can BEN CROSSLAND and marc do me a special favour!! with TI

[technomonster]

TO BEN CROSSLAND AND MARC.

now that it seems like the TI will come out, everyone is extremely excited including myself.

I brought up a problem previously - the fact that i use LOGIC AUDIO 5.5.
on PC.

now in the manual it says the intergration will work with vst HOSTS, and of course LOGIC AUDIO 5.5 is one.

I also found out that maybe with LOGIC AUDIO it might not work as well, because VST has apparently improved over the last few years. (dont know how of course)

if marc and ben crossland have TI's in their studios, can they check to see how it goes with LOGIC AUDIO 5.5. and give us their verdict.

i am quite desperate to know and i do know heaps of musos who are still using LOGIC 5.5 in their studios especially dance music writers.
i dont want to buy the TI on 3RD OCTOBER if it doesnt work well enough with LOGIC 5.5.

i only have a certain amount of money and the change to apple will cut out the money i have for TI, i am also getting probrably the V-SYNTH as well.
i need to finish music project and need advise like this to make the right decision. i'm pretty sure their are other users of LOGIC 5.5 who would like to know.
I AM THINKING I MIGHT BE forced into getting pro-tools for my M-AUDIO 1010 soundcard. but again does the TI INTERGRATION work with that program.

I thougt that the VST standard was pretty set and would work with heaps of sequencer products.
Have access targeted only the big few like CUBASE and LOGIC 7 for MAC.

can ben crossland and marc help me here.
although LOGIC 5.5. might not be perfect for it - will it be good enough to cover the most number of appliances

how else can i find out.

[Tomer=Trance]

its been VST 2.0 for the past 4-5 years i belive,dont worry about it you wont have to buy a mac g5 and logic 7... :wink:

[technomonster]

actually i wont buy a G5 because if APPLE are going to bring out computers with INTEL chips, my logic says that buying a G5 is not a good idea.

So I will just stay with PC 5.5 UNTILL i see what happens, or get the
new pro-tools for DELTA 1010.

I think with the VSTi intergration the problems could be the lack of delay compensation in LOGIC AUDIO 5.5. but crikees LOGIC 7 hasnt got it either.

so mmmmmmmmmmmm.

[solconnection]

Hey mate :)

at the risk of sounding preachy, might it not be cheaper to just switch to cubase rather than buying a mac to stay on the logic apple cart? (when the time comes of course, it sounds like you wont have to worry for the TI)

i was a die hard logic 5.5 user for ages but the day came when i realised Its never going to progress, its a nice program but its already showing its age...ive had lots of problems with it that i simply never have anymore with cubase. (not being able to bounce a cpu maxed track because you cant record offline, rewire ports being swapped around and stuffing up your whole track when you instal a new rewire program, multi channel vsts such as battery not working properly all the time, missing sound files in old projects [cubase handles it so much smarter], having to go to a seperate audio program to do simple processing tasks, and so much more..)

they are the same programs with a slightly different interface when it comes down to it, it doesnt take that long to learn cubase and for all the smart extra features it comes with i can 100% endorse making the switch... im only using SX2 and already SX3 looks like it has some killer features up its sleeve.

i really miss emagics autofilter and tape delay though... :( i still bounce things into logic from time to time to use these features :)

have a nice day
-Dan

[technomonster]

solconnection wrote
not being able to bounce a cpu maxed track because you cant record offline,

what do you mean by that?

[solconnection]

afaik (and *please* correct me if im wrong because id love to know how to do this) logic records/bounces to .wav as it plays in real time....so when you want to record your track to .wav it plays it through and records as it goes. if your track gets really cpu heavy (which it always seems to when producing electronic music) and it starts stuttering or getting asio overloads your bounce will either have glitches in it or will be canceled.

in cubase it does it silently with a progress bar (in the way that reason does) and takes as long as it needs to produce a shiny unblemished rendered wav :)

have a nice day
-Dan

[ben crosland]

I mostly work in Logic 5.5.1 on PC, so I can confirm that it does work.

[technomonster]

Firstly to Ben Crossland,

thanks for that!!!
I am glad that someone who is abit of an electronics guru!! also uses LOGIC 5.5 on PC.
alot of people i know in australia still use logic 5.5 proffessionally, who were also caught out by the change, buying 5.5 just before the shocking announcement. They will be glad to hear the news.

I wont buy a MAC until the new intel brand comes out.

i will certainly buy the VIRUS TI on 3rd October now. yippppeeeeee.

Actually Ben , can you also help me on what ""SOLCONNECTION"" wrote.

SOLCONNECTION WROTE


afaik (and *please* correct me if im wrong because id love to know how to do this) logic records/bounces to .wav as it plays in real time....so when you want to record your track to .wav it plays it through and records as it goes. if your track gets really cpu heavy (which it always seems to when producing electronic music) and it starts stuttering or getting asio overloads your bounce will either have glitches in it or will be canceled.

in cubase it does it silently with a progress bar (in the way that reason does) and takes as long as it needs to produce a shiny unblemished rendered wav



have you ben come across this problem yet???? have you worked with heaps of audio tracks on LOGIC 5.5. have you had problems.

i have never bounced my audio tracks yet into a final stereo yet. all my tracks are still audio and midi. I hope their will be no problem.
i am still new to electronics music , coming from a classical background.
i still just listen to my stuff at home.

I thought that maybe SOLCONNECTIONS PROBLEM WAS A computer speed problem. Infact i know that LOGIC 7 actually at least halfs the speed of a bounce.
mmmmmmm

[F5D]

I think with the VSTi intergration the problems could be the lack of delay compensation in LOGIC AUDIO 5.5. but crikees LOGIC 7 hasnt got it either.

so mmmmmmmmmmmm.
Logic 7.1 has a full plugin delay compensation. Before 7.1 Logic has compensated only audio- and instrument tracks. But you can't use the TI in the buses anyway. Btw, I haven't used the full pdc in logic 7.1 yet. I use the normal delay compensation which doesn't include buses. This way I don't have to fight with my external synths latencies. If I put something in buses and the full pdc is on, the external synths will be out of sync, I guess.

[ben crosland]

Firstly, due to the fact that all of the sound of the TI is computed by the TI's DSP, only realtime bounces are possible (so long as you are bouncing TI tracks).

As for running it alongside loads of audio tracks, I tend not to do this as my PC has always had big problems with this, especially with Logic, so I can't really say. FWIW this has nothing to do with the TI's USB, as I have identical problems with my internal ASIO souncard.

The thing to realise is - with the Virus Control, it is extremely simple to bounce the Virus tracks down individually anyway, if it proves necessary for any reason and you can keep the midi tracks (muted), should you need them for further tweaking.

[MADSTATION]

I'm a bit surprised that the TI will export only in realtime export but it makes sense too. I just thought it would be working exactly like a vst(but without taking my precious cpu) hehe

[Khazul]

The thing to realise is - with the Virus Control, it is extremely simple to bounce the Virus tracks down individually anyway, if it proves necessary for any reason and you can keep the midi tracks (muted), should you need them for further tweaking.

This is the way I have allways worked in Cubase SX for midi devices - even midi guitar fx processors where I might record clean electric guitar and want to mess with or automate the fx later to produce the final processed guitar sound.

Basically record midi, tweak it, eventually bounce to audio, rinse, repeat as required ... :)

I did wonder if the Virus control plugin integrates in any way with the new 'external instrument' feature in SX 3.1?.

Not that I think im likely to use that - I dont find it a huge help with my Motif ES rack, and I still prefer to track midi and bounce to audio manually - maybe Im a bit old school in my approach, but its a workflow that works with all my synths and other gear rather than just the TI.

[tk]

I did wonder if the Virus control plugin integrates in any way with the new 'external instrument' feature in SX 3.1?.


No, it is designed to run under every AU/VST host. The Virus TI Integration is more than just a midi/audio port, it will also bring you sample accurate MIDI timing, real automation tracks (not just midi) and "total recall" in terms of all settings in the TI. The Virus Control is also your librarian at the same time.

Not that I think im likely to use that - I dont find it a huge help with my Motif ES rack, and I still prefer to track midi and bounce to audio manually - maybe Im a bit old school in my approach, but its a workflow that works with all my synths and other gear rather than just the TI.

When you speak in terms of just midi/audio, maybe. The TI currently does only allow 2 stereo outputs directly to the sequencers mixer, so bouncing single parts you need to mute the tracks you don't want to be in there.

For the question of realtime bounce: it is a must, since even the virus could render everything faster the digital audio stream through USB can not be accellerated or slowed down. So the transmission of 1 minute of audio takes 1 minute, digital or not. Therefore there is no way to accellerate the bouncing. The good news on that: it won't take LONGER. :-)

tk

[F5D]

As for running it alongside loads of audio tracks, I tend not to do this as my PC has always had big problems with this, especially with Logic, so I can't really say. FWIW this has nothing to do with the TI's USB, as I have identical problems with my internal ASIO souncard.

The thing to realise is - with the Virus Control, it is extremely simple to bounce the Virus tracks down individually anyway, if it proves necessary for any reason and you can keep the midi tracks (muted), should you need them for further tweaking.
I have a few questions:

1) How much does the Virus TI exactly need the computer's own cpu to run all those stereo streams into logic's mixer engine? 5%, 10%, 20% ? Is this the reason why you suggest bouncing the TI tracks? At least this is quite normal with uad1 and powercore too. They need some resources.

2) Can I use the TI as an audio unit synth plugin at the same time with my motu 828 mk2 which is usually monitoring 18 inputs (other hardware synths) at the same time?

3) I usually have about 60% load at both G5 processors in Logic 7 when my project is at the final stage so can I still use the Virus TI without bouncing it or do I have to bounce the TI? I use 512 samples buffer @ 44.1kHz because I have powercores and uad1 too so the buffer shouldn't be a problem. At least I was planning to use the TI always live without bouncing because it has so much power and channels with their own effects. In my opinion it's quite strange to bounce things when you have a machine this powerful in use.

edit.

4) Can you use the analog outs at the same time with the usb channels? So can you assign different parts to output to TI's analog outs? And if you decide not to use the usb transfer of audio, can you still use the virus plugin in the host sequencer to control the virus altough you would use only the analog outs?

[MADSTATION]

Hah
Great, thanks a lot for answering our questions :)

Can't wait :D

[Khazul]

Thanks for you comments tk :)

It will certainly be interesting to see how I end up working after I get the TI keyboard and figure out how best to best with it in the context of everything else.

My rig is based upon a PC with a Yamaha o1x+i88x for audio/mix and a UM880 midi patch bay, into which are plumbed a bunch of synths and outboard with SX 3.1 as my DAW controller. I currently use a V-Synth as my master keyboard - a role that the TI will take over mostly.

One of the reasons I still use Propellerhead's Reason alot is because its so easy to do lots of complex automation compared to working with synths and tracking then a part at a time - maybe finally the TI will give Reason like workflow in Cubase but with a really nice synth engine at last :)

[tk]

1) How much does the Virus TI exactly need the computer's own cpu to run all those stereo streams into logic's mixer engine? 5%, 10%, 20% ? Is this the reason why you suggest bouncing the TI tracks? At least this is quite normal with uad1 and powercore too. They need some resources.

This really depends on your computer, but it is in about the same range as a virus powercore, since a little bit of cpu time is of course needed to transport the audio streams and manage automation and midi events.
2) Can I use the TI as an audio unit synth plugin at the same time with my motu 828 mk2 which is usually monitoring 18 inputs (other hardware synths) at the same time?

Yes, you do not need to use the TI Audio interface, it is completely independent.

3) I usually have about 60% load at both G5 processors in Logic 7 when my project is at the final stage so can I still use the Virus TI without bouncing it or do I have to bounce the TI? I use 512 samples buffer @ 44.1kHz because I have powercores and uad1 too so the buffer shouldn't be a problem. At least I was planning to use the TI always live without bouncing because it has so much power and channels with their own effects. In my opinion it's quite strange to bounce things when you have a machine this powerful in use.
An example when you could need bouncing: if you want to separate a single part because you want to add an effect, but you need the other 2 stereo outs, so you would solo the part and bounce it. For nothing else you would need to bounce.

Maybe you also use up all the 80 voices, another reason for a bounce.

4) Can you use the analog outs at the same time with the usb channels? So can you assign different parts to output to TI's analog outs?

Yes, you can select the USB 1/2 as well as OUT 1-3, stereo each.
Note that there is a second output selectable for each part.

And if you decide not to use the usb transfer of audio, can you still use the virus plugin in the host sequencer to control the virus altough you would use only the analog outs?
Yes, you the routing is independent, but it won't take the load from the USB bus, these outs are just silent then.

I hope these are the answers you wanted.

tk

[technomonster]

to tk,

just another step.

if the audio doesnt need to go via the USB.
can the INTERFRATED SOFTWARE EDITOR work solely as how SOUNDDIVER worked on ACCESS VIRUS C, therefore just control the patches and I could still go via my 8*8 MIDSPORT for MIDI note sequences.

i know that that might sound like a stupid thing to want to do.
But sometimes I like a little bit of music out of time by a fraction.

[tk]

if the audio doesnt need to go via the USB.
can the INTERFRATED SOFTWARE EDITOR work solely as how SOUNDDIVER worked on ACCESS VIRUS C, therefore just control the patches and I could still go via my 8*8 MIDSPORT for MIDI note sequences.

The Virus Control needs the transmission over USB, since it is not possible to use the TI communication protocol over plain MIDI.

The internal audio streams are still there, even if they are silent.

If you are using the Virus Control, the external jacks are behave like a external midi interface to the computer, no MIDI is routed to the synth engine then.

Using the Virus TI over normal MIDI interface does work too, but it is the same as on the Virus C etc., no sample accurate timing and no latency compensation.

There is a detailed description in the manual, which is available for download.

tk

[F5D]

1) How much does the Virus TI exactly need the computer's own cpu to run all those stereo streams into logic's mixer engine? 5%, 10%, 20% ? Is this the reason why you suggest bouncing the TI tracks? At least this is quite normal with uad1 and powercore too. They need some resources.

This really depends on your computer, but it is in about the same range as a virus powercore, since a little bit of cpu time is of course needed to transport the audio streams and manage automation and midi events.
Thanks for the reply tk. Can you still give an example of the cpu usage with any computer in percentage, when using the TI and the 2 stereo streams and a couple of virus tracks playing at the same time? For example, with my computer the Virus Powercore needs about 2% of one 1.8GHz G5 cpu, when playing the virus (all 4 stereo-channels) in logic 7 @ 512 samples buffer and 44.1kHz.

How about the TI's polyphony, if you use about 5 tracks and 4 of them have their own reverb? It says that the TI uses the DSPs dynamically and I was just wondering if the 80 voices of polyphony is just a dream if about every sound uses a delay/reverb at the same time? Most of the sounds I use with Virus depend on the delay/reverb so I won't be turning it off.

[Khazul]

I would guess your best estimate of CPU use is going to be roughly inline with your current sound and midi hardware transporting the same amount of data.

I tend to find hardware rates as follows:
Best - good PCI based devices, then Firewire devices, then USB devices with not that much to choose between USB and firewire.

[Tokartta]

...it will also bring you sample accurate MIDI timing...

How is this handled in hosts without plugin delay compensation? Are you including a small plugin that you can put on a seperate bus which'll delay everything else by the value of the TI delay, like Universal Audio do with their UAD-1? If not, will the delay be reported on the UI (if it's constant) so that Voxengo Sample Delay etc can be used?

Also, have you been in contact with Image-Line regarding FL Studio compatability? They're working on a PDC solution for FLS 6, and it'd help them greatly if you could initiate a conversation, if anything just to make sure that there won't be any unexpected hiccups when the TI and FLS 6 are both available. They were recently appealing to users to suggest VST(i)s that incur latency so that they could test their solution.

Oh, and it's great to see you Access guys amongst the community. :) (and sorry if this has been asked before!)

[Midi_Glider]

How is this handled in hosts without plugin delay compensation?


I suspect you might have to compensate manually. luckily, most modern hosts do support PDC these days (even Fruity is going to have it it its next update).



Best,
midi.

[Midi_Glider]

If you are using the Virus Control, the external jacks are behave like a external midi interface to the computer, no MIDI is routed to the synth engine then.



Hmmmm. but does the virus control allow you to route the stream of a certain multi part to a physical out instead of the USB ?


Best,
midi.

[F5D]

If you are using the Virus Control, the external jacks are behave like a external midi interface to the computer, no MIDI is routed to the synth engine then.



Hmmmm. but does the virus control allow you to route the stream of a certain multi part to a physical out instead of the USB ?


Best,
midi.
Yes. This was answered somewhere above. However I don't know yet if those tracks will be compensated in anyway. If it doesn't compensate, I will do it manually like with all the other hardware synths I have. I will be using all the outputs, 2xusb + 3xanalog.

[Midi_Glider]

Nuendo 3.1 can now auto compensate for external synths routed trough the audio hardware (and actually treat external synths in a similar fashion to VSTi`s-very cool) so no problem for me there.


Best,
midi.

[F5D]

Nuendo 3.1 can now auto compensate for external synths routed trough the audio hardware (and actually treat external synths in a similar fashion to VSTi`s-very cool) so no problem for me there.


Best,
midi.
I guess you cannot use the TI with the nuendo's external synth plugin if you want to use the TI's virus control software. You have to use the Virus in normal hardware mode without the usb transfers if you want to use the nuendo's own external synth plugin. All the sound tweaking also must be done from the Virus' own control panel.

Logic 7.1 doesn't compensate external synths but that's not a problem if you know what you're doing. Maybe we'll see a delay compensated version of the external synth plugin in logic too in the future...

[Tokartta]

How is this handled in hosts without plugin delay compensation?

I suspect you might have to compensate manually. luckily, most modern hosts do support PDC these days (even Fruity is going to have it it its next update).

Best,
midi.

I'd need to know the delay, measured in samples, to do manual compenstation. If it isn't shown on the UI or documented then I can't. It need only be tiny text hidden away on some sort of about page that comes up when you click the Access logo or something. Whether FLS 6 will have 'full' PDC or not is still up in the air, and even then it's not due out until well after the TI is released.

[Midi_Glider]

I'd need to know the delay, measured in samples, to do manual compenstation.

This should be quite simple to check out:

1. write a midi part for the TI.

2. Bounce the part to an audio track.

3. compare the difference (in samples) between the original midi notes and corresponding audio event.


surely, this can be done in fruity, can`t it?


Best,
midi.

[Tokartta]

Well, yes. :P. Still, it'd be nice if I didn't have to. Also, if the delay varies, I'd have to do that regularly which is a real workflow bummer.

[Midi_Glider]

I guess you cannot use the TI with the nuendo's external synth plugin if you want to use the TI's virus control software


Well, not sure about that one. True, in the Nuendo external synth setup page you do have to define the output witch is used to drive the synth, but it doesn`t necessarily has to be a physical midi port. it can just be an internal midi port (i.e: virus control). guess we just have to wait and see.


Best,
midi.

[Midi_Glider]

Well, yes. . Still, it'd be nice if I didn't have to. Also, if the delay varies, I'd have to do that regularly which is a real workflow bummer.

Yeah, I agree. might be a good time to dump fruity then... :P


Best,
midi.