The musicians are almost extinct

[waxahachie]

Well, I can see in youtube the decadence of the music and zero creativity and originality, mostly of the people don't play keyboards or don't even use one, looks like the artists now are the engineers and designers because sad to say almost all the people expend thousands and thousands of Dollars on music equipment just for play with them like toys with zero music knowledge, you can see the new fashion called "jam", the guys just switch on sequencers and arppregiators twist a little few knobs and they call that music, just patetic.
I believe the sequencers and the arppregiators are tools for help to play not a way to play music.

[synthfiend]

I can see where you are coming from.
I believe there is still a lot of musicality behind the "better" electronica eg. Booka Shade, Sasha etc....

[Innovine]

the quality stuff is still out there, what were you expecting to get for free on youtube?

[waxahachie]

I can see where you are coming from.
I believe there is still a lot of musicality behind the "better" electronica eg. Booka Shade, Sasha etc....
Sasha is a DJ not a musician, the rest I dont know them.

[IamEvil]

why does this bother you ?

how would you feel if you bought a nice car and some smug rally driver started giving you grief because you can't drive it profesionally ?

it isn't your money, it's theirs and they can spend it on whatever they want.

[Monobeat]

I was having a discussion last night after DJing for a New Years party. A man came up to me and asked if DJs were musicians. I spoke for myself because I am a musician. Although my friend who had played before me doesn't play any other instruments, he spoke for himself and said, no I am not a musician. There are many different people in the world.

That is all.

[waxahachie]

why does this bother you ?

how would you feel if you bought a nice car and some smug rally driver started giving you grief because you can't drive it profesionally ?

it isn't your money, it's theirs and they can spend it on whatever they want.

Sure, you can spend your money in whatever you want like a nice car and big ass sport but if you try to drive this car like a rally driver on professional way like you said you will have a bad ending, you can buy it but you will dont drive this car like a crazy mother $%^&^ or you get a ticket in every corner and go to the jail for sure that without mention if you kill somebody on the crazy way. The big diference is one keyboard is not a "weapon" like a car is in literal terms, that car you are talking about if for show what you have. Only if you keyboard is for show you are right. With the keyboard only looks ridiculus only making noises, just for fun is ok but where is the music?
Look it this... some friend come home and you show proud you car for sure they undestand you can not drive it and maybe you dont know but the big ass sport cars they come with a limitator circuit built in, so maybe you have your Ferrari or Porsche but they are limited on power, that is law.
Anyways what happens when you show your music production studio to you friends?
you just turn knobs? or they are expencting to hear some played for you?
Is too much difference between I have something and I know use it, I saw guys make amazing thing with a $200 Casio, money can not buy talent or skills my friend. Money open the door for learn and if you have money and you dont learn is because you are lazy if is your case dont complain, just learn, is up to you, the embarrazment is yours.

[IamEvil]

from what I can decypher with your wall of broken text..

You think that it is somehow your right to be able to own these electronic instruments because you've earned the right to use them by learning how to use them correctly, yet other people without your experience shouldn't really be allowed to have them and post videos of them on youtube because you think they are talentless ?

why don't you show the world what amazing talents you have by posting your music ?

I'm no "Pro" but I like synths , I've worked my arse off this last year to pay for my equipment and everything I do know about synths and music has been self taught. I have also posted talentless demos on youtube where I judt twiddle knobs to show what sounds to expect from the equipment should anyone else wish to buy one.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KljtT_VhXAY&feature=channel_page

So who are you again to tell me and others like me what I should and shouldn't be allowed to buy ?

Why don't you worry about your own music rather than bleeting on an internet forum about these "talentless" knob twiddling individuals with better equipment than you?

[Innovine]

It's perfectly ok to like synths, and to like twisting knobs and watching blinking lights and learning about making noises, without ever being required to make music... This is following inspiration wherever it may lead. When did making music become something we must do? The very thought makes me feel stressed.

Also, every person buying a synth is helping manufacturers stay in business. If only talented musicians were allowed have gear, there'd be none. So stop demanding that everyone be as good as you, please.

[waxahachie]

I never try to offend dude, about upload videos is very nice, I thought many times, especially exercises show tips and tricks for improve better performance but I don't have video camera even I dont have piano any more I lost my Kaway years ago in my past divorce, actually im a worker with bad pay, no options of venefits. About music (thing I love) I was playing for the past two and half years with a cheap Yamaha from Walmart, now all i have is one Virus Classic, un M-Audio board and the Yamaha, yo can see I dont have much to show, just today I finished one piano patch for be used with the Virus and im so happy for it.
I created this thread trying to motivate to the people who dont read music or play to advance foward because im not more that you and you are not more than me but one thing is for sure, if you can feed youself you can play piano.

[Monobeat]

I feel bad about owning synthesizers now.

[spindlenine]

I think it goes without saying that the proliferation of computer-based music tools and loop-based platforms has seriously lowered the barrier to entry for regular old people (like me) to make "music." On the whole, I think this is a Good Thing (TM), but it does mean that there will be a lot more people out there who are able to record unfathomable noise at the same fidelity that professional musicians enjoy and claim that it is music.

But I'm certainly not judging; I have loads of pro-audio equipment I have collected over the years, and I have never even finished writing a single song. But after a long day at the office, I love coming home and twiddling knobs and making sounds. I may not be a fabulous musician or composer but I do know enough about synthesizers to enjoy what they let me do with sound, and I know enough about the piano to play melodies and tunes that allow me to enjoy the instruments.

Anecdotally, I actually got my TI because I always lose inspiration when the technology starts getting in the way of the music-making process (we've all been there...). The TI seems to integrate so seamlessly, which is awesome. I recently upgraded to Logic Express 8 as well, which has a much better UI than older versions, so I hope to find it less frustrating. This is sort of my "final stab" at making music a bit more serious of a hobby, so I'm hoping the tools have matured sufficiently to let me finally do that.

Just my $0.02.

- max

[Khazul]

Sasha is a DJ not a musician, the rest I dont know them.

Well hes a DJ and producer. I have no idea what his musical skills are like, however as a producer he does work with other accomplished musicians and writers.

[teethofgold]

re: musician, dj, producer

musician - someone who plays a musical instrument (no creativity needed, just skill to play the song... think orchestra)

dj - someone who plays back pre-recorded music

producer - someone who coordinates musicians (or musical elements) to "produce" music

that's my definition... and these days a lot of people are a mix of the three... not to mention that there are composers, songwriters etc... but they don't really apply to electronic music as much.

regarding people jamming with arpeggiators and such... I tend to think of electronic dance music as modern folk music... which I see as music made by the people who enjoy it... so if people are happy playing (and enjoying) other people's music, then who cares?

regardless... I've only seen one person truly play techno music live on a keyboard... it was the dude from rabbit in the moon. he was hitting a pad to trigger a kick drum with one hand while playing keyboard riffs with the other... and it was awesome!

[Ceri JC]

re: musician, dj, producer

musician - someone who plays a musical instrument (no creativity needed, just skill to play the song... think orchestra)

dj - someone who plays back pre-recorded music

producer - someone who coordinates musicians (or musical elements) to "produce" music

that's my definition... and these days a lot of people are a mix of the three... not to mention that there are composers, songwriters etc... but they don't really apply to electronic music as much.


Indeed, what would you say Squarepusher is when he alternating between playing his bass guitar and controlling a drum machine in time to someone else's record which he is playing on a turntable?

Out of interest, where would you put turntabilists in the definition; there are some, particularly those in groups who make what are undeniably musically speaking, whole new (albeit sample based) tracks where you would really struggle to recognise the source of a single sample; I'm talking about tracks where nothing more than single notes/drum hits are used. One person scratching a HH and another doing a kick drum to provide the drums, someone else playing and constantly re-pitching a single bass note to provide the bassline etc. Accurately repitching, re-ordering, and gating and trimming samples in real times on a turntable is certainly more "musical" in terms of playing an instrument (and requires more skill to do it well) than doing it in a step sequencer on a synth.

On a related note, the main reason I'm currently re-learning to play the violin is to finally record a version of a track I wrote a few years back (for 3 synthetic violin parts) on 'proper' electric violins, exactly as I want it. Would I bother if I had free access to 3 professional violinists I could communicate with effectively enough to get it exactly as I wanted? Probably not; I enjoy the 'production' side more and am better at it. Criticising people for this is akin to saying an architect is in some way inferior to a builder because the latter actually makes the building. I'd say they both play their part.

[Juho L]

From my experience the lack of musicianship in most cases manifests itself in a form of copying. A lack of musical skill, or in some cases talent, is not actually an obstacle; It's more like a drag on the process. This is how we get taste and smell free electronic music that you forget right after you have heard it. It's kinda shame that most electronic music producers have never actually bothered to study even simple basics of music theory. Their whole thing is an akward game of trial and error. Although a music theory is good slave but, like many other things, extremely lousy master. Even simple knowledge of music theory improves the composing capabilities greatly making finding "the own sound" a hell lot of easier.

Although there have been cases in which the lack of musicianship has created something really wacky. "I have no idea what I'm doing" can sometimes turn out to be something insanely innovative that "a traditional" musician would have hard time to come up with. It's usually very experimental, but mostly fun!

What I think the most common "mistake" done by electronic music producers is that they don't know the capabilities of their synths. They lack the interest in experimenting with sound design and synthesis. It's mostly that super saw crap. What makes electronic music in somewhat unique is that the possibilities in sounds and soundscaping is immense! Take advantage of it, damn it!

What comes to jamming... Well, it's like anything else in the world: If you like it and you don't harm anyone doing it, then why the hell not. Go ahead.

[Ceri JC]

What I think the most common "mistake" done by electronic music producers is that they don't know the capabilities of their synths. They lack the interest in experimenting with sound design and synthesis. It's mostly that super saw crap. What makes electronic music in somewhat unique is that the possibilities in sounds and soundscaping is immense! Take advantage of it, damn it!


Oh yes. It's amazing how many people can't do the basics of synthesis correctly. They tweak some patches in absynth/massive and it sounds good, but the don't really understand what they've done. Harmless enough in itself, but it's annoying when they then start making ill-informed comments about synth x's capabilities because they weren't able to get something great out of it in 5 minutes (and of course, someone else then reads this and takes it as gospel). I made an ambient track a few years back in Reason 1.0 that used nothing other than one instance of the (admittedly rather basic) 'Subtractor' synth and the standard (again v. basic) Reason FX units. I didn't reveal how I'd made the track. One individual who only days earlier had been saying how rubbish Subtractor was and how all Reason tracks sounded alike and were too thin, liked it and confidently said that he "could tell" the track was made with a few Absynth patches* and a real sample of someone snoring. :D

*so by definition, couldn't have been done in Reason.

[teethofgold]

re:ceri

squarepusher is an excellent example... though he is mostly a musician and producer. I didn't notice him using a turntable when I saw him live.

turntablists are also good examples of musicians as they require specific skills in real-time to play their music. I saw a video where dj swamp played "little bunny foo foo" using a record with a sine tone. he used the pitch slider on the turntable and lifted the needle up and down on the record.

re:juho

I agree that people making electronic music should learn the basics of music theory... especially the basics of chord progression. they should also...

read the "yamaha sound reinforcement handbook" - this is the best book on the basics of sound and electricity that I have seen

read the nord modular users guide - the manual for the original nord modular has excellent sections on the basics of synthesis and how to make the different synth components work together. the knowledge applies to any synth, not just the nord.

I personally never use preset synth sounds. I will use some sound effects library samples... and I use the akoustik piano plug-in... but I am huge into designing my own sounds from scratch. I'm certainly not the best sound designer... and some of the sounds may not be that great... but the good sounds that I make myself make me feel like a proud daddy!

[waxahachie]

re: musician, dj, producer

musician - someone who plays a musical instrument (no creativity needed, just skill to play the song... think orchestra)

dj - someone who plays back pre-recorded music

producer - someone who coordinates musicians (or musical elements) to "produce" music

that's my definition... and these days a lot of people are a mix of the three... not to mention that there are composers, songwriters etc... but they don't really apply to electronic music as much.

regarding people jamming with arpeggiators and such... I tend to think of electronic dance music as modern folk music... which I see as music made by the people who enjoy it... so if people are happy playing (and enjoying) other people's music, then who cares?

regardless... I've only seen one person truly play techno music live on a keyboard... it was the dude from rabbit in the moon. he was hitting a pad to trigger a kick drum with one hand while playing keyboard riffs with the other... and it was awesome!

Agree with your definition.

Disagree about "electronic dance music as modern folk music".

Disagree about only one person play electronic music, the electronic/techno/dance belongs to late 70's until today actually still very popular and loved especially in Europe.

Disagree about players the list of professional musicians is endless like: Giorgio Moroder, Gino Soccio, Bobbie Orlando, Emerson and Lake and Palmer, Yazoo, Erasure, Labouche, New Order, Pet Shop Boys, Herbie Hancok, Tomas Dolby, Stevie Wonder, Jean Michell Jarre, etc, etc, etc endless number of real players on the 70's, 80's and 90's, even today.
What happens is the technologie and factories can produce today electronics to low cost and is accesible to too much people even a $3000 synthesizer still accessible comparated with the early electronic music age and credit cards helps too.
I love electronic music like I love Classic music, Jazz, Rock, Salsa Latino even Rock like Mettalica or Rolling Stones, the music is good in every field excempt reggaeton of course. (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu7VE52RJ5_AA0a9XNyoA/SIG=15hr2bml1/EXP=1231435972/**http%3a//search.yahoo.com/search%3fei=UTF-8%26fr=yfp-t-501%26p=reggaeton%26SpellState=n-2298466127_q-D2R2S4KqyGd8wg9ZUlOWAwAAAA%2540%2540%26fr2=sp-qrw-corr-top)

[Juho L]

Yay! Props for mentioning ELP there!

Saying that electronic music is modern folk music is a crime. When electronic is folk music then rock is definetly classical music. Hoho.

I think people always put their hands on shit when starting to evaluate musicians by the genre or methods of making music. I think the combination of skill and creativity is the thing that makes a musician good or bad. And of course it's very difficult to compare a technically skilled but non-creative player, such as slave trained classical pianist, to a creative but technically inferior bub.

When you think of it, why to rank musicians or genres in the first place? A good music is good music regardless of the musician(s) behind it. It's really simple thing actually.

The most debatable issue actually is what is musicianship. Are the sequencer jammers musicians? Does banging two coconut shells together make one a musician or just a plain horse rider? Well, to be frank, one shouldn't give a shit - It makes life a bit easier. Hoho. When person A says that person B is definetly a musician, well maybe the person B is then. A musician in a terms of profession? Most likely not. But in a general meaning? Definetly yes.

[waxahachie]

What I believe is we have two kind of people, the keyboard players and the keyboard collectors both love keyboards but the player know about music language and the collector or DJ twist knobs (even some DJ's know music).

The answers here speak for each one how much knowledge have the people about music notation.

And the big question : who cares? the answer is "you" because you are only one steep to be a real composer learning music and writing your creations like a professional and speak same language over the planet without need to memorize thousand of visual plays.

Im not your daddy and im not offending im only trying to motivate you guys.

[teethofgold]

when I mentioned rabbit in the moon I meant "one person playing techno music live without sequencing". I'm sure others have done it... but I haven't seen it. discussion of the 70's is not relevant here. 80's electronic music was heavily sequenced (new order? erasure). 90's was the blossoming of electronic dance music... and now here we are... in a world where I have a sample sequencing program on my iphone.

regardless... I heartily defend my definition of electronic music as modern folk music... as not all electronic music is folk music... but some folk music is electronic... and it is folk by definition... not by style. if you're hung up on cliches of irish ditties and bob dylan you are thinking in terms of style. folk music is the music of a culture that they people play for and by themselves. if a large number of people are doing that with electronic music... is it not folk? shoot... what about hip hop? how long before electronic music parties become a "tradition"?

rock music is going to be classical in 200 years... no? ever heard the term "classic rock"? how do you think black sabbath would have felt about that term back in 75?

how about the term "classic rave"? I'm the one and only dominator!

[waxahachie]

You can believe in martians if you want, call you mama for feed you too, is up to you.
Good luck in your music composition.

[Juho L]

Sure, you can spend your money in whatever you want like a nice car and big ass sport but if you try to drive this car like a rally driver on professional way like you said you will have a bad ending, you can buy it but you will dont drive this car like a crazy mother $%^&^ or you get a ticket in every corner and go to the jail for sure that without mention if you kill somebody on the crazy way. The big diference is one keyboard is not a "weapon" like a car is in literal terms, that car you are talking about if for show what you have. Only if you keyboard is for show you are right. With the keyboard only looks ridiculus only making noises, just for fun is ok but where is the music?

Your analogy is rather crippled there. I'd approach the situation from sports. Spending 600 euros on hockey equipment doesn't make you a hockey player and give you that hockey ass ladies drool after. Hoho. Same goes with music gear, although playing around with synths is much more fun than hanging around in a full hockey gear. But like you later mentioned:

I created this thread trying to motivate to the people who dont read music or play to advance foward because im not more that you and you are not more than me but one thing is for sure, if you can feed youself you can play piano.

And this is indeed a really good point! It's actually quite a short step from just playing around to actually making music with ease. Hell, even couple piano/keyboard lessons with a good teacher wouldn't hurt. One month of intensive piano lessons is only around 80 euros or even less and you'll learn a lot (if the teacher is good, that is), not only in playing but also in music theory. So insted of thinking getting another FX unit or something other crap, invest the money in playing lessons. I guarantee that you won't regret it!

Is too much difference between I have something and I know use it, I saw guys make amazing thing with a $200 Casio, money can not buy talent or skills my friend.

One of the most funniest experiences was when I saw one pal to play Super Mario theme with the coin FX and all on a wintage 80's Casio home keyboard. It was awesome! Hoho. Great stuff indeed.

Money open the door for learn and if you have money and you dont learn is because you are lazy if is your case dont complain, just learn, is up to you, the embarrazment is yours.

Every one learns, more or less. It's just a matter of motivation. I think that if everyone who put >1000 euros on gear would also invest some in music lessons then we would have a hell lot of more interesting music around.

Why don't you worry about your own music rather than bleeting on an internet forum about these "talentless" knob twiddling individuals with better equipment than you?

Hey, the point here is to stirr discussion and bring up a "forgotten" viewpoints. As I said, it's easy to get really started on music and expand the synth hobby from knob tweaking to actual fun and rewarding music making.

I think it goes without saying that the proliferation of computer-based music tools and loop-based platforms has seriously lowered the barrier to entry for regular old people (like me) to make "music." On the whole, I think this is a Good Thing (TM), but it does mean that there will be a lot more people out there who are able to record unfathomable noise at the same fidelity that professional musicians enjoy and claim that it is music.

This is a good point. The threshold to acquiring decent studio is indeed lowered, but it has also deceived some people to think that it has also lowered the treshold of making music. Afterall machine is just a machine. Now here we can use the car analogy more efficiently: A car needs a driver.

But I'm certainly not judging; I have loads of pro-audio equipment I have collected over the years, and I have never even finished writing a single song. But after a long day at the office, I love coming home and twiddling knobs and making sounds. I may not be a fabulous musician or composer but I do know enough about synthesizers to enjoy what they let me do with sound, and I know enough about the piano to play melodies and tunes that allow me to enjoy the instruments.

And now I command you to take heed of my advice and take some of your freetime to go to few music lessons. Go and come back wiser than ever! There's nothing I could recommend you more.

Anecdotally, I actually got my TI because I always lose inspiration when the technology starts getting in the way of the music-making process (we've all been there...). The TI seems to integrate so seamlessly, which is awesome. I recently upgraded to Logic Express 8 as well, which has a much better UI than older versions, so I hope to find it less frustrating. This is sort of my "final stab" at making music a bit more serious of a hobby, so I'm hoping the tools have matured sufficiently to let me finally do that.

Technology. Ah, the sweet technology. That satan was the thing that crippled my creativity. When I was forced to work with almost zero technology, the golden ages of trackers, I made about one track a month. Sometimes even one trac a week! Then I got older and got some serious money to spend on gear and what happened... Three to four tracks a year, tops. And no, it wasn't better quality over quantity in terms of musicality in contrast to my previous tracker stuff. The technology just crippled my creativity. Just simple embarrassment of riches. I spend the most time doing useless shit like tweaking sounds and deciding what kind of FX i put there instead of putting the most effort in the music itself like in the old days. Technology can be your friend but it's also a dreadful enemy. Beware boys and girls.

Indeed, what would you say Squarepusher is when he alternating between playing his bass guitar and controlling a drum machine in time to someone else's record which he is playing on a turntable?

Just a wild guess: A musician because he's playing a bass?

Out of interest, where would you put turntabilists in the definition;

A good turntablism is art and, indeed, music. This is when you turn the turntable into a musical instrument. It's not always the tool used, it's about the way the tool is used.

It's like a sampler: You can play one loop from it and that's it. An instrument used to somethin that's not actually playing anything. It's like an inversion of that turntable question.

On a related note, the main reason I'm currently re-learning to play the violin is to finally record a version of a track I wrote a few years back (for 3 synthetic violin parts) on 'proper' electric violins, exactly as I want it. Would I bother if I had free access to 3 professional violinists I could communicate with effectively enough to get it exactly as I wanted? Probably not; I enjoy the 'production' side more and am better at it. Criticising people for this is akin to saying an architect is in some way inferior to a builder because the latter actually makes the building. I'd say they both play their part.

Playing is not the thing that makes a musician. A composer is also a musician. For example I do a lots of stuff that I would be ablo to actually play unless I'd intensively train for months. The whole idea in music is that it's versatile. You can play, you can compose, you can sing. There is no actual definition for musicality.

[waxahachie]

Nice number of copy/paste but what is you point Juho?
Music is a language dude, anyways I can see I dont motivate a shit so every one be happy doing whatever.
I quit from this post, dont have sence speak more.
Have fun.

[Juho L]

The answers here speak for each one how much knowledge have the people about music notation.

Hell with notation. What good is writing and reading if you don't know the language. Notation is a triviality in this case. It's a tool, not music itself.

And the big question : who cares? the answer is "you" because you are only one steep to be a real composer learning music and writing your creations like a professional and speak same language over the planet without need to memorize thousand of visual plays.

It's kinda paradoxal to first speak of importance of understanding of notation as a basis of music (in aggravatevily speaking) and then about universal language of music. Universal language of music is rythmic/melodic sound - Not the mice shit on paper. Hoho.

discussion of the 70's is not relevant here. 80's electronic music was heavily sequenced (new order? erasure). 90's was the blossoming of electronic dance music... and now here we are... in a world where I have a sample sequencing program on my iphone.

Hey, it is relevant! Same shit, different decade, you know. The technology just have offered a new ways to "cheat" in good and bad. Like I mentioned in my last post, it's a double-edged sword. Technology is not an excuse for wiping out the principles and importance of music in terms of theory and playing.

regardless... I heartily defend my definition of electronic music as modern folk music... as not all electronic music is folk music... but some folk music is electronic... and it is folk by definition... not by style.

What we now need is your definition of folk music. As you know, for example Encyclopedia Britannica defines folk music this way: "type of traditional and generally rural music that originally was passed down through families and other small social groups."

Now we need to fit electronic music in that definition. It is possible to create folk music influenced electornic music, but electronic music being folk music? Nope. The problem is that folk music has even more deeper historical roots than classical music. It's very tightly bond to regional cultural heritages.

how long before electronic music parties become a "tradition"?

Really long. For example Finnish folk has its roots in over thousand years in the past. The folk of US is probably the only "new" folk, but it has most of its roots in Irish and British folk, so its not genuinely new either.

By the way what is this obsession with folk anyways? A some certain music being folk doesn't make it any better. It's just a way to differiate culturally and thus historically relevant music from others, just like rock as a genre defines rock music. Genres are there for making defining music easier. Messing the genres just cause confusion.

rock music is going to be classical in 200 years... no? ever heard the term "classic rock"? how do you think black sabbath would have felt about that term back in 75?

how about the term "classic rave"? I'm the one and only dominator!

Classical is classical and probably always will be. It's just all triviality. Let's not confuse people with mixing genre stuff in sake of mixing genres.

[Juho L]

Nice number of copy/paste but what is you point Juho?

Hoho. It could be a rather difficult to get anything sensible out from that "quote everything" dribble.

Let's see. I think I'll have to recap it myself too. Hoho.

Well, the point is that:

a) It's completely ok to scrabble synths and other stuff and just fool around with them. Expensive toys, but hey, it's not my money.
b) It's effortless to progress from fooling around with toys to making music with instruments.
c) It's useless to bicker and argue who's a musician and who's not. Although it can be philosophically challenging to come up with an exact definition of musicianship, it's simple to assume everyone that's actually creating music, regardless of methods, is a musician.

[Juho L]

Music is a language dude, anyways I can see I dont motivate a shit so every one be happy doing whatever.

We are not giving up because of flood of counter arguments, are we? Hey, a bit more persistency, mate. Good cause, hard battle.

I quit from this post, dont have sence speak more.
Have fun.

We just started here! The long journey of reasoning the goal of the motivation you're after.

[teethofgold]

the definition you provided for folk music is the one I agree with! what will people look back upon from our modern culture and view as "historically significant" music of the people?

the real point is that not all of these people are trying to be rock stars... much like folk musicians aren't trying to be successful... they are just playing the music because they love it. there is room for new traditions... give it time...

still... this discussion of "people can't play keyboards" is seriously flawed in that some of the best electronic music (in my opinion) is not even physically possible to play.

[Juho L]

the definition you provided for folk music is the one I agree with! what will people look back upon from our modern culture and view as "historically significant" music of the people?

the real point is that not all of these people are trying to be rock stars... much like folk musicians aren't trying to be successful... they are just playing the music because they love it. there is room for new traditions... give it time...

Folk has its roots in the roots of historic culture of the whole nation. That's the reason why electronic music cannot be, or even become, folk in the frames defined earlier. Well, to be exact, electronic music can become folk if you somehow manage to put up a completely new nation with its own cultural heritage includes electronic music, but that just seems utopistic.

still... this discussion of "people can't play keyboards" is seriously flawed in that some of the best electronic music (in my opinion) is not even physically possible to play.

Somehow the whole thread started to revolve around playing instead of general knowledge of basics of music. That's wrong way. Music and playing are different things. Playing is part of music, but not music itself.

Sure thing composer can be lousy player. For example I am a crappy player, but it doesn't prevent me from composing. Although complete lack of knowledge of theory of music and the basic concepts would seriously hinder my composing, or even making it completely impossible. You couldn't play or compose without knowing the basics and theory of music. So in conclusion music is theory and basics. There is no language without grammar. Now this is the point I'm after!

[Juho L]

Heck. My eyes had completely missed this one...

Oh yes. It's amazing how many people can't do the basics of synthesis correctly. They tweak some patches in absynth/massive and it sounds good, but the don't really understand what they've done.

I don't think the problem is in incapability of using synths. It's just the cursed "because that guys does this, I'll do too" playground mentality.

Harmless enough in itself, but it's annoying when they then start making ill-informed comments about synth x's capabilities because they weren't able to get something great out of it in 5 minutes (and of course, someone else then reads this and takes it as gospel).

The most common case I've encountered is that the useability of a synth is defined by the famous users of it.

I made an ambient track a few years back in Reason 1.0 that used nothing other than one instance of the (admittedly rather basic) 'Subtractor' synth and the standard (again v. basic) Reason FX units. I didn't reveal how I'd made the track. One individual who only days earlier had been saying how rubbish Subtractor was and how all Reason tracks sounded alike and were too thin, liked it and confidently said that he "could tell" the track was made with a few Absynth patches* and a real sample of someone snoring. :D

This happens when image gets more powerful than the reality. This is the thing in which most of the bogus high fidelity stuff is based on: Make a person believe that it makes a difference and, like by a magic, the person starts to hear the difference. Psychology is great!

[teethofgold]

I would say "culture" instead of nation. in america we have a variety of different styles of folk music that are tied regionally... but are more about the specific cultures that spawned them.

I thought the thread started off discussing the physical playing of music.. but I agree with you that musical knowledge is the real issue here... because it takes some knowledge to jam with an arpeggiator and make it sound good!

[Juho L]

I would say "culture" instead of nation. in america we have a variety of different styles of folk music that are tied regionally... but are more about the specific cultures that spawned them.

I pointed out earlier that the "new" folk of US is actually mixbag of old folk from Europe, so it's not actually new stuff.

[teethofgold]

juho, this idea you seem to be perpetuating that folk music is some sort of fixed genre seems pretty short sighted. music evolves. which genre can you point to this isn't synthesized from another, previously existing genre?

your point about american folk is certainly way off base... because some american folk integrates the european folk with the african slaves and their traditional song and chanting styles... creating music which was never heard before. of course you can point to it's roots... but it is still something different from what was there before... and more to my point... it is the music of the people of the time...

[meisenhower]

This kind of "discussion" is going likely polarize its contributors into two distinct groups (with some obvious crossover, hybrids and everything in between), but I'm making a very broad generalization.

1. THOSE WHO PLAY: At its highest level, these are people who have spend years in study, crafting their artform, learning technique, theory, composition and can read, write, perform, and play in virtually any situation presented. This can be somewhat genre specific, but the chops and musical knowledge are there. Think "studio" hired gun in NYC, LA, London, Nashville.

They can also be anyone who took some lessons at some point in their life on their instrument of choice (and became proficient), can read some music (chord charts), maybe play better by ear, played in bands over the years and have some understanding of the creative musical process and how to put together melody, harmony structure, rhythm and texture to create "music."


2. THOSE WHO DO NOT PLAY: These are DJ's, producers and others who "produce" music by creating beats, loops, samples, sequences, patterns. They may or may not; "play" an instrument, may or may not understand music theory, may or may not read music, or have ever performed in an ensemble, and are largely in the electronic music realm.

Both can make musically satisfying sound scapes, make high quality tracks and produce successful commercial product.

However, to call someone a "musician" who doesn't play an instrument or understand musical structure, or "hasn't done the work" is often considered to be a personal affront to those who have.

The tools that have emerged in recent history have allowed virtually anyone to create and perform music and this is a good thing. It is however, akin to the "dumbing down" of the musical process, in that those who create solely by these means are not tapping their full potential, as the more we know, the more we can do.

I think we've seen an overall decline in "musicianship" with the advances in technology and the "playing assist" devices that have become so common in music today.

Why worry about playing a complex passage cleanly, when you can simply play it poorly into a sequencer and "clean it up" afterwards? Why bother to develop technique to play, when the "computer has all the chops you need"?

Why? Because a "musician" is often defined by their command of the instrument. It doesn't matter what your genre is, there are accomplished players and there are "hacks" (except in maybe classical music, as hacks don't usually get too far in the professional ranks).

One doesn't have to be a virtuoso, but should demonstrate some competency on your instrument of choice (and by instrument, I'm not including loop players, sample players, sequencers, beat boxes or drum machines).

If you can play your instrument AND use all the gadgets above, then you have a well rounded "bag of tricks".

[IamEvil]

However, to call someone a "musician" who doesn't play an instrument or understand musical structure, or "hasn't done the work" is often considered to be a personal affront to those who have.

The online dictionary states that a musician is someone who composes, conducts or performs music.

I don't believe that someone who jangles a tambourine in a band to be more of a musician or musically superior to anyone who composes, sequences and produces full songs.


I think we've seen an overall decline in "musicianship" with the advances in technology and the "playing assist" devices that have become so common in music today.

I don't think we have seen a decline. There are people around who can still play instruments , probably the same amount as there always has been. The thing that has changed is the amount of coverage that people can now enjoy.
20 years ago your average guy with a TR606 and TB303 couldn't make music videos and songs and then post for to the whole world to listen to. They remained hidden in bedrooms until they "got lucky"

Why worry about playing a complex passage cleanly, when you can simply play it poorly into a sequencer and "clean it up" afterwards? Why bother to develop technique to play, when the "computer has all the chops you need"?

In the past music was playable live, people emulated their idols by buying similar equipment and copying the chords and leads. Now alot of electronic music with its complexity is beyond the capability of humans to play live. There is no point trying to learn to play a certain style when it isn't going to bring you closer to the goal you desire. Why waste 8 hours a day practicing keyboard skills when it could be used in learning how to produce professional sounding sellable music ?

[meisenhower]

Why waste 8 hours a day practicing keyboard skills when it could be used in learning how to produce professional sounding sellable music ?

Are seriously going to stick with that statement?

I guess all of those years of playing scales, learning theory and composition were all a waste then?

Try and sit in with a jazz trio as a pianist and you'll quickly see where those 8 hours a day of practicing scales and learning theory can come in pretty handy. I don't need to sequence anything, as there aren't any technical passages that I can't play live.

I guess that by that ill conceived logic, if you can sequence a Herbie Hancock solo, then that makes you as good as Herbie Hancock? Not by a long shot.

It is exactly this kind of attitude that is making "musicians" extinct.

[IamEvil]

Are seriously going to stick with that statement?

Yes


I guess all of those years of playing scales, learning theory and composition were all a waste then?

YOUR music may require you to have a deep understanding of these things , my music doesn't. How come you cannot understand that we both do different things and because of it our priorities are very different.


Try and sit in with a jazz trio as a pianist and you'll quickly see where those 8 hours a day of practicing scales and learning theory can come in pretty handy. I don't need to sequence anything, as there aren't any technical passages that I can't play live.

In modern day sequencing , why would I need to play anything live ? If I can't play something perfect then I slow the sequencer tempo down and overdub and fix notes later. It will get me the exact same end result.

Why don't you sit down and try and write some trance or techno, you will quickly see that those 8 hours a day of practicing scales were wasted.

I guess that by that ill conceived logic, if you can sequence a Herbie Hancock solo, then that makes you as good as Herbie Hancock? Not by a long shot.

I'm not disputing that people have talents for playing music. I'm disputing the fact that this thread is stating that poeple who can't play live are talentless or any less a musician.
The end result is what matters and not how you go about getting it down.

Say for eg. we both wrote the exact same song and by sheer coincidence made an exact duplicate audio cd from recording it, are you saying that you are the musician because you played it live and I wouldn't be - even through the end result is exactly the same ? Do you think anyone listening to the CD would actually care either way ?

It is exactly this kind of attitude that is making "musicians" extinct.

get over yourself, theres more music around today than there ever has been.

[meisenhower]

Sorry, but if you don't PLAY (programming a sequence at 25% of the tempo doesn't count as playing) a musical instrument (synths DO count as musical instruments), don't create your tracks (by your own hand) from your instrument and cannot play what you write (without technical assistance), or can't perform your music without sequencing, DAWs, arpeggiators or loops.

You're not a musician.

Producer? Perhaps. DJ? Perhaps.

Musician? Not on your life.

Flame away! I'll be keeping warm at the Grand Piano

8)

[IamEvil]

Sorry, but if you don't PLAY (programming a sequence at 25% of the tempo doesn't count as playing) a musical instrument (synths DO count as musical instruments), don't create your tracks (by your own hand) from your instrument and cannot play what you write (without technical assistance), or can't perform your music without sequencing, DAWs, arpeggiators or loops.

You're not a musician.

The dictionary definition says I am. Since you aren't the last word or any authority on the subject, I'll stick with the facts thanks.

mu·si·cian (my-zshn)
n.
One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

Musician? Not on your life.

WRONG !


Flame away! I'll be keeping warm at the Grand Piano

8)

what makes you think you're worth the effort ?

[teethofgold]

Sorry, but if you don't PLAY (programming a sequence at 25% of the tempo doesn't count as playing) a musical instrument (synths DO count as musical instruments), don't create your tracks (by your own hand) from your instrument and cannot play what you write (without technical assistance), or can't perform your music without sequencing, DAWs, arpeggiators or loops.

You're not a musician.

Producer? Perhaps. DJ? Perhaps.

Musician? Not on your life.

Flame away! I'll be keeping warm at the Grand Piano

8)

expecting people to play electronic music live is like expecting someone to create 3D animation with a pencil and paper.

[Khazul]

(Gets abestos pants on...)

I probably count as an instrumentalist - I play all keyboard parts (and sometimes sax, guitar and bass and drum and percussion parts) for all music I produce - (theres some stuff of mine on this forum's radio that whats I can play, but it was edited afterwards to make it tight - Late Night Messin is probably a good example, or Sunset and Escape on my soundcloud page).

However there is no way in hell I can consistently play to the level of tight precision needed for most modern dance music so I end up tweaking and quantizing most stuff I record. I can probably manage keys for the loosness of the average guitar band.

I think 'musician' is regarded very broadly these days - a musician makes music - period. Whether by programming everything, playing instruments, or even just writing and getting someone else to play it (human programming?), or hashing together loops etc...

In this sense - most of us here are musicians - the ones who aint are those who cant actually string a musical peice together, nor play anything that is involved in music, or are strictly DJs, or are strictly sound engineers etc.

A DJ isnt a musician - a turtablist is (IMHO) - Turntablists are usualy also DJs, very few DJs can count themselves as turntablists.

The grey area to my mind is someone who create music pieces by stringing together and mixing pre-made samples and loops - ie where they are not actually writing any melodies or chord progressions, or writing rhythms etc, just mixing it all up - they aint musicians by any definition I can think of.

[annikk.exe]

expecting people to play electronic music live is like expecting someone to create 3D animation with a pencil and paper.

And writing about music is like dancing about architecture :>


It's weird thinking about why people make posts that they acknowledge they will be flamed for. What is the objective? To be flamed? Surely everyone knows nobody participating in a debate will leave with a different opinion from the one they started with.

I can play most of the stuff in my songs, but there are some things like glitch that are very very difficult for humans to play unassisted. I spend my time writing music though, not worrying about whether I am really a musician or not. :>


-Annikk

[Monobeat]

I think that root of this arguement is out of jealosy somehow. I am not a good keyboard player, and would never claim to be. I am a drummer foremost, which lead me into rhythm programming, and paved the way into composition...

I think someone is jealous of my synthesizers and wants them for his own collection.

You'll have to pry them out of my cold dead hands.

[maelstrom808]

Music is music. It does not matter if the the person who created it spent more time in front of a piano roll window than they did with hands on the keys. It does not matter if they put more hours in cutting and editing audio than they did with an instrument in hand.

The lines between producer, musician, DJ, engineer, etc. blur more and more everyday. Expression is not limited to those who fill the traditional role of a musician. Technology opens up new avenues of creativity. You end up with more hacks, but you also end up more options for the truely talented as well as inviting new artists in, and that is well worth the trade off.

If you are primarily concerned with the previously mentioned hack's commercial success, my advice is don't be. The same situation exists in every proffession, and it has always existed and will always continue to exists.

Creativity and inspiration will come through in the end product if it was there to begin with. It doesn't matter what tools were used to create it. A good song is a good song regardless of how it was made.

[Khazul]

You'll have to pry them out of my cold dead hands.

This can be arranged :D

[Monobeat]

I've decided to move deeper underground. As suspected by myself and several others that should remain anonymous, the Infekted posse has scouts/ sniper all over the country listening with their highly sophisticated techno detection/ synthesizer decernment gear, and are waiting to move in and "off" those people suspected of not being good keyboard players.

I suggest...

1) Relocating
2) Switching to polka.
3) "Donating" at least 1 piece of gear to me for long term inspection.

[IamEvil]

I've decided to move deeper underground. As suspected by myself and several others that should remain anonymous, the Infekted posse has scouts/ sniper all over the country listening with their highly sophisticated techno detection/ synthesizer decernment gear, and are waiting to move in and "off" those people suspected of not being good keyboard players.

I suggest...

1) Relocating
2) Switching to polka.
3) "Donating" at least 1 piece of gear to me for long term inspection.

Noo!

You can't play live 16th notes on 210bpm speedcore/gabber... you arent a musician , you should only use casio !

[suzzymackenzie]

Hmmm ... reminded of Leonard Cohen's 'Jazz Police' :)

I'm much less sniffy than I once was about what constitutes a musician - for instance, shifted my stance about turntablists. Still think there is special status for the ability to perform your work live to an audience, because music is inter alia a communication medium and nothing enhances that more than actually being there. A couple of days ago I went with my daughter to her first 'open mic' session at a local music pub. She's an avid consumer of mainstream production-heavy pop and used to that level of sonic quality. But as we listened to an amateur guitar/perc/accordeon trio delivering a technically flawed but fun tune she turned to me grinning and said 'Aren't they GOOD?!'

[meisenhower]

Let's just say on this subject, some of us simply disagree about what constitutes a "musician", but do it without being disagreeable.

To those of us who have taken the "long" view about learning our craft, we are naturally going to be sensitive about broad comments like "practicing scales for 8 hours a day is a waste of time, when one could be learning how to make commercially successful music". It's like being dismissive of Thelonious Monk, because he didn't sell one platinum album in his lifetime.

As it was pointed out, some electronic music would be physically impossible for ANYONE to play at certain tempos, however that is the nature of that particular beast. No argument here on that point. I won't discuss the relative "musical" merits of a 210bpm song, but to each his own.

If you're a knob twiddler, loop slicer or beat maker, and you're making music and it makes you happy. All the better.

If you simply pick up your guitar, strum to your hearts content and enjoy doing it. Great.

If you're a practice wonk and live for scales and theory and want to master as much of your chosen instrument as possible, have at it.

The music world is certainly big enough for all of us.

[IamEvil]

Let's just say on this subject, some of us simply disagree about what constitutes a "musician", but do it without being disagreeable.

No , lets not "just say"

This is just a way for you to "rosey up" what is basically YOUR incorrect understanding of the term musician.

Your views on what a musician is are irrelevent. I've already showed you what our language defines as a musician. This isn't something that you can change to suit.

So I guess then I will be "disagreeable". Sorry


To those of us who have taken the "long" view about learning our craft, we are naturally going to be sensitive about broad comments like "practicing scales for 8 hours a day is a waste of time, when one could be learning how to make commercially successful music". It's like being dismissive of Thelonious Monk, because he didn't sell one platinum album in his lifetime.

That may have applied when taken from the actual context that was intended. Why didn't you quote the complete part I stated.. oh yes , it wouldn't suit your silly argument. Hey , let me do it for you..

There is no point trying to learn to play a certain style when it isn't going to bring you closer to the goal you desire. Why waste 8 hours a day practicing keyboard skills when it could be used in learning how to produce professional sounding sellable music ?

There you go ,

Now please explain how practicing scales for 8 hours a day will help in the composition of music that doesn't require you to play live ?


If you're a knob twiddler, loop slicer or beat maker, and you're making music and it makes you happy. All the better.

not really , the world is full of smug arrogant people who love to visit internet forums to try and pull other people down.



The music world is certainly big enough for all of us.

Obviously not by the first post in this thread.

peace

[meisenhower]

Evil, you are certainly living up to your name.

I don't wish to mince words with a wanker with an inferiority complex about their lack of skills, and I'm certainly not trying to "rosey up" to anyone (least of all you).

Be disagreeable, as that is one area that you seem to have "talent". Talent making music? Haven't heard any thing that would suggest that, sad to say.

Since when does practicing 8 hours a day limited to someone playing in a particular "style?" Do you think that long practice is the bastion of only classical and jazz musicians?

Because I have practiced 8 hours a day (certainly when preparing to play a classical concert), but also to develop the requisite technical ability on my instrument to not limit what I can play. Practicing 8 hours a day will eventually give you mastery over your instrument of choice. It also instills discipline into a person and teaches and rewards patience.

There is something to be said for mastering something in one's life (and Evil has mastered making "multiple quote" responses in his replies. I guess all that technical machine experience is paying off.

It's no different than years of advanced study at a university, or formal training in the other arts (painting, sculpture). Sure, anyone with a canvas, brush and paint can create something (and in some rare instances, a truly gifted individual comes along and breaks all the conventions), but having studied the formal techniques, knowing about color and composition and years of practice and study is the path to a career.

I don't understand why anyone would think that dedication, fortitude and the desire to be as proficent as possible, through whatever measures necessary can be a waste of time, and not see the value proposition.

I'm certainly not trying to put anyone down, with the exception of maybe . . . oh never mind.

Lastly, I wasn't the first post on this thread, as my first comment happened around page 3 or 4. There are people in front of me that don't share your opinion, Evil! What a shock.

[Khazul]

Noo!

You can't play live 16th notes on 210bpm speedcore/gabber... you arent a musician , you should only use casio !

I count an arpegiator as a live performance tool for doing that of shit :)

[IamEvil]

Evil, you are certainly living up to your name.

My name is Marc , IamEvil was something off the TV as I was joining this and another forum one night. You didn't think my real name was Evil did you? - I do ask this semi seriously due to your previous post history


I don't wish to mince words with a wanker with an inferiority complex about their lack of skills, and I'm certainly not trying to "rosey up" to anyone (least of all you).

you have zero argument so now you resort to name calling, a real internet big man.

Be disagreeable, as that is one area that you seem to have "talent". Talent making music? Haven't heard any thing that would suggest that, sad to say.

And now resorting to the predictable personal attacks...

For your information; the tracks you're refering to linked on my sig. are tracks written from Day 1 of owning my first synth/sequencer (which explains my overcompression and lack of true mixing skills). They are my learning process, each time I bought a new synth I would write a quick song using it to see what type of sounds I could get from it.
For reference , Antigravity was all CS2X , Eternal (All Deepbass09), Let Go (All JD800), Dark Matter (All Supernova 2) etc etc..

So insult away , I wrote those songs usually within a few days of a new synth and still probably done in the same time frame that you were still hitting wrong notes playing Three Blind Mice.



Since when does practicing 8 hours a day limited to someone playing in a particular "style?" Do you think that long practice is the bastion of only classical and jazz musicians?

you have skipped my question and replied with a question.. Please answer my question about why a person needs to practice scales when they do not play live.

To answer your question, No , I don't think long practice sessions are for classical and jazz players. I think they should be for people who PLAY LIVE MUSIC.

Because I have practiced 8 hours a day (certainly when preparing to play a classical concert), but also to develop the requisite technical ability on my instrument to not limit what I can play. Practicing 8 hours a day will eventually give you mastery over your instrument of choice. It also instills discipline into a person and teaches and rewards patience.

to be quite blunt here.. Please quit trying to suck your own dick, I'm not interested how many hours you have put in to playing your damn scales. I don't really care that you can play with both hands in time and up and down your keyboard. You and your ego are not the topic of the thread.


There is something to be said for mastering something in one's life (and Evil has mastered making "multiple quote" responses in his replies. I guess all that technical machine experience is paying off.

grow up


It's no different than years of advanced study at a university, or formal training in the other arts (painting, sculpture). Sure, anyone with a canvas, brush and paint can create something (and in some rare instances, a truly gifted individual comes along and breaks all the conventions), but having studied the formal techniques, knowing about color and composition and years of practice and study is the path to a career.

yeah , you're a real hero aren't you.


I don't understand why anyone would think that dedication, fortitude and the desire to be as proficent as possible, through whatever measures necessary can be a waste of time, and not see the value proposition.

I'm quite sure you're just baiting now and throwing words out which you know are taken out of context.

I guess some of us are happy to repetatively parot out other peoples tunes on a piano to learn how to play, while others want to invest that time into learning sound programming , sequencer programming , drum programming , effects unit programming , compressing , EQing and probably a bit of mastering.




I'm certainly not trying to put anyone down, with the exception of maybe . . . oh never mind.

Lastly, I wasn't the first post on this thread, as my first comment happened around page 3 or 4. There are people in front of me that don't share your opinion, Evil! What a shock.

Your inflated ego assumes I was on about you when I wasn't, how sweet.



I'm now going to ask you to put your money where your mouth is and challenge you.

Currently I'm waiting the arrival of a new audio PC so don't have access to my sequencer or music software at the moment , so you will have to wait a week or so....

I've listened to your myspace errr stuff so I know where you're comming from musically(?), I'll write a track similar to what you have on your myspace and you have to write a track similar to my Oblivion track.

To prove you have done it , you have to not only post an audio MP3 of the completed track but also a sequencer .CPR track to show you haven't just nicked it.

up for it ?

[teethofgold]

I love it!

does a mod wheel count as an instrument? how about a kaoss pad?

[Monobeat]

I applaude Meisenhower and his defense of his keyboard skills. I am almost certain he is trying to brighten our days, all over the world, in studios stretching from New Zealand to Iceland to Russia... in all walks of life, with his glorious satire... If I am wrong... I'll be laughing even harder. :) I have shared this thread with everyone I work with and we have all shared a hearty belly laugh over a nice cup of my favorite coffee...

I think someone needs to meditate, then perhaps go for a walk. Maybe even try doing a handstand...

The escalating tension brings me very far from the musical connection I usually feel with all of you guys/girls (suzie)....

:)

[LivePsy]

still... this discussion of "people can't play keyboards" is seriously flawed in that some of the best electronic music (in my opinion) is not even physically possible to play.

This is true, and it is also true that the sound is far more important than the notes. We're treating music like its 600 years ago and musical scales somehow are relevant. Learning music LIMITs you incredibly, but learning to listen and eventually create something you hear inside is the real skill.

I've learnt piano passing all the grades in NZ and frankly had to unlearn a lot of crap to start appreciating and then making electronic music. Music is NOT about notes, its about sounds and silence. When we were able to create any sound imaginable, we left traditional music behind. Some of us just don't realise it yet...

B

[synthfiend]

my 2 cents;

even though a lot of electronic music is dependant on the sounds and their movement (rather than formal music composition), I think there is still quite a lot of underlying musicality to electronic stuff. Even if the composer does not realise it. Maybe a lot of electronic musicians (who are not formally trained in music) create tunes by ear...

[Ceri JC]

As a newcomer to this forum, would I be correct in assuming the debate about needing to play an instrument to be a musician is "one of those topics", which, like analogue versus digital or pretty much any "x sounds better than y" discussion, everyone has an opinion on and which always ends in tears?

:)

[IamEvil]

As a newcomer to this forum, would I be correct in assuming the debate about needing to play an instrument to be a musician is "one of those topics", which, like analogue versus digital or pretty much any "x sounds better than y" discussion, everyone has an opinion on and which always ends in tears?

:)

Wouldn't be much point going on the interweb if everyone hi-5'd each other and agreed though would it ?
:D

[meisenhower]

To all on this forum, it wasn't my intent to go on a crusade in defense of pianists, keyboard players or the like. I was merely responding to the "original" spirit of this thread that "musicians" by both "my personal definition" and obviously, the person who started this thread's definition.

What ensued was a battle for words between two people who come from very different musical experiences (genre, training, style and most importantly, philosophy).

I certainly don't wish to continue a pointless diatribe, particularly when there is absolutely no willingness by the other parties to consider a different view.

I made an effort to clarify my position, and was accused of trying to "rosey up" to the forum. Frankly, I won't lose any sleep over it.

My only reason for joining this forum, was to gain some insight and perspective on my latest gear acquisition (Virus TI Kbd) and not to debate the relative merits of other peoples music and how they create it.

That being said, to Marc (Evil), I have no interest in participating in a "grudge match" to satisfy your juvenile tendencies. Feel free to go on about "how I won't put up, so I have to shut up." If that makes you feel victorious, then enjoy your feeling. My time can be better spent doing virtually anything else than responding to your ridiculous proposition. I've nothing to prove and my music stands on it's own merits (as do the performances, all done in real time, live in the studio).

Like it? Don't like it? Don't care?

Fine with me!

I'll not dignify any further negative commentary on this thread, so happy reading!

[IamEvil]

To all on this forum, it wasn't my intent to go on a crusade in defense of pianists, keyboard players or the like. I was merely responding to the "original" spirit of this thread that "musicians" by both "my personal definition" and obviously, the person who started this thread's definition.

What ensued was a battle for words between two people who come from very different musical experiences (genre, training, style and most importantly, philosophy).

I certainly don't wish to continue a pointless diatribe, particularly when there is absolutely no willingness by the other parties to consider a different view.

You posted a post which you knew would cause a backlash and that you would get called out for - hence you typing "Flame Away" at the end.

Once called out, you then resorted to not only attempting to insult my old music but also personally insult me. Luckily I don't really give much of a shit about many things in life , espeically what some random annonymous person on the other side of the planet thinks about me.


That being said, to Marc (Evil), I have no interest in participating in a "grudge match" to satisfy your juvenile tendencies. Feel free to go on about "how I won't put up, so I have to shut up." If that makes you feel victorious, then enjoy your feeling. My time can be better spent doing virtually anything else than responding to your ridiculous proposition. I've nothing to prove and my music stands on it's own merits (as do the performances, all done in real time, live in the studio).

You think this is somehow about 1up manship for me ? bizarre

your whole debate in this thread has gone along the lines of "Hey I'm awesome , youre shit , I play live and you don't , youre a wanker , did I tell you how awesome I am ? oh and your music is shit"

Even this last "farewell" post of yours is based on your egotistical assumption that people on the internet actually give a fuck about you and your position.

I asked you to have competition because a) It would give me something challenging to do , b) it might be fun , c) it would show me how someone not into my style of music would interperate it.

obviously you being you took it as an act of war or whatever , but hey , it's all fun

happy new year

[feedingear]

Ah the hard done by 'jazz' muso. Seen enough of them at my time at WAAPA and their holier then thou, over the top arrogance.

Funnily enough, the truly talented individuals I have met in Jazz or otherwise are usually the most humble, focused, and easiest to socialise with. They care about MUSIC.. the end result. Connection from the creator to the listener.

[Zylfrax791]

Well, I can see in youtube the decadence of the music and zero creativity and originality, mostly of the people don't play keyboards or don't even use one, looks like the artists now are the engineers and designers because sad to say almost all the people expend thousands and thousands of Dollars on music equipment just for play with them like toys with zero music knowledge, you can see the new fashion called "jam", the guys just switch on sequencers and arppregiators twist a little few knobs and they call that music, just patetic.
I believe the sequencers and the arppregiators are tools for help to play not a way to play music.



I suppose you have to expect this when you watch YouTube but I also see this in live performances as well. In the main genre that I'm into (industrial) everyone including myself sequences pretty much everything out in the studio and plays live lead keys to backing tracks because it would be next to impossible to play the multi-layer stuff from scratch. Industrial bands with lots of dough like NIN for instance also use a personal ear monitor click track that is synced up to the sequencers as well so they can be in time with their live drums etc...

That said, there are numerous bands that I have seen of lately in my area where from what I can tell don't play anything live at all. Dude is pounding away on an Octopad but it isn't in sync with the snare I'm hearing live and another guy is wailing away on a keyboard but again from my educated eye all the sound is really coming out of their ipod or whatever they are using. Half the time I'm not even sure if the vocalist is really singing or lip syncing as well.

Anyway, in my previous band and current band I actually play keys that you can hear in the mix during pretty much the entire song. I know all the notes of my verses, choruses and bridges so I don't feel like I'm cheating people that pay money to come see a live show, not see a bunch of air guitar performers....

Realistically, if I could find enough talented people I'd honestly try to pull the whole thing off live. It would take 2 good drummers and probably at least 2 additional keyboard players. Of all the bands that I listen to Combichrist probably comes the closest to a pure live industrial show. Thats my take on the subject...

[suzzymackenzie]

Yesterday I caught the tail end of an ordinary pop tune delivered by Little Boots and her band at the Reading fest. As the song wound up, LB started fiddling with en electronic device (was it the Tenori-On?), waving her palm over it and producing, arhythmically, stuttering cascades of random notes. I think the band may have been hoping she would just leave it alone. It seemed to me pure gimmickry that only interfered with the musicianship of the band. Just because a note can be generated doesn't mean it should be :)

[Spacer]

I think the topic's start point was that modern synthesizers were made life easy for everyone. Someone that doesnt know a think about making a track in 1 week or 2 can make track.

And I have to say yes it is exactly this, and this is dissapointing for some people that spent too much time of their life to create something that in the virus ti it can be made in 2 minutes...

The same example is with computers: from windows xp and over even a 5 year old kid can make an internet connection of dial up or dsl, on windows 98 you had to call the technician to do it (of course after that i learned, but for first time i did that), this is bad for technicians (good for the average user) but what we can do? life is like that,, always someone will need more and more time to study so to be recognisable that has more knowledge from someone average.

[LivePsy]

Music technology gear is just like a violin: its great in the hands of a talented person.

[Alakhai]

Music technology gear is just like a violin: its great in the hands of a talented person.

sure. and I'm also sure that a talented musician will always overrun a less talented one, no matter the gear they have. Some weeks ago I heard a guy with a 303 and a JP8080 doing great stuff...then I thought "I've got a TI, a piano, a laptop, a Triton, a KaossPad and so on, why can't i play like him??"...I guess it's not only a matter of technical skill [I'm a nearly-accomplished pianist, I never had troubles with "notes" in electronic music] but you need to know your gear and how to use it ;)

anyway, let me say that maybe one can make music without playing a key, and probably it could be even good music...but they will never have my pleasure in playing classical music on a piano [and, of course, playing romantic music for my girlfriend :D], that's enough for me.

of course, my 2 cents. no need for "crusades" ;)

[mitchiemasha]

I'll never be a musician. I bought my Virus as a toy. Something I just love to play with. I wanted 1, I saved and I bought. I play on it every day. Very badly too but it entertains me.