Let's play a game

[Juho L]

I got an idea from that "People forgetting the human" thread.

For the rest of the December, everyone forgets all tech babble and instead focuses on conrete and essential parts of music and production, like composing, mixing/mastering, playing and listening. All of you who can't play well (or at all), practise playing. Learn to read score. Learn chrods and chord theory. Widen your taste of music by listening to some totally different music you usually listen to. Try to compose/produce something different for a change. Share thoughts on composing, production, music. Etc, etc.

If everyone starts to play that game, we have a bit (a hell of a lot actually) higher level of musicanship on the forum at the beginning of 2005.

To keep a track on the progress everyone could post their own list of achievements for December and the update the list until the end of 2004.

December 8th - Listened to some Bulgarian traditional music and ska. Didn't actually like the Bulgarian music, but some ska tracks worked pretty well. I also practised Weather Report's Birdland and ELP Hoedown for about an hour.

December 10th - Did some vocal practises today. Sung through few songs. Also practised Czerny exercises for half an hour.

Like that. Now everybody stop talking about aliasing and start doing something useful. Hoho.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Juho this is a great idea for a new thread. I totally agree with the need to learn theory....but what you said about listening to a wider variety of music really touched my heart. I would like to suggest some classic early Genesis followed by some nice B-Side OMD...and then washed down with some future pop ala PSB...and perhaps to conclude with some Cyndi Lauper. Hmmm Girls do want to have fun..... :oops:

Good idea Juho...lets make this thread work!

DS

[Wandering Kid]

i already know of things that i can do to brush up. theres ALWAYS something i could improve on.

1) learn to sight read faster. currently im shit at sight reading.

2) finally learn how to make chords diminished. i know minors/majors/sus2s/sus4s/5ths/6ths/7ths/11ths but for some reason, i dunno how to diminish a chord. dunno how to make adds either now that i think of it. if i find out, ill whack it on a list with the others and post it here cuz EVERYONE will benefit from knowing how to make chords rather than use chord libraries (one of the greatest sins of the lay musician!).

3) spend the next 4 weeks listening to EBM and electro, maybe a bit of jazz. im beginning to feel jazz again. time for some pat metheny i think. to get out of this tarnce rut im in.

4) more practical lessons :D for those who dont know what i mean, a practical session is basically a night out clubbing or any kind of music event. its hard to describe but music is so much better in a social context, booming out of gigantic PAs. i learned alot about dance tracks by hearing them out. what makes a song kick off on the dancefloor. what works and what doesnt in such a context. songs are always bass light when i produce but at PA level you can feel it hitting you in the chest and the air around you vibrates like its electricly charged. a tip to all those producers aspiring to write dancefloor stompers. hearing pro songs played out also gives you a perspective on positional audio and stereofield placement. what works in a club. what doesnt. when the sound seems all around you thats an amazing sensation. this would make a very good new years resolution to everyone here i think. i cant see how you could lose out by getting some homework done as well as having a bit of fun at the same time. :wink:

juho is right, keep your minimoogs! i got plenty of homework that still needs to be done!

[Juho L]

I'll just put up my list now:

December 8th - Practised singing for a change. Some J.Karjalainen and Genesis. A slight flu made it a bit difficult, "Join the dance! Follow oo???RGh". Also practised to play Birdland and Humoresque. Then I ended up making the remix "contest" entry and did some experiments with tone machine and looping.

[Juho L]

2) finally learn how to make chords diminished.

I'm not an expert on this (I'm not even 100% sure what diminishing is, hoho) but doesn't diminished chords just have lowered "harmonies"? For example C7 = C, E, G, Bb => Cdim7 = C, Eb, Gb, A.

3) spend the next 4 weeks listening to EBM and electro, maybe a bit of jazz. im beginning to feel jazz again. time for some pat metheny i think. to get out of this tarnce rut im in.

Nah. Spend next week listening to EBM and electro and then change to something else.

a practical session is basically a night out clubbing or any kind of music event.

Yup. Nothing beats a good live band. I'm still waiting for Nieminen & Litmanen live gig in Joensuu. Brilliant Hammond & drums duo.

[Hollowcell]

For the rest of the December, everyone forgets all tech babble and instead focuses on conrete and essential parts of music and production, like composing, mixing/mastering, playing and listening. All of you who can't play well (or at all), practise playing. Learn to read score. Learn chrods and chord theory. Widen your taste of music by listening to some totally different music you usually listen to. Try to compose/produce something different for a change. Share thoughts on composing, production, music. .

That's not gunna help my trance creations though! :D

[Onkel Dunkel]

I'm not an expert on this (I'm not even 100% sure what diminishing is, hoho) but doesn't diminished chords just have lowered "harmonies"? For example C7 = C, E, G, Bb => Cdim7 = C, Eb, Gb, A.

No, the "7" is still a "7" - Cdim7 = C, Eb, Gb, Bb. If it was C, Eb, Gb, A it would be a Cdimb7. Diminishing is a mol-chord with the kvint (is it called that in english?) lowered a half-note.

Eksample:

C = C, E, G
Cm = C, D#/Eb, G
Cdim= C, D#/Eb, F#/Gb
Cdim7 = C, D#/Eb, F#/Gb, A#/Bb

The "7" just adds the "7" (the Bb in a C-scale).

Here?s some more chord-rules:

- The number means the note number like the "6" in a C-scale is A. You count with the scale you are playing. Exsample: In a Cdur-scale 1=C, 2=D 3=E, 4=F, 5=G, 6=A, 7=Bb*.
*Exception from this rule is the "7". It is lowered a half-note or else it would be a maj-chord (or maj7 but it?s the same thing).- Another exception is "13" witch means the "6" and then "7" (6+7=13 :wink: ). Correct me if i?m wrong but isn?t C13 the same as C7add6?

- Sus is when you move the terts (is this called this in english?) one up or down like Csus2 = C, D, G and Csus4 = C, F, G.


To the original subject: I listened to Beethoven (synphonies no. 5 & 2) today :D

[Wandering Kid]

Cdim= C, D#/Eb, F#/Gb

thats all i need to know. thanks man :D well...

you know, i never understood why a C7 has a Bb in it since a scale from C doesnt have a Bb in it. the 7th note is a B. and since a Cmaj7 is C, E, G, B it makes me wonder why the hell a C7 is a C, E, G, Bb when a C scale is exactly the same as a C major scale. cuz theres no sharps or flats in a 7 note ascending scale from C.

perfect example.

C6. pure simplicity. C, E, G, A

everything after C7 (aside from the flattened B) makes sense.

C9. C, E, G, (Bb) grrr, D

C11. C, E, G, (Bb) grrr again, D, F

and the same for the 13th plus the 13th note from the root.

so...why the Bb?! why is it different from a Cmaj7, 9, 11, 13?

this is annoying because i keep asking people about this but i get the same answer pretty much all the time 'i dunno, you just have to do it.' either that or somebody fobs me off with bullshit. you wouldnt happen to know would you?

[Wandering Kid]

i just saw this...

Correct me if i?m wrong but isn?t C13 the same as C7add6?

sorry i missed it.

i dont think a C7add6 is the same as a C13. add just basically means +.
a C13 is a C chord (C, E, G) + 7th, 9th, 13th.

i.e. C13 = C, E, G, Bb, D, A

a C11 is a C chord + 7th, 9th, 11th/

i.e. C11 = C, E, G, Bb, D, F

and a C9 would be a C chord + 7th, 9th

i.e. C9 = C, E, G, Bb, D

therefore a C13 is the same as a C9add13. that is a C9 chord + 13th.

another example.

a C6add9 would be a C6 (C, E, G, A) + the 9th note (D)

C7add6 would be a C7 + 6th. thats why im not sure you can have this chord at all.

so a C7add6 should be C, E, G, Bb + A. or rather, because its in the same octave C, E, G, A, Bb. which should be C6add7. i guess you could have that.

[Onkel Dunkel]

Well in a C-scale both the 6th and 13th is an "A" so isn?t it the same thing? By the way; why do you wan?t the 9th in a C13?

C13 = C, E, G, Bb, A
C7add6 = C, E, G, Bb, A

I?ll ask my piano teacher :?


Wandering kid: The 7 is special since there?s a minor 7 (written just as "7" as in C7) and a major 7 (written "maj7" or just "maj" as in Cmaj7 or Cmaj). Not very logical i think but thats the way it work :roll:

[Wandering Kid]

heheh. C13 definitely has a 9th in it. i remember cuz its another one of those things that was never really explained to me.

the 6th 'A' is different to the 13th 'A' obviously cuz they are an octave apart. its the same key register but it'll sound different in terms of pitch and frequency which is an important distinction.

the reason we use 'add' is when we want to add 9th or 11th or 13th or whatever single notes to an existing chord, but not the notes in between. only really applies with the larger chords.

if a C13 is C, E, G, Bb, D, A

a C9add13 would a C9 chord (C, E, G, Bb, D) + 13th (A)

by extension

a C7add13 would a C7 chord (C, E, G, Bb) + 13th (A)

no 9th.

so a C7 add 6 = C, E, G, Bb + the 6th note of the scale A (not the 13th A which has a much higher frequency)

because you are counting up that would kind of mean you are playing C, E, G, A, Bb

which i thought would be C6 + 7th. im confused about that example and it would be cool if you could check with your piano teacher to clear this up

[Blank]

Are you guys sure that a C7 is even in the scale of C? Bb kinda makes me think that its the V7 of F which makes sense CEGBb would be what you would use is you wanted the V7 of the I in Fmaj...

But i could be wrong im use to the Roman numerals!! The whole guitar theory/ jazz theory system...not sure what to call it is a bit different than what im use to...

As for Diminished: A diminished triad consists of a minor third and a diminished fifth above the root, or two minor thirds from the root upward
(ie-E-Ab-Cb known as a Diminished fifth[d5])

As for Augmented: Am augmented triad consists of a major third and an augmented fifth above the root, or two major thirds from the root upward.
(ie- E-A-C# known as an Augmented fifth [A5])

Also note you can invert a d5 and get an A4....

peace
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[Wandering Kid]

Are you guys sure that a C7 is even in the scale of C? Bb kinda makes me think that its the V7 of F which makes sense CEGBb would be what you would use is you wanted the V7 of the I in Fmaj...

sorry but... flew. over. my head. whooooooooooooooosh. could you maybe explain this in english? parle vous anglais ? :D

[Onkel Dunkel]

*seaching* where the f*ck is that "V" and "I" on my keyboard. Could you tell me how to do a Vsus4 :lol:

[Wandering Kid]

hmmmm. your keyboard must be different from mine...

http://up1.fastuploads.info/super_keyboard.JPG[/url]

[Blank]

Dominant 5th or V7 chords!

I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii
Major Scale- if you count the roman numerals you will realize for F it would be as follows

F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E

Then you take a C7 chord

C-E-G-Bb---which understanding how you make a chord is by every other letter of the scale and then you can invert it unless of course you are using non harmonic tones, like passing tone neighboring tone, suspension, Retardation, Anticipation, Appoggiatura, Escape tone, Successive neighbors, and pedal....so you can start with say F of the scale and know that F A C is a chord...notice every other letter...I believe writing it makes it easier to understand rather then learning just chords...and if im right about the C7 then an F7 would be as follows: F# A# C# E? correct? This would make it a dominant 7th or the Tonic or V7 of I!!

As for Vsus4? You will be able to start using suspension chords much easier is you read on how they are used and not the chord itself...they are a non harmonic tone that can be used harmonically...but tend to work better non harmonically or chromatically...what i am saying is you will get the most out of a suspension when it is placed in a spot where you resolve it...The 4 3 suspension or 4 is used when you suspend a note a fourth above the root or I...(ie A-C-E then to A-E-B then resolves to G-E-B) so the A is a fouth above E...so technically you would say that AEB is a sus4 chord...so you could say that you can take the 3rd out of a chord and replace it with a 4th and you will get a sus4 chord... so C-F-G, A-D-E, G-C-B....blah blah blah....but its not really good to think of it this way because its not really a chord...its a melodic tool to give a piece more excitment, conflict, and interest! And thats just Sus4 we still have the others!!

peace
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[Blank]

Actually if you think about it your keyboard doesnt have CDEFGAB either!!

peace
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[Juho L]

hmmmm. your keyboard must be different from mine...

http://up1.fastuploads.info/super_keyboard.JPG[/url]

Muahahaha! Classic!

[Hollowcell]

Hehehe, the Tarnce keyboard is direct competition for the TRS1000!

Classic. :D

[Blank]

Anyone here have anything to say about what i wrote? I thought we were discussing music not putting down Tarnce, Tceho, gao, durm adn bsas, flok, rcock adn rlol, or ppo music :lol:

you get the point!! :wink:

peace
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[Onkel Dunkel]

Not sure that it made any sence to mee :? I?ve never heard of using roman numerals but that might just be me :oops:

As to return to the C13 vs. C7add6; i asked my piano teacher who said that he had never heard of a C7add6 beacuse it would be the same thing as a C13. The only reason that he could see for using a C7add6 is if you specificly wan?t to leave the 9th out. He also said that you could take the 9th out of a C13 if desired just as it is possible to remove the 5th to remain the same complexity throughout the melody. Futhermore he told me that it didn?t make any difference if the 13th was an octave above or not. It would still be a 13-cord. It could actually be below as you can transform a cord anyway you like just it?s the same tones. Often you play the cords in the right hand without the tonica (example C in a C7 cord) bacause you play it in the bas with your left hand. Even somtimes you can play a 4/4 bas go-around (or whatever it?s called) divided into 1/4 notes with the tonica as startpoint and just play the cord stacato one 1/8 note after the tonica. It gives the song more life compared to just playing the cord and bas together...

[Wandering Kid]

Not sure that it made any sence to mee I?ve never heard of using roman numerals but that might just be me

yea ive never heard of it either. the rest of your post sort of made sense.

but a C13 without the 9th isnt the same. it sounds different. if you kept the 9th and added the 11th aswell it sounds wrong too.

the bit about playing the tonica on the bass note made sense though but surely it would all depend on where you play the root note as to where the 13th would be?

Anyone here have anything to say about what i wrote? I thought we were discussing music not putting down Tarnce, Tceho, gao, durm adn bsas, flok, rcock adn rlol, or ppo music

i was just showing onkel how you can play a Vsus2 on my 1337 keyboard. note that O minor / M major 7th is graet chord combo for tarnce!1 turn the tarnce wheel all the way up and keep it in armin mode.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Hehehe, the Tarnce keyboard is direct competition for the TRS1000!

Classic. :D

LOl i thought I'd become dyslexic for a second there. Phew.... :lol:

DS

[Panopticon]

Ok, in December I'm going to learn to be a better guitarist. I've never learned how to do fretboard-tapping leads very well, and I also need to study up in modes other than Dorian.

After that, I'm going to go out and find something to make me inspired again.

Juho, I think this was an excellent idea for a thread.

[jasedee]

Juho, I think this was an excellent idea for a thread.
Yes, apart from some hijacking Osama would be proud of.......

[Onkel Dunkel]

the bit about playing the tonica on the bass note made sense though but surely it would all depend on where you play the root note as to where the 13th would be?

It dosn?t matter which octave the 13th lie in. I?ll still be a C13. Just play what sound best to you...

That?s what he said :roll:

[Blank]

I cannot believe you guys have never heard of using Roman numerals!! Buy a theory book im sure you will see it in there...not a theory for guitar not a theory for piano...just a music theory book! not jazz theory or rock theory either...like a book you would buy for a class in music theory...or maybe something like counterpoint...you have heard of counterpoint havent you?

peace
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[Onkel Dunkel]

Ehhmm, never heard of a counterpoint but maybe that?s because i don?t know what it?s called in danish :? By the way i saw your roman numerals on a music theory web-site but i don?t know how it works. Never used it...

[Juho L]

not jazz theory or rock theory either...

Hoho. Or samba theory or even ragtime theory.

[Blank]

The basic synopsis of it is this...for every scale degree there is a roman numeral...ie a major scale

C D E F G A B
I ii iii IV V vi vii

G A B C D E F#
I ii iii IV V vi vii

As for upper case and lower case you can get into that later...

this way if you are making a chord you have a bit less confusion and have a better understanding of the functionality of the chord and its relation to the root...

ie if you have a chord Gmaj7b5 you would right it as V7 or V7 of I
because you would know that G is the 5th of the scale of C and its a 7th chord...also instead of writting letters and figuring out what Gmin, G7add9, Gmaj6...to write its all general and is all related to the scale you are in...quick for site reading...It seems odd until you start learning it...its all just a replacement of the notes so you have no mix up between numbers and letters...ie I6

in Cmaj this would be a CEG chord in first inversion or EGC

I hope this helps but it probably wont!!

peace
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peace
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[Wandering Kid]

well you are right that its easier for sight reading but you still need to know what you are doing. heheh. if you dunno how to play a Gmaj7, whichever way you write it, you'll still be stumped. i wrote down a few random basic notes and played them sort of in sequence but i still cant really sight read it properly (still too slow. my mental arithmetic is appalling).

[Onkel Dunkel]

I?m not sure what to make of this. I think the Gmaj7b5 system makes more sence :?

About the uppercase letters:

I: Tonica
IV: Subdominant
V: Dominant

Am i right?

[Blank]

That is correct about the upper/lower case but there is more...upper case is major lower is minor!!
if you took some time to study im sure you would find this way being much quicker...

peace
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[Onkel Dunkel]

Maybe, but i just never used it before. Maybe i?m not that far in theory yet :wink: