Virus Vs JP-8000..which basic waveform is fatter?

[K.E.M.]

Yeah, I was wondering that, because that was one of the things that was stolen from me, and that's one of the main reasons I'm seriously considering a Virus. I was intending to get the Virus anyway, but now I want one more than ever before...but I dunno, cna you guys help me with some of your own opinions? ^_^;;

[ten]

I own both a JP8080 and virus and with regards to the saw waveform I personally think the 8080 sounds better, not necessarily fatter. The JP seems to fill up the spectrum much more evenly where as the virus tends to die in the high frequencies for some reason. Dont get me wrong, they both sound shit hot and they are both good at different sounds, but for a a nice crisp rich saw wave I would go for the 8080 everytime.

Of course this may change with the TI (although I doubt it as the basic sound engine is the same) we will have to wait and see.

For fatness though the TI's hypersaw in unison is going to slay anything.

ten

[MADSTATION]

You should try them both FIRST and also make sure to know about synthesis before you get a VA! Or at least, plan a few weeks/months to discover how it works :)

It's not about which one sounds fatter, it's about what you need for your particuliar style of music. I actually own a JP8080 and I used to own a Virus and both have a really different character. If you have only 1 synth, then I would say go for the Virus for more poly and multimode. If you already have quite a few synths, then the jp might be able to fill that gap :)

[Wandering Kid]

i always thought the unison on the virus was very...hmmm...how should i say...'loose.' it sounds almost messy :\

[Nigel Harkness]

make sure to know about synthesis before you get a VA! Or at least, plan a few weeks/months to discover how it works

The Virus is my first hardware synth, I already know quite a bit about synthesis but i'm just curious what you mean by this statement?

[ben crosland]

I think you'll find the Hypersaw in the TI will see the JP off nicely.

[Merlot]

Ben (and Marc),
How about a multi demo. Use the hypersaw excessively and show us that it is fatter. C'mon!!!! :lol: :lol: :wink:

[MADSTATION]

My statement was just to make sure that nobody ends up in the situation I was 2-3 years ago! I bought Virus+jp8080+fr777 all at once, with no previous experience with hardware or synthesis...That's not the right thing to do! I should have bought a jp first, learn synthesis, then move on to the virus, and so on.

And Ben...WE WANT A MULTI demo! It's hard to believe that the hypersaw could sound fatter than the supersaw in the JP8080.

[ben crosland]

It's hard to believe that the hypersaw could sound fatter than the supersaw in the JP8080.

Well, for one thing the Hypersaw can generate up to 9 saws, vs the JP's 7. Only a subtle difference, I know, but then it also has more flexibility, courtesy of the internal sync and sub-oscillators.

Remember, this is a brand new algorithm - it doesn't just stack up 9 of the Virus' saws, so comparisons with earlier models running in Unison mode are irrelevant.

[tranzash]

Hypersaw+sq is going to blow supersaw out of the boat :lol:

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Hang on a sec......i thought the JP's supersaw was 3 sawtooths....not 7. Can some one clarify?

DS

[ten]

With unison on its 7x the supersaw waveform.

ten

[tranzash]

I think the supersaw has 7saws.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

ur thinking of the JP8080 then?.....i cant rememebr the 8000 having unison. Oh well...my memory isnt too good hehe

DS

[ten]

8000 is identical to the 8080 apart from a couple of extra poly, vocoder and more storage for patches. The rest is the same. (oh and the 8000 obviously has a keyboard ;)

ten

[DJ REMIDI]

The JP seems to fill up the spectrum much more evenly where as the virus tends to die in the high frequencies for some reason.

ten



i always thought the unison on the virus was very...hmmm...how should i say...'loose.' it sounds almost messy :\


Using a Virus|Powercore I tend to find the obove statements to be true. Could Ben or Marc maybe explain what this lack of high frequencies is due to?

-REMIDI

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

The supression of certain higher frequencies is what gives the Virus its dark sonic character (hence its difficult to make genuinely bright 80's sounds on it :cry: ).

I would hazard a guess and say Access did this in order to reduce the audiable effects of aliasing. Im probably way off mark.....maybe someone could oneday clarify this....

DS

[MADSTATION]

I totally agree with the 2 latest posts.

Ben...Anything to add? :)

[Wandering Kid]

9 saws. 7 saws. this is all maths. the one thing i have gotten from experience is: the jp8080 sounds fat as. its an instrument. not a calculator. i cant explain why it sounds fat as. but its somewhat more than just having 7 detuned saws spread in stereo. it has a unique character that you just cant find anywhere else. its all well and good quoting numbers: 80 simultaneous voices! 9 detuned oscillators! + sub oscillator! which computes to xxx number of simultaneous detuned oscillators = fatness.' but ultimately the TI has to be more than an oscillator crunching calculator.

i also think that the raw virus waveforms, particularly the saw wave doesnt sound that great without a tonne of effects on it. it doesnt quite have that crunch or that bite. maybe the hypersaw oscillator will do that.

but yea, what a way to dispell all this speculation by actually posting the god damn fattest hypersaw lead in existence playing a classic supersaw lead like one of cygnus x's tunes. go on ben, make me weep for not pre ordering ;)

i will admit, your previous demos got me close to crying. but crucially i DIDNT SHED A TEAR! finish the job ben! come on!

[Timo]

Wasn't the JP80x0 modelled on the Jupiter 8 (including filters, etc.), hence the JP8xxx title? Would this have contributed to the supersaw's fatness?

Also, I bet there's more to it than the actual individual saw waves that make up the supersaw each being mathematically-correct sawtooths (using fourier analysis), each identical, other than being detuned and panned?...

...meaning, I guess if we could isolate each saw wave, they wouldn't be just simple, "static" saw waves, just stacked in unison and detuned?

Could the Supersaw have also incorporated some kind of waveform-modulation/sync between the individual sawtooths to create an even more rich sound, seperate to detuning? (Check out this thread for examples of waveform-sync amongst saw waves, something I've never been able to easily achieve with the Virus, which could otherwise add a whole new level of fatness, completely seperate to simple detuning by normal methods:- )

[Forum thread: Quick pulse-width question (http://www.sunesha.nu/virusforum/viewtopic.php?t=2197)]

Basically it appears to take one single sawtooth oscillator, break it into two (by duplicating it, then halving the amplitude for each copy), and then modulating the phase between the two to give a "doubling in octave/harmonic" type effect (more apparent when you modulate the phase with an LFO, creating a gentle "rocking" pitching motion between one octave to the next).

...And that's using just one single oscillator. When you mix just two of these oscillators together, and detune them, the effect is devastating, without even using any Unison or third/sub oscillator.

An audio example taken from that thread:

[2 x detuned saw-oscillators with/without waveform-modulation (http://www.gobo.dsl.pipex.com/audio/pulsewidth/SawzPWx2-SawzDry.mp3)]

...Which shows the difference between: a) two x detuned saw oscillators with waveform modulation, and then b) without the waveform modulation.

Both in mono, and no unison used.

Timo

[K.E.M.]

Wow, I just tried the Virus KC at Guitar Center * I work there now!! Weee!!* and here are my findings in comparison...

I remember the JP's sound quite well, and it's saw wave was very nice and thick. I tried making my own patch with the Virus, and I noticed...that it wasn't as thick or meaty as a JP saw wave..it was VERY noticable to me...I mean, unbearably...so...at first I kinda leered at the synth...for having a somewhat thin wave to start with. But I decided to give it a chance...and knowing the sonic versatility of the Virus, I tried morphing and fattening the sound I was creating. Eventually I came up with a very kick ass pad which could have easily taken over for the Korgmatose patch on my Triton LE, which I use in a really heavy industrial metal sound called "Fire", by my band. I then proceeded to create a fat bass, which also was nice. Still, now that I think about it, The Virus is damn powerful, but doesn't have the same character as the JP. I am seriously considering a JP-8080 module.

Also, I am considering getting one of my favorite analog synths ever..the Korg MS2000. It is one of the warmest analog synths I've ever played...eventually I'll probably end up buying it...either soon or later on. The SH-32 which is definately an underrated synth is also VERY cool, because it has some fatness, and a sonic character you cannot get through any other synth period, due to it's synthesis method, which is something that can only be found in THAT synth ONLY. It's called Wave Accerlation. I invite you guys to check it out...I think I'll end up buying those three for sure...and the Virus is under consideration. I really liked the classic, but I couldn't find the arpeggiator function..must be hidden in some menu that isn't easily accessable in the patch edit menus. =\

[tranzash]

KEM, you are probably comparing supersaw to the virus saw. That's why virus saw was't meaty enough. About the MS2000 (VA), it is only 4voice poly though. Comparing the prices, you should check out the Ion, Micron synths and evolver :)

[Timo]

I really liked the classic, but I couldn't find the arpeggiator function..must be hidden in some menu that isn't easily accessable in the patch edit menus. =\

Hit the Ctrl button, and the arp settings are next along from the tempo.

[K.E.M.]

KEM, you are probably comparing supersaw to the virus saw. That's why virus saw was't meaty enough. About the MS2000 (VA), it is only 4voice poly though. Comparing the prices, you should check out the Ion, Micron synths and evolver :)

Nope. I know the JP basic saw very well..and it felt fatter than the Virus to me. And I forgot to mention that the MS2K is a VA..I know it's not purely analog. Lol.

[ben crosland]

Would someone mind posting an mp3 of what they consider to be a good example of a Supersaw lead from a JP8xxx? If possible, I'd prefer it to be a solo sound recorded directly from the JP, rather than a clip of a track.

Thanks.

[ledge]

Would someone mind posting an mp3 of what they consider to be a good example of a Supersaw lead from a JP8xxx? If possible, I'd prefer it to be a solo sound recorded directly from the JP, rather than a clip of a track.

Thanks.

http://www.first-wave-music.de/downloads/downloadse.htm

near the bottom of the page is a link to a zip with it in.

[ben crosland]

http://www.first-wave-music.de/downloads/downloadse.htm

near the bottom of the page is a link to a zip with it in.

Thanks - anybody got any more?

[MADSTATION]

Ben: I'll record one as soon as I get home :)

[F5D]

I thought the purpose of the hypersaw in Virus TI was to do the same trick as in JP8000, to be able to make fat strings and leads and save polyphony without using the unison function at all !? :roll:

I always use 2 layers with JP8080, so my supersaw strings and leads have 2x 7 (supersaw) + 2 saw waves (osc2), a total of 16 saw waves. And I have been experimenting with many synths and I have found out that after some point there's no sense to put more saw waves together. The sound will become just a huge noise and doesn't even sound very good in most cases. And those who don't know or remember, the JP8080 HAS a UNISON too. But guess what, I never really use it, because 16 saws are enough with right detunings. The unison hits the sound too hard and it becomes just a fat noise and doesn't sound as beautiful anymore. Different synths have different unison behaviour but in most cases too much saw waves is too much.

And the TI will NOT replace the JP80x0! I have said this before too. Virus sounds great but in some cases the real JP supersaw + the JP 2-pole filter sounds better and virus cannot make that sound because the virus filter sounds completely different and the oscillators lack the highest frequencies, no matter how much you boost them even with sony oxford eq.

With virus I get some really nice ron van den beuken -style saw stacks and some beautiful dark string pads but for brighter strings and saw leads I prefer the JP over virus.

[Timo]

I'll throw another line of thought into the pot:

Why don't 2 x Virus saw oscillators, detuned, and 4 x Unison (to get 8 x detuned saw waves) with maximum pan-spread, sound like a Supersaw?

What's happening behind the scenes in the actual Supersaw oscillator waveform that makes it so different?

[ben crosland]

And the TI will NOT replace the JP80x0! I have said this before too. Virus sounds great but in some cases the real JP supersaw + the JP 2-pole filter sounds better and virus cannot make that sound because the virus filter sounds completely different and the oscillators lack the highest frequencies, no matter how much you boost them even with sony oxford eq.


As I explained before, the HyperSaw is *not* the same as stacking 9 Virus saws together - they are a new oscillator design. The character of each basic saw is very similar, but the energy in the very top is definitely better.

So, from what I can tell so far, the Virus TI will be able to do a perfectly good emulation of the JP Supersaw patches, but the main point is, it will be able to do a lot more besides, courtesy of the subs, internal sync and modulation routings. I could also mention the fact that due to the TI's greatly increased polyphony, the patches which use so many saws don't have to be restricted to leads and basses..

[technomonster]

i am still a newbie,

but i was always amazed at the saw sounds of JP-8080 AND JP-8000.

i was as well, staggered by the demos of ACCESS VIRUS C on the access site, which showcased the the virus as a whole.

however when playing on a PRO TOOLs software version of VIRUS C, as well as hearing the best demos of VIRUS C doing saws, i realised that they could not quite equal the JP-8080 saws but gave a different version , lighter, which of course could be used when neccesary.

i was always going to just!!!!buy an ACCESS VIRUS C, because of finance and that JP-8080 was no loonger made.
and it was upsetting me that i would miss out on the JP-8080 saw capabilities.
Luckily someone sold me their JP-8080, and i am increadibly delighted.

now i will have both.
i will soon buy the TI, no matter what its saws sound like, or maybe just the ACCESS VIRUS C (Its fantastic in its way),

[Timo]

mmmm, why has Roland never come up with a Super VA? Why did they never expand further on the JP80x0 concept, like the Virus did with the Virus A?

[F5D]

As I explained before, the HyperSaw is *not* the same as stacking 9 Virus saws together - they are a new oscillator design. The character of each basic saw is very similar, but the energy in the very top is definitely better.

So, from what I can tell so far, the Virus TI will be able to do a perfectly good emulation of the JP Supersaw patches, but the main point is, it will be able to do a lot more besides, courtesy of the subs, internal sync and modulation routings. I could also mention the fact that due to the TI's greatly increased polyphony, the patches which use so many saws don't have to be restricted to leads and basses..

I believe that the hypersaw will be a good oscillator waveform, I don't deny that.

In fact the JP's supersaw is not 7 detuned saw waves. If I remember right, Roland used some other tricks to get the sound (phase modulation or something). The manual says that "it sounds like there were 7 saw waves playing together". But altough you could emulate the JP supersaw oscillator "perfectly" (which I still doubt) the sound will not be even near the same because THE FILTER is the most important thing in synthesizer and gives the synth the character. And the virus filter sounds completely different from jp's creamy & fat filter. I guess that people @ Roland didn't include the JP80x0 filter in V-synth (am I right?) because they don't know anything about their synths and why they were so good. It seems that they bring those good synths out sometimes by accident. Like the TB303 was meant to be a bass guitar emulation but became an acid heaven. The same goes for JP8000. It was meant to be a Jupiter emulation but became a total trance heaven with different kind of sound. :D

It doesn't help altough the virus has a "minimoog" kind of filter because it's not the best one to use with supersaw style sounds. There's still no other synth filter which sounds as good with the supersaw oscillators than the real JP filter. You will notice the difference when you slowly open the cutoff and there's a supersaw lead playing and arpeggio for example. That is what I call an uplifting sound. Virus excels with different kinds of sounds on the moment but I don't believe that the hypersaw will change everything. Alot depends on the filter too.

Edit: Timo, I have been thinking of the same too that why didn't Roland ever continue the succesful JP8000 but it seems that they are grazy people and sometimes don't even know what they're doing. If I worked at Roland as a synth engineer I would immediately use the superb algorithms of the JP8000. I would also suggest that Roland brought out some of the analog monosynths too, like TB303 and SH101 with midi control. I guess those would sell like grazy. A JP8000 mk2 would also be a success I think. But those bastards don't even seem to know for what most of the people use their classic synths. What a shame. :roll:

[Timo]

As I explained before, the HyperSaw is *not* the same as stacking 9 Virus saws together - they are a new oscillator design. ....

Hi Ben, so what does it do, then, other than stacking simple, mathematically-correct saws? Does it employ the waveform modulated-phase trick I mentioned in the other thread last year, and earlier in this thread, to thicken the sound without detuning? By using this technique, you could effectively make any oscillator into a super oscillator, ie. super-square (as per Virus TI), or even super-wavetable, lol.

PS > Regards the NAMM video you made for Sonicstate this year, did you have the Moog filter (perhaps the 1-pole version) locked in at the same time, or was it using the Virus' basic filter left wide-open? Were there any other effects going on, like distortion or saturation or the like?

[ben crosland]

As I explained before, the HyperSaw is *not* the same as stacking 9 Virus saws together - they are a new oscillator design. ....

So what does it do, then, other than stacking simple, mathematically-correct saws? Does it employ the waveform modulated-phase trick I mentioned, to thicken the sound without detuning?

No - they are detuned saws, like it says on the tin. However, the detune is applied a little differently in such a way that it suits multiple waves better than can be achieved with the classic Virus oscillators.

[ben crosland]

PS > Regards the NAMM video you made for Sonicstate this year, did you have the Moog filter (perhaps the 1-pole version) locked in at the same time, or was it using the Virus' basic filter left wide-open? Were there any other effects going on, like distortion or saturation or the like?

I can't remember to be honest - my brain was pretty phase-modulated by the time that video was shot ;) I think I was running them clean, but I can't be certain..

[Wandering Kid]

with regards to some samples - ill drop a little message over at the production forums over at tranceaddict.com and see if they can get a good crop of samples for you to reference off. they know their supersaws. and they luv em. and theres a lorra JP users down there (of course! its trance!)

the hypersaw is really really peaking my curiosity now. the JP sells off the back of the supersaw alone practically - its the one reason why they still sell on average for higher prices on ebay than virus b desktops. im saving the pennies now just in case. i wanted a nord lead 2x. but if i work summer, forget the lead 2x and sell my virus b - thats nearly on for a TI right?

[Wandering Kid]

http://www.rb2k1.com/sound-design/

check that one out. rb2k1 is a sound designer on tranceaddict.com. hes pretty good with a JP. he also made an ensemble for reaktor which emulates the jp8000 and its probably the best software emulation ive heard. theres a 320 kbps demo mp3 on his front page which showcases his jp80x0 patches playing midis of famous trance tunes.

if you can make a virus sound like that or (gulp) better, i will hallelujah till the cows come home since i will never have to get into another ebay bidding war over a jp8080 ever again. woot!

[MADSTATION]

www.madstation.net/ben_demo.wav

Sorry it's a wave file, but it doesnt suffers from mp3 compression hah
(my soundforge mp3 export has expired)

Just playing a simple sequence from a performance on a jp8080...then removing effects(delay and chorus), then removing the detune and finally using just 1 supersaw osc...then putting the fx back in, playing with the detune value, etc.

Watch out @ the end of the clip, the volume is considerably louder(I reloaded the patch)

If these sounds can now be done with the TI, I will buy no less than 2!
hah

[Timo]

Thanks Ben. :)

Mad, great demo. It really does have "that sound" (prob'ly cos it is, but. ;) ). So recognisable. Were the effects you used native to the JP80x0, or were they external?

[ben crosland]

Thanks for the links, guys! Not my scene tbh, but it helps me get a much clearer picture of what people expect.

It doesn't help altough the virus has a "minimoog" kind of filter because it's not the best one to use with supersaw style sounds. There's still no other synth filter which sounds as good with the supersaw oscillators than the real JP filter.

No, really it helps a lot - to get something completely different from the JP sound. Maybe the trance guys might not like the HyperSaw>AnalogLP Filter sound, but trust me, the d'n'b guys are gonna love it! :twisted:

I thought the purpose of the hypersaw in Virus TI was to do the same trick as in JP8000, to be able to make fat strings and leads and save polyphony without using the unison function at all !?

Well, of course it can pretty easily, because you can have 2x[9 saws+9 subs] in single voice mode, but unison is still pretty tempting because of the pan spread (the saws in the Hypersaw do not pan spread on their own btw - the 'Spread' parameter controls the detuning between the saws.)

[MADSTATION]

Timo: all internal fx, NO external processing so that's why there is no reverb and no eq :)

[tranzash]

I can't wait to see the messe demo for the TI :D

[F5D]

www.madstation.net/ben_demo.wav

Just playing a simple sequence from a performance on a jp8080...then removing effects(delay and chorus), then removing the detune and finally using just 1 supersaw osc...then putting the fx back in, playing with the detune value, etc.
Great demo madstation. The JP's onboard chorus & delay are also very good. No need for external chorus or delay. I use only external eq & reverb if I need. If I hear correctly you used the 12dB/oct. filter for the demo. I always use the 12dB filter cause it sounds softer and maybe fatter too. Btw. the last 3 seconds sound very massive, like the JP sounds at it's best! :) And like I said earlier too, after some point the extra saw waves don't bring more fatness or power to the sound without spoiling the sound. JP supersaw with 2 layers is about the maximum which still sounds very good.


If these sounds can now be done with the TI, I will buy no less than 2!
hah
Don't worry, you'll save your money because they can never get that JP sound out of Virus TI, trust me. In fact ben already kind of admitted that trance is not his scene ("Not my scene tbh, but it helps me get a much clearer picture of what people expect. ") but d'n'b guys are gonna love the hypersaw + "minimoog" filter. In fact that's just the reason why a 100% JP supersaw replica cannot be done, if the designers are not fully aware of the original sound and how people expect it to sound. Like I said the filter is in very important role here too. And of course it's also a good thing that the hypersaw won't sound like jp supersaw.

[ben crosland]

Don't worry, you'll save your money because they can never get that JP sound out of Virus TI, trust me. In fact ben already kind of admitted that trance is not his scene ("Not my scene tbh, but it helps me get a much clearer picture of what people expect. ") but d'n'b guys are gonna love the hypersaw + "minimoog" filter. In fact that's just the reason why a 100% JP supersaw replica cannot be done, if the designers are not fully aware of the original sound and how people expect it to sound. Like I said the filter is in very important role here too. And of course it's also a good thing that the hypersaw won't sound like jp supersaw.

My saying that 'trance is not my scene' is a long way off saying I can't do those sorts of sounds, and was not meant in any way to have an underlying meaning. There are also many sound designers who excel at them, so my abilities in that regard are irrelevant anyway.

Whether or not we can make sounds that would fool people into thinking they are hearing a JP remains to be seen (and tbh will almost certainly need a designer who owns both machines), but in actual fact it is not this which is important - what is important is that we can make patches which fulfill the requirements of these sounds, and I'm 100% confident that the TI can deliver.

[Merlot]

I agree with F5D about the "good thing." Personally, I think the supersaw is the most over-used synth sound in "trance" music today. The fucking thing is everywhere. Why would you want the virus to sound like the 80X0 box anyways. You buy a virus for the virus sound not the 80X0 sound. Just think of the "different" possible sounds that will be in your hands with the new hypersaw algorithim. All this being said, I can guarantee you the Hypersaw will probably become just as huge as the supersaw. THe thing will probably be all over records over the next 2-4 years or until access adds a new algorithim. Just my .02 :wink:

[ben crosland]

I agree with F5D about the "good thing." Personally, I think the supersaw is the most over-used synth sound in "trance" music today. The fucking thing is everywhere. Why would you want the virus to sound like the 80X0 box anyways. You buy a virus for the virus sound not the 80X0 sound. Just think of the "different" possible sounds that will be in your hands with the new hypersaw algorithim. All this being said, I can guarantee you the Hypersaw will probably become just as huge as the supersaw. THe thing will probably be all over records over the next 2-4 years or until access adds a new algorithim. Just my .02 :wink:

I agree with all of the above as well - but there will be plenty of potential users who want the supersaw leads and pads, that's for sure. I would certainly prefer it in the end if the TI sound becomes an extension to the palette, rather than waste it's potential in imitation.

Certainly, I won't be attempting 1-1 clones of the JP sounds for one simple reason: I can't be bothered. I find patch cloning to be very tedious, and when you try to emulate another instrument, you're always going to be on a loser from the start, as the fans of that instrument will never accept anything but the original. In the end I much prefer to take inspiration from other sounds, and then let the patch evolve into something I like playing with - patch creation has to be an enjoyable process, otherwise I find the magic is missing..

[Merlot]

In the end I much prefer to take inspiration from other sounds, and then let the patch evolve into something I like playing with - patch creation has to be an enjoyable process, otherwise I find the magic is missing..

Amen! :lol:

[ten]

I think its stupid to say a sound is over used in any genre of music. Is an electric guitar overused in metal? is a violin overused in classical? They are both used in 99% of songs in those genres but you never hear anything about that. A sound is what you make of it. I never tire of hearing the supersaw in trance as long as its used in a way that makes the song appealing to me, the same as any other sound. If a song does not appeal to me then its the producer that has failed to impress me, not the sounds involved.

ten

[Merlot]

I think its stupid to say a sound is over used in any genre of music. Is an electric guitar overused in metal? is a violin overused in classical? They are both used in 99% of songs in those genres but you never hear anything about that. A sound is what you make of it. I never tire of hearing the supersaw in trance as long as its used in a way that makes the song appealing to me, the same as any other sound.

To each their own. I can respect what you have to say here.

[Timo]

It think it'd be good if the Hypersaw sounded different to the Supersaw, as we already have the supersaw, although the supersaw is definately a hard act to follow!!

However, a modelled JP8 filter (amongst others) would be nice to add to the Moog in the Virus! :)

Mad - I'm really quite surprised how sweet that sounded without external processing. Like, radio-ready and rip roaring to go. It really does sound polished from the off. I've never had the chance to play with a JP80x0, though, but it sounds amazing.

The supersaw/hypersaw sounds like it would be great for moody film soundtracks, too, with long attacks and releases. Pads, etc.

[Wandering Kid]

I find patch cloning to be very tedious, and when you try to emulate another instrument, you're always going to be on a loser from the start, as the fans of that instrument will never accept anything but the original. In the end I much prefer to take inspiration from other sounds, and then let the patch evolve into something I like playing with - patch creation has to be an enjoyable process, otherwise I find the magic is missing..

you've actually summed up how i write music ;) pretty succintly too. thats why my username on tranceaddict is 'derivative'

my music is mostly derived from the inspiration i get from other songs. i hear a sound i like. i try to recreate it. but its never exact. and i always find something different about it which is worth evolving. and eventually it grows into something else.

i think those supersaw patches are a good starting point. to get to something which hopefully might just sound even better but in a slightly different way. good luck.

The fucking thing is everywhere. Why would you want the virus to sound like the 80X0 box anyways. You buy a virus for the virus sound not the 80X0 sound. Just think of the "different" possible sounds that will be in your hands with the new hypersaw algorithim.

you are right. the supersaw is a cliche. but theres a reason why sounds like this become cliched in the first place - because they sound fucking phat. the 303 is even more omnipresent than the supersaw and i still cant get enough of that sound. its so beautiful in its simplicity and its character. supersaws arent hard to build either. but theres something about that sound i cant get enough of. with just the right amount of detune (not too much mind) it has the pure string kind of quality. which is just...i dunno. really pure sounding. i can understand why people use it to death.

even when i become bored and jaded with these sounds, ill always remember how blown away i was when i first heard them and first tried to recreate them. im not about to deny anyone the pleasure to be had in building their first 303 acid line, or their first supersaw. or the pleasure of hearing it from a new generation of synthesizers.

that said. using the supersaw as a reference point for something to build upon. derive something new out of it. thats what im interested in with the TI hypersaw. ben's patches so far have been pretty stonking. im trying to imagine a cold wavetable crossing over into a warm, fat analogue hypersaw pad. hmmmmm. yummy. and once we've established what this thing can do in terms i can understand, i feel i can begin to start thinking about what else is possible on the machine. but i really am curious to hear if the hypersaw can hit that 'sweet spot' the JP can do with VA detuned spread leads. the regular virus could never quite touch upon that warmth and solidity that the JP had when it was full on. my virus b always sounds sibilant on the top end and when the filter is fully open it sounds mute and fuzzy. not fat and crunchy when im using multiple saws, detune, spread and unison. the virus is awesome for plucked type leads though. wow. thats one aspect of the virus i cant get enough of.

[F5D]

I think its stupid to say a sound is over used in any genre of music. Is an electric guitar overused in metal? is a violin overused in classical? They are both used in 99% of songs in those genres but you never hear anything about that. A sound is what you make of it. I never tire of hearing the supersaw in trance as long as its used in a way that makes the song appealing to me, the same as any other sound. If a song does not appeal to me then its the producer that has failed to impress me, not the sounds involved.

ten
I agree. It's not the instrument's fault if the player cannot play it well. I love the JP8000 supersaw and I love the virus too.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

For some reason when I played on the JP8000 I thought it was a pretty dull sounding synth. I spent about year with it.....and came to the conclusion it had aweful sounding filters. The JP8000 is not in the same league as the Jupiter 8......and im a little sick of hearing people refer to it 'erroneously' as just that.....

The JP8000 to my ears lacks warmth and presence.....its pretty cold and tiring on the ears. The build quality is not too great either.....

But hey, since dance/trance/techno music has its own 'sound' then the use of VA's such as the JP8000 is ok.....just not my cup of Earl Grey...

DS

[F5D]

DS, quite a scary post! 8O :lol:

In fact some analog synth sounds just don't fit into trance music. I like analog monosynth sounds but some leads and strings are impossible to make with some old analog synths. They sound too harsh or dark or something. Trance needs digital sounds. And the filter of the JP sounds wonderful to my ears. I like analog filters and usually they're always better than any digital ones but JP's filter is the best one to use with supersaw.

[i3]

As for bieng a jp8080 and previous virus c owner. I think the jp has a fatter saw. Not sayin the TI couldnt emulate the jp to a close degree. Until I get my hands on a TI time will tell. with Rolands great tone control the patches sound powerfull and crisp. still nothing like the sound of 2 slightly detuned super saws with light chorus in a performance patch. Both synths have their own unique lush sound.

[K.E.M.]

I think the JP8000 has a character that is not easily emultaed, which is why I want to get it again. It is a synth in it's own league and goes far beyond trying to emulate other things. It can do things not many other things can do as far as sound creation. For example...take the X Mod function..that can give you some CRAZY sounds.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

With unison on its 7x the supersaw waveform.

ten

Just for oscilator 1 isnt it? I cant remember the Jp8000 having that waveform on both oscilators. God, just shows you how long ago it is since ive last used one. Never liked the cold digital sound....

DS

[pseudonym]

I own the JP8000 and the 8080, and I have to say I've never used the supersaws in a track because the whole thing is so dated and tiresome.

The JP8000's filter opening up on a supersaw isn't uplifting at all. It's the equivalent of Power Ballads of the 80's. The power chords which were so unbelievably heart wrenching in their hey day, but significantly shit only a few years later. This is the EXACT same situation faced by Trance. It's over the top, and it's boring.

I wonder what instruments BT and Paul Van Dyk used to make the legendary trance tracks such as Binary Finary 1998 mix and Flaming June... They certainly weren't the supercheese trance leads we have been pounded with since 2000. They're more subtle, more mysterious, and more sophisticated than just banging out an arpeggiated supersaw.

My God, look it's 2005 for **** sake, that whole concept is dead and rotting.

Make something new, with new sounds.

[ten]

yea, i hate pianos, guitars and drums in pop music to....so dated now and tiresome :roll:

In all genres of music its how those sounds are used by the player/producer. Yes trance is saturated with saws, and a lot of it is shit, but there is still a LOT of good stuff being made, even with saws. Its not the instrument, its the person using it, right?

ten

[pseudonym]

yes, you're right...

but where else can one get a point across when 99% of Trance is so utterly shit and retarded, than smack bang in the middle of a debate about the supersaws.

I would personally love to hear some good trance, and someone who can breathe life into the supersaw by doing something new with it, will get my money 100%.

The fact is though, the people falling over themselves to make trance are focusing more on the cheddar sound of the supersaws than using a soulful approach, and trying to push the genre in a new direction, with fresh new sounds, which is what made trance so great all those years ago.

Trance as a concept is about embracing and imagining the future. Ask the lovers of the original wave of trance what it was that got them hooked, and the majority answer will be:

"...because it sounded like the future..."

What is futuristic about using sounds which have been used a million times for the last 6 years?

Aching for a JP8000 style supersaw on the Virus TI displays such a staggering lack of vision.


P.S. Would you please link me to a resource where the good trance is being made/played these days?

[ten]

Again, its how the sound is used, not the sound itself. The same as one mans noise is another mans music. Simply writing off a saw is like writing off a piano.

Trance is such a wide genre now its hard to define anything about it, future sounds I wouldnt agree on, at least not in 2005. Its evolved so much and taken elements from so many other genres, listen to tiestos new 'in search of sunrise 4' to see what kind of stuff the 'best trance dj in the world' is playing now.

As for a link you will have to be more specific. I still like the stuff Armin, Tiesto, Push etc are all making but I also like the newer moodier/funkier breed of Gabriel/Dresden and Andain. I also love the hard evil german banging shit like scot project, yoji biomenhanik, derb and kai tracid :)

ten

[pseudonym]

cool, okay.

if I give you some examples of stuff which completely blew me away, perhaps you could recommend someone similar..?

Tiesto I'm not interested in at all. Push was good, if they're still creating subtle and mysterious music, then I'm in.

Actually, the one track which really does if for me on so many levels is Subterra by Nikola Gala. Labelled Progressive House, but it holds all the values I associate with the great trance of years gone by.

I will check out the ones you mentioned, thanks.

[Timo]

I wonder what instruments BT and Paul Van Dyk used to make the legendary trance tracks such as Binary Finary 1998 mix and Flaming June... They certainly weren't the supercheese trance leads we have been pounded with since 2000. They're more subtle, more mysterious, and more sophisticated than just banging out an arpeggiated supersaw.

The lead used in BT's Flaming June was a preset directly lifted from the original Virus A.

[pseudonym]

Ace.

I have never owned a virus... I am looking forward to it very much :)

[marc]

The JP seems to fill up the spectrum much more evenly where as the virus tends to die in the high frequencies for some reason.

ten



i always thought the unison on the virus was very...hmmm...how should i say...'loose.' it sounds almost messy :\


Using a Virus|Powercore I tend to find the obove statements to be true. Could Ben or Marc maybe explain what this lack of high frequencies is due to?

-REMIDI

although i obviously don't know it for sure, the JP series sounds like there is a kind if master EQ which you cannot switch off. the virus' frequency response is dead flat and you can make it sound pretty much like the JP if you boost around 8k. i don't have my JP8080 at hand though, maybe you need to boost around 12k as well.

best, marc

[Seeyou]

although i obviously don't know it for sure, the JP series sounds like there is a kind if master EQ which you cannot switch off. the virus' frequency response is dead flat and you can make it sound pretty much like the JP if you boost around 8k. i don't have my JP8080 at hand though, maybe you need to boost around 12k as well.

best, marc

Hi everyone! this is my first post!!! :oops:
I used to own a Virus C but I sold it in November because of the announcement of the TI :?
Anyway. I figured out that beside EQing the highs of the virus, you can achieve better results in the higher frequencies by exciting. I personally use the Aphex exciter, model 250. It adds detail in the highs in an EXTREMELY discreet way, giving the virus an even more unique character that it already has. I have tried every excisting software eq, including Sony oxford (ProTools) and some software exciters but they didn't do the thing. It's odd though that we still have to use the analog domain to achieve certain things, especially with all this technology around us!

[Timo]

P.S. Would you please link me to a resource where the good trance is being made/played these days?

Pseudo, check out the ASOT (A State Of Trance) radio show played out by Armin van Buuren on Thursdays.

The radio show has recently moved from ETS-Global.org to its new location at Digitally Imported at www.di.fm.

Here's the direct link to the stream where ASOT will be played out: http://www.di.fm/mp3/trance.pls

I don't know where you're based in the world, but here are the different international times when it is broadcasted: Digitally Imported Radio (www.di.fm) every Thursday 2PM US Eastern / 7PM UK / 20:00 Central European Time on the Trance channel.

There's a lot of great new trance out there at the moment.

I especially love "Mike Foyle vs. Signalrunners - Love Theme Dusk" either the Mike Foyle's Gladiator mix or Mike's Broken Record mix.

And I absolutely love the Sensation white anthem 2005 "Armin van Buuren - Serenity".

Both absolutely f'kin awesome trance tunes!!! :D (still unreleased, but check out the radio rips).

[MADSTATION]

Seeyou...Welcome!

And thanks for the advice, I'll make sure to try out that exciter :)

[pseudonym]

cheers Timo,

I'm in Brighton, UK.


listening to that stream now...


...so far it's 'uplifting' cheddar, but I'm guessing there'll be some subtle stuff in the mix too. I'll stay tuned...

pseudo

[Timo]

cheers Timo,

I'm in Brighton, UK.

listening to that stream now...

...so far it's 'uplifting' cheddar, but I'm guessing there'll be some subtle stuff in the mix too. I'll stay tuned...

pseudo

Ignore the rest, just tune into that stream on thursdays, 7-9pm, to hear Armin's ASOT show. ;) I couldn't listen to di.fm for the rest of the time. :P Cheese city.

[Timo]

SeeYou, thanks for the exciter tips. I think Manuel Schleis may use some form of enhancer on his MP3 demos of his soundsets to give them more presence/bite, but I'm not sure. Anyone know? Or are they the raw Virus, with absolutely no external effects?

[ten]

He says the only effects he uses on the mp3 demos are some cubase reverb and mod delay.....he does make some bitching sounds :)

ten

[MADSTATION]

Seeyou: Just had a look @ the prices and the Aphex 250 is listed at 899$ USD, a bit over my range for an exciter. Is there any cheaper alternative for similar results? Worst comes to worst I'll make sure to rent one and if I really like it, I might just buy it :)

[TommyS]

Check out the aphex 204. :D

[Gopal]

Pseud:

You should really check out Juno Reactor if its trance with finesse and culture you are looking for. These guys take the cake if you ask me.

Futuristic symphonies at their finest :lol:

[pseudonym]

Each to their own and all that, but I have to say, I've checked out these recommendations:

Armin, Tiesto, Push, Gabriel/Dresden and Andain, Scot Project, Yoji Biomenhanik, Derb and Kai Tracid...

...and I am shocked that these are considered to be good examples of Trance moving forward. It's vapid. Soulless masturbation.

I'm off to check out Juno Reactor now... (fingers crossed)

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Souless Masturbation.....thats a great word man lol :lol:

DS

[pseudonym]

Well, it is...

"...look, this is how Trance goes like... Look, I'm making Trance, and it sounds like Trance, it has a hard beat man, totally tumping, and then after a while this uplifting lead comes in, starting all muffled and filtered, like the real passion about to take off is being suppressed by an unknown force, but then this force lifts, and the passion flows through the dance floor like a spirit, a spirit of pure techno and musical harmony and melody ..."

The only spirit involved in this music is the sticky vodka being spilt on the floor as the drunken twats who know no better than to dance to this mindless absurdity fall over eachother to 'go off'.

All meant in jest of course. It's just my style to completely ridicule some else's ideas of right and wrong ;)

[pseudonym]

Gopal,


wow...

I'm pretty intrigued by Juno Reactor... Not sure I like it yet, but it is certainly full of culture like you say.

I really enjoyed their score for the Matrix Reloaded...

Cheers man, will let you know how I get on with it.


//=================[ EDIT ]=====================//

No way!!! Unpredictable melodies in Trance??? What a _novel_ idea!

[ten]

All meant in jest of course. It's just my style to completely ridicule some else's ideas of right and wrong ;)

Its not a question of right or wrong, you just obviously have shit taste ;)

ten

[pseudonym]

lol

[Seeyou]

Seeyou: Just had a look @ the prices and the Aphex 250 is listed at 899$ USD, a bit over my range for an exciter. Is there any cheaper alternative for similar results? Worst comes to worst I'll make sure to rent one and if I really like it, I might just buy it :)
Yes. I would either suggest the 250 or the 204. I got mine for 140 Euros from E-bay (Germany). People don't really know what these things do or how they work so nobody is really interested. And there are a number of other patents regarding exciting, from manufacturers like BBE, SPL, Behringer and other, but they are really not that good. BBE uses a technology that has to do with phase shifting/inverting that doesn't really do the thing, because mids are excited too. SPL's Vitalizer enhances highs and lows. The highs are just EQed (could use an EQ instead) but the processing in the lows sound AMAZING. If someone needs a lows processor, SPL Vitalizer MKII rules! Behringer tries to offer something like aphex but it is just a cheap imitation (it's ok for the stereo in the bathroom :lol: ) . Aphex uses the best patent. The sound of the input gets *analogly* overdriven (distorted). Then, the highs (particularly the 3rd harmonic of the distorted sound) are filtered out of the distorted signal, processed and added back to the original input signal. This produces crystal clear higs, practically from nothing! The output signal doesn't sound distorted at all, in fact you get to hear highs that weren't there before the process! Hope you find this information interesting! And ... sorry about my english, it has in deed become a bit rusty :oops:

[MADSTATION]

Seeyou:
No worries ;)
I usually speak french so I understand how it feels heh

Thanks a lot for the great info...I'll try to find a 250 off ebay!
Is there any sites where I can listen to clips before/after being processed?
That would rock!

Thanks

[Seeyou]

Seeyou:

Is there any sites where I can listen to clips before/after being processed?
That would rock!

Thanks

You could send me something to apterus@gmail.com,
preferrably something of your own, something that you know 100% how it sounds, I can process it and send it back to you. Try sending it in .aac / 192 or .wma / 192!

[MADSTATION]

Great! That's very nice from you.

Email sent!

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Well, it is...

"...look, this is how Trance goes like... Look, I'm making Trance, and it sounds like Trance, it has a hard beat man, totally tumping, and then after a while this uplifting lead comes in, starting all muffled and filtered, like the real passion about to take off is being suppressed by an unknown force, but then this force lifts, and the passion flows through the dance floor like a spirit, a spirit of pure techno and musical harmony and melody ..."

The only spirit involved in this music is the sticky vodka being spilt on the floor as the drunken twats who know no better than to dance to this mindless absurdity fall over eachother to 'go off'.

All meant in jest of course. It's just my style to completely ridicule some else's ideas of right and wrong ;)

Excellant :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DS :P

[Seeyou]

Great! That's very nice from you.

Email sent!
Wow! very good work there!
The secret is not to apply the exciter to the whole mix because all the high-hats will be excited too and maybe you don't want that.If I apply the exciter to the whole mix, then the difference will not be that surprising. You get the most out of the exciter when you process one or two instruments in a mix and then compare it to the same mix, before using the exciter. (does the sentence make any sense??? 8O ).
Anyway, it got a bit late so I promise you will get the e-mail within 2 days max. If you can, send me a separate audio channel from one of your tracks for me to process (preferrably a virus!!!!) and see how the whole mix changes!!!

[Timo]

Great! That's very nice from you.

Email sent!
Wow! very good work there!

Post it! Post it! I love hearing audio demos of gear processing.

Panioptic still never sent me the Distressor demo. :(

[Seeyou]

Madstation: Demo sent!
Hope you enjoy it! But, as I said, maybe you will only apreciate the thing if you use it during mixing yourself. Anyway, if the demo helps you, I am truly glad! :lol:

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

My God, look it's 2005 for **** sake, that whole concept is dead and rotting. Make something new, with new sounds.

The trance and techno community have difficulty with this concept.

DS :lol:

[ten]

Says the guy obsessed with the 80s ;)

ten

[K.E.M.]

Wow..I had no idea my topic generated this much attention!. Lol

Well the conversation is starting to swerve off, but let me tell you my adventures since I've last posted.

I purchased the SH-32 and found that I probably won't be buying the MS2K for awhile, but I'll probably end up getting a JP8***, rack or keyboard, dunno yet. The Virus is too expensive for me, and I found that it isn't the same in character as the Virus, and while the Virus is very powerful and it's sound is technically evil and cool sounding, I don't see myself with a Virus, I see myself with a JP...maybe because I previosuly owned it before, and I've grown attached to it. Lol.

But otherwise...the SH-32 still kicks my ass, big time. I plan on using in it a guitar synth setup one of these days, because it kicks that much ass that I can go Amir Derakh on it. =D

It basically relies on built-in samples as waveforms, and from there it runs as a VA, so you're able to control all of the sounds as if it were a VA. It's very thick and warm sounding too, in my opinion.

Overall, my setup so far is:
-Korg Triton LE Workstation
-Korg DS-8 FM Synth
-Roland SH-32 "Quasi VA" Synth

I do plan on a Roland JP8 of some sort before the end of the year, as well as a kick ass production computer. =)

So yeah, I guess that's it for now...but I'll still be coming to the board, because while I wouldn't purchase the hardware version of the Virus, I would love to see myself with the Powercore, because that could help me make some ripping experimental tracks and stuff. =)

[vvanrij]

Ya I have a SH32 too, a good tip to get best sounds:

Go to performance mode
Set all patches to D88 (thats the init patch)
All osc's set to Wave Saw 12 (supersaw)
Now put the fine tunes as follow:

Part 1 Osc 1 Second line up
Part 1 Osc 2 Fourth line up
pan Part 1 to the FULL LEFT

Part 2 Osc 1 Second line down
Part 2 Osc 2 Fourth line down
pan Part 2 to the FULL RIGHT

Part 3 Osc 1 Second line up - 1 Octave down
Part 3 Osc 2 Fourth line up - 1 Octave down
pan Part 3 to the FULL LEFT

Part 4 Osc 1 Second line down - 1 Octave down
Part 4 Osc 2 Fourth line down - 1 Octave down
pan Part 4 to the FULL RIGHT

Hehehe, now just add some little reverb and delay, and you will be surprised :P (all resonance about 30-60. for the slight hiss)


Ya, it sometimes even beats my 8080 :D

-VR