I got my new computer today

[3o3]

Today 3o3 is a very happy boy. I recived my new computer 30 minutes ago. I've been busy installing everything.

The computer is an:

Athlon 64 XP3200+ processor
768 MB DDR-RAM/400MHz
250GB SATA harddrive
DVD/DVD+RW+R drive dual
Nvidia GeForce FX5500/256MB TV-out
MS Windows XP home

It has some nice blue LEDs/lights glowing. Oh the feeling!

[jasedee]

Great news mate!

Now you dont even have to worry about going out, as you have everything you need in your bedroom!!!!!

Time for some music-making!

:)

[3o3]

Yah. I am so happy today

[Juho L]

Time for some "benchmarks".

http://koti.mbnet.fi/djtuppu/SX2test/

If you have SX2 try that test. Add tracks until your computer can't handle it anymore.

[F5D]

Great to see that my performance test came here too.. :D

Not many people were interested in testing their machines in other forums. Maybe they took it like a competition or something. In fact I don't use SX2 anymore. I switched to Logic7 for some time ago.

[AlexHall74]

Congrats 3o3!

I'm still sharing a PC with my wife so I can't get shit done half the time!

AAACHH!!!!

-AlexHall74

[Juho L]

Great to see that my performance test came here too.. :D

Hoho. What a coincidence. I saw that link posted by Sami Sumea in muusikoiden.net.

Not many people were interested in testing their machines in other forums. Maybe they took it like a competition or something. In fact I don't use SX2 anymore. I switched to Logic7 for some time ago.

Probably so. I'd like to know how 3o3's PC performs on that one because I'm switching to 3500+ 64 system soon and I'd like to get some pointer on how much faster will it be compared to my current 1400 XP.

[Hollowcell]

Great news 303! I am definitely jealous and my Celeron 800 has processor envy. Lucky bastard you are.

[blay]

good stuff mate :D

im keen to hear how your athlon64 performs as well :wink:

congrats on the new addition
cheers
pete

[Wandering Kid]

what midi interface ya got? it looks pretty schexy as is but hey, a presonus firepod on top of that setup would make it spooge worthy.

[3o3]

Going from happy to extremly sad, disapointed and mad.

Why? The computer didn't even work for 24 hours. - and no i am not kidding.

-"Errr.. what are you talking about 3o3?".

Long story short; i was installing Reason + Cubase. All of the sudden the computer starts to load and load and load and load and load (you get the picture). Since it has a feature called something like; Cool and quiet which means that whenever the CPU isn't used 100% it goes down in speed - it clocks down which prolongs the life of the CPU. And i start to think; hey it's alright - it's all good, an installation can't take 100% of an AMD 64 3200+ CPU.

So i go an watch some television, when i come back it says -> "Windows can't locate blablabla.dll - please use checkdisc to see what's wrong". I press "Ok" and press the start-menu, which works fine and whenever i try to click any of the icons the all the 'links' starts to jump 'around'.

That's odd to say the least. I'll just find the program thru "This computer" on the desktop instead - now this i shouldn't have done. I press it and it comes up; "Major fault in windows xp blablabla press ok" "Ok" "Windows can't locate veryimportantfile.dll press ok" "Ok" "Windows is missing muliple .dll files press ok" "O...." *beep*.

Errrrrrrrrrrr....... what the fuck? I press the powerbutton; nothing happends. I wait like 10 minutes and all of the sudden the computer reboots.

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.... does this thing have it's own little life?

Everything seems fine until when it's about to open start XP up. *beep*. It takes about 3 minutes for it all of the sudden to reboot again; Aha - faulty powersupply? After going thru the computer i can assure it isn't any virus first of all. It's not the powersupply either. So i think; i'll just let this be and let my brother have a go and see if he can find the fault.

Aha; The windows XP installation is corrupted (oh, i do hate windows xp).
We install windows 2000 pro instead; it works great for about 20 minutes when all of the sudden the same problem. but this time i get the error; "Can't read from C:\????" Errrrrrrrrr.. Now i am starting to get really pissed at this computer

We reboot it again; what happends now it can't find the harddrive. We check bios and it finds the harddrive. We reboot. It can't find the harddrive . we check the bios it finds the harddrive.

It reboots ok, but this time it claims that i've got an CPU with the lightning-speed of 100MHZ. and this time it isn't the cool and quiet-feature since we un-checked the box.

All of the sudden it wants to reboot - sure thing; when it reboots it can't find any OS-installation whatsoever. I put the windows 2000-cd back in and guess what? my harddrive is completly empty. Aha! Faulty harddrive. Oh no since the installation goes smooth and it works but now it claims that the CPU running at a even lightning speed of 101mhz. Aha! faulty CPU? Oh no. Reboot and it works fine. but now the RAM is missing instead claming that i've only got a whopping 32megs of ram. Aha! Faulty ram? Oh no. Aha doesn't get enough power from the outlet i am using? Oh no. That doesn't work either.

I call the support now because i am so _pissed_ off. "Have you checked that the computer wasn't faulty when you got it?" "How am i supposed to check any hardware problems without booting the computer up?" "Well, did you see any visible damages to the computer." "Errr.. no, if i've would have seen it i would have sent it back to you". "Thats good" "Errr. yes, since i am not going to pay for anything that's broken" "Well, it's not broken.. you just gotta install everything correct" "Yes, i know that - and that's why i got my brother here who works as an computer-tech." "That's good, let me talk to him instead".

We follow his direction and do _everything_ he says. Still the same problem. from each reboot i get another hardware-problem so in the end the computer-tech says that we should flash the motherboard with a new bios instead. We do that. guess what? it didn't help at all. We have tried alot of different versions of windows xp/2000/NT- we have even tried installing win98. and still it doesn't work.

And all of this the tech-guy at the company said that we should do - now the even more funny part.

I've spent 10 minutes in telephone with them and after alot of fighting i get this answer from my demand (which is give me an computer that works); Since you installed windows 2000 on it and it came with windows XP you gotta pay for a new Windows XP licence and the cost of sending your new computer out, sending your old computer back here and the insurance-cost.

Which comes to around 4900:- SEK. My rent is 4500:- SEK. I get 8200:- SEK / month. It's fucking x-mas coming up aswell. Fucking hell. I am so fucked up mad right now.

How the hell could i see that the whole computer was faulty without even starting the fucking think up first? it didn't have any bumps/scratchmarks or anything that could be the reason for the faulty hardware _inside_(since not even the tech-guy at the company couldn't come to any other conclusion that it's gotta be some major hardware-fault in the computer).

I am trying to find the number to where you can call if you feel that you have been mistreated by a store. I can't remember what it's called again.

Right now the computer wont shut off aswell as boot up properly for me so it just stands there looking like crap.

This for me is another reason _why_ computer should be banned from my home. I am so unlucky with computers.

[jasedee]

Man.....at this point in time I would really love to talk about MacOS, and go on and on about how PC's are crap (unless someone who knows their shit w/audio built it) BUT......I wont!

I know you've heard it all before.......

Sorry to hear about your troubles mate....Im sure you will sort it out soon

[3o3]

Arf, that's no problem mate. I've had really unusual problems with a mac aswell.

Computers hate me. And i hate them. But for some odd reason things are looking abit brighter for me now.

They called me back and said that i should do some more tests and if those doesn't work. They'll send a person to pick it up and i'll get a new computer and a 'bonus' since they said; we have experienced some problems with this configuration so maybe there is a hardware-fault somewhere

[AlexHall74]

Bonus?

Tell them to throw in a copy of Native Instruments Komplete 2 and a six pack of beer and then they can call it even.

;)

-AlexHall74

[Juho L]

This is really strange. Seems like 3o3 is a man of misfortune. He always has totally rotten luck with everything.

[Nigel Harkness]

I had some skeptisism when I bought a Dell Inspiration 9100 series about 2 1/2 months ago but it hasn't given me a problem yet. It is a beast,

2.8 Ghz
1 Gig ddr ram
60 gig 7200 rpm Harddrive
Windows XP Home

and for sound card/ midi controller is use a M-Audio Ozone.

[3o3]

Alex: They have offered me: 512ram + a better graphiccard.

Juho: I am not kidding. I am no angel but whatever i did to get this kind of luck is way beyond me, I just don't get it.

Nigel: Congrats that your computer is working alot better than mine.

Anyways, the tech-guy was here and left the problem is a faulty motherboard so he is even unsure why the computer even started in the first place. Odd.

Anyways, I still gotta think about their offer. I feel that even if its a really good bonus i'll get; what if the next computer has some faults in it aswell? I mean they didn't offer me anything before i threatend to call that thing where you can turn as a customer if the deal has gone wrong.

Well, yesterday was a day of celebration, today is a day of sadness. So i'll stick with my beer + celebrate my girlfriends birthday

Edit: Ms Fortuna really don't like me at all. Like i said before; i am going way back in technology - I am thinking of getting rid of the electrics in this apartment - that way no other electronic appliance can break, but the the home will probably burn down to the ground due to the fact that i gotta have candles for my source of light during the evenings

[Nigel Harkness]

3o3 - sorry about my post didn't mean to boast, I kind of left the question out: is this a name brand computer or built for audio specifically?

[3o3]

Nigel: Oh hehe. I didn't mean it like that - I mean that its great that your computer is working nice.

It's a modified name brand computer. I changed to motherboard to be more suitable for audio since the original was really bad. And what i got was the motherboard that was supposed to sit in there if i _didnt_ modify it.

But the tech-guy thought that the motherboard itself looked really odd - and he changed it so it's up and running again the computer; but it seems to be a really unstable configuration right now. He still gets that odd "Can't read from the harddrive"-error so it seems like the harddrive is busted aswell. Since everytime we install any OS whatsoever it boots up perfect after about 20 minutes it gets a cant load .dll file "ok" and it reboots and it cant boot up properly but it finds the harddrive in the bios + it formats itself all the time. I am not kidding; the tech-guy is looking like a questionmark himself; he got spare-parts here with him, but he is trying to figure out what parts are damaged besides the motherboard.

It's a disaster acctually; i feel quite down for it. but i know it will be alright in the end (it usually works out just fine) but i what i really hate is the simple fact; you buy something for quite alot of money and it breaks in no time.

I'll give the company a call again and see what more i can get out of this situation.

[3o3]

About 390 minutes ago the tech-guy left; and guess what? my computer works again!!!!!

Wohoo. What he needed to was to; change the 256meg RAM-card which was faulty, the harddrive which stopped working + motherboard. and he said - I am coming over in a few days upgrading your graphicscard + another 512 ram-card but i'll see if i can find an extra AMD Athlon 3500+ CPU! How's that for an bonus??

I am so happy today (again) - WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. A new graphiccard, ram and (if he could find) another CPU. + i didn't need to pay for it. (Even if i wouldnt pay for the insurance and so on, since it wasnt my fault after all)

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Glad you sorted this 3o3. From reading your first couple of posts....it sounded real bad. Have no fear....computers somtimes mess up....but remember....theres nothing in a computer that cant be replaced!

Merry xmas hurray

DS

[3o3]

Thanks DS.

Yah, computers really act strange sometimes - however i still think its hillarious that the tech-guy still wonders how i even was able to boot the r computer up in the first place.

Althou i should sell this and get cv/gate-sequencers instead. now there is something that really holds for you

[Hollowcell]

I am so happy today (again) - WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. A new graphiccard, ram and (if he could find) another CPU. + i didn't need to pay for it. (Even if i wouldnt pay for the insurance and so on, since it wasnt my fault after all)

All's well that ends well! Nice to hear it all was sorted. Fuckin computers (no matter what company builds them Jase - hehe).

So I'm guessing we will hear some nice tracks from 303 in the near future then?

[mcoyote]

...What he needed to was to; change the 256meg RAM-card which was faulty...

It's rare but I have had SIMM/DIMMs go bad in the past and sometimes they contine to actually function but just randomly corrupt memory. That inevitably means the OS will have a stroke and start grinding up the data on disk. Once the registry and system key are messed up, it's done.

I am on my third Mac and probably my 10th PC. They are commodities. OSX (even Panther) just doesn't aspire to do what Windows does, that is, be the bitch of every piece of spyware and maladjusted shareware that comes down the pike, so it tends to go longer between siezures.

My original Mac, however -- a PowerMac 6?00 with a PPC 604 (upgraded later to a G3 card) -- threw a motherboard and hard drive about a week out of warranty. To their credit, the Apple support guy on the phone made the call and my baby was fully restored, $0.

My Newton 2001 (still have it, ashamed to show it) developed some irregularities once and I got good help from a nice college girl on Apple support somewhere the midwest. After we took care of that, we chatted on their dime for, like, two hours more (sounded hot, at least).

Weird company, let's just say that. Meanwhile, I've had about five Dells, most of which have developed issues at some point or another, but I've always opted for their on-site support and they show up all neat and tidy at my house and set everything straight (what's not to like?).

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Thats strange.....ive always bought Dell and never had any issues with them. I still think they are the most reliable pc out there.

DS

[mcoyote]

Thats strange.....ive always bought Dell and never had any issues with them. I still think they are the most reliable pc out there.

DS

Being in IT for a while I would say that, compared to say Gateway or a lot of screwdriver shop units, they are more reliable. That said, it's a good plus that their service is very responsive *and* they sell all of their refurbished/returned/demo units off of their website.

[Nigel Harkness]

Thats strange.....ive always bought Dell and never had any issues with them. I still think they are the most reliable pc out there.

DS

I love my dell!!

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=dell+9100/v=2/SID=e/l=IVI/SIG=11q15esqs/*-http%3A//www.onlinekosten.de/news/bilder/9100_front.jpg

[Juho L]

I think getting a brand computer is a mistake. A better way is to write down a list of requirements for a computer and tell pro people at computer store (a good and real computer store) to compile one for you. This way you get exactly what you want and need.

[mcoyote]

I think getting a brand computer is a mistake. A better way is to write down a list of requirements for a computer and tell pro people at computer store (a good and real computer store) to compile one for you. This way you get exactly what you want and need.

At least in the states, the cost of a branded machine -- esp. a Dell -- that's close enough to what you want (and there are a lot of options, even with those) is usually less. On top of that, the support infrastructure of a company like that can't be overlooked.

Dell service people have come to a hotel room of mine thousands of miles from my home to fix something. I've had two displays and two keyboards go on my PowerBook G4 (toddler damage) and Apple got the unit back to me -- via overnight shipping -- in three days every time.

[AlexHall74]

Mcoyote wrote:
On top of that, the support infrastructure of a company like that can't be overlooked.

Dell's consumer service is great but they suck when it comes to servicing their corporate accounts.

My Dad, brother, wife and I sold turnkey optical imaging systems in the mid nineties and every time our clients wanted new PCs we sold them Dells as we loved them.

A client of ours in Fort Worth Texas wanted 28 PCs each with an Adaptec SCSI card to control a scanner and an internal Iomega JAZ Drive for file storage.

My wife and I were checked into two adjoining hotel rooms, one for u, one for our PC customization/assembly zone.

Here comes the delivery truck, out come 56 boxes (28 PCs + 28 Monitors).

Dell delivered the wrong F*CK*&G PCs!

There was no 5 1/4 inch expansion bay to install the internal JAZ drives.

I told the truck driver to wait and called our Dell rep.

He said "Oh my God, I'm terribly sorry."

I said: "How long will it take you to make 28 new PCs to our original specifications?"

He said: "1 week"

I said: "OK, great start the order."

He said: "I can't start the order without a deposit."

I said: "You dumb *@&@%!$!&!!" We paid you in full for 28 PCs and you @%!#$@ them up; there is your deposit."

He said: "I need those back in our inventory before I can use that money as a deposit to start a new order."

I said: "Well I'm sending these 28 PCs back with the driver."

He said: "He's not a DELL employee; he's an independent subcontrator; you will have to pay for the shipping."

I about lost my fucking wits. There I was in Ft. Worth Texas about 6 hours drive from DELL's fucking HQ, they screwed up my order of 28 PCs, and they weren't going to cut a new order or pay for the return shipping ($1,400 next day because of the weight) of the original deal.

I told him I would see him the next day.

I rented a U-Haul truck for $85. I loaded the 28 PCs into it and drove from Ft. Worth to Austin (6 hours) to Dell's main facility. I pulled my little truck around the back of their super complex and backed it into a loading dock; blocking 2 other trucks that were trying to deliver parts. Some asshole dock foreman came out and told me to move my vehicle. I told him I wanted to see my rep, get my PCs that they fucked up credited to my account, and see that the new order of 28 was underway and would be drop shipped to my client in less than the week they told me over the phone.

The guy shit he was so mad because I was blocking his loading zone. I lit up a cigarrette, leaned against my U-Haul and hung out for about 20 minutes until my rep (pale white) and his manager (beet red with anger) came out to the loading area and took care of me. They couldn't believe that I did that. I read them both the riot act.

I'll never buy a DELL again; just for the principle of the situation.

They are great PCs though.

-AlexHall74

[3o3]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Insane story there Alex.

If someone did the same thing here they would have been arrested and possible have so serve atleast some community-service

[jasedee]

With audio, you need someone who knows audio/PC's to build your computer....

Not some dude in a computer store who owns FL....

Not some dude at DELL who owns an iPod.......

And definately dont think you can chose parts and build a computer for audio by yourself (unless of course you are an experienced audio/PC guy)

There are these guys out there, and they will build you a rock solid PC that will even maybe be as good as a Mac (;) )

[Hollowcell]

That is a great story Alex (well in a horror sort of a way). I think I may have taken the passive-agressive route and static shocked a few of the machines before giving them back. :wink:

[Juho L]

And definately dont think you can chose parts and build a computer for audio by yourself (unless of course you are an experienced audio/PC guy)

Nah. It's not a rocket science. Just keep in mind that cheap doesn't work. Using quality components there will be no problems. The most cruicial component is a motherboard (and it's usually 99% the one that causes compatibility issues). Getting a cheap Epox mobo will lead you intro trouble sooner or later, but getting one from a realiable manufacturer like Abit won't cause any issues.

I've compiled several PC's and each of them has worked well without any problems. In school few years back we had a computer course and part of that course was to compile four computers. So we did a little test: For one PC we bought the cheapest parts we could find, for two computers average parts and one PC with a bit better components. The two average PC's and the better one worked well and the only one with problems was the cheap piece of junk.

The one reason why I don't get brand computers is that there is always something that has been used to bring down the price. Cheap memory, crappy picky mainboard with everything integrated, etc. The brand computer works 100% when you take them out of package and plug them in, but the fun starts when you add components in those things. Somethimes there are no problems at all and sometimes you loose your mental health.

For audio stuff (or any other kind of work that needs special components) I'd really recommend custom PC. Hell with the guarantee. What do you do with the guarantee if the guarantee doesn't apply to the added components and their compatbility. When you get custom PC you get:

1. Exactly what you want with nothing useless extra.
2. 100% compatible system. No need to fear adding extra components.
3. Usually totally silent computer. Brand computers usually have average fans that can be annoyingly loud especially when recording with sensitive mics. For custom computer you can have totally silent cooling.

[AlexHall74]

3o3 wrote:
REF: Alex's DELL incident...
"If someone did the same thing here they would have been arrested and possible have so serve atleast some community-service"

I was desperate and pissed off. They made me look like an ass in front of my client. I wish I would have thought of Hollow Cell's idea on top of it:

Hollow Cell wrote:
I think I may have taken the passive-agressive route and static shocked a few of the machines before giving them back.

How funny would THAT have been? :lol:

Alex to Dell:
"Well, here are the 28 shitty PCs you sent me; now I want my new ones. Can't you guys make computers that even boot up? Come on! This is DELL, right?

Hollow Cell, I will be sure to consult you in the future for passive-aggressive retaliatory options that will allow me to irritate those that have wronged me while preserving my own time and blood pressure. I hope your rates are good, a lot of people have pissed me off this year with needless shite! :x

Cheers everyone!

I am off to try and figure out Multi-Mode again!

-AlexHall74

[Juho L]

http://www.carillondirect.com/clnweb/performance.jsp?country=UK

[F5D]

I don't understand why they test cubase/nuendo with G5. Cubase/Nuendo is not even near as well optimized for G5 as the logic is.

I made a simple Cubase SX2 performance test earlier when I still used Cubase. My Athlon64 3200+ machine could run 25 of similar test tracks. My friend's G5 DP1.8 & SX2 could run 34 of those tracks without clicks and pops. So the mac result was 36% better than the pc result in cubase.

In logic 5.5.1 & 3200+ a64 I got 72 platinum verbs. My new g5 dp1.8 however can run twise the amount, 144 platinum verbs. So the mac can run 100% more plugins compared to the exactly same pc-machine which I ran the cubase-test with. See?

I know that apple uses some stupid comparisons between machines and some softwares as do all the other companies too but this carillon's test was a very stupid one because it doesn't give you any idea how powerful the G5 really is. It just tells you how fast a certain program can run.

I mean that it was not very wise of carillon to put a G5 to the same test with pc computers when running cubase as a test program, because it's all up to steinberg why it runs so slowly on mac. The results would have been upside down if they tested with logic audio (logic 5.5.1 @ pc & logic 6 or logic 7 @ mac).

In fact logic pro 7 flies @ DP1.8 G5. I can load a huge amount of plugins and the cpu meters don't even move very much. And I have also noticed that once the cpu bars have rised to a certain height they may stay at that position even I load many other plugins too. I can say that this is the first time I don't have to worry about overriding my computer's calculation power. I haven't reached the 50% cpu performance yet altough I have tried.

Also I wouldn't have even bought a mac if I wanted to run cubase. I just wanted to switch to logic because it offers so much more bang for the buck than cubase does.

I just had to say something cause I saw the carillon test setup. :wink:

[Juho L]

I mean that it was not very wise of carillon to put a G5 to the same test with pc computers when running cubase as a test program, because it's all up to steinberg why it runs so slowly on mac. The results would have been upside down if they tested with logic audio (logic 5.5.1 @ pc & logic 6 or logic 7 @ mac).

So it's ok to run the test on a software that haven't been updated for PC well over a year? Hoho.

It's always difficult to compare Mac and PC due the huge software differences. If the comparisation had be done it should be done with 3rd party VSTi's. For example use Logic 7 on Mac and SX3 (which has 64-bit support by the way, yay!) on PC and then start stacking certain plugins, like Arturia Minimoog V2's with certain patch and then add plugins until the machine can't handle it anymore. The test could also be done on several different plugins, like Z3ta+, Absynth3, Kontakt, etc and then calculate the average. That would give 100% objective results.

[F5D]

So it's ok to run the test on a software that haven't been updated for PC well over a year? Hoho.

At least it would be more fair comparison than the cubase test because the platinum verb plugin hasn't changed from logic5 -> logic7 and the logic5.5.1 @ pc is very light to run too. Logic7 only has been coded to run on G5. The plugin itself is the same. Also using cubase's audio engine @ mac when testing third party plugins is not optimal.

And in my case it was 100% fair comparison, because I was about to continue working with logic 5.5.1 @ pc instead of cubase but I still wanted to upgrade to logic7.

Well it doesn't really matter what plugins you use. I have tested some third party plugins aswell and they are very light to run, partly because the plugins run thru the logic's well optimized audio engine. In fact there are 2 cpu bars in logic and compared to my athlon 3200+, each bar moves similarly as the cpu bar in cubase with the athlon pc. The only difference is that there are 2 of those cpu bars now which you can run full.

There's not very much difference between an amd opteron and Apple/IBM G5 processors. A dual opteron system is also a very powerful machine and comparable to a G5 dual computer.

At least these tests show that if you want to use cubase, you buy a pc and if it's logic, then you buy a mac, of course, because there are no more updates for logic pc version.

I will try Crystal with both machines now and compare....

Edit: Ok, I tested 1 instance of Crystal synth and in SX2.2 it took about 10% of 3200+ a64. Similarly, 1 instance in logic pro 7 took about 10% of one G5 1.8GHz. The other processor showed 0%. I don't have time now to test both machines with the maximum load but I think it doesn't change much from this result.

[Hollowcell]

Hollow Cell, I will be sure to consult you in the future for passive-aggressive retaliatory options that will allow me to irritate those that have wronged me while preserving my own time and blood pressure. I hope your rates are good, a lot of people have pissed me off this year with needless shite! :x


If I can see that the person on the receiving end deserves it, then my imagination will have no price tag. Kind of like the Robin Hood of passive-aggressive tactics. :D

Now back to the Mac Vs PC debate.........

[F5D]

Now back to the Mac Vs PC debate.........

Haha! No, we don't have to depate about that anymore! :D
I just had to say something cause I saw the carillon's test setup. :wink:

[Juho L]

At least it would be more fair comparison than the cubase test because the platinum verb plugin hasn't changed from logic5 -> logic7 and the logic5.5.1 @ pc is very light to run too. Logic7 only has been coded to run on G5. The plugin itself is the same. Also using cubase's audio engine @ mac when testing third party plugins is not optimal.

Err... So testing with Cubase is not good because it's not optimised to G5 and testing with Logic is good because it has an vintage version of it on PC which is not optimised to A64? Not logic in here. ?hih. There's no point in that comparisation because the older software performs naturally wrose than the updated Logic 7 which supports 64-bit system. As I said only way to do an objective conrete testing is by using 3rd party plugins within an updated sequencer (Logic7, SX3).

Whenn I'll get my system up and running I'll do some benchmarks.

[F5D]

I think you didn't quite get my point here. I'm trying to say that in this case Carillon have included a G5 system in the comparison too, because they know that it doesn't run cubase well (because the code is not very efficient) and they want to give customer an illusion that carillon machines are super fast compared to macs. See? Apple sure has done something similar with some other tests which can be found on their own site, but what really matters is how the system really performs with the software you want to use. Isn't that the most important thing here? Like I said, don't buy a mac if you want to use cubase because cubase runs better on pc. There are also many other programs which mac can run alot faster than any pc. It's only up to what program you want to use.

It's quite obvious that Steinberg has been doing much more work with the cubase/nuendo pc version than the mac version because cubase is the leading sequencer for pc platform and they want to keep it that way. However on mac the logic is the leading sequencer now. Apple is behind both logic (application) and mac osx (operating system) so it has a vantage over every other manufacturer because it knows exactly how the OS is coded and how to achieve the most efficient code for an application. Also what happened when apple bought emagic, they put all the emagic's optional plugins (worth over 1000 euro) together with logic platinum and named it "Logic Pro". Only a very big company can do this radical decision and that was amongst the other things a real sign that apple wanted logic to be n.1 sequencer on mac.

As I see this, I think Steinberg supports mac only because there are still some old cubase users who use mac. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they declared that Cubase will be discontinued on mac and continues only on pc (sure not what I want but it's possible). It was a real shock when apple/emagic told the same about logic & pc. I have read from many places that the new SX3 performs even worse than the sx2 on mac so maybe there's something that Steinberg could improve in their code. Compared to logic, the v.7 runs a little faster than v.6. People have reported that their projects run with less cpu than before.

Err... So testing with Cubase is not good because it's not optimised to G5 and testing with Logic is good because it has an vintage version of it on PC which is not optimised to A64? Not logic in here. ?hih. There's no point in that comparisation because the older software performs naturally wrose than the updated Logic 7 which supports 64-bit system. As I said only way to do an objective conrete testing is by using 3rd party plugins within an updated sequencer (Logic7, SX3).

About the processor technology...

If you didn't already know, a 64bit processor doesn't give any performance boost in calculation in real life. It only increases the memory amount you can use. And like at pc platform there's no 64bit windows available yet for music production, neither is there 64bit osx available for mac! So both Windows XP and Mac OSX 10.3.7 still use 32bit code. And if the operating system cannot work @ 64bit, neither does any program which runs in that OS. Moving to 64bit doesn't affect the performance that much, it has been tested and it's about 1% more power or not even that. The only performance boost will come from the extra memory which the processor can use and if the program even needs that much memory. So logic5 isn't that "vintage" at all compared to logic7, because they both use 32bit code. I know many people who still use logic5 and they wouldn't like to hear it's "vintage".

And like I said, I was about to switch from cubase sx2 to logic 5 pc version. I liked the logic that much and it still performs very well with pc too. Usually an older program is also faster to run. Logic5 runs even a little better with a64 than with intel p4 altough it "hasn't been optimized" for a64. Also the logic5 can run more of the same vst-plugins than the new SX2. Surprised?

So my comparison WAS fair because I definitely wanted to use logic and could have continued using the Logic5 and have a performance of 72 platinum verbs which is already a very good result. However I wanted to get a new version of logic and the new plugins and tools to work with so I had to switch from pc to mac. So if my mac now has twice the power compared to my pc, that's not fair or has to be a misunderstanding? I don't get it. Should I use cubase on mac too to get real results? Come on!

I don't want to sound mean, but you should study a little bit more of what you're talking about, altough you're a moderator. :)
And altough it says in my information bar, that I'm a "complete newbie", in real life I'm not. :wink:

Whenn I'll get my system up and running I'll do some benchmarks.

Ok, no problem...

[Juho L]

I'm trying to say that in this case Carillon have included a G5 system in the comparison too, because they know that it doesn't run cubase well (because the code is not very efficient) and they want to give customer an illusion that carillon machines are super fast compared to macs. See?

Ah. Yes.

If you didn't already know, a 64bit processor doesn't give any performance boost in calculation in real life. It only increases the memory amount you can use.

Well, of course the new technology allows improving the structure that the clock speed can be increased. But let's not forget that processing double int's, double floats and other 32-bit data structures is faster with 64-bit system due the improved structure (the accumulator on 64-bit processor is bigger)

And like at pc platform there's no 64bit windows available yet for music production, neither is there 64bit osx available for mac!

I thought OSX already had 64-bit system. The 64-bit Windows XP beta has been around for a while. It has some bugs in running some 32-bit programs, but with it SX3 could run in true 64-bit mode. The official release of Windows XP64 would be late winter/spring. I hope they get it done until then.

Moving to 64bit doesn't affect the performance that much, it has been tested and it's about 1% more power or not even that.

Hmm... This is not right. The increase is much more. No-one would start developing 64-bit software (not mention OS's) if the increase would be only 1%. The increase has to be more. Why else Apple and Microsoft would spend hundreds of millions in developing software that actually doesn't improve anything. I'll be gettin my computer around January so I'll make a test by installing basic Windows XP and the XP64 beta and run Cubase SL3 on both systems. I ban bet my arm that the same project on XP64 runs better.

The only performance boost will come from the extra memory which the processor can use and if the program even needs that much memory.

*cough* Sampling *cough* *cough* Animation *cough* *cough* Research *cough*. Few years back someone might have wondered for what the hell a computer needed 126 megas of memory. It was insane amout at that time. The need for memory and processing power increases all the time. When technology allows bigger memory capacity and processing power it's taken in use in no time. I bet that after two years average RAM amount is 2GB or more and HC users have the max.

Also the logic5 can run more of the same vst-plugins than the new SX2. Surprised?

Sick.

So if my mac now has twice the power compared to my pc, that's not fair or has to be a misunderstanding? I don't get it. Should I use cubase on mac too to get real results?

G??! Of course if you have an strong urge to use Logic then compare the old PC Logic with the new Mac Logic. And of course the Mac has twice the power because it's dual. Doh. Hoho.

I haven't said anything about testing only with Cubase. I meant that when doing concrete objective comparisations which are not dependent on the sequencer Mac should run Logic 7 and PC SX3 and do the comparisation with several different 3rd party plugins. That way both systems run the software that's up to date.

I don't want to sound mean, but you should study a little bit more of what you're talking about, altough you're a moderator. :)
And altough it says in my information bar, that I'm a "complete newbie", in real life I'm not.

Probably, but still there are some holes in the knowledge in both sides. Ie. that 1% increase can't be true.

Edit: I'll add that at the moment the differences between 32-bit and 64-bit systems are not very huge, but the situation will change when the 64-bit software are more common. So we are going to see a good performance boost achieved by software on all 64-bit systems in the next year.

[F5D]

I thought OSX already had 64-bit system.

Yes, I noticed. That's why I needed to correct a few things...

Hmm... This is not right. The increase is much more. No-one would start developing 64-bit software (not mention OS's) if the increase would be only 1%. The increase has to be more. Why else Apple and Microsoft would spend hundreds of millions in developing software that actually doesn't improve anything.

The increase has to be more...

As you see, it's your personal opinion. Of course we will benefit by 64bit technology, but your 64bit processor will not boost it's performance by 50% or at least 10% when the 64bit OS arrives. Like I said, in real life the most noticable boost will be in the memory amount which the processor can use. There are many benchmarks already available comparing 32bit vs. 64bit. Search with google for example.

I guess Apple will bring the new 64bit OSX 10.4 Tiger out next spring. I'm waiting for it but I don't expect a huge performance boost since I don't need that much memory yet.

I wrote: "Also the logic5 can run more of the same vst-plugins than the new SX2. Surprised?"

Sick.

That's right. How can it be possible? It just is...


Few years back someone might have wondered for what the hell a computer needed 126 megas of memory. It was insane amout at that time. The need for memory and processing power increases all the time. When technology allows bigger memory capacity and processing power it's taken in use in no time. I bet that after two years average RAM amount is 2GB or more and HC users have the max.

I don't doubt that we would ever need 8GB ram for example. Of course that day will come and sampling needs lots of ram already. You just use as much ram as you need. It depends on how much you use sampling synths and samplers. Analog- and physical modeling synths and effects plugins don't need very much ram. Some delay and reverb plugins may need more but not that much it would be noticable if you have already at least 1gig of ram. Also the new direct disk streaming option in most soft samplers has helped with ram issues. For example I have sampled huge 24bit JP80x0 Strings (1 minute from every key). I couldn't use them without disk streaming on the moment. I have only 1.25GB of ram, but I'm going to expand that to 2GB. It's well enough for my use.

G??! Of course if you have an strong urge to use Logic then compare the old PC Logic with the new Mac Logic. And of course the Mac has twice the power because it's dual. Doh. Hoho.

You don't seem to take this very seriously as you laugh after every sentence. Yes, I'm aware that my mac has 2 processors. I just wanted to point out that PowerMac Dual G5 is not just a crap with it's 2 "lousy" processors against single processor pc computers as the carillon test showed. Nothing more. And it doesn't matter if I compare logic7 performance to logic5 or sx2, because the performance ratio is about the same with 3rd party plugins too.

I just want to correct false statements.

cheers.

[Juho L]

Yes, I noticed. That's why I needed to correct a few things...

Yup. I assumed that it was 64-bit because it was released as a fanfare for the new G5 family.

As you see, it's your personal opinion. Of course we will benefit by 64bit technology, but your 64bit processor will not boost it's performance by 50% or at least 10% when the 64bit OS arrives. Like I said, in real life the most noticable boost will be in the memory amount which the processor can use.

But if the performance boost is totally trivial then why there are so much effort put in 64-bit OS? It doesn't make any sense. The 64-bit systems can run 32-bit OS's with no problems (including the extented memory) so why to create a new OS that actually doesn't change anything at all? That's my point. If the increase is only one or to percents then why all the hassle? Whats the motive?

There are many benchmarks already available comparing 32bit vs. 64bit. Search with google for example.

Yup. I've seen those. The differences aren't big yet due the software. Only about 10% performance difference.

That's right. How can it be possible? It just is...

Many reasons. Less CPU hungry mixing and dithering algorithms for example. It's true that the older sequencers are very light compared to the new ones.

I don't doubt that we would ever need 8GB ram for example. Of course that day will come and sampling needs lots of ram already. You just use as much ram as you need. It depends on how much you use sampling synths and samplers. Analog- and physical modeling synths and effects plugins don't need very much ram. Some delay and reverb plugins may need more but not that much it would be noticable if you have already at least 1gig of ram. Also the new direct disk streaming option in most soft samplers has helped with ram issues. For example I have sampled huge 24bit JP80x0 Strings (1 minute from every key). I couldn't use them without disk streaming on the moment. I have only 1.25GB of ram, but I'm going to expand that to 2GB. It's well enough for my use.

Yup. But as you have noticed the need for RAM increases unnoticeably. The samplings get bigger so the DFD eneds more RAM. There's not long before 2GB RAM is too small. Technology and software develops at frightening rate, one sohuld be always prepared for future. Do not get a system that fits your need, get a system that's over your needs.

You don't seem to take this very seriously as you laugh after every sentence.

Nah. It was just silly to say "twice as fast" when talking about a computer that in theory has two computers in same.

I just wanted to point out that PowerMac Dual G5 is not just a crap with it's 2 "lousy" processors against single processor pc computers as the carillon test showed. Nothing more. And it doesn't matter if I compare logic7 performance to logic5 or sx2, because the performance ratio is about the same with 3rd party plugins too.

Actually the sequencer affects the CPU time taken by the plugin because the sequencer does mixing & dithering. The differences in the algorithms and the engine in general cause differences in the overall performance. Like I said earlier the new sequencers are heavier due improved algorithms. For example it's quite a big difference between Cubase VST32 and SX3.

[F5D]

Nah. It was just silly to say "twice as fast" when talking about a computer that in theory has two computers in same.


I think it looks even more silly when carillon shows some benchmarks where G5 Dual 2.5GHz! is at the same line with single processor PCs and the benchmark has more to do with poor optimization than real calculation power. :wink:

Like I said earlier the new sequencers are heavier due improved algorithms. For example it's quite a big difference between Cubase VST32 and SX3.

Yes, that's true, but like I also said, Apple has managed to improve the logic's code so much that logic7 needs less cpu power to run than logic6 altough there are several improvements in the audio engine too.

And you can always build a dual processor pc too but that's another story. A computer is still a computer, doesn't matter how many processors it has inside. I think there's nothing silly if I say that my mac is twice as fast as my pc because it is. My point was to prove that a dual G5 is definitely not on the same line with single processor pc. If it was, why would I have bought a mac then...

In contrary, if you want to take a look at some Apple's benchmarks...
http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/

Edit. It seems that the carillon's test was totally gay... :lol:

1. They used SX3 as a sequencer which performs even worse than SX2 on mac.
2. They used M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard which doesn't have very good mac drivers.
3. They got clicks and pops with the G5 propably because they had used the automatic power saving mode and a poor soundcard. You must always use the "highest performance" setting for the G5 if you run any audio application like cubase, logic etc... (for example with RME soundcards and their superior core audio drivers you can use 0,5-1ms latency and it doesn't even make a big hit on the CPUs. I think the PCs would have been in trouble if the tests were run with those latencies.)

So when they tested the pro tools le, the G5 won the tests with only 60% of it's power. Normally you can run the cpu bars up to 100% with no problems at all. ;)

[Juho L]

I think it looks even more silly when carillon shows some benchmarks where G5 Dual 2.5GHz! is at the same line with single processor PCs and the benchmark has more to do with poor optimization than real calculation power.

Yup.

I think there's nothing silly if I say that my mac is twice as fast as my pc because it is.

It's silly because we can say Athlon 64 = G5 and of course 2 x G5 = 2 x Athlon 64.

My point was to prove that a dual G5 is definitely not on the same line with single processor pc.

No-one actually haven't even said dual G5 = single PC (except that benchmark page).

[F5D]

I think there's nothing silly if I say that my mac is twice as fast as my pc because it is.

It's silly because we can say Athlon 64 = G5 and of course 2 x G5 = 2 x Athlon 64.

Yes we can compare a64 almost directly to G5 what comes to power. However I still don't understand how you're thinking. Nobody says that you have 2 computers if you have a dual processor computer. I have never heard of that. If the computer can run certain amount of plugins for example, why should the owner always think how many plugins each processor can run in he's computer? I don't think he's very interested in that at all. All that matters is that how much the computer can do work. And I was talking about computers, not single processors. I still don't see any silly about that. I think it's quite silly how you think this over. :wink:

My last post to this thread.

[Wandering Kid]

the cpu load that a plugin uses is variable and fluctuates alot depending on the max polyphony + number of simultaneous voices played and the effects on the instrument (heh, i.e. plugins on top of plugins).

i can have like, 15 vanguards on my 1.6ghz p4 if i set em all to monophonic bass patches with no effects on them.

or i can add 1 vanguard with 32 poly and strike a massive 13th chord with delay, reverb, EQ + compression on it and it'll slay my CPU ;)

[Juho L]

And I was talking about computers, not single processors. I still don't see any silly about that.

The silly thing was that it was trivial and quite intuitive observation. It's like saying "There's twice as much water when I have two glasses instead of one". ?hih. My comment didn't actually had anything to do with the topic.