Virus TI and unstable MiDi handling - A serious matter

[index]

:!: I have to ask, have you noticed that the responsiveness of midi slows
down the more parts of the Virus you use at the same time :?:

EDit: I should clarify that im not using the Virus TI with the VST plugin, so
its not a case of Vcontrol bugs, im using plain old midi over USB cable.

Have you ever done a 6+ part project including #CC automation
with complete stable miditiming?

I use Cubase VST 32 5.1 as my midi sequenser, and are unable
to use the Virus TI in a multimbral way because of this problem.
After some 5 parts as well as recorded automation,
some elements of the Virus start to react slower
when recieving midi wich manifests in shuffle-effects on
some parts, and also in stuttering effects. Artifacts wich makes
the sequensing of music impossible.

I contacted Ben Crossland and sent him a midifile containing a
arrangment sysex dump as well as notes & #cc data.
And he responded that he got the same problems i have.

The reasons i post this here is:

1. The more people that discover the problems, the faster they will
be fixed - and that will mean that i can do what i bought this instrument for
in the first place - create and sequense music - not only use it in Singlemode.

2. Since no one else have reported such basic problems as bad midi timing.
I start to wonder if my trouble is connected to the use of sounds from my old VirusB banks that have been dumped into the TI.
Could it be that people that have not dumped VirusB or VirusC banks
suffer from less problems because the bugs is releated to the use of B/C
patches?

Here you can download the files and check this out for yourself.

http://web.telia.com/~u23704554/misc/bacill/unstablemidi.mp3
:arrow: Recorded audio of what it sounds like.

http://web.telia.com/~u23704554/misc/bacill/unstablemidi.mid
:arrow: Midi file with sysex dump as well as Note and #CC data.

If you use analog Output2 of the Virus - make sure you mute this output on the mixer, soundcard etc. before testing the midi file.
1. Enter Sequense mode, 2. Dump the arrangment, 3. Loop the notes

Hopefully, you will have a sense of rhytm to be able to hear that it sounds shuffled - but looks 100% straight 16th note quantizied in your sequenser.
To me - this is a very serious matter and until this have been fixed, at least i cant recommend anyone in getting the Virus TI.
The process of recepting and handling midi data is the most basic part of a modern synthesizer and has to work without flaws.

When people say they have no problems with their Virus TI it makes me wonder how much they really are using it. Send me a ordinary midi 16 part project that runs tight and i will believe you. :wink:

[Timo]

Haven't checked out the midi file (I take your word for it), but even on my dodgy laptop's speakers the audio mp3 certainly does sound like some dodgy jiggery pokery is happening, almost an increasing amount of groove/shuffle quantisation modulation as the piece evolves.

Do you get the same effect if you transmit the midi using standard 5-pin DINs (ie. not via the USB)?

[u4ia]

Actually I get something very similar when using the TI with VirusControl in Live 5.0. Using any type of midi controller data (panning or modulation) definitely makes it much worse. Almost like a data log jam in that the data can't get to the TI hardware fast enough.

But if remove VirusControl and just use Midi over usb then things run much better.

[ben crosland]

The midi file in question is churning out one helluva lot of cc and sysex data. It is not unheard of for this to affect note timing on playback - I've had this happen to me with other instruments even with the Atari (renowned for it's midi stability).

Personally, I'm not convinced this is a problem which is specific to the TI.

Nonetheless, it has been forwarded to Access - if there is anything untoward going on, I'm sure they will address it.

[index]

I did alot of automation just to really make the effect obviously hearable.
But when i do light projects with very little automation i still get timing problems, just that they are more subtle.

If i would have uploaded one of those there would be a few people with lesser sense of rhytm that would not be able to hear any big difference...
8O

But sure, give me some days and i can upload some more stuff, all wich
proves that the more midi you feed, the slower the virus gets - and there
is not much midi needed really. Just go beyond 5-6 parts and listen carefully.

And im sure its a case of the TI.

I would love still having a Virus B ready just now, and i would do a similar
test and it would prove to be rock steady - and handle midi not so the
engine get hiccups the more midi you feed it. But rather stop passing the midi information instead of making shuffled notes.

[ben crosland]

I would love still having a Virus B ready just now, and i would do a similar
test and it would prove to be rock steady - and handle midi not so the
engine get hiccups the more midi you feed it. But rather stop passing the midi information instead of making shuffled notes.

I have tried it on a B. It behaves no differently with that arrangement.

[Mister Orange]

The midi file in question is churning out one helluva lot of cc and sysex data.

Right, that would explain enough for me. One of my golden rules of midi sequencing, is never to embed sysex data in a running sequence. Control data should be fine, no probs.

Dump any necessary sysex data separate to the sequence, and then use control data to manipulate your sounds when the sequencer is running.

I'll take a look at the midi file later on.

Mr O

[index]

I would love still having a Virus B ready just now, and i would do a similar
test and it would prove to be rock steady - and handle midi not so the
engine get hiccups the more midi you feed it. But rather stop passing the midi information instead of making shuffled notes.

I have tried it on a B. It behaves no differently with that arrangement.

Then why did you report it to Access? If its just the case of me overusing sysex i cant see no point..??

[ben crosland]

I would love still having a Virus B ready just now, and i would do a similar
test and it would prove to be rock steady - and handle midi not so the
engine get hiccups the more midi you feed it. But rather stop passing the midi information instead of making shuffled notes.

I have tried it on a B. It behaves no differently with that arrangement.

Then why did you report it to Access? If its just the case of me overusing sysex i cant see no point..??

I tried your arrangement, it did what you described - I passed it on. It was only tonight that I tried it on the B.

[index]

Ok, i didnt know i was not allowed to change phaser and distortion
intensity on 4-5 parts at the same time. Forgive me for this mistake.
(Although i did not find this information in the manual??)

So i took the project, and stripped many tracks of automation and reduced everything down to:

5 tracks of CC# data and
one (1!) track of Sysex (altering of distortion intensity parameter)

And this is how it sounds:

http://web.telia.com/~u23704554/misc/bacill/unstablemidi2.mp3

For you to check out with your TI:

http://web.telia.com/~u23704554/misc/bacill/unstablemidi2.mid

If the VIRUS TI - CANT TAKE 5 F-CKING TRACKS OF CC# AND ONE TRACK OF SYSEX YOU SHOULD SERIOUSLY PUT A STICKER ON IT - MIDI CRIPPLED MACHINE......!!!

Im tired of the bullshit - please just give a working software.

[ben crosland]

And im sure its a case of the TI.

I would love still having a Virus B ready just now, and i would do a similar
test and it would prove to be rock steady - and handle midi not so the
engine get hiccups the more midi you feed it. But rather stop passing the midi information instead of making shuffled notes.

??

I don't think this has anything to do with the Virus B or TI - it's simply down to the sequencer. How is the Virus supposed to decide to start ingnoring some midi data, just in case there's a note coming sometime in the future?

FYI even the second .mid you posted reliably crashes my midi interface!

Does this tell you anything?

If you really want all these parameters to modulate simultaneously, try using an internal parameter, like an LFO to do it instead.

[Midi_Glider]

If you really want all these parameters to modulate simultaneously, try using an internal parameter, like an LFO to do it instead


and if one is using cubase, there is the 'Reduce controller data' function in the midi menu. applying that on busy parts might help in some cases.

Best,
midi.

[ben crosland]

Also, it should be mentioned that it is always preferrable to use polypressure for those parameters, rather than sysex (see manual).

[index]

Is it so that Poly Pressure was the default setting on the Virus B but Sysex is on the TI?
That would maybe explain for starters why i could do 10+ part projects wich included tons of mad automation - not the least with phaser and distortion (wich the TI spits out as sysex as default)

Anyway, i will try switching to poly pressure and see if i get any difference.

[index]

Ok - this time i stripped ALL automation - ALL sysex.... (As well as changed the internal Page B from Sysex to Poly Pressure)

And here is the new results:
(Recorded in a different tone so you dont think i have reused old recorded material)

http://web.telia.com/~u23704554/misc/bacill/unstablemidi3.mp3

What happens here in terms of mididata is monophonic note data being sent on 9 parts.

I would be VERY interested if you get the same results as i:

http://web.telia.com/~u23704554/misc/bacill/unstablemidi3.mid

http://web.telia.com/~u23704554/misc/bacill/unstablemidi3.all

If the .mid file gives you trouble again i have included the VST . All
file should at least be compatible with the SX series.


Id be very interested what the response to this will be.
And those of you with a TI, please try the project so we can
decide if its only me or if this is a reproducable problem for
everybody indicating a serious problem somewhere.

"Does this tell you anything?"

That you have a serious wimpy midi interface?

[Mister Orange]

"Ok - this time i stripped ALL automation - ALL sysex...."

"What happens here in terms of mididata is monophonic note data being sent on 9 parts."

"I would be VERY interested if you get the same results as i:"

"And those of you with a TI, please try the project so we can
decide if its only me or if this is a reproducable problem for
everybody indicating a serious problem somewhere."

Loaded it up into Logic 5.5.1 and it's rock solid to my ears. I'm using an MT4 midi interface. I tried altering the sounds for those with fast, sharp attacks, just to confirm, and it's definitely all tight.

This is an interesting sequence though; loads of identical tracks transmitting identical note data at identical times on different channels. This technique is vulnerable to midi logjamming, which is only serial data after all. Why don't you just send one track of note data, and get the different parts on the TI to respond to the same midi channel? Might be a solution?

Anyway, like I said, no problems on my system - tight as.

Mr O

[index]

Did you use the midi ports or midi via USB?

The reason i arranged the parts as i did was simply as a test, that is not how i normally work...
But whenever i start using the Virus TI multimbral its just a matter of time until some elements start with this behaviour.

It would be great if some more Cubase user could deny/confirm this also.

And Mister Orange, wich project did you test? The third version? Please try the first one also - because if you get that project (with more automation going on) to sound rock solid also, then it would be very interesting to find out why at least Ben had the same troubles with it as i did.

Could it be a matter of Cubase sequensers?

[EnjoyRC]

It would be great if some more Cubase user could deny/confirm this also.
There's a huge difference in the version of Cubase you're using and Cubase SX3.x.x

[TRN]

Hi.. I didn't test your MIDI file, but I can tell you this:

* The TI slows down when I use automation. Not only automation, I have also tried to use #CC and the TI still slows down. (no, it don't run "better" when switching from USB to MIDI... besides, I got the TI because it is advertised to be used as a plugin...hence TI!!)
* The TI crackles.
* TI can't sync/time properly.
* I've run a few patches that EATS the TI's CPU, and had max poly about 7-8 voices!?? WTF?... what can I say?(i havent really tried out his issue, so I might be wrong on this one)

I wonder when these issues will be fixed because i've had mine for a while now, but i'm about to return it if these issues with timing and all other shit it is suppose to handle isn't fixed!
It was fucking expensive, and it sounds great... Access is updating quite regular (thank God), but I'm running out of patience.
I will give this baby maybe a month more, but thats it.. Then I'll just return it, have my money back and buy some other hardware that actually works the way its suppose to.


- There actually aren't no excuse when you sell expensive hardware, and the thing isn't working as advertised. I know there are atleast one fella from Access watching this forum, and you really should keep us more updated.
I'm not putting Access down, i'm just telling a bit of what i feel after alot of failure with my expensive TI.



....waiting for v1.08 :?

- TRN

[index]

Would you be able to return it after a month? I would like to do that to, but i think its to late.
The store i bought it from says you have the right for exchange within 14 days, and i have had mine for a month or more.
However, this is not the case of a exchange because i didnt like the Virus, but that it does not work like it should for me.

I would be more than happy to return this, i was dumb to wait because if i resell it on the second hand market i would loose alot of money.

I cant see how people can put up with paying thousand of dollars for doing bughunting for months. I did the mistake in trusting that i payed for a complete product.

[TRN]

Yes of couse you can return it... These are issues that are promised to work(advertised), that doesent. The rules, atleast here in Norway is atleast 1 year warrenty for fabric-failure after sale.
Are you saying that if you buy a car that have serius issues that are discoverd after a while, isnt either fix/replaced or you'll have your money back? Access can say whatever they want, I didnt buy it from Access, I bought it from a music-store and the music-store is responsible for they'r products and they will have to deal with Access, not me.


...But like I've said, I wanne wait and see what Access will do (updates).
I wanne keep my TI, in a working order.


- TRN

[Mister Orange]

Did you use the midi ports or midi via USB?

I used the midi ports, connected up to an Emagic MT4 midi interface on an old 500MHz PC, running WinXP and Logic 5.5.1.

The reason i arranged the parts as i did was simply as a test, that is not how i normally work...
Phew, glad to hear it, although it was quite good actually. It just needed a 909 kick and it would have sounded loads better than some of the rubbish they play at some nights I can think of. :lol:

And Mister Orange, wich project did you test? The third version? Please try the first one also - because if you get that project (with more automation going on) to sound rock solid also, then it would be very interesting to find out why at least Ben had the same troubles with it as i did.
The third one. As I said in my earlier reply, I would have no faith in midi carrying sysex along with a running sequence. IMO, midi was simply never designed for sysex to be used in this way. That's what control messages are for.

By the way, don't read this as though I don't have other issues with the TI's stability. I just don't think it's the TI that's at fault in this case.

I will try your 1st sequence, maybe filtering out the sysex, or thinning out the cc data if it jams up. I'll let you know how I get on. But first, a little sleep.

Mr O

[grs]

How is the Virus supposed to decide to start ingnoring some midi data, just in case there's a note coming sometime in the future?


I think that's why the Virus Control vsti exists, with buffering it should be possible via USB midi to get 16 notes on 16 channels to hit all on the same beat and hopefully Access will come good on their 'sample accurate' promise.

With my experiments so far I have only experienced sample accurate timing when using Virus Control (open VST, load VC, save fxp, unload VC, power off TI, power on TI, load VC, load fxp) This was also slaving to the TI s/pdif output and recording the s/pdif output.

When you think about it, unless the TI sound engine is word clock accurate to your Asio card how can it deliver sample accurate precision? That last question is just an open question for people to ponder.

As a side question: Does anyone remember Steinbergs LTB technology for accepting midi data out of time (edit: ahead of time) and having the receiving midi device play the notes when they are actually scheduled to play?

[index]

By the way, don't read this as though I don't have other issues with the TI's stability. I just don't think it's the TI that's at fault in this case.

I will try your 1st sequence, maybe filtering out the sysex, or thinning out the cc data if it jams up. I'll let you know how I get on. But first, a little sleep.

Mr O

Thanks for testing.

If you have the USB cable connected also, try switching from the midiports to USB midi and see if its the same there.

[Zephod]

if you are using the regular midi ports, please be aware that a full event takes about a millisec to send.. a 9-note chord on 9 channels will therefore take at least 9 millisec to be transmitted.. human threshold for "instant" is about 6msec... human threshold for audible phasing is much lower than that.. combine this with sending CC's on those same channels, and the notes get spaced even further apart...

please note as well: 1msec per event implies maximum 1000 events per second per midicable... sending more than that will go out of sync by default ;-)

[index]

I dont even want to try to understand the mumbojumbo man. Any other synthesizer can easily have a melody running on many parts to fatten it up.
Its just that it does not work with my TI...

Today i started another project, and while it does not sound as bad as the example i have showed you it still does not feel tight compared to my other midi hardware.

No sysex involved, 5 parts, 2 tracks off cc automation.

The TI just is a wierd synthesizer overall. When i recorded Panorama into cubase, after have stopped the sequenser i see the Panorama -+ number in the display continue to switch back and forth as i was still moving it!!
The sequenser was stopped and did not send any midi... very very wierd.

[ben crosland]

I dont even want to try to understand the mumbojumbo man. Any other synthesizer can easily have a melody running on many parts to fatten it up.
Its just that it does not work with my TI...

Midi will always sound smudgy as you add more and more tracks. That's why certain artists refuse to use it at all.

Actually I tried file number 3 again today, and found the following:

1) Once I'd enabled midi clock to be sent to the Virus in SX3, it tightened up those messy delays. Note timing sounded OK.

2) Even so, there was occasional bad Dopplering - indicative of a sloppy midi clock signal.

3) Tried it in Logic - no Doppler effect at all..

I also tried my own simple midi stack test in both hosts, with a phase initialled single oscillator patch on 8 simultaneous tracks:

With no CC at all, the effect was a messy, phasey smudge. Zephod's explanation covers this - i.e. midi cannot play two notes at exactly the same time.

Adding CC to each track made little difference, if any in either host. I would not expect any hardware synth to behave differently in this test.

[Mister Orange]

By the way, don't read this as though I don't have other issues with the TI's stability. I just don't think it's the TI that's at fault in this case.

I will try your 1st sequence, maybe filtering out the sysex, or thinning out the cc data if it jams up. I'll let you know how I get on. But first, a little sleep.

Mr O

Thanks for testing.

If you have the USB cable connected also, try switching from the midiports to USB midi and see if its the same there.

I tried your first sequence last night, again using only midi cables and the same PC running Logic 5.5.1 and the MT4 midi interface. As I expected, all that sysex embedded in a running sequence really jammed the pipes up, but amazingly, Logic kept right on playing - some dopplering (as Ben calls it), but note timing was astonishingly tight. The TI behaved itself (yeah!!!), and even politely informed me at one point that the midi buffer was full. :)

Interestingly, the TI was still receiving sysex data 5 - 10 seconds after I stopped the sequencer, which goes to show how much backlog of midi data there was. Logic (and Notator in its previous incarnation on the Atari) always has been good as prioritising midi data, and was presumably giving priority to note data rather than the sysex. Perhaps Logic is better than Cubase in this respect, but that is a debate best left to a different thread.

I then stripped out the sysex, but left in the control data. It ran fine. No timing problems at all. Again, I changed some of the sounds to ensure they all had good, strong attacks and could detect no timing issues, phasing or Doppler effect.

Sorry, I haven't tested this with USB midi, and no, I don't have Cubase SX, but thanks for the opportunity to experiment thus far. My conclusion remains the same; i.e. that the issues here are to do with the limits of midi rather than the TI.

Mr O