virus ti Vs sylenth1

[00264167]

having just brought a virus ti im surprised to find alot of the time im prefering the sound of sylenth over the virus.
to me the sylenth oscillators sound fatter and more up front than the virus even with the unison mode high. perhaps i havent had it long enough but at the moment im thinking have i just blown a whole load of cash for not much that i didnt have already with sylenth.

[evoluxion]

having just brought a virus ti im surprised to find alot of the time im prefering the sound of sylenth over the virus.
to me the sylenth oscillators sound fatter and more up front than the virus even with the unison mode high. perhaps i havent had it long enough but at the moment im thinking have i just blown a whole load of cash for not much that i didnt have already with sylenth.

Joke post?

Or one of the many virus bashers on KVR?

[00264167]

no, im serious. ive had the kc aswell but yesterday i was comparing the virus ti presets and sylenth1 presets side by side and there are some sounds that one can do that the other cant but for alot of them i thought sylenth was better and easier to program.

[evoluxion]

no, im serious. ive had the kc aswell but yesterday i was comparing the virus ti presets and sylenth1 presets side by side and there are some sounds that one can do that the other cant but for alot of them i thought sylenth was better and easier to program.

I have sylenth and disagree with you completely.

i bought a virus ti because the vst sound is thin.

[00264167]

I have sylenth and disagree with you completely.

i bought a virus ti because the vst sound is thin.


most softsynths do sound thin but sylenth certainly doesnt imo. i would say bass sounds bigger in the virus than most other hard and softsynths though.

[Monobeat]

I just picked up Sylenth this weekend as well. I have to disagree with you. I will surely continue to program with it, and try to coax the power you are finding with it....

Nothing yet. Another dissappointing VA VST...

In terms of VST, I love the older recreations from Arturia. The sound of those plugins is stable, predictable, and recallable. That's where VSTs shine in my book. I say, leave the heavy programming and synth automation to a good hardware synth. Virus Analog Outs 4 Eva!!!!!!!!

[evoluxion]

In terms of VST's I'm a fan of Gladiator , almost all of REFX stuff and UA and Native Inst.

But the virus has become my electronic sound workhorse. My main melodies come from the virus while I complement with the vst sound.

The converters have a lot to do with the sound of the virus.

If you like the vst more than the virus and happen to have a polar I'll buy it off you ;)

[Summa]

The converters have a lot to do with the sound of the virus.

Especially when using USB or S/P-DIF connection ;)

Wasn't able to spot much difference between Virus Direct-Out or using another Pro-Audio-Device.

[LivePsy]

Summa, I'm not sure what you meant. Which side of the fence are you on the USB to DAW output vs. the analog output jacks?

B

[synthfiend]

This thread reminds me of something I have been wondering about :confused:

In theory if you run the S/P-DIF connection from the Polar into a high end D/A converter, could it possible that the analogue outs on the D/A converter may sound better than the analogue outs on the Polar itself ??

[synthfiend]

This thread reminds me of something I have been wondering about :confused:

In theory if you run the S/P-DIF connection from the Polar into a high end D/A converter, could it possible that the analogue outs on the D/A converter may sound better than the analogue outs on the Polar itself ??

[LivePsy]

The S/PDIF is 44.1KHz or 48KHz not sure of the bits, the analog outputs are supposedly 192KHz 24bit and there's many who claim the Virus sounds better from the Analog outputs.

[Summa]

You shouldn't mistaken the Converter specs. with the internaly used sampling rate and bit depth.

[LivePsy]

The sample rate and bit depth when using Virus Control are exactly the same spec as a VSTi. So there's no reason a TI sounds great but a VSTi sounds thin. Yet I would argue that even in VC mode nothing sounds as good as a TI. If you like that sound then you like that sound. The filter is unique but it could all be emulated as a VSTi. The interesting point for me is that in software anything is possible, but a hardware box seems to have outdone almost everything in pure software.

Does the TI sound better from the 24bit 192KHz analog outputs? Analog not necessarily a good thing because it was digital until the last step. I can't say I have a clear idea and purity of sound surely is not important compared to the character of the sound. The TI can have obvious aliasing but I really don't care - how many times have we seen posts from experts who check the aliasing first and then won't touch anything which doesn't pass that test? They're missing out on a lot of character...

B

[Summa]

I wouldn't be that hard on the TI, one can get some nice good sounding stuff out of the synth when using the grain tables ;)
Anyway I didn't want to start a discussion about synths quality, even so I know quite some VSTis I'd like to have in hardware. It's rather that the differences between current pro audio DACs are that subtle, that even slight level differences can have a greater influence on the impression.

[Monobeat]

Well put Summa. I feel those words as being nicely chosen ;)

[LivePsy]

the differences between current pro audio DACs are that subtle, that even slight level differences can have a greater influence on the impression.

Are the DACs in hardware digital synths that good? I'd hazard a guess that the DAC itself is OK, but the post DAC analog stage to the output jack is weak - most sound and look from sampling to be a bit high passed. Low frequency waveforms don't have the right shape. And if you look inside the box, there's no audiophile grade shielding and cabling for the critical analog output path.

The question relevant to TI vs VSTi is whether the signal sent through USB to the DAW is lower quality to that sent to the 24bit/192KHz DACs on the TI. If the TI is 24/192 internally throughout, then its a shame to degrade the output by stuffing it into USB Audio.

B

[Summa]

Are the DACs in hardware digital synths that good? I'd hazard a guess that the DAC itself is OK, but the post DAC analog stage to the output jack is weak - most sound and look from sampling to be a bit high passed. Low frequency waveforms don't have the right shape.

What synths are you refering to? Lowcuts are typical for Audio-DACs, it's typically not possible to send send DC-Signals trough them. When it comes to the level, if the SNR and bandwidth is fine, I don't mind if the output signal isn't that hot.

And if you look inside the box, there's no audiophile grade shielding and cabling for the critical analog output path.

Well, major problems would be audiable, noise and interference wise.

The question relevant to TI vs VSTi is whether the signal sent through USB to the DAW is lower quality to that sent to the 24bit/192KHz DACs on the TI. If the TI is 24/192 internally throughout, then its a shame to degrade the output by stuffing it into USB Audio.

It's surely not 192khz, otherwise this would be an option S/P-DIF wise. Wouldn't make much sense anyway, unless one is making music for bats, cats or dogs afaik only the filter calculation would benefit from a sampling rate above 48khz.

[LivePsy]

What synths are you refering to? Lowcuts are typical for Audio-DACs, it's typically not possible to send send DC-Signals trough them. When it comes to the level, if the SNR and bandwidth is fine, I don't mind if the output signal isn't that hot.

I am referring to every digital synth I've owned, about 8 all up. Low cut to reject DC is one thing, but I think it affects the clearly audible low freqeuncies say around 60Hz or higher. Let's just keep it to the TI, it definitely does this. BTW when I suggested the analog stage was weak, I meant it in the sense that it is the weakest quality link, not that the output level was low.

Well, major problems would be audiable, noise and interference wise.
You previously posted that subtle differences in pro audio DACs have audible effects: if synth manufacturers are not treating the post DAC analog stage like pro audio, then its no wonder. Its irrelevant to me (its making its own sounds not reproducing anything) but I thought it was reinforcing your point of view.

It's surely not 192khz, otherwise this would be an option S/P-DIF wise. Wouldn't make much sense anyway, unless one is making music for bats, cats or dogs afaik only the filter calculation would benefit from a sampling rate above 48khz.

Higher than 48KHz would also help in calculating the waveforms - sharp edges and lower aliasing.

I thought we were pretty much in agreement, so I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to disagree with me here.

B

[Summa]

To me a discussion is not about reaching agreements but to share informations, I'll see to answer the rest later this day.

[Monobeat]

You guys need a hug.

[Summa]

I am referring to every digital synth I've owned, about 8 all up. Low cut to reject DC is one thing, but I think it affects the clearly audible low freqeuncies say around 60Hz or higher.

This might be intentionally to make sure the user has less problems fitting the synth into the mix and probably has nothing to do with DAC or the corresponding amp.

Let's just keep it to the TI, it definitely does this.

I'm a bit afraid to discussion all the weaknesses of the Virus here, they'll probably throw me out of this forum ;) I'd guess this is a engine generated effect, you tested the S/P-DIF and USB Output for comparison?

BTW when I suggested the analog stage was weak, I meant it in the sense that it is the weakest quality link, not that the output level was low.

Please keep in mind that english isn't my native language, when it comes to technical terms I may pick the wrong expressions. I'm very sorry if this cause missunderstandings or hurts your feelings.

You previously posted that subtle differences in pro audio DACs have audible effects:

Nope, I posted that the differences between the DACs are that subtile, that slight level differences would have an higher impact on the character of the output.

if synth manufacturers are not treating the post DAC analog stage like pro audio, then its no wonder. Its irrelevant to me (its making its own sounds not reproducing anything) but I thought it was reinforcing your point of view.

Well, if its a shielding and cabling problem you'd probably hear hum or clock emissions, but this wouldn't have that much influence on the character of the synth.

Higher than 48KHz would also help in calculating the waveforms - sharp edges and lower aliasing.

I think to remember that the bandlimiting filter needs about 5 or 6khz where it tends to dampen the higher harmonics, so with 48khz (48-5=42/2 (f/2 nyquist) = 21Khz) Oscillator and bandwith wise you'd be on the save side. When it comes to nonlinear stuff like FM or waveshaping (like filter saturation), I've been told that higher sampling rates or oversampling can be extremely helpfull to shift the artefacts above the audiable range. Still, 192khz would be pretty much an overkill, but I'm no synth developer myself, it's just a few explanaitions I got when talking/mailing to developers I worked with.

You can find some very informational papers regarding that topic here:

http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/~stilti/papers/Welcome.html



...Summa

[tricky]

Hi i downloaded the Sylenth1 demo just to see what all the is fuss about, and i must admit this is a fairly hefty vst the best i've heard in the way of being virus ti like, im impressed for the little amount it cost's and would even consider purchasing it, but to honest it aint as good as my virus ti desktop, but for anybody on a budget it is surely a worthwhile investment.

[LivePsy]

We're all good Summa. I thought you were going to criticise without contributing anything. Must have thought I was on the MPC forums. Back to the discussion ... Yikes, where do I even start to quote the quoted quotes? Hope these makes sense. I'm just quoting your reply and keeping this as short as I can :)

This might be intentionally to make sure the user has less problems fitting the synth into the mix and probably has nothing to do with DAC or the corresponding amp

I'd guess this is a engine generated effect, you tested the S/P-DIF and USB Output for comparison?


Actually, I don't see any reason why you can't have DC from digital or analog outputs if there's no DC decoupling in the analog output stage. I assume this is a discreet stage output of the DAC chip but that could be my ignorance.

I've sampled the S/PDIF into several sampling workstations, direct optical. Its always the same result AND not just the TI. The waveform of low bass notes is obviously low cut visually. You really should be able to have a perfect 20Hz saw wave coming out of the TI if you really want one.

Perhaps all my sampling workstations are all at fault here?

Well, if its a shielding and cabling problem you'd probably hear hum or clock emissions, but this wouldn't have that much influence on the character of the synth.

Yes, hum and clock noise are NOT synth character :) And there's certainly neither coming out of the TI

I posted that the differences between the DACs are that subtile, that slight level differences would have an higher impact on the character of the output.

I'm intrigued by this idea but I just don't understand it. The only slight differences I can imagine would be similar to eq. And you might be able to compensate for that with eq in the DAW. Can you give an example (non TI example is fine)

Cheers,
BF

[Summa]

Actually, I don't see any reason why you can't have DC from digital or analog outputs if there's no DC decoupling in the analog output stage. I assume this is a discreet stage output of the DAC chip but that could be my ignorance.

Since at least when it comes to analog outs this could kill your speakers, the inductors will overheat when exposed to a constant current. When it comes to the mix, the DC-Offset is shifting the waveforms symmetry above or below the X-Axis and thus creating level without loudness.

I've sampled the S/PDIF into several sampling workstations, direct optical. Its always the same result AND not just the TI. The waveform of low bass notes is obviously low cut visually. You really should be able to have a perfect 20Hz saw wave coming out of the TI if you really want one.

If the S/P-DIF signals shows the same problems it's created by the synths engine/software and no DAC problem.
As mentioned in my last posting, mixing and integration can be easier and needs less EQing when the synth already outputs a processed sound with amplified mid-frequencies by dampening low and high frequencies or even (as some synths seems to do) cutting bandwith to conserve some processing power. Most ppl. seem to prefere that type of sound even so the synth tends to lose quite a bit of its flexibility that's why I don't have exactly a crush for that type of synths and a flexible synth engine allows to cut the unneeded frequencies at will.
Anyway when it comes to a mathematical perfect saw, if this is what you're looking for, even none of my analog synths create one and when I played arround with different saw samples the perfect ones don't sound very well.
Still, when it comes to the Virus and Bass sounds with lots of low end, it takes quite a bit effort to create them.

Perhaps all my sampling workstations are all at fault here?

Don't think so, but I could be wrong, since I mainly use my Computer for sampling/recording sounds.


I posted that the differences between the DACs are that subtile, that slight level differences would have an higher impact on the character of the output.


I'm intrigued by this idea but I just don't understand it. The only slight differences I can imagine would be similar to eq. And you might be able to compensate for that with eq in the DAW. Can you give an example (non TI example is fine)


Well it is similar to an EQ, it's an effect widely known as Fletcher Munson Curves, that explains how different levels influence the frequency perception.

Here a link to the revised version of the curve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

So when comparing DACs one have to make sure the Level is identical and testing double blind, since ppl. often tend to hear what they expect to hear.

...Summa

[Dusk]

Interesting discussion. Long term lurker, first time poster, bought a Virus TI desktop around 6 months ago.

I was going to write a long essay on the journey Ive had with the synth, oscillating (get it) between thinking "this is no better than my VSTs" and "this is in a different league to my VSTs"...but Ill keep it short! IMO with good convertors on your system, VSTS such as Sylenth are pretty much identical to the Virus in terms of sound quality. So what IS the difference?

In short;

1) no other synth can generate such an incrediably wide range of sounds (the new oscillator modes took this thing to an unprecedented level)
2) no other synth does each to a generally excellent quality
3) no other synth uses hardware DSP controlled through the most beautifully designed and intuitive plug in interface
4) no other synth features on board FX of this quality
5) no other synth does all this multitimbrally across 16 parts.

That is all.

[chromatic]

1) no other synth can generate such an incrediably wide range of sounds (the new oscillator modes took this thing to an unprecedented level)
2) no other synth does each to a generally excellent quality
3) no other synth uses hardware DSP controlled through the most beautifully designed and intuitive plug in interface
4) no other synth features on board FX of this quality
5) no other synth does all this multitimbrally across 16 parts.

That is all.

Hello ^_-

1) it certainly can have a wide range of sounds but for the price of a Virus Ti you can buy MANY soft synth who use many different type of synthesis and each will do his own time quite well...
Still good point for the virus is being able to use all those type of sound with always the same interface and hardware controler...

2) maybe, maybe not...it depend on each person opinion

3) ok with that ^_-

4) YES but in exchange you cant use individual effect plugins for each part... by using virus ti, you have all the 16 parts assigned directly to only ONE track of your sequencer... so if you want to use external effect plugins it will affect all track of the virus... wich off course is not usable...
By using softsynth, each instance use a different track on your sequencer and so you can use any HIGH QUALITY plugins you want for each... and i bet many Audio unit or vst plug ins revern or others sound better than virus one...

5) true... but what if you need 17 part ? :p
you can open as many Sylenth instance as you want... 32 if you want....

6) dont forget the latency you get when playing the virus Ti inside your sequencer, the fact that all the 16 part are not available as "one per track" in your sequencer is a problem too, not being able to freeze Virus ti track or to Bounce it faster than real time is a problem.

I love the virus, but its very subjective and i dont understand why a soft synth would never be capable of doing same as a virus. After all a virus is same as a soft synth, dsp and program... then yes like peoples sade, converted and other things play a part in final quality... wich is maybe why the virus sound slightly better than sylenth... then again.... the virus is 20 times more expensive ... ( at least where iam)

so for the price of a virus Ti, it would be possible to buy Sylenth+ very good plugins (reverb, delay etc) + very good soundcard with good converter.... and then...

everything is possible, Virus is top of my list, but Sylenth is very surprising...

[Crossfire]

4) YES but in exchange you cant use individual effect plugins for each part... by using virus ti, you have all the 16 parts assigned directly to only ONE track of your sequencer... so if you want to use external effect plugins it will affect all track of the virus... wich off course is not usable...
By using softsynth, each instance use a different track on your sequencer and so you can use any HIGH QUALITY plugins you want for each... and i bet many Audio unit or vst plug ins revern or others sound better than virus one...

5) true... but what if you need 17 part ? :p
you can open as many Sylenth instance as you want... 32 if you want....





All 16 parts of the Virus don't have to be run through only ONE track of the sequencer. Firstly you can use the 3 separate USB outs and then the 3 audio outputs as well all of which can then be separately processed with your software FX.

Rendering is bit annoying compared to software but the TI is as 'integrated' as it gets for an external hardware synth.

Can your CPU handle 32 instances of Sylenth?

[synthfiend]

i guess it comes down to personal preference in the end..

i can say though, after using softsynths for while on a MBP + controller, i do prefer using my Polar. For me it is the immediacy as a performance instrument that makes it soo good....much nicer than having your head stuck in a computer:p

[chromatic]

I think Mac Pro can run 32 instance of sylenth as its supposed to be light on cpu usage....
But Hey, dont get me wrong :D VIRUS IS VIRUS...
iam not really comparing... i know, having a Virus on the desk is special lol
i think the virus have something "Magical".... even compared to Virus plugin for pro tools or something, having the virus harware on the table is different... its like touching directly the sound and... that sound is so good and rich....

there must be something psychological about it, like soft synth is just some programe coming from a cd or worst from internet connection directly to your computer.... compared to virus Physicly on your desk...
i dont know lol something is special...:cool:

[teethofgold]

synthfiend... that's correct... except that it's important to know what is the bit depth of the Polar S/P-DIF output.

[///OSS]

There are some VSTi's that sound more present and in your face than the virus...an example would be FAW circle... virus doesnt cut thru as great as FAW...problem is that FAW is nowhere near as intense as the virus is...But either way I think there's a handfull of deep VSTi's that shine and work just fine... BUT!

a lot of the judgement pertaining to the sound quality of these VSTis has to be based on a system that has great D/A converters... Right now im on a 828MKIII and I like the outs on it, it really makes for a good sound coming out of the setup. It came with latest gen, clock and AD/DA tech so it really does a nice job at showing me the VSTis in a good light.

if your runing old AD/DAs or really innexpensive units and your pitting the software sound vs the Access software sound, as it IS software anyways. then your judging things incorrectly...period.

the TI sounds great, but so does FAW Circle, its even more present so that proves to me that its all about how good the algorithm is to begin with anyways.

[teethofgold]

agreed about the algorithm. I believe the discussion was regarding using the same synth, but figuring out which output to use... and that's where bit depth comes in.

I personally find the difference between 24 and 16 bit audio to be quite noticeable.

[dent]

"1) it certainly can have a wide range of sounds but for the price of a Virus Ti you can buy MANY soft synth who use many different type of synthesis and each will do his own time quite well...
Still good point for the virus is being able to use all those type of sound with always the same interface and hardware controler..."

I think the thing is, you can probably generate most of the sounds you can obtain from any one of those soft synths in a Virus. Sure, there are some things that I wish the Virus could do, but I am surprised by its capabilities every time I sit down to design a sound.

Frankly, if the Virus can't do it, it probably can only be done by another hardware synth. Go grab a decent second-hand analogue synth and you will probably get the 'other sounds' you need.

"4) YES but in exchange you cant use individual effect plugins for each part... by using virus ti, you have all the 16 parts assigned directly to only ONE track of your sequencer... so if you want to use external effect plugins it will affect all track of the virus... wich off course is not usable...
By using softsynth, each instance use a different track on your sequencer and so you can use any HIGH QUALITY plugins you want for each... and i bet many Audio unit or vst plug ins revern or others sound better than virus one..."

Not strictly true. There is the ability to route audio down one of three USB *stereo* channels with TI. You can then treat these channels individually in your DAW... Okay okay, you can't really do much with three audio channels. But, you *can* divide the six channels into mono signals to get six channels in total. I am unsure on if you can also pipe parts down the standard audio outs in addition to this, but I believe that is possible and would increase your available outputs.

Besides, maybe we might get a few more audio ports with future OS updates. Unlikely, because USB is only so fast... But, you never know. As you agreed the onboard effects are pretty nice anyway. Each part can have any of these effects applied individually. It seems that they may be able to extend the types of effects with OS upgrades! Who knows maybe one day we will be able to pipe sound from the TI's audio interface into those effects too...

"5) true... but what if you need 17 part ? :p
you can open as many Sylenth instance as you want... 32 if you want.... "

You must have a pretty awesome laptop to run 32 instances of Sylenth? :)

"6) dont forget the latency you get when playing the virus Ti inside your sequencer, the fact that all the 16 part are not available as "one per track" in your sequencer is a problem too, not being able to freeze Virus ti track or to Bounce it faster than real time is a problem."

Sure, you may have latency, but only when you are jamming with a keyboard or something. Besides, you can put the virus into "LIVE" mode for a particular part, and it will compensate for any latency. Otherwise, there isn't any latency during playback - everything stays in sync. At least thats what I have noticed with my Virus TI desktop when it is the audio interface also...

And in terms of bouncing tracks... What's the big deal with that? Think about all the analogue hardware people who have to do that anyway. While you are at it, think about all those people who have slow laptops like me who can't run all those HIGH QUALITY CPU hogging software plugins.

"I love the virus, but its very subjective and i dont understand why a soft synth would never be capable of doing same as a virus. After all a virus is same as a soft synth, dsp and program... then yes like peoples sade, converted and other things play a part in final quality... wich is maybe why the virus sound slightly better than sylenth... then again.... the virus is 20 times more expensive ... ( at least where iam)"

Perhaps, but I can also take my Virus out of my laptop, hook it up to a drum machine, midi sequencer, keyboard, and jam on it live. Can you do that with your VST's/AU's?

Alternatively, I can plug my Virus into my laptop and instantly, I have a fairly good sounding sound card which can play 16 parts of my song with virtually no CPU usage required. That was the 'killer feature' for me mate!

"so for the price of a virus Ti, it would be possible to buy Sylenth+ very good plugins (reverb, delay etc) + very good soundcard with good converter.... and then... everything is possible, Virus is top of my list, but Sylenth is very surprising..."

Yeah, not denying that its surprising how good some software sounds. The routing capabilities are probably superior too. But, the virus is extremely capable of covering most, if not all, of what software can produce sonically. Being able to tweak the hardware instead of fiddling with controller maps, or even worse, mouse and keyboard, takes sound design to another level. Im not sure if it was worth every penny I paid, but I am pretty sure that I wouldn't have the knowledge of creating sounds like I do now.

Each to their own, but I couldn't be happier with where I am going now that I have some hardware, and that hardware is a Virus.