Opinion(s) required...

[MonkeyMan]

At last! The first bits of my new studio arriving tomorrow, TI included.

The aim was to make the studio as virtual as possible - ie no external mixing desk. But seeing as the "total integration" on the Ti is not quite as good as it should be (at the moment) I will be using the 3 pairs of stereo outs - for the time being...

What would be a good way to get the three stereo outs into my system? I have been looking at the RME ADI range - I am thinking that I just need decent A/D (keeping in mind I already have an Apogee Rosetta 200 for my D/A mastering) But then I could be going down the wrong route.

Apple G5 dual-core (running Logic 7)
Apogee Rosetta 200
Access Virus TI (keyboard)
Mackie Control Universal
Dynaudio BM5a's

Any thoughts from the wise guys would be much appreciated.

[Tomer=Trance]

crap,
get some good old atari computer and a SID machine and start rockin',80s style! 8O

nah,just joking
awesome setup,do forget to spend some money on decent cabels and proper acustic treatment.

[MonkeyMan]

SID chip - C64. Sigh... now that takes me back. Martin Galway battling Rob Hubbard for the music crown, chocolate digestives washed down with coca cola, jumpers for goalposts... Out of interest it's either Delta or Wizball for me.

About 7 years ago I remember reading a review in Future Music of a proper dedicated SID synth hardware unit. I cannot for the life of me remember what it was called.

Cheers bud noted. Decent cables - and acoustic treatments.

Any ideas on the stereo input solution?

[Timo]

SID chip - C64. Sigh... now that takes me back. Martin Galway battling Rob Hubbard for the music crown, chocolate digestives washed down with coca cola, jumpers for goalposts... Out of interest it's either Delta or Wizball for me.

http://www.hvsc.c64.org/

Days of reminiscing and shed loads of musical inspiration there. Awesome stuff.

About 7 years ago I remember reading a review in Future Music of a proper dedicated SID synth hardware unit. I cannot for the life of me remember what it was called.

Elektron SIDStation (http://www.sidstation.com/)

Spawned one of my very favourite club tracks of the late 90's, "Kernkraft400" by Zombie Nation (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan01/articles/tracks.asp) (which, in turn, was inspired from the C64 game Lazy Jones).

The SID-Stations ain't half pricey units, though! I still lust after a couple. ?400 each the last time I checked. :|

Of course there are the "QuadraSID" and "Quantum64" VST-Is which were at least inspired by the SID chip, but I digress...

However, there are PCI cards with SID chips implanted on them for integrating with PCs. :) http://www.hardsid.com/

[Doc Jones]

I personally don't have any experience with the ADI line but, in general, the rme lines have a very good reputation. I have been thinking about replacing my layla 24 (to go with a firewire solution) and the fireface 800, hands down, comes out on top. It's an expensive beast, but really seems to outshine all other competitors in it's class. I think the adi line is highly touted as well.

[MonkeyMan]

Cheers Doc. Yes I am seriously considering the RME Fireface 800 for my A/D - with the Apogee Rosetta 200 taking care of my D/A and mastering duties.

The Motu range looks very interesting aswell - particularly the Traveler. I have been reading some very good things about it - and it is considerably cheaper than the RME 800 - but this is making me seriously doubt the quality of the unit.

Too much bloody choice!

Timo that QuadSID sounds very nice - have you heard the Vanguard synth made by the same company? It is fucking awesome.

[Doc Jones]

yeah, definitely let me know what you ended up going with and how it works out. I am thinking about replacing my layla 24 soon.

[MonkeyMan]

Doc. Sacked the Apogee Rosetta 200 and I'm going for the Apogee Rosetta 800 96k and the X-firewire board - job well and truly done. I can get all the TI stereo outputs straight in through a DSUB to 1/4 jack connector - and have a couple of inputs spare!

Just sorting out a deal with sweetwater.com - unless anyone knows a better US dealer to go through...

[Khazul]

I used to have grand ideas of a virtual studio - then I decided it was a pain in the ass allways having to depend upon an overly stressed computer and millions of knobs (on DAW controllers) with no labels on them, then add audio lag/latency etc etc - came to the conclusion that its a dream for one day, but right now it just aint there - computers need to imporve alot.

So I've since gone down the integration route instead - external mixer thats also my daw controller and sound interface (also has channel strips and fx) - means I allways have a good monitor mix, have zero latency and very good integration - more or less everything in audio routing and levels is (or can be) controlled for my mixer. The huge advantage in this is I still have a fully functioning sound system for playing with the coimputer switched off (or otherwise engaged).

If you do want to go down the virtual route - consider hardware assist - RME PCI cards are definately worth a look as they have built in audio matrix/mixer in hardware. You will probably also want a good DAW controller - for larger rigs (or more spread out) maybe a main controller and a wireless one - which is where Im going so I can control DAW tracking from some distance away from the comp.

If I hadnt gone for combined external mixer/controller/sound interface - then I would have gone for one of the newer range or RME PCI cards and added an external digital mixer to it via light pipes.

[MonkeyMan]

Khazul - totally depends on what computer you are running your virtual studio on pal - and what you want to achieve/create.

I have just picked up a new Apple Mac DualCore G5 running Logic 7.1.1 and I have to say that it has totally blown me away. My TI arrived roughly at the same time and it has taken second fiddle (at the moment!)

The sheer power and usability of all of the many standard virtual synths, instruments, loops and excellent powerful FX (Space Designer reverb is awesome) IMHO is second to none out there at the moment. For what I want to achieve my virtual studio has arrived and will only gain more power and features with future updates. Logic runs so smooth on the G5.

Although dubious at first I am glad I sold all of my old external kit - even though it hurt considering what I originally paid for it! It is so much bloody easier.

Using Logic with my Mackie Control Universal has negated the need for me to ever consider getting another external mixing desk. The only slight issue I have is with regard to getting high-end D/A A/D conversion. My music production will be entirely electronic/dance based, no need for any mic inputs for vocals or drum kits - when I need to I will pop into a pro studio for vocals and just take along my Logic project with me on my external hd.

My research lead me to two units. The RME Fireface 800 and the Apogee Rosetta 800 96k. There are many features on the RME that I will never use, so I am swaying towards the Rosetta. I can use the Rosetta's DSUB to Jack connectors to get my TI's lovely audio outputs into Logic, and still have a spare stereo input. I need to get down a pro audio store and do a direct comparison between the two units and see whether the Apogee warrants the extra cash.

It would also be good to hear anyone else's opinion on using Apogee over RME. I suppose at the end of the day you get what you pay for...

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

In terms of audio quality does the RME piss on a Delta 10/10? Just wondering...

DS

[Timo]

Yes, I think so. The 10/10 is getting on a bit now so it's obviously going to be lesser featured/spec'd than a new RME card. The 10/10's still a very nice card, though. Amongst the best of its class at the time. Bet you'd be able to get quite a good deal on them now second hand or the like.

[Timo]

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan00/articles/midiman1010.htm

Got a good review at the time (Jan' 2000).

From remembering a MASSIVE thread on the SoS forums a couple of years ago, I think that using multiple 1010s on a single computer using Windows XP was very buggy. Wonder if they ever got that fixed. But otherwise it'd probably still be a good choice if you're sticking with PCI for a while are are just using 1 x 1010 card. On the other hand, I think the review mentions the lowest latency to be 8ms @ 44.1KHz, which may or may not affect you. If you ramp up the recording freq to 96KHz your latency can be as low as 5ms, it says, but then that'll increase the CPU resources used (and HD space) if you're doing stuff in realtime.

[MonkeyMan]

DS - totally agree with Timo. The 10/10 was a fantastic card when it first arrived. I think that the RME range is audibly superior - and the build quality will be hard to beat at any price.

If I could not stretch my budget to the Apogee range - I would most definitely go for the RME range.

Just remember... one of the most overlooked and critical components of any DAW is the quality of the A/D D/A convertors. You will need to spend cash to get a "high end" dynamic sound quality - do not cut corners as you really do get what you pay for.

As Tripitaka from Monkey once said, "You cannot polish a turd."

[Wandering Kid]

surely the turd polishing reference means: throwing 10s of thousands of dollars at something wont make it better. you have to do that yourself.

it is odd, coming from a painting background that such weight is given to the importance of the tools of the trade in music production, as opposed to the skill of the artist at making the most of those tools. When i was painting, a brush was a brush was a brush. and a graphics tablet was a graphics tablet. it didnt really matter what you used, so long as you were comfortable with using it. having thousands of dollars worth of airbrushes and a wacom tablet the size of a pool table didnt make you good at painting, only you yourself could do that.

perhaps this is just me? :(

[MonkeyMan]

WK. Quite simply rubbish in = rubbish out. There is no question in that.

But as previously mentioned one area that should not be overlooked is the quality of your A/D D/A conversion. With the wrong choice of converters no matter how excellent or well played the input sound may be it can sound bloody awful once your creative masterpiece is dithered down to 44.1 kHz 16bit CD. This was one of the key issues with the first generation of audio CD's and CD players - the sound was very harsh due to poor conversion. So in this case yes your reasoning is flawed. Decent conversion does cost decent money.

But I do see the angle you are coming from. More kit is not always best - as there can be an emphasis on tools rather than creative flow and output. Liam Howlett from the Prodigy is the best example I can give - after having a modest personal studio and producing some of the most influential and best selling dance music of the 90's, his studio went into overdrive on getting kit. In his own words he totally lost the plot and his output was killed due to overdosing on too much kit and not getting the best out of it. He was only saved when a learned studio engineer told him to get back to basics. So he binned his kit - bought a laptop and a copy of Reason and never looked back.

My old trusted Atari ST running Creator was a fantastically stable rock solid piece of kit (I produced my first white label records on this) - but to suggest not to progress and move to an Apple Mac G5 running Logic 7 is sheer madness.

Onwards and upwards - never backwards.

[Timo]

But I do see the angle you are coming from. More kit is not always best - as there can be an emphasis on tools rather than creative flow and output. Liam Howlett from the Prodigy is the best example I can give - after having a modest personal studio and producing some of the most influential and best selling dance music of the 90's, his studio went into overdrive on getting kit. In his own words he totally lost the plot and his output was killed due to overdosing on too much kit and not getting the best out of it. He was only saved when a learned studio engineer told him to get back to basics. So he binned his kit - bought a laptop and a copy of Reason and never looked back.

And I, albeit personally, happen to believe that was Howlett's worst album yet (regards production/recording quality).

However, absolutely fantastic tunes/albums were made in the 90's using gear that, strangely enough, weren't made this side of the millennium! But inbuilt human psychology is led to believe newer/expensive is better. Often, yes, but not always, imho.
I'd say there's a certain threshold (price-wise) that, when you pass it, exponentially incremental cash injections aren't necessarily going to give you exponential differences.

Obviously, though, a ?100,000+ Neve or SSL console is always going to sound massively better than your average Mackie 8-buss, but you'd need to amass the huge wealth of knowledge needed in order to fully take advantage of the extra specs. Crappy example, but it's no good having something like a lovely top-end soundcard or console if you have a ground loop elsewhere in the chain simply because you don't know how to fix it!

It's better to spend that extra cash on something that's going to make the largest difference to your end result (ie. the finished audio), admittedly while giving a nod towards allowing for room for experimentation and growing into it (as opposed to growing out of it too quickly). As one different example, getting a mixer with more channels than you currently need.... blah blah...

I've prob'ly gone off on a tangent here, thus... nuff splother from me i'm off to make some choonz. :)

[Hollowcell]

Liam Howlett from the Prodigy is the best example I can give - after having a modest personal studio and producing some of the most influential and best selling dance music of the 90's, his studio went into overdrive on getting kit. In his own words he totally lost the plot and his output was killed due to overdosing on too much kit and not getting the best out of it. He was only saved when a learned studio engineer told him to get back to basics. So he binned his kit - bought a laptop and a copy of Reason and never looked back.

I have to back up Timo in his answer to this. I'm a huge Howlett fan, and there is no doubt that FOTL is the best produced album he has released.

I do think there is a need for better quality conversion, specially when recording accoustic/real instruments, but the 'spec emphisis' is getting out of control with dance music.

There is a reason that software manufactures are trying to obtain that still elusive old school sound. For example Roland with it's D-50 Vcard even emulates the old DA conversion for it's appeal. Some software samplers even have options to mimick 12bit too.

Now I'm not saying that having shitty sound card converters is a good thing. I'm just saying there are certain characturistics of the older, "shity" gear which is appealing.

[MonkeyMan]

Totally agree. Mixing up classic 8-bit drum samples on 24-bit recording can sound fantastic - if the sonic pilot knows what he is doing...

But to record solely in classic 8-bit well... horses for courses I suppose! (think boards of canada) Having just recently got into listening to Sigur Ros (great experimental band) - these guys are the perfect advocate for this point. There was a recent magazine interview in which they stress the point of mixing up high end bit rates and lo rates - it's one of the reasons which gives them their unique sound, almost beauty and the beast.

Yep. With the exception of 3 tracks the last Prodigy Album was below par - but when you realise the immense production problems Liam Howlett got himself into it's amazing he got through it and completed it. In one article he was quoted as saying that he had spent the best part of 3 months just trying to get the drum loops for 1 track sorted!!

But anyhoo... Has anyone done a direct comparison between a RME Fireface 800 and an Apogee Rosetta 800 96k? As always everyones valuable opinions are very useful.