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Timo
11.02.2008, 10:28 PM
Matt noted an interest in my new proposed build, so here are the specifics in case anyone else is interested.

Will be building it over the next month, as the CPU I'm after is to be released (at the earliest, depending on availability) March 17th.

* CPU: Intel Q9450 (specs: Intel Core 2 Quad 2.66GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 12MB L2, SSE4, 45nm, LGA 775 socket).

The Q9450 will effectively be the successor to the current Q6600 (Intel Core 2 Quad 2.4GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 8MB L2 cache, SSE3, 65nm) of the same 775 socket.

Reason for choice: Both Q6600 or Q9450 are dead cheap, offer stacks of processing power, and don't run too hot. At the moment the AMD stuff simply can't compete (which, incidently, is why the Q9450 is being released two months late, Intel, you barstards! :) Should've been a January 17th release.)

The Q6600 with the G0 stepping is now £158 which is awesome value, and the G0 version is a great overclocker. The Q9450 will be £219 at release. I'm deciding to go with the latter as it will generate less heat/wattage (due to the 45nm architecture), has 4MB extra L2 cache and, as I'm not intending on upgrading for the next few years, it supports SSE4 for future programs/apps. It's not quite so good as the Q6600 for OCing, though, as it has a locked multiplier of x8 (as opposed to the x8.5 of the Q6600).

* Motherboard: The current Intel DP35DP favourite with audio geeks (based on the Intel P35 chipset) used for the current Q6600 quads will also be able to use the new 1333MHz FSB based quads (ie. Q9450) with a simple BIOS update, so this is what I'll be using.

Reasons: Reknowned stability for audio use. Sports a Texas Instruments native firewire chipset, which is ideal for high-bandwidth, low-latency firewire audio (I have a Motu Traveller firewire soundcard). Also has: 3 x PCI slots, 3 x PCI-Express x1 slots, 1 x PCI-Express x16 (graphics) slot, 6 x SATA channels, 1 x PATA channel, support for 12 x USB v2 ports, 2 x firewire (one internal, one external). Basically a decent all-rounder, and also inexpensive. Not amazing for overclocking, feature-wise, but I'm not intending on going overboard, so this is a non-issue.

* RAM: 2 x 2GB DDR2 PC2-6400 (800MHz) CA5 Corsair RAM.

Reason for choice: The DP35DP motherboard dictates that only 1.8v RAM modules can be used (as opposed to the 2.1v variety), and that the RAM timings must be 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 for 800MHz modules.

If my maths and computer system theory is correct, as the FSB is quad-pumped (irrelevant to the quad cores on the CPU) the CPU itself would need to be greater than 3.2GHz before it would benefit from RAM speeds higher than 800MHz.

(4 [quad pumped FSB rate] x 800MHz [RAM speed] = 3.2GHz [CPU])

So the 2.66GHz CPU is well within these limits for optimal 800MHz RAM usage. Even 667MHz RAM could stretch to that upper limit (667MHz [RAM speed] x 4 [quad pumped FSB rate] = 2.66GHz [CPU]), but there would be no headroom.

However, if ever I wanted to overclock the CPU to 3.2GHz, because the CPU has a locked multiplier of x8, an FSB buss overclock speed of 400MHz can be chosen (3200MHz [CPU] / 8 [CPU multiplier] = 400MHz [FSB speed]), which is probably what I will be doing as opposed to using the default FSB of 333MHz (for the default 2.66GHz CPU and effective full rated FSB speed of 1333MHz). I wouldn't like to go further than 450MHz FSB (= 3.6GHz CPU, overall effective FSB of 1800MHz) using just air-cooling, though, and certainly for a 4GHz CPU the required 500MHz FSB overclock (effectively 2000MHz FSB overall) would be out of the question!

But, if you think about it, if all cores are used at the same time, which they pretty much are in multi-threaded applications like sequencers, and if you overclocked the 2.66GHz CPU to 3.2GHz, it'd give you a theoretical speed of 12.8GHz at full tilt (3.2GHz[CPU] x 4[cores] = 12.8GHz) if utilised at 100% efficiency. Now the Core 2 architecture is between 1.5x and 2x times faster than an equivalently rated Pentium 4 (from years ago), due to increased efficiency on a clock-cycle per clock-cycle basis, so the comparable speed would be akin to anything between a 19.2GHz to 25.6GHz Pentium 4. Enough, methinks!

Note: On a XP32 system partition I think only 3.5GB of RAM can be "seen" and used by the system. Only under 64-bit will the full 4GB be accessible (incidently I think you can install up to 8GB on this board for 64-bit usage).

* OS: Dual boot: Windows XP 32-bit, and Windows Vista 64-bit.

It'll be dual-boot XP32 and V64, running them in parallel to see what I'll stand to lose in the move to V64 (my eventual goal, seeing as the CPU & mobo support the full 64-bits, and that more and more applications natively support 64-bit).

However, I've just learnt that Vista and XP on the same system disk may be asking for trouble if ever Vista becomes corrupted, as Vista alters the MBR (master boot record) in such a way that you wouldn't even be able to boot into your other XP partition if that occurs. So it looks like two physical system hard-drives are on the cards.

* Graphics: EVGA 512MB nVidia 8800GT

Reason: A bit of a luxury I've allowed myself. The nVidia 8800GT is nearly as powerful as their flagship 8800GTX, but at a much lower price point, and with a lot less heat (the GT version was released a while after the rest of the series, but uses a new 45nm architecture compared with all of the other 8800 cards of the same series). A no brainer, reading all the reviews. Looks like it's a great card and tbh I can't see myself upgrading.

There's loads of 8800GTs by different manufacturers, though, but EVGA allegedly give free warranty for life (this is something I'm double checking), so I think that'll my choice if so. I can't see myself upgrading to anything else in the next few years, I'm not a heavy gamer.

If the card ever runs too noisily I may possibly slap a Thermalrite HR-03 (http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=16211) on it for passive cooling while taking advantage of passive air-currents from the main CPU's Zalman fan.

* CPU cooler: will either be the horizontally mounted Zalman CNPS8700NT (http://www.shopbot.ca/i-ca/2007/6/2422754229_small.jpg), or the vertically mounted Zalman CNPS9500 or CNPS9700 (http://www.elara.ie/products/images/products/9700_9500.jpg), or something like the Thermaltake 120 (http://www.thermaltake.com/product/Cooler/Retail/CL-P0310-01/+_image/03_angleview_450.gif).

[edit]Actually, looking at the DP35DP motherboard (http://www.intel.com/products/motherboard/pix/dp35dp_lg.jpg), the northbridge heatsink looks damn tall, which means I'll have to drop the horizontally mounted fan idea, as clearance might be an issue.

* Hard-disks:
WD Caviar Sata2 250GB 16mb (system XP32 + data/backups)
WD Caviar Sata2 500GB 16mb (system Vista64 + data)
Maxtor Diamond Max9 IDE 300GB (data) (one of my old IDE drives)

* PSU: Seasonic S-12

Either the 430 or 500W version.

Reason: High quality, stable wattage throughput under load, and quiet. The Seasonic PSUs are often recommended and used in commercial audio installs.

* Case: Nzxt Lexa case.

http://www.comtec.ca/images/Cases/NZXT-Lexa.jpg

Reason: Has plenty of airflow with up to 5 fans (http://i30.tinypic.com/16k5bmd.png) (3 x 120mm, 2 x 80mm) in all the right places, allows for tool-less HD and PCI-card installation, has 2 x USB ports and 1 x firewire port on the outside, light in weight, and looks cool.

Not too fussed about fan noise as I rarely use microphones. Just so long as it's unobtrusive. Not sure what the bundled (4 x) fans will be like noise-wise, but may replace them if they're overly noisy.

* DVD-RW: preferably with lightscribe. (Lightscribing allows you to flip the disc and use the same DVD laser to etch your own monochrome artwork onto the back of it.)

I can only seem to see lightscribe DVD-RWs for Samsung, Asus, and Optiarc, but unfortunately not Plextor or Pioneer [which would have been my first choice]. So undecided at the moment.

Total PC cost will be about ~£850 inc. VAT but excluding P&P.

XLR8A
12.02.2008, 09:49 AM
If i was going to build this computer for myself: i'd replace the Zalman CPU fan with a passive fanless heatsync like Scythe Ninja or Thermalright SI-128I, and the Nzxt Lexa case with Antec P182 or the Antec P150 that already includes an ultra silent fans and a decent quality PSU. Reducing fan noise as much as possible is always important for any studio computer, doesn't matters if you're using mics or not.

That's the reason i'd replace the graphics card with any fanless card, even one with 128mb video memory would be more than enough to run a dual 19' display setup at 1280/1024 in 32bit mode. As long as i'm not running heavy games on my studio pc of course.

RAM, i'd go for lower Cas Latency, preferably CL4 or even lower if possible, from a known manufacturer like Corsair or Kingston etc...

Also, i'm not quite sure regarding the quality of the current Intel mobos, i'd go for an Asus equivalent instead... I could be wrong thou, but i see way too many faulty Intel mobos all the time.

DVD-RW, Plextor or Pioneer FTW!

Timo
12.02.2008, 02:00 PM
Hiya,

If i was going to build this computer for myself: i'd replace the Zalman CPU fan with a passive fanless heatsync like Scythe Ninja or Thermalright SI-128I

The Ninja was also on my shortlist. The reviews are excellent. I'd still be tempted to place a large (120mm), low speed fan on it, though.

and the Nzxt Lexa case with Antec P182 or the Antec P150 that already includes an ultra silent fans and a decent quality PSU.

The Antec P180 is also a favourite for audio builds as it has acoustic sound proofing panels, and a heap of other features. I fanced a bit of fun, so chose the Lexa. It has the equivalent air-flow, but might be slightly louder. If the fans are a tad noisy I'll just replace them with whisper quiet ones.

i'd replace the graphics card with any fanless card, even one with 128mb video memory would be more than enough to run a dual 19' display setup at 1280/1024 in 32bit mode. As long as i'm not running heavy games on my studio pc of course.

Definately. There are plenty of passive 256mb nVidia 8600 graphics cards which would have been my first choice if I didn't intend on doing a little gaming or 3D graphics. The 8800GT can be passively cooled if care is taken with regards to airflow within the system.

RAM, i'd go for lower Cas Latency, preferably CL4 or even lower if possible, from a known manufacturer like Corsair or Kingston etc...

Unfortunately that's one of the limitations with the DP35DP motherboard, but yes Corsair and Kingston are the manufacturers to go for. Corsair also uses a helpful "Memory Configurator" gadget on their website which is good to see which RAM modules are compatible.

Also, i'm not quite sure regarding the quality of the current Intel mobos, i'd go for an Asus equivalent instead... I could be wrong thou, but i see way too many faulty Intel mobos all the time.

The DP35DP is raved about on the SoS forums, literally everyone's been using them for many months and there have been no sob stories yet. I think the Asus would be better for overclocking, though, but costs a lot more than the Intel board.

Thnx

Old Vantaa Man
14.02.2008, 06:23 PM
Tims, that is ace. Cheers bud

M

Doc Jones
14.02.2008, 06:49 PM
man, can i rent some time on that supercomputer? :)

Timo
14.02.2008, 07:41 PM
man, can i rent some time on that supercomputer? :)

Just wait until the end of 2008. Nehalem platform (Intel): native oct-core, hyperthreading (two threads per core = 16 threads), integrated DDR3 controller, and the FSB will finally be replaced with a point-to-point system.

The quads of today will have nothing on that. The performance jump will be massive!

I can't wait any longer though. Been without a dedicated music computer for a year now, since my laptop died, hence the build now. For those who can wait until Q2 2009, this new stuff should be really affordable, and also upgradable.
Core 2's coming to the end of its life span.

Timo
29.03.2008, 12:22 AM
Brief update:

Swapped my order around a couple of weeks ago before putting it all through.

Before reading the DP35DP manual I didn't realise that Intel mobos don't allow overclocking at all, I thought they allowed crude OCing, just not as extensively as others, but no. So swapped the mobo choice to a Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, as I was getting a bit paranoid as to the possibility that OCing could mean the difference between it all working at the low latencies, or not, so decided to hedge my bets. And for education. Should easily get over 3GHz.

RAM is Corsair PC6400 @ CAS4, as the new motherboard supports it.

Swapped the Seasonic PSU for a modular Corsair 520W HX as it had excellent reviews and is modular for neatness.

Buying a separate heatsink for the graphics card would have added £30 or so more, so swapped the EVGA graphics card to an MSI of the same version (nVidia 8800GT) as the MSI already has onboard heatpipes and heatsink. It's not passive, but is meant to be whisper quiet due to the heatpipes, HS, and a larger fan keeping it ticking over.

Everything's delivered, apart from the fucking Q9450 CPU which is delayed yet again (the first shipment should've been due on the 18th March). Hopefully it should come sometime next week. Itching to get started!

jasedee
29.03.2008, 11:14 AM
Jesus fucking H Christ!

All that bullshit, why wouldn't you just walk into a Mac store and be done with it? You'd have a better, more stable machine without all the fucking around of choosing parts etc.

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go through all that when you can buy an off the shelf machine that just works.

Just speaking my mind here, no intents of another boring Mac vs PC thread. Sorry for the temporary hijack Timo.

dys4iK
29.03.2008, 11:55 AM
Jesus fucking H Christ!

All that bullshit, why wouldn't you just walk into a Mac store and be done with it? You'd have a better, more stable machine without all the fucking around of choosing parts etc.

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go through all that when you can buy an off the shelf machine that just works.

Just speaking my mind here, no intents of another boring Mac vs PC thread. Sorry for the temporary hijack Timo.

I priced it out, when looking at a mac pro recently.

To get the same horsepower I can pay half the cost if I build my own.

AlexHall74
29.03.2008, 12:48 PM
I priced it out, when looking at a mac pro recently.

To get the same horsepower I can pay half the cost if I build my own.
Half off is relevant indeed!

XLR8A
30.03.2008, 07:42 PM
Jesus fucking H Christ!

All that bullshit, why wouldn't you just walk into a Mac store and be done with it? You'd have a better, more stable machine without all the fucking around of choosing parts etc.

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go through all that when you can buy an off the shelf machine that just works.
I was a hardcore Mac zealot for quite a long time, but after OSX became available for Intel platforms i recovered. I realized that it was all about the MacOS... Today's Apple hardware isn't that special, and you can build yourself a much better workstation from a much higher quality components and for a much lower price. Purchasing an Apple Mac isn't worth it anymore, imho of course.

Just speaking my mind here, no intents of another boring Mac vs PC thread. Sorry for the temporary hijack Timo.Too late lol, the can of worms has been opened.

Timo
30.03.2008, 10:48 PM
Apple's are insanely priced. Not to mention having to learn a whole new OS from scratch, and having to replace my current software for Mac variants.

Just priced one up for a laugh.

2.8GHz quad, 4GB mem, 512MB nVidia 8800GT, 2 x 500GB HD, 1 x DVD-/+RW sets you back £2099 for a Mac Pro.

Same spec for PC has just set me back £850, and that includes the case, OS, CPU cooling, etc.

And if I ever want to upgrade a component, I can do, it's all modular.

2099 -
850
=

Go figure. ;)

More money for studio gear!

Juho L
31.03.2008, 06:17 AM
Some folks at the other forum bough Macs some time ago. Soem sort of a mass movement. Now they all have experienced the joy of broken HD and crashes. Hoho. I'll just stick with iRack and iRan.

IamEvil
31.03.2008, 10:06 AM
looks good , keep us posted on how it measures up.

Im hoping to update my aging xp3200 in the next few months and I'll probably use this thread as a main source of what to look for.

what passive cooled graphics card can happily run 2x monitors @ 1920x1200 ?

also , I found this case.. I want it rackmount as I have a fair bit of unused rack space built into my desk.

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/134806/show_product_overview

is there anything I should look out for when rackmounting a PC?

XLR8A
01.04.2008, 01:50 AM
is there anything I should look out for when rackmounting a PC?Most racks have ridiculously noisy fans, make sure your rack has fans of a standard size so you can replace them.

F5D
02.04.2008, 08:14 PM
When comparing the prices, please remember that the 2008 mac pro's have 2 quad core xeons inside = 8 cores total, not just 1 quad core. The 2.8GHz quad Xeon processors cost almost 1000 euros alone! You can build a very good pc for less than 1000 euros if you choose intel core 2 quad processors and ddr2 memory etc. but if you build a pc using the same parts as the mac pro, the price will be about the same. If you buy a mac, it works when you turn it on. You can't really know whether a custom built 8 core pc will work without problems before you turn it on for the first time.

I just visited Dell's website and calculated a price for a Dell Precision T7400 workstation computer with similar specs as the mac pro, 2x quadcore intel xeon 2.83GHz, 4GB ram etc. The price was about 3700 euros! The mac pro is alot cheaper, even if you decide to order the extra memory from apple! ;)

Apple have always priced their extra memory and hard drives high. You should always order the base model of the mac and purchase the extra ram etc. from elsewhere. That way the prices will be reasonable. I paid 2250 euros for the base mac pro 8-core model, installed my 2x 500GB samsung hard disks from my earlier mac and ordered 8 gigs of memory from OWC US which cost only about 300 euros. The total price for the mac was 2650 euros. A similar spec Dell Precision would cost over 4000 euros according to the Dell website. The mac is very quiet and fast. I can't hear almost any noise from the computer when it is located under my studio desk, a huge improvement from the G5. And the stability of the OSX...

Anyway, apple should sell a cheaper mac which could be upgraded as well. The iMac and mini are not very good in this regard and in case of a failure, you have to bring the whole mac to service. Anyway, in the case of the mac pro, you can switch any parts except the motherboard. I haven't had any hard drive failures/crashes with my macs in 4 years. And hard drives can always break down, it doesn't matter whether you're running a pc or a mac, they use same parts. Always remember to make backups, no matter what machine!

edit. Corrected the Dell prices, the default video card was too expensive.

AlexHall74
02.04.2008, 11:23 PM
Nice comparison F5D, seriously. I've wanted to tinker with a Mac mini for a few years now just to get a feel for it. I had a dual core G4 for a bit but never really got into it, it was too expensive to upgrade it at the time, especially as it was the dawn of the Intel Macs.

The nice thing about hardware (synths, audio interfaces, etc.) is that they are platform independent. Much good music software is too, so if you do change platforms you just switch out your license and off you go.

The bottom line is I want one of everything goddamnit. He who dies with the mose gear wins.

;)

Timo
03.04.2008, 01:57 AM
When comparing the prices, please remember that the 2008 mac pro's have 2 quad core xeons inside = 8 cores total, not just 1 quad core. The 2.8GHz quad Xeon processors cost almost 1000 euros alone! You can build a very good pc for less than 1000 euros if you choose intel core 2 quad processors and ddr2 memory etc. but if you build a pc using the same parts as the mac pro, the price will be about the same. If you buy a mac, it works when you turn it on. You can't really know whether a custom built 8 core pc will work without problems before you turn it on for the first time.

That is true. I'm taking a bit of a gamble with the Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4 mobo as I've recently heard it may suffer from unduly high DPC (Deferred Procedure Call) latencies, so I'm partly relying on the 7-day long distance selling laws to send it right back in case after testing it I experience the same.

However, I believe that Apple have shifted their focus away from Texas Instruments firewire chipsets on various product lines and use Agere now instead? Not sure how this'll stand to affect high-performance audio engineers as TI firewire has always been the benchmark to which all others were judged.

..Actually, doing a quick scan on sites/forums (GearSlutz, RME's site, Apple forums, amongst others) it seems people are having problems with the Agere chipsets and audio. Looks initially like it's mainly with the Santa Rosa macbooks/macbook-pros and iMacs, not sure about the others (desktops).
I guess in the current climate Apples don't necessarily work out of the box. FWIW, the price of the Apple Mac Pro I totted up was for a single 2.8GHz quad xeon, not dual-quad [oct].

I just visited Dell's website and calculated a price for a Dell Precision T7400 workstation computer with similar specs as the mac pro, 2x quadcore intel xeon 2.83GHz, 4GB ram etc. The price was about 3700 euros! The mac pro is alot cheaper, even if you decide to order the extra memory from apple! ;)

Dell PCs only good for p0rno!:-

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mKIOsr9LioY

AlexHall74
03.04.2008, 03:19 AM
Timo wrote:

Dell PCs only good for p0rno!:-

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mKIOsr9LioY

BWAHHH!!! ROFLMAO!

F5D
03.04.2008, 09:54 AM
I agree, it is a shame that apple started using agere firewire chipsets in their laptops. However, the mac pro still have texas instrument chipsets. I checked this asap when I got my new mac. So, it is good news for audio people.

The single quadcore mac pro is pricey if you compare it to computers which you can build yourself. Anyway, it was easy for apple to offer such a computer because they already had the mac pro concept ready, just leave the other processor away. The core 2 quad processors offer a very good value for money. It is a shame that apple's cheapest "normal" computer costs about 1800 euros. They should absolutely sell a computer at the 1000 euro level offering a quad core processor and a case which would allow the user to add hard drives, memory etc. I even hope they would announce a new version of the mini that would be more like the old cube, not so small as mini, to enable using normal size hard drives, not laptop parts. Anyway, I am waiting that apple updates the mini to new specs because the pc of my parents is closing the end of its life and I want them to have a mac. That will make their (and my) lives easier.

Btw, lol to the Dell-video! :D