Pops and clicks

[Numina]

I've had my TI now for several years and still have problems with pops and clicks in multi mode typically with multis with 3 or more sounds at a time that are pads/drones. It's super annoying and was really hoping the new subsequent OS's over the years would have addressed this. Anyone else still notice this?

J.

[Chicago]

I've had my TI now for several years and still have problems with pops and clicks in multi mode typically with multis with 3 or more sounds at a time that are pads/drones.

Just curious, how complex are the sounds you are using? You can check this by looking at the 5 bar meter that is at the right side of the display when you are looking at the main patch screen.

It could be that even though you are only using a few sounds, they are very resource heavy (analog filter, fancy oscillator types, unison, etc) and you are red-lining the DSP processors.

There is a great section in the Snow manual on how this all works, and how to look for and deal with patches that are resource heavy.

Just a thought.

[Tiphares]

I do exactly have the same problems, but even sometimes when i use single mode. I also have my TI for many years now and the problems still exist even with the newest TIOS's.
I got in contact with the support team, but they explained me that the patches I use are ressource heavy and the problems are normal. I don't think that it's normal to max out the polyphony with only one patch and three notes at the same time. So I also would like to know if anyone else has the same problems.

For example, when I use ROM B 108 SuperWrmMS, three notes at the same time in the sequencer, i sometimes get nasty clicks, that can even be heard in the delay of the synth. It must be an internal problem. The don't occur very often, but only one such click can destroy your export or dump.

If anyone's interested in the cubase project, i will upload it.

What's also interesting is that the DSP load indicator on the TI is full (5 dots), even when I don't play a note with this patch. That means that any note can max out the dsp?

Thanks for the help and cheers

Tiphares

[Numina]

Hi - thanks for the responses. Yes, some of my patches are resource heavy with the bar-meter at about 4 or 5, but it doen't ever seem like I'm really pushing the limit on polyphony. Also, as Tiphares mentioned, I sometimes have this problem in single mode too - but usually seems to occur in multi.

I'm glad to know I'm not alone and will learn to live with it.

Thanks again.

J.

[marc]

I do exactly have the same problems, but even sometimes when i use single mode. I also have my TI for many years now and the problems still exist even with the newest TIOS's.
I got in contact with the support team, but they explained me that the patches I use are ressource heavy and the problems are normal. I don't think that it's normal to max out the polyphony with only one patch and three notes at the same time. So I also would like to know if anyone else has the same problems.

For example, when I use ROM B 108 SuperWrmMS, three notes at the same time in the sequencer, i sometimes get nasty clicks, that can even be heard in the delay of the synth. It must be an internal problem. The don't occur very often, but only one such click can destroy your export or dump.

If anyone's interested in the cubase project, i will upload it.

What's also interesting is that the DSP load indicator on the TI is full (5 dots), even when I don't play a note with this patch. That means that any note can max out the dsp?

Thanks for the help and cheers

Tiphares

the DSP load indicator shows how expensive a patch is. it is not an indicator for the current load. send me a cubase project and i'll have a look if it can replicate your findings.

best, marc
access music

[motorik]

Add me to the "still getting this after several years list." Subjectively, it doesn't sound like something caused by "a total dsp work asked of the Virus vs. it's total dsp capacity issue" ... it seems more like certain configurations / modulation setups cause unexpectedly large spikes in the required calculations.

I did some tests, and was unable to reproduce the behavior with high polyphony loads of a simple 2 osc test voice. I'm guessing it is a DSP overrun, but not a simple "making it do too much" thing. The best analogy I can come up with is that it's like a really strong person that can carry twenty cinderblocks, but can only juggle three of them.

I get this sometimes from a single, but mostly it's multitibral that causes it. It's gotten worse with the new OS. I believe it also got worse with the first version of the last big update, but improved again with subsequent builds.

It would be nice to have system total dsp display someplace.

This all relates to using Virus Control / Logic 8, btw. From what I remember from the old email list, people using the analog outs don't have this problem.

[suzzymackenzie]

the DSP load indicator shows how expensive a patch is. it is not an indicator for the current load

Really? I'm convinced I've seen that load indicator fluctuating for a given patch, in real time. :confused:

[Tiphares]

Thanks for the help!

The clicks also occur with a single patch, but if I want to be sure that they occur, I have to load more than one patch. It seems to me as if those problems mostly occur when the ti allocates the dsp power for a patch. After this "allocation" there are fewer problems. The clicks can be heard mostly at the beginning of a sequence of a "new" patch.

Here is a cubase project with an mp3-export.
We can clearly hear the clicks.

MP3:
http://home.zhaw.ch/~projebal/ti/problem.mp3

Project:
http://home.zhaw.ch/~projebal/ti/problem.cpr

I know that I'm kind of overloading the TI, but it's the only way to be sure that the problems occur.

Thanks in advance
Tiphares

[marc]

This all relates to using Virus Control / Logic 8, btw. From what I remember from the old email list, people using the analog outs don't have this problem.

anybody who discovers pops and clicks ONE with the USB outs and not with the analogue outs has a USB transmission problem. you're right in the respect that in the early days there were issues in virus control which could have resulted in those artefacts. i'm sure those don't exist anymore.

marc

[marc]

Really? I'm convinced I've seen that load indicator fluctuating for a given patch, in real time. :confused:

i know this effect when it hops from say 4 bars to 3 bars and back again. that's more like an inaccuracy in the measurement.
it updates in realtime when you change the sound but it doesn't take the amount of voices played into account.

marc

[suzzymackenzie]

i know this effect when it hops from say 4 bars to 3 bars and back again. that's more like an inaccuracy in the measurement.
it updates in realtime when you change the sound but it doesn't take the amount of voices played into account.

marc

Aha, I see. Thanks, Marc :)

[Ingo]

anybody who discovers pops and clicks ONE with the USB outs and not with the analogue outs has a USB transmission problem. you're right in the respect that in the early days there were issues in virus control which could have resulted in those artefacts. i'm sure those don't exist anymore.

marc
Hello, i am new to the forum but i own my Virus TI Desktop since around 2,5 years. I encountered problems from the first day until now. With OS 3.0 i still get pops and clicks in multimode (e.g. 3 parts: 2 "DSP-heavy" pads and a lead). Using Virus Control via USB gives less or no problems. As a result i see more problems when using the TI in Standalone mode.
I use a Virus TI Desktop with OS 3.0.0 pb. Computer: Windows Vista SP1 on Core2Quad Q6600 CPU (Desktop, 4 x 2,4 GHz) or Core2Duo (Notebook, 2 x 2,53 GHz) with Ableton Live 7.0.14. As a soundcard i use a M-Audio Ozonic firewire controller with built-in audio interface.

[Tiphares]

anybody who discovers pops and clicks ONE with the USB outs and not with the analogue outs has a USB transmission problem. you're right in the respect that in the early days there were issues in virus control which could have resulted in those artefacts. i'm sure those don't exist anymore.

marc

Thanks for the help.

I still have this artefacts even without USB-Connection, only with a midi cable coming from my midikeyboard and headphones plugged in the TI.

And if you set at the posted project the outs to analog, you also can hear the clicks. So it can't be the transmission...

Cheers,
Tiphares

[DigitAl56K]

I've had this problem from the moment I first turned on my TI through the OS 2.75 upgrade and now through the 3.0 beta upgrade, and I play it standalone. The problem seems to be related to the events that take place when a voice is triggered, this seems to be when pops/crackles occur, somewhat randomly. Personally I believe that what's happening is some kind of bug in the way the virus locks resources between its two DSPs so that one DSP can think a voice is released while another modifies its components, for example. If that happens while several voices are playing due to thread scheduling it may be a couple of milliseconds before the first DSP actually completes modifying original voice, so you hear a pop (depending on the patch properties and voice state). The pop then gets blasted through the effects unit and so with some patches it sounds worse than others (e.g. if there is a reverb). Anyway, that's my suspicion and I urge marc & team to double check their locking code and ensure that all voice-related components are stopped before locks are released, particularly in the case of stealing. Personally I can't believe that access can't fix this, it's the most widely reported problem with the TI ever since it was first released and made me worried about buying one in the first place. When I first turned on the TI I was sad to experience this issue almost immediately. Fortunately I'm glad to say that even with this issue I do love the virus, but that's no reason that access shouldn't fix the problem.

[marc]

user who discover pops and clicks: please contact access support (if you haven't already). this forum is not an official forum. if you want to help us understanding your problem, prepare a demo project which illustrates your problem.

thanks, marc
access music

[Tiphares]

Well, i was contacting access support about this problems many times. But the answer was always the same:

"The problems I experience are normal, my patches in the demo project are too ressource heavy."

I couldn't belive this, and I'm not sure if every Virus TI owner has those problems, especially because there aren't any major updates. It looks like as if access thinks that the problems with the clicks are already solved.

And that's why i think it is important to hear some other opinions in this forum!

Cheers,
Tiphares

[DigitAl56K]

I completely agree with Tiphares, I got the same message from Access support. My thoughts on the matter go as follows: 1. I am not an idiot. In fact, I am a developer myself. I can tell that sometimes the virus behaves correctly and other times not, and that it's obviously a bug. Afterall, if the DSPs become overloaded the virus should voice-steal cleanly, and most often it does. But when it doesn't it's obvious that there is something wrong. 2. Do Access play their own instruments? I can easily reproduce this issue in a matter of minutes, if not faster. With some patches its as simple as running your fingers up the keyboard. Why do I as a user have to go through the hassle of creating a demo (I play standalone/live, this isn't something that's necessarily easy for me to do), when you can see this issue being widely reported and with just a little effort you could see the issue for yourself? It feels like a blow-off and my expectation is that this issue may never be fixed. Access folks: Don't you think it sucks a bit that I have to tell my friends "Hey, you really ought to consider buying a virus, it's one of the best synths I've ever used, it will beat the pants off of your soft synths... oh but sometimes for no reason you'll get nasty pops while you're playing it." Understood that this is not an official forum btw. Sooo.. when will this page be ready? http://www.access-music.de/community/ ;)

[Pighood]

I hear occasional pops and clicks on the "expensive" patches that rate 5 bars on the TI's display. Too bad...since that's where the lovely wavetabley stuff usually winds up.

[grs]

I had an expensive patch that produced clicks, but those clicks only occured when using USB1.
When I routed all parts to USB2 and USB3.. no clicks.
(also arp wobbles gone)
That was in a VC sequencer mode with 4 or so parts playing.

Maybe the people with the clicky analog projects could try to re-assign to OUT2 and OUT3, just a thought!

[steamyb]

user who discover pops and clicks: please contact access support (if you haven't already). this forum is not an official forum. if you want to help us understanding your problem, prepare a demo project which illustrates your problem.

thanks, marc
access music

Helloooo
I've been in touch with access support numerous times regarding the pops/clicks... I get them in standalone mode via headphones playing in single mode (usually pads.)

Had 2 different virus ti kb's in about 3 years with one of them having the mainboard replaced . .all had pops and clicks still after.

As for blaming CPU hungry patches, it makes the "up to 80 notes polyphony" sales pitch mare than a bit misleading no?

Not good enough Access!!!!!!

I think we should be re-imbersed with TI 2's If this can't be resolved.

Or do these have the same problem?

Steamy

[Tiphares]

Actually, the mainboard of my TI desktop was replaced as well, but unfortunately it didn't change anything.

The question is: Do these clicks occur on EVERY TI?

-If yes, I hope there will be a software update soon to fix the problems.
-If not, I hope access will offer the chance to the users to replace the faulty mainboard (even if the mainboard has already been replaced before).

To be sure about this, i would have to play another TI, but I don't know a shop here in Switzerland where you could do that...

Maybe anybody of you had the opportunity to play different TI's?

[cl516]

uhh I just got a TI.

Mine clicks and pops also. Various patches at times.

One obvious patch on my unit occurs simply when I try to play the resonance cranked up on my filter with keyfollow set to max.
I posted this on another thread.

[Totty]

I'm worried that the TI2 is the TI done right and that it may have more than 25% more power, but it's using this to render voices without artifacts:confused:

Pure speculation on my part admittedly.

[mitchiemasha]

I noticed sometimes the clicking isnt always a dsp thing. simply turning the master output down gets rid of it. turn the gain up on your mixer to compensate.

I do get the other kind of pops & clicks.

[tuf]

I have similar problems with sequencer mode (hold single and multi at the same time).

To test, just place patch A-5 Ti|Bell in the first empty sequencer mode slot (make sure all your other channels in seq mode are set to init).

A-5 plays without crackles in single mode, but in seq mode the crackles are loud and clear.

I've had these sorts of problems with mine since day one, which makes it useless for anything other than single mode, which is how I use it most often.

[Demokid]

Hi,

I'm a new member. I just bought a used Virus Kc in perfect condition. I have the same problem with clicking/popping noise from both headphone/outputs. I have it both in Single/Multimode. It sometimes sounds like a sort of noise gate.
The tone is faded out and after ca one second I can hear a click noise then silence. Sometimes with the synth is in idle I hear the same clicks. I'm running OS 6.5.
This is a major problem for me since I'm going to use it as my live keyboard. :(

Kind regards
Demokid

[cynep]

I posted a rather long-winded rant about this problem on virusti forum a while ago, only to have some rather fanboyish and overzealous board members along with Ben Crossland tell me that the problem was me in no uncertain terms. I was especially disapointed with Ben's blatant denial that problem exists, where as evidence is very clear.

So, yes - I've also experienced it on EVERY TI MK1 - desktop, keyboard, keybard (again), polar and Snow (though on snow, it seemed a lot more well-behaved for some reason, perhaps it's the hard limit of 4 patches and optimized patches).

The last TI I owned - Polar - had even worse problems. Pressing two adjacent keys in a multi arrangement would force stuck keys, I never even used Virus Control because it made playing the synth impossible. Zips, cracks, pops, stuck notes, tons of problems. I even had a system board swapped out in my last polar and still came back with most of them. I finally gave up and dumped it.

On TI 2 I haven't noticed it, which leads me to believe that perhaps the whole reason why TI2 exists is simliar to Windows 7 - it's a bug fix to irreprable problems. Seems like original hardware was crappy, so Virus axed it and released Virus 2 to stop flooding the market with buggy hardware that was bound to tarnish the brand. Smart move, if this is in fact so.

But to address original poster - in my experience with TI2 for the last 24 hours, I'm happy to report that previously noted artifacts seem to be addressed in new hardware, as long as you don't choke the synth with obscene patches. I had 4 "level 5" patches running nicely in a multi without much nonsense.

But... I did notice that ARP was out of sync with the rest on one of the patches. It may be either patch itself, apr pattern or perhaps OS. So far, TI2 seems to be at least better in that area. I won't say it's gone until I've spent enough time with it.

Personally, I'd suggest dumping the original TI while you can and prices are still high.

[ShortBus]

Is a less than 5 bar patch even worth wrighting? I understand polyphany taxing the virus but like you ive also seen note stealing and pops and clicks only using 3-4 timbres some being monophonic, and dont get me wrong I love the virus more than anything but 80 voices at 16 parts is a little of a stretch. If it fixed the problem I would trade my ti 1 plus 500 bucks for a ti2 to Access, (just hinting around).

[umdesch4]

I noticed this problem just last night with a Snow running in Sonar...playing back a 4 part multi sequence and attempting to record it via USB. It was at 4 bar complexity, and not chopping any notes, but I was getting all kinds of clicks and pops.

Then I discovered something interesting. Instead of recording the audio in Sonar, on a lark I fired up Adobe Audition, set my record source to "TI Snow USB", hit record, flipped back to Sonar and played back the sequence. For some strange reason, I suddenly ended up with a clean playback/recording without any artifacts.

I'm suspicious that this has more to do with the USB communication, than something wrong with the audio data being generated in the unit itself.

[Numina]

Hi - I started this thread awhile ago and just checked back... wow, looks like this is indeed a common problem.

I also should say I use my TI in stand alone mode - I only connect the USB port for software updates. So I can say with confidence that the USB connection doesn't have anything to do with these issues.

This evening I sat down and planned to dig deep into the TI and make some new sounds but right off the bat the pads I was working on started popping/clicking. The resource bar was at 3 to 4 and I'd only be playing 4 or 5 notes at a time and the clicks/pops are all over it. I stopped working on it.

I love my TI too, but it's now just plain frustrating. I'm not an expert, but it seems like there ought to be a way to correct this with a software update.

Multi-mode is pretty much useless for me, so all I can do is work in single mode and pray the pops/clicks don't come up during recording.

At least we're all in the same boat.

J.

[Numina]

To be fair, I felt it necessary to follow up here on my pop & click rant and mention some surprising results... After having owned my TI1 for some time now I decided it was time to splurge on a TI|2 Polar as I may be using this for gigging some time soon and wanted not only a smaller synth but a TI with more power.

I spent this morning loading up my old singles and multis and lo and behold I have the SAME EXACT issues as before - i.e. pops and clicks! So, the good news is I do not own a faulty or defective TI1. I am thankful for this. The disappointing news is that I apparently eat up way too much processing power in multimode - it seems to be related to heavy use of reverb although I can't say for sure. I will say that the pops and clicks are less frequent in the TI|2 but not only do I still have these issues, I've had the unit lock up on me already and do some crazy light shows when testing the the Multi-Channel mode setting (the same issues I've experienced on my TI1). So, I guess this is just the way these synths are. Hope I did not offend anyone at Access with my rant - it's still a pain, but I can live with it because IMO the Virus TI is, hands down, the ultimate in atmospheric pads and I couldn't live without it.

Bottom line is, for those of you who do experience pops and clicks, particularly in multimode and using a lot of effect, you likely do NOT have a defective unit. Rather the TI is just limited by the sheer amount of processing going on in complex programs.

I would much prefer running into voice stealing / cutoff notes rather than harsh pops and clicks, but this is just something we're going to have to live with.

J.

[mitchiemasha]

I discovered on my ti some time ago that the pops and clicks are due to my computers cpu been overloaded not my ti. I loaded up a project and filled all 16 ti parts with random patches playing simple loops with nothing else in the project. This clearly overloaded my virus but no pops and clicks. Plenty of voice stealing was going on, as I expected yet not a hint of the snap, crackle and pop.

As I said before the only other crackerling I expierence is digital distortion (I persume) fixed by turning down the master output.

If I get pops and clicks I lighten my vst load (cpu hungry pluggins not my virus) by bouncing tracks to audio.

Try watching your cpu meter in the sequencer for the overload. Although the virus isn't producing these vst sounds and the output of these vst's don't pop and click, It's always when the use of too many of these pumps your computers cpu too high that causes my virus to go all rice crispies.

[Numina]

I use my TI only in stand alone mode so the pops & clicks are not related to any computer issues, unfortunately. - J.

[mitchiemasha]

oh dear!!!