myself by saying my computer can do just as well as the top gear isn't clever at all.

Your producer friend Juho. Is he producing other bands (not dance) for money, or is he producing his own music for small scale release?

[Juho L]

But if you have an amazing artist, and you record him in a beautiful room, with gorgeous mics, big phat Neve pre's, hitting that tape hard, then the results will surely speak for themselves....

But the result will be totally ruined if you don't know how to make a good mix/master. This is the point. It's more essential to be a good in mixing/mastering than waste time in studying trivialities.

If you cant hear the difference between a recording done on beautiful vintage analogue gear, and a recording done at home via a budget mixer, budget mics, and budget converter....well......I dont know, you need to experience 'good' sound first hand.

Of course equipement counts and affects the sound, but people shouldn't start from there. What's the point in discussing quality differences of equipement if you don't even know how to use the potential of the equipement. Bad mix is a bad mix no matter what equipement is used.

[Juho L]

Imagine what his stuff would sound like with some nice gear then.:D

He just uses Cubase SX and he always has that billion dollar sound.

Your producer friend Juho. Is he producing other bands (not dance) for money, or is he producing his own music for small scale release?

One of the leading comercial music producers around here. Also does music for TV and random band projects.

[Juho L]

I'll just sum up: Equipement of course affects the sound, but if you suck, no gear can save your ass. If you know what you're doing you can get great results even on average system. The point is that people waste their energy on things that less help them to create great mixes. If all that energy could be channeled on studying and parctising mixing/mastering we would have much better sounding stuff around. The human makes the overall sound. Hifi $20k equipement is just polishing.

[hatembr]

i agree with juho on this point, he's not saying equipment is not important nor it doesn't affect the production quality, he's just saying there are more important things to learn before talking about such details, hardly audible for unexperienced people.

And things can sound descent even on cheap equipment and that has been proven, remember Mr Oizoo !!!!!! he has no neve and no euphonix!

The song's bass and scratch sounds were made on a Korg MS-20, the drums on a TR-606 and an Akai S1000 was used to sample everything including the MS-20 bass. No effects were used. The rest of Dupieux's minimal kit-list includes a Roland SH-09, Roland Space Echo, Moog Rogue and simply a Mackie 1202 mixer. He's proving once again that you don't need anything fancy, just a few pieces of analog and a sampler to create killer, even breakthrough tracks like Flat Beat!

[Wandering Kid]

you peeps should have heard my old guitar teacher. he could pick up any guitar. no matter how shit. give him the shittest amp and if it worked and had overdrive, he could pull of crazy artificial harmonics. i need alot of gain to be able to do those with any kind of consistancy and i didnt believe it was possible on my old ?70 electric. until i was shown otherwise 8O

its amazing how far you can go if you just practice and forget all that technical stuff. you are right though jasedee when you say theres a difference. give that dude a real fender, with a nice triple rectified mesa boogie valve amp and he would totally rip. but to be honest i had more respect for the fact he was just plain good enough to flatter any guitar. imagine that! the instrument isnt flattering you anymore! you are flattering some of the instruments you play!

now thats a nice position to be in. currently alot of the people i see on production forums that blame reason's renderer for their own shit tracks - well...i dont think they have taken reason even half the distance you are capable of going with it. in many cases...especially with amateur producers like myself the limiting factor is not the software or the hardware you use. its the person using it. and even if you come to a situation where improving your hardware will make a noticeable difference to the sound you are making (i.e. for me virus was no 2 ways about it, a marked step up from vanguard) i find there are many other areas of production in which i am deficit in anyway and could do with improving.

[jasedee]

I'll just sum up: Equipement of course affects the sound, but if you suck, no gear can save your ass.
Agreed!

[jasedee]

you don't need anything fancy, just a few pieces of analogue and a sampler to create killer, even breakthrough tracks like Flat Beat!
Hmmm......there's that magic word again!

[Wandering Kid]

never used any analogue gear although im really curious. i think virus b sounds a bit digital (without having much to compare it to) but its fat as hell. gigantic bottom end on it that is also quite tight. whereas vanguard is very blurry in the lows (probably because of all the aliasing although it makes it really unique!). so i just hear that analogue is...well...fatter. i think though that had i continued with my triumvert of softsynths, i would have gotten better and better at creating timbres with those instruments. but having a hardware unit is much more hands on. i can have low latency now cuz i can use 16 timbral parts from the virus and my CPU load is still really low. so i can use my typing keyboard to play piano and its much more natural to write music. its quicker. more fun. more hands on. so id say that despite my stance in this thread, my virus b has been a hardware upgrade that is totally worth it and has had a huge difference on the sounds im making. i just need to finish something >_____<

[Juho L]

i agree with juho on this point, he's not saying equipment is not important nor it doesn't affect the production quality, he's just saying there are more important things to learn before talking about such details, hardly audible for unexperienced people.

Exactly!

its amazing how far you can go if you just practice and forget all that technical stuff. you are right though jasedee when you say theres a difference. give that dude a real fender, with a nice triple rectified mesa boogie valve amp and he would totally rip. but to be honest i had more respect for the fact he was just plain good enough to flatter any guitar. imagine that! the instrument isnt flattering you anymore! you are flattering some of the instruments you play!

This is what I mean. There's no reason to ponder differences between analog and other systems if you don't have technique.

[xerxes_]

i'll give this another shot.. AMEN!

[Hollowcell]

you peeps should have heard my old guitar teacher. he could pick up any guitar. no matter how shit. give him the shittest amp and if it worked and had overdrive, he could pull of crazy artificial harmonics. i need alot of gain to be able to do those with any kind of consistancy and i didnt believe it was possible on my old ?70 electric. until i was shown otherwise 8O
.

Wish this could happen with a nice Minimoog Vs the plug-in version of the same synth. Even in the hands of a talented programmer the plug-in won't do it justice.

As far as mastering and real world recording goes, yep I agree with you Juho too. Basicly the people behind the screen or desk make all the difference. Those same people will get very different results depending on the gear they are using too though - specially if they know what they are doing.

[Panopticon]

I'll take a killer performance on a casio 4 track anyday over a shit performance at The Hit Factory. Good production isn't about the gear, anyway, it's about the production itself. And while we would all prefer to have banging mixes recorded on great equipment; at the end of the day that extra 1% that you'll get out of boutique stuff doesn't much matter. You look at a band like The Grateful Dead and that fact really comes to light...there are thousands of bootleg tapes out there are cherished by their fans: mistakes, poor production, shit equipment, and all. Britney Spears' stuff has a pretty decent level of production in it, but no one's gonna give two shits in ten years.

I'm not trying to be conceited or say I'm better than anyone else (because I truly don't believe I am); I'm just going to state a fact here: I'm probably one of the only people on this board who actually makes a decent living solely by producing his own music. In it's entirety, my studio has cost me a bit under $20k. You can't squeze too many Apogees, Neves, or Neumanns into that (count NONE). I won't upgrade any further until I've advanced my artistry beyond my current equipment....(or get uber-rich overnight...I mean we all still LIKE GEAR).

[jasedee]

I'm probably one of the only people on this board who actually makes a decent living solely by producing his own music
Would love to hear some music if possible!!!

:)

[Juho L]

In it's entirety, my studio has cost me a bit under $20k. You can't squeze too many Apogees, Neves, or Neumanns into that (count NONE). I won't upgrade any further until I've advanced my artistry beyond my current equipment....(or get uber-rich overnight...I mean we all still LIKE GEAR).

Yup. One should not be too gear oriented. It's always sad to see someone buying 10k? worth of gear in hope of starting producing high quality stuff. Oh boy the dissapointement is huge when you can't get out any top stuff just by pressing a button and hoping for the best. Then the gear usually ends up in eBay.

Edit: By the way Panopticon, you make music by order or you do loads of gigs?

[Wandering Kid]

Wish this could happen with a nice Minimoog Vs the plug-in version of the same synth. Even in the hands of a talented programmer the plug-in won't do it justice.

heheh. of course you can hear the difference. my old guitar had a horrible flat tone. and my teacher couldnt get rid of that. but he could pick it and play it and he was damn good. he could have knocked together a lo fi recording of it and i reckon it would pass for some of the lo fi rock out there very easily. but people who arent even half as good as my old guitar teacher complaining that they need a genuine fender strat cuz their fender squire doesnt cut it - they just need to practice some more.

same with producers i think. if some tarnce!!1 producer makes out that he needs a real moog to get his fat basslines when theres clearly EQing and clipping errors in his song. that person needs to realise that spending several thousands of pounds on hardware doesnt necessarily make you a better producer. he just needs to work with layers of the aturia minimoog plugin and sort his EQing out. once he has done that and really taken his software as far as it can go, then maybe its time to get that elusive minimoog. the plugin will never sound like the real deal but i bet you he can get it close enough for the layperson not to notice or give a damn and he can still make a damn good song without a real one. :D

[Wandering Kid]

I'll take a killer performance on a casio 4 track anyday over a shit performance at The Hit Factory. Good production isn't about the gear, anyway, it's about the production itself. And while we would all prefer to have banging mixes recorded on great equipment; at the end of the day that extra 1% that you'll get out of boutique stuff doesn't much matter. You look at a band like The Grateful Dead and that fact really comes to light...there are thousands of bootleg tapes out there are cherished by their fans: mistakes, poor production, shit equipment, and all. Britney Spears' stuff has a pretty decent level of production in it, but no one's gonna give two shits in ten years.

absolutely. truth be told, ive heard enough fantastic proffessional sounding songs made on cheap software setups with only 2 or 3 VSTis and free drum samples that it makes me think - i would be kidding myself if i thought that purchasing my dream list of studio equipment would make my songs that much better. i would still have problems in my songs that i didnt sort out because i thought throwing money at it would fix it. it doesnt.

[Panopticon]

By the way Panopticon, you make music by order or you do loads of gigs?

I have a recording contract and I play a lot of gigs. I received an advance from the label, and we're just wrapping up the LP for that release.

I can't post songs for you to listen to, as I'm under contractual obligation, but there will be snippets shortly available on www.suckstar.com, as well as video. It's undergoing reformat, I think it should be fully online by christmas. There's just a template there now....