virus and preamps?

[Wandering Kid]

hey, ive been looking around for some time about this but do you really need to operate a virus with a preamp? i ask because listening to some of hollowcell's audio demos - i just cant get my virus that loud and clean without boosting the volume in fruity's mixer (quite alot to get it up to the level of the rest of my tracks). which of course raises the noisefloor. bass is pretty blurry. and running my guitar through the virus is even worse for hiss and blurry bass.

so how many people use a preamp with their virus? have you tried using it without? does a preamp make a big difference to the quality of the audio output from the virus?

thanks for the input guys. i ask this question because i have a virus b on my desktop that doesnt get much use at all for a number reasons including the loudness issues and the blurriness of the sound.

and i just tried out the USB ultra focus demo just now and was totally blown away by it. same price as my virus b :O

[grs]

One quick tip with the virus b, make sure you are using unbalanced cables. If you make the mistake of plugging balanced cables into your virus b you will get 6 db softer signals.

The output of the virus b is unbalanced yet the socket on the board inside the virus has a TRS jack connecter. Tip, Ring and Sleeve. Yet the signal only travels via the Tip and Sleeve, the Ring is 'Open'. So when you plug a ballanced cable into the virus and the other end into a balanced sound card input or balanced mixer input the end device sees the virus a balanced [ incorrectly due to the open ring ].

I made this mistake once because I thought my AD converter would just detect it as unbalanced and I would benifit from the higher quality cable etc. Wrong indeed.

This is a design flaw, really the Ring and sleeve should be shorted together.

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Other than that, just make sure each patch you are using is turned up to at least 100 and if in multi mode look at the multi patch volume aswell.
There is enough volume or juice in the virus outs to clip a -10db [consumer] input and enough to fill up a +4db [ pro ] input, but the virus outs will clip before the input of a +4db device.

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I say only use a pre-amp if it's really good, and you like the sound coloration. Other than that Directly in is ok.

[Hollowcell]

i ask because listening to some of hollowcell's audio demos - i just cant get my virus that loud and clean without boosting the volume in fruity's mixer (quite alot to get it up to the level of the rest of my tracks).

Which demos are you talking about WK, Tracks on Electromancer, or the patch demos on Soundclick?

If you let me know which ones, I can let you know what I did.

[jasedee]

Check on your soundcard inputs if you have the option of software switching from +4 to -10

[Wandering Kid]

to hollowcell, both really although your hardware demos on soundclick sound very clean and very pronounced.

to jasedee and grs - i have an m-audio delta 1010 with the switches on the back set to their out position (-10dB). pushing them in (+4dB) makes the signal louder but the noise floor increases when i do this - its just about visible on a spectrum analyser and you can hear the LFO squeeling away in the background when you crank it up REALLY loud. i am using only unbalanced cables and the system is completely unbalanced.

i take it you guys operate without preamps then?

[Hollowcell]

Most of the time I use the Virus without pre-amps, but sometimes I'll run my gear through a valve - none of the VC only demos on soundclick are run through the valve though.

The only outboard FX used were at mastering the mastering stage on those VC demos. From memory I just used a limiter. As long as there is a chunky enough wave before limiting, noise won't increase.

Which brings me to this point.....

Basicly, once you have set your sound card up properly, make sure when you record you are getting a wave that is as big as it can be without clipping. If the volume of the initail recording is too low, then you will get noise once you beef up the sound later.

[Wandering Kid]

well i made a virus trance lead and posted it in the sound design forum. on the right channel its peaking about -0.2dB in soundforge. it cant go any higher with more post processing (ill try a limiter on it after this post and see what'll happen). that virus lead is alot quieter than the stuff i normally put out (cave of orchids for example which comes on about twice and loud and isnt clipping in soundforge or the master channel in fl studio)

[jasedee]

You could try running your Virus outputs through a couple of DI's???

And yes, you are correct, I dont run my virus into a preamp, cos it is just not neccessary if you have things set up properly in your studio. I can either run the Virus direct into my soundcard inputs at -10, or I can run the Virus into a stereo line level channel on my mixer, and engage it's -10 button

A preamp is not neccessary, inputs on your soundcard that are able to switch between -10 & +4 are....

[grs]

well i made a virus trance lead and posted it in the sound design forum. on the right channel its peaking about -0.2dB in soundforge. it cant go any higher with more post processing (ill try a limiter on it after this post and see what'll happen). that virus lead is alot quieter than the stuff i normally put out (cave of orchids for example which comes on about twice and loud and isnt clipping in soundforge or the master channel in fl studio)

How can you get a signal twice as loud as one that hits -0.2dB?

[jasedee]

How can you get a signal twice as loud as one that hits -0.2dB?
It could be 0.1?

[Wandering Kid]

well its probably not 'twice' as loud in the literal sense of the word but if you listen to one of my demos on soundclick (cave of orchids being the most apt example) it is alot louder than my virus. theres also my virus pulsar lead on soundclick too and you can run a side by side comparison. when i put my virus into an existing project (like cave of orchids) its really quiet and i have to keep boosting the signal in fruity's mixer using parametric EQs but it sounds blurry and rubbish the more i do that. please note - i can max out the channel fader in fruity and max out the input volume on the virus AND the midi out player in floops and i STILL need to add parametric EQs to boost the signal even further - this cant be normal right?

as for the levels. you can have a signal thats twice as loud as another but peaks at the same level. i admit i used alot of compression on cave of orchids but i also compressed the lead on my virus. but irrespective of this i just notice that i cant make my virus as loud as some of the softies i use. i know loudness isnt the be all and end all but it seriously is quiet. i listened to timo's indigo 1 pulsar lead and that too is waay louder than i can make my virus. play his and mine one after the other. and from the looks of things timo didnt do any post processing whereas i had to skew mine in stereo and compress it to get an extra 2-3 dBs worth of headroom out of it.

[Hollowcell]

Do you record any other harware synths WK? It really sounds like you are having difficulties with the actual recording process, rather than the processing once it's in the box.

If you have setup your soundcard properly and that side of things are sorted, the only other peice of advie I could think of giving you (without being there of course) is double your tracks up if they don't have the presence you want. Sometimes doubling the bass or lead track can give more power. In many cases I will run 3 tracks of the same bassline for example - maybe slight distortion on one of them, then compressed all together. This varies depending on the track though.

[Wandering Kid]

If you have setup your soundcard properly and that side of things are sorted, the only other peice of advie I could think of giving you (without being there of course) is double your tracks up if they don't have the presence you want. Sometimes doubling the bass or lead track can give more power. In many cases I will run 3 tracks of the same bassline for example - maybe slight distortion on one of them, then compressed all together. This varies depending on the track though.

gah! dont you get phasing problems from doing that?!

virus b is my first hardware synth. never recorded from hardware prior to this. i was self raised on softies :roll:

[jasedee]

Is no one listening here?

You need inputs on your soundcard that are switchable to -10

Or....you run the virus into a DI

Or....you buy a mixer with switchable +4/-10 line channels

Record the Virus into your sequencer (boosting gain in sequencer if neccessary before recording) at the highest possible level.

[Hollowcell]

If you have setup your soundcard properly and that side of things are sorted, the only other peice of advie I could think of giving you (without being there of course) is double your tracks up if they don't have the presence you want. Sometimes doubling the bass or lead track can give more power. In many cases I will run 3 tracks of the same bassline for example - maybe slight distortion on one of them, then compressed all together. This varies depending on the track though.

gah! dont you get phasing problems from doing that?!

virus b is my first hardware synth. never recorded from hardware prior to this. i was self raised on softies :roll:

Nope, not usually, but still have to monitor mixes in mono before finalising of course.

We are listening Jase. :D All the answers I've been giving are based on my guessing that WK has already set things up properly and is still having trouble. You have followed Jase's sugestions I am guessing WK?!

[Wandering Kid]

yea im kind of already doing that cept of course i dont have a DI box.

this is what i do.

virus audio outs are plugged into the back of my delta 1010 with the switch on both inputs set to their out position (-10 dB). i am using analogue ins 1 and 2.

i open fruity and add a MIDI out channel plugin.

in fruity's mixer i select the input source to analogue ins 1 and 2 on the delta whilst the output i leave on master. the virus now plays back through fruity's mixer via the MIDI out plug but it comes on very quiet regardless of the patch.

what i normally do with my soft synths is to calibrate the channel fader. basically i raise the channel fader until its right on 0 dB using fruity's dB meter and inspector's dB meter just to check it. ive found fruity's dB meters arent always accurate. anywho i then increase the input volume of the plugin until it peaks on the 0 point of the channel fader. i then adjust the channel fader volume until the instrument sits well in the mix.

herein lies the problem. i have the virus master volume maxed. i have the MIDI plugin volume maxed. and the channel fader volume maxed. and its still under the 0 point of the channel fader. the only way i can seem to...

EDIT: sorry whilst i was typing this i discovered there is a patch volume parameter in the edit menu. it was on 80. i whacked it up to 120. it made it louder.

feel a bit sheepish now...

:cry:

[Wandering Kid]

ooooookay. quick subject change - does anyone here use a DI box/preamp on their virus?

...

:cry:

[Hollowcell]

I had it wrong too, I thought you were trying to get recorded waves from the Virus loud enough along side the other parts in your software. Oops, it seems as if you were just trying to get the Virus to play along side your software loud enough.

Anyway, glad it's all sorted. :wink:

And no, I haven't used a DI with my VC.

[udenjoe]

You really don't need another amp for it. Unless you are using the vocoder right Hollow? :wink:

[Panopticon]

I've sent the virus through my Great River pre's for general fattening and warming up. It's pretty subtle, though, because the virus' output is at line level, so you can't crank the pre into it's 'working' zone...

[Hollowcell]

You really don't need another amp for it. Unless you are using the vocoder right Hollow? :wink:

Hehehe, so what you are trying to say is you never need a pre then Uden. Stupid fucking Vocoda.

Like I said though, (alomg the same lines as Panopticon) sometimes I'll run the VC through a valve-pre, but it's rare though - now if I had a nice valve compression gadget in my rack it would be a different story (also another thread too I guess :wink: ).

[Wandering Kid]

what does the valve pre do to the sound?

[Panopticon]

what does the valve pre do to the sound?

Depends completely on what you're using, and the signal you're passing through it. It's usually done to warm things up and give them more analog characteristics (i.e.-make it sound less digital, basically). Results may very (also, a decent pre (tube or no tube) is probably considered spendy to most budgets, we're not talking Presonus or ARS here. We're talking Neve, API, Manley, Focusrite Red, Great River, Vintech, etc.)

Also, if you want flat-out the best compressor for treating your signal (with audible, but desirable artifacts), look no further than the Empirical Labs Distressor. It costs, but it'll really kick your ass.

Finally, and most importantly, bear in mind that no gear makes the monkey using it into anything other than a monkey...

[Hollowcell]

Also, if you want flat-out the best compressor for treating your signal (with audible, but desirable artifacts), look no further than the Empirical Labs Distressor. It costs, but it'll really kick your ass.


You must be doing alright mate. I dream of gear in this sort of class. I think I read somewhere on here you are making cash from your tunes - got any demos online we could listen too?

[Wandering Kid]

Finally, and most importantly, bear in mind that no gear makes the monkey using it into anything other than a monkey...

yea but that goes without saying.

[AvS]

I think using a decent preamp to record synths is always a good idea. The only reason I dont use a preamp with my Virus is that i dont have a 2 channel/stereo preamp yet :). I use a preamp for my other synths that are mono. A Fucusrite Trakmaster to be precise. It's not highend but quite good and its got a compressor wich is a nice when recording.