USB blah blah blah

[acid1]

There has been a debate about the USB 1.0 spec for a while, Marc Schlaile on the access list had this to say about the USB:


the access website clearly states that the TI is an USB2 compatible device
with a communication speed of 12mbit. the reasons behind the implementation
were discussed on this list before and instead of going though it all again,
please read the list's archive first.

as for a successor for the TI, yes there probably will be something in a
couple of years (see Virus A, B, C) but for those who want the new
oscillators, all the delays, the programmable arp and the voice count etc.
etc. etc. maybe it's worth not entirely focusing on having 16 discreet
channel.

right now you get

2x stereo channels to the virus control
3x stereo analog outs

12 mbits allow up to 4 stereo channels in parallel, so the theoretical count
including the analog outs would be 7 stereo or 14 mono.

I agree that more is (nearly) always better but since we decided that the
successor of a previous virus should not be more expensive than the previous
model, some compromises had to be made.


so there you have it

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

I'm gonna get a N2X and wait for Access to release a synth where No Compromises have been made......

Its obvious that a TI MKii is going to come out......who in their right mind wants to buy a TI now.....particularly when the 'total integration' side of things have been publicly desimated? It comes down to this really.....do you want to spend ?1500 now on 4 stereo channels over USB....or wait 2 yrs and get all 16 stereo channels?

You do the maths.....you know what will happen. You'll get the TI for a while then as soon as the new one comes out....off go the mind loops.....and you'll be sitting at your desk at work thinking about how you could justify yet more money into the synth....

But then again......fuck the Integration/USB and just use the synth as a powerful VA. Personally I fall within this bracket of customer....

DS

[acid1]

well it still has the analog outs and spdif

what comprimes, do you want an individual channel per multi all over usb? imagine the work load on the dsp chips

plus they said the next ti won't come out for a few years

anyways digital, thats like the most negative i've seen you so far on this board, you alright?

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

well it still has the analog outs and spdif

what comprimes, do you want an individual channel per multi all over usb? imagine the work load on the dsp chips

plus they said the next ti won't come out for a few years

anyways digital, thats like the most negative i've seen you so far on this board, you alright?

Can the Total Integration bit still be used in its truest form if you use the analog outs? I thought it was only for the audio run over USB?

Yes Acid.....it was a negative post. In fact the last 5 posts by me have been quite negative. Im just pissed off with the world.....uni exams and all that. I just want the TI shipped and in my hands.....waiting 6 months has been a real challenge for me....

DS

[ten]

I think anyone waiting for the TI (especially people who have pre-ordered) have every right to be completely pissed off.

ten

[F5D]

USB1 is not cheaper to do than USB2 (or maybe $5 cheaper per synth so it has no effect on anything but designing). We're talking about synth which will cost over 2000 euros and still no usb2 or firewire! Using the USB1 because of expenses is not a good excuse at this price level. Why doesn't motu and rme use usb1 in their audio interfaces? Those things are even cheaper than the Virus TI and they use firewire! Even the firewire wouldn't cost much more. We're talking about +/- $20 here (usb1 vs. usb2 vs. firewire).

[Doc Jones]

agreed, I would have gladly paid extra to have usb 2 on the TI

[csl]

Agreed. Perhaps Access should consider a name change to Virus PI: Partly Integrated?

Physically having a USB2/Firewire can't cost noticably more to implement can it? I'm guessing there are programming difficulties or something...

Using half a dozen patches or so, then having to sub group them just to get into the VST environment seems pretty crippled. No wonder they went for true multipart effects - you'll need them.

[hackborn]

Agreed. Perhaps Access should consider a name change to Virus PI: Partly Integrated?

Ugh. Guys, sure all 16 channels over USB would be nice, and if Access' intention was to release this version then several months later release a slightly better model in hopes of getting your money again, that would be worth bitching over. But they made a business decision, decided they couldn't get 16 channels at the price they wanted, and did what they could -- and have now publically stated they plan on following the traditional release cycle of every several years. None of us knows the real technical reasons for this -- you can pull out costs on USB ports all you want but none of us has designed a hardware synth that streams audio data over USB, so either start claiming Access is just flat out lying about costs and has a hidden agenda or please try to drop it.

The thing that's really getting me is that no VST I use has 16 stereo outs. I drop down Halion in a track, I use the first pair of outs, occasionally the second -- but it only has 3 total. Same deal with absynth and z3ta and all the other softsynths I use. I've never once said "DAMN if only I had 10 more pairs of stereo outs."

Sure, it'd be nice. Sure everyone wants it. But it's not in this generation of hardware. Either use what's there or wait for the next.

[hatembr]

everybody seems to sum up the new virus to few USB stuff.
We have what we always dreamt of, seperate delay/reverb, more poly, more waveforms, wavetable, a bigger LCD, hey!! forgot all this?

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

We have what we always dreamt of, seperate delay/reverb, more poly, more waveforms, wavetable, a bigger LCD, hey!! forgot all this?

I dont think anyone has forgotten about these features. To be honest.....these features alone justify a new Virus :) . It is annoying however, that when you buy the TI....it *will* be superceeded by a better TI synth in a few years. I blame the way i feel on capitalist ideologies.....

I shouldnt really complain......new products drive the market....one just has to except this (I find it difficult sometimes).

DS

[hatembr]

It is annoying however, that when you buy the TI....it *will* be superceeded by a better TI synth in a few years.

This is true for every synth and every product in general, why did poeple buy Juno60 while they knew Roland could make the 106.. I mean it is so obvious Access will release new synths, whether they call it Virus TI or KI or ZI, what's the difference? there will be a better synth periodically.
DS, when you bought your KC you knew they were certainly working on a newer virus... :wink:

I shouldnt really complain......new products drive the market....one just has to except this .

so what?

(I find it difficult sometimes)

ah :wink:

[acid1]

i'm sure a lot of you would appear to glady pay the extra money for a "usb 2.0" output but its not like you pay 10 dollars more for a fancier plug...

you have to concider that the usb is just a door. the bandwidth is the size of the door. everything that goes in and out of the door is controlled by other things, ie: the motherboard, the dsp chips, the memory

if you guys wanted 96khz and 64 bit for 16 stereo channels which is 7.1 surround sound, i imagine that price of the TI would be at least double or triple (maybe quadrople)

I dunno about you but i'm not ready to spend 9k-12k on a VA. Access Virus will make a new TI some day yes, but will have to wait till hardware with this type of capabilities is cheap.

If you guys thought about this in desktop terms, you sound like "OMFG I want a pentium 9.0ghz with 20 gigs of ram, why doesn't Dell make that computer? I'd gladly pay 10 bucks more for a fancier Intel sticker"

heh

[Doc Jones]

good points. I was thinking that it would have been a few hundred dollars more for usb 2, but if were talking a thousand or more, then there's no doubt that that would have been a deal breaker for many. In the end, the new features and improvements are certainly enough to make me want to pick up a TI anyways. I'll just have to sell off some older synths to free up some analog ins on my Echo layla 24!

[nvisibl]

just use the synth as a powerful VA. Personally I fall within this bracket of customer....

Amen to that 8)
The integration stuff seems a little gimicky to me, might just be my ignorance

[markorbit]

I think this whole USB2 / Firewire thing is getting blown out of proportion to the detriment of the fantastic new features that you WILL be getting with the Virus TI.

It's still a tremendous leap from the C Series and more than justifies the upgrade in my book. I can't believe anybody would wait say, 18 months for the Firewire TI 2 upgrade - if it happens.

I've cancelled my pre-order but I'll be back checking the TI out when I can buy the thing!

[Fumer]

I'm still holding onto my order. I'm not missing the money too much up the moment. Though I live in and apartment with a roommate, I'm single, and I'm 23, so money is mainly just needed for school.

I don't really care too much about the USB stuff. I personally wnat it for the new filter and sounds and the capability to save and load patches on my computer through one easy usb connection instead of the hard way which I've never really been able to do. I'm buying for the synth, I don't use software synths, so therfore dont' care about those features.

[blay]

I think anyone waiting for the TI (especially people who have pre-ordered) have every right to be completely pissed off.

ten

...and slightly insane :evil:

i think people would be less concerned with the shortcomings of the TI if the thing was actually in their studio, and they could focus a little more on what the thing *can* do.

cheers

blay

[csl]

The thing that's really getting me is that no VST I use has 16 stereo outs. I drop down Halion in a track, I use the first pair of outs, occasionally the second -- but it only has 3 total. Same deal with absynth and z3ta and all the other softsynths I use. I've never once said "DAMN if only I had 10 more pairs of stereo outs."

Sure, it'd be nice. Sure everyone wants it. But it's not in this generation of hardware. But it's not in this generation of hardware. Either use what's there or wait for the next.

If you'll put your handbag away for one moment...

You're missing my point: Zeta/Absynth are single monotimbral synths, and therefore don't need more than one output. Halion, Kontakt etc are multitimbral, and you're not going to get very far trying to run drums, plus a few sample libraries out the same output, expecting to EQ and effect them individually using your favourite plugins.

All I'm saying is it's a shame that it looks as though TI will be limited in this respect, as having access to all the synths parts within a VST environment would have been superb. It's not Total Integration if two-thirds of the synth aren't integrated. I'm sure it'll be a great synth, but as a musician primarily working with software I'm sure you can understand this is my main concern.

For ?1500 you'll have to excuse me for wanting to know why Firewire/USB2 isn't feasible. For that price I can go and buy a Powercore + Virus VST for it (plus the usual plugins), and have change for a hardware Virus.

The TI looked on paper to be an elegant solution to all this, and respect to Access for pulling this off - it's the logical next step. But to have a 16-part synth and have just two stereo VST outputs? I'd rather they make another version that's just 2-part multitimbral with VST integration and cut the price to under a grand.

[Gopal]

You people are all so concerned about the USB thing. I just don't get it. It might be nice to see all your synth channels up on the screen in front of you, but if you are running your audio down USB, then you might as well be using a softsynth because you will no longer be getting the benefits of an output stage and some voltage running through your sound which is what gives hardware that raw edge to its sound.

If you want all channels up on a vst, get a softsynth and a USB controller.

/end rant

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

You people are all so concerned about the USB thing. I just don't get it. It might be nice to see all your synth channels up on the screen in front of you, but if you are running your audio down USB, then you might as well be using a softsynth because you will no longer be getting the benefits of an output stage and some voltage running through your sound which is what gives hardware that raw edge to its sound

Voltage doesnt effect the 'sound' of a digital signal does it? I think your thinking about true analogs synths here......

But as a side note......

Maybe we shouldnt complain about stereo outs over USB......most synth sounds *should* be recorded in mono....esp bass and leads. Pads benefit from stereo......question still arises....how much Virus do you want in one song. Personally, any more than 2 sounds in one song kinda makes a song boring. I say this even when considering Prophets and Jupiters.... More than 3 sounds from the same synth is not a good thing. So if you could have 16 channels over USB...would you use them all. Thats the question ive been asking myself. Maybe we should just except it :oops:

Well, you can tell ive been working overtime to rationalise my own concerns carn't you hehe

DS

[hackborn]

You're missing my point: Zeta/Absynth are single monotimbral synths, and therefore don't need more than one output. Halion, Kontakt etc are multitimbral

You're right, it was stupid to use zeta and absynth as examples. My mistake. But halion and all other multitimbral softsynths are still perfectly good examples.

and you're not going to get very far trying to run drums, plus a few sample libraries out the same output, expecting to EQ and effect them individually using your favourite plugins.

The point is that people have been doing exactly this for decades now without serious issue. Long before softsynths came along, we've still had multitimbral hardware synths with only 2 to 6 outputs, but I've never once seen someone complain because the Virus C only has 6 analog outs, and is therefore only 'partially integrated' with their 16 channel mixer.

You can still apply exactly the same techniques -- you can record 2 channels at a time and use effects at will. It will just be more convenient now.

All I'm saying is it's a shame that it looks as though TI will be limited in this respect, as having access to all the synths parts within a VST environment would have been superb. It's not Total Integration if two-thirds of the synth aren't integrated. I'm sure it'll be a great synth, but as a musician primarily working with software I'm sure you can understand this is my main concern.

I absolutely understand it's an issue -- I had the very same reaction when I first found out. And I know I shouldn't have said anything, since some people are just discovering the limitations and some will never get over it and there's nothing to be done about that. I just got frustated is all -- this coincided with a long complaint section on the access mailing list and I'm a little tired of the focus on an issue that is well known and thoroughly discussed. But my apologies for jumping at you.

For ?1500 you'll have to excuse me for wanting to know why Firewire/USB2 isn't feasible.

I understand you wanting to know, but what are you expecting at this point? Access' product management schedule? Technical design documents? They've stated plainly that the costs made it infeasible. I understand everyone would like to know more than that but after 3 months of talking about this I suspect they've said about as much as they're going to.

I'd rather they make another version that's just 2-part multitimbral with VST integration and cut the price to under a grand.

That's cool. I wanted something that's exactly like the desktop but 1U, no hardware UI and US$1200.

On the bright side of all this, maybe if they stretch out this release long enough firewire will be feasible...

That's a joke. I'm not an emoticon sort of person.

[ben crosland]

.how much Virus do you want in one song. Personally, any more than 2 sounds in one song kinda makes a song boring. I say this even when considering Prophets and Jupiters.... More than 3 sounds from the same synth is not a good thing. So if you could have 16 channels over USB...would you use them all.

That's the most sensible thing you've said all week, DS ;)

Seriously though, that's a damn good point. No-one in their right mind would really want to make an arrangement entirely from the same synth, unless they were a) making a demo for it, b) just trying out their new toy, or c) finding out that their first synthesizer isn't going to be their last..

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

That's the most sensible thing you've said all week, DS ;)

Hehe :lol:

DS

[ten]

Its about having the option.

I personally could quite easily use all 16 sounds in one song. This is not over saturating a song with the same synth at all.

The market is moving towards more realtime producing, as in people dont want to sit there recording tracks, loading a different sound, recording another etc. They want everything running at once in realtime.

The 16 sounds I would split up obviously. You could simply have the virus doing the pads for a song and then 15 other sounds like effects, abstract sounds, percussion etc....all kinds of things that you might of recorded before and used as audio files.

Anyhow, its not going to happen, we are stuck with 2 or 3 or whatever stereo streams it is over a poorly choosen usb1 speed interface, and will be stuck with it till the next virus so we may aswell get used to it.

ten

[Midi_Glider]

Its about having the option.

I personally could quite easily use all 16 sounds in one song. This is not over saturating a song with the same synth at all.

The market is moving towards more realtime producing, as in people dont want to sit there recording tracks, loading a different sound, recording another etc. They want everything running at once in realtime.

Precisely. not to mention the fact that you might just like the delay and reverb for a certain patch to be sent in a different audio stream from the dry signal in order to achieve different processing flexibilities (still not sure if it would be even possible on the TI). So I could definitely see my self using 16 outputs and even more if possible (don't want to be too greedy, though.. :wink: ).

BTW, this is my first post in this nice forum (a long time lurker, though). Hi all! :)


Best,
midi.

[acid1]

I think every VST loader on the market can only output 2 channels of audio, correct me if i'm wrong......








Yes you can have 16 parts of the virus in the vst plugin, but the output of the VST loader mixes them into 2 channels anyways

[Gopal]

You people are all so concerned about the USB thing. I just don't get it. It might be nice to see all your synth channels up on the screen in front of you, but if you are running your audio down USB, then you might as well be using a softsynth because you will no longer be getting the benefits of an output stage and some voltage running through your sound which is what gives hardware that raw edge to its sound

Voltage doesnt effect the 'sound' of a digital signal does it? I think your thinking about true analogs synths here......



What I'm referring to is that there is a pre-amp driving the output stage of the Virus, which has voltage running through it, and this is one of the key differences between softsynths and hardware synths seeing as the sounds are all generated by DSPs these days.

Without that physical output stage, what's the difference between hardware and software? Fuck all.

I work in the hi-fi industry, so trust me when I say that every piece of circuitry, every capacitor, every power supply and every pre-amp leaves its own imprint on the sound.

[blay]

I work in the hi-fi industry, so trust me when I say that every piece of circuitry, every capacitor, every power supply and every pre-amp leaves its own imprint on the sound.

Yep - a piece of audio gear is only as good as the weakest link in its signal path.

cheers

blay

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

I work in the hi-fi industry, so trust me when I say that every piece of circuitry, every capacitor, every power supply and every pre-amp leaves its own imprint on the sound.

One of my hobbies is high end hi-fi (well not true high end). You heard of Exposure? Talk Electronics? Great systems for sensible money ($10,000AUD, $10,500NZD, $7,600USD, ?4000, 5,600EUROS)

http://www.talkelectronics.com/index.html

DS

[Gopal]

I work in the hi-fi industry, so trust me when I say that every piece of circuitry, every capacitor, every power supply and every pre-amp leaves its own imprint on the sound.

One of my hobbies is high end hi-fi (well not true high end). You heard of Exposure? Talk Electronics? Great systems for sensible money ($10,000AUD, $10,500NZD, $7,600USD, ?4000, 5,600EUROS)

http://www.talkelectronics.com/index.html

DS

Yeah dude,

Haven't heard the Talk stuff running though. The rep tried to get us into it and also Conrad Johnston stuff, but he was a cock so we didn't take on his product lines :)

I sell, Meridian, Linn, B&W, Quad, Perreaux, Dynavector, Accuphase, Audio Research, Rotel, NAD, Marantz, Integra, Monitor Audio, Energy Veritas, Mirage, Image, etc etc.

I've got a cute little Linn system myself at the moment 8)