I has a confession. [rant]

[annikk.exe]

I've been holding my tongue because I didn't want to go off-topic, but the vitriol is building and I thought I'd try to expel it in a controlled way, in a thread all of its own.
I hope I do not offend anyone.. :S

But anyway. Here goes.


I hate macs. Hate them.

I hate the very idea of them. I hate Steve Jobs with the pure, burning rage of ages. I hate Apple's products, their marketing strategy, their little catch phrases and the mac fanboys who rave about how amazing their computers are and that they "never crash" and "can't get viruses".

I hate the fact that Apple refuse to adopt many of the global standards that allow different components to work with other components like all other personal computer manufacturers do - paving the way for the manufacturers of dedicated aftermarket components to flourish. I hate the Mac mouse and the ridiculously contrived user interface. I HATE the propensity to put "i" before every single product, as if this somehow makes it more Advanced. iPod, iPhone, iMac, iHate.

I hate their logo and I hate the vomituous "cutesy appeal" Apple tried to use to sell more machines. I hate the stupidity of claiming "it just works" when sites like macfixit.com exist. Most of all, I HATE that several leading effects manufacturers like Lexicon only really support Macs and write drivers for the PC as an afterthought, skimping on features and preventing the use of their product in full to anyone with the audicity to choose PC.

Hate. Hate. HATE.


Ok, I'm done.



-Annikk

[logo80]

I've been holding my tongue because I didn't want to go off-topic, but the vitriol is building and I thought I'd try to expel it in a controlled way, in a thread all of its own.
I hope I do not offend anyone.. :S

But anyway. Here goes.


I hate macs. Hate them.

I hate the very idea of them. I hate Steve Jobs with the pure, burning rage of ages. I hate Apple's products, their marketing strategy, their little catch phrases and the mac fanboys who rave about how amazing their computers are and that they "never crash" and "can't get viruses".

I hate the fact that Apple refuse to adopt many of the global standards that allow different components to work with other components like all other personal computer manufacturers do - paving the way for the manufacturers of dedicated aftermarket components to flourish. I hate the Mac mouse and the ridiculously contrived user interface. I HATE the propensity to put "i" before every single product, as if this somehow makes it more Advanced. iPod, iPhone, iMac, iHate.

I hate their logo and I hate the vomituous "cutesy appeal" Apple tried to use to sell more machines. I hate the stupidity of claiming "it just works" when sites like macfixit.com exist. Most of all, I HATE that several leading effects manufacturers like Lexicon only really support Macs and write drivers for the PC as an afterthought, skimping on features and preventing the use of their product in full to anyone with the audicity to choose PC.

Hate. Hate. HATE.


Ok, I'm done.



-Annikk

the difference between a mac user and a pc user is: a pc user HATE mac users, a mac user can understand the frustration of a pc user so he can't hate him... eheheh I agree that the marketing is awful, but as an ex pc user I simply I won't go back to MS world until they product will work.

[annikk.exe]

What aspect of PCs did you find didn't work?


-Annikk

[LivePsy]

Please hate Mac's if you wish. There's plenty to hate about Macs as well as Windows. There's plenty of hate for everyone to share. And let's hate Linux while we are at it.

Try reading appleinsider.com's review of Windows 7. Perhaps Apple is more standards than you think, and perhaps the OS is better too. I don't know because I'm not you, but there's plenty of hate for everything.

B

[annikk.exe]

Heh. I do realise I am being somewhat irrational. There are worse things to have an irrational hatred of though, I guess. It feels good, oddly attractive, to lay verbal waste to stuff.

On Windows 7, I've seen demos of it but I remain unconvinced. So far it looks just like Vista, but optimised for touch-screens and stealing all the UI ideas from the iphone.



-Annikk

[LivePsy]

Windows 7 appears to be a service pack update of Vista with a new look and name to distance it from the bad reactions to Vista. Read up on appleinsider, there's some thought provoking comments on it. I have both macs and pc's because I would rather install updates than have a life.

Please keep up the irrationality though, I didn't mean to squash creativity with a superior-than-thou post (which mine seems to be on second read) :)

B

[annikk.exe]

Not at all, good sir. You should see what some other Mac users have to say.. They practically create the hatred all on their own from their overenthusiastic holier-than-thou approach. I think Maddox (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant) summarised the situation quite well.. [NOT safe for work]

Also on the updates thing, I currently look after around 30 different computers in total as part of my job, so updates are a big part of my life.. :P


-Annikk

[logo80]

there is an aspect that is wrong in all these kind of argument... mac is a piece of hardware, pc is a piece of hardware, MS is software. So if we want to make comparison we should compare osx to windows and about this comparison I can only tell you that the latest osx version runs on old machines without problems, no crash, no rebootings, no kernel panic of any sort. Why? just cos osx is made for the harware apple produce. Windows is builded to work on any pc and obviously it simply fails like osx would fail if it was built for any pc.
what about hardware? well maybe mac are overpriced but you just don't pay for hardware but for software and its integration too. I don't bother the kind of advertisement made by apple, I just want something that works well and I couldn't find a single pc with windows that can browse internet without any risks and gives me the possibility to record without crashing problems. Something more... I like motu and digital performer... so I can't simply use a pc. If I'd have to use autocad I'll be a pc guy... simply I chose what I need more and what is perfect for my needs.
Regards, Lorenzo

[Splat!]

Did you know, when you go from A to Z, Mac's 'M' comes before PC's 'P'....and Apple's 'A' comes before Microsoft's 'M'. Who woulda thunk? :shock:

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: w00t w00t
________
Marysville Motorcycle Plant (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Marysville_Motorcycle_Plant)

[annikk.exe]

If your PC is crashing, the reason 99% of the time is hardware failure (which happens to Macs too) or incorrect configuration, which doesn't afflict macs as much because they are aimed at people who aren't naturally good at computers. This is both a blessing and a curse - it is harder to get set up a PC correctly, but you can do a lot more with it.. Moreover, you can control _exactly_ which components go into it.

The other 1% of the time is due to bad coding. This hasn't really been an issue since XP launched over 10 years ago, so we can discount that from modern music PCs unless you are using some obscure sequencing software or something..

Viruses and malware on the PC are rife because it is the most popular platform - who wants to write a virus for an operating system hardly anyone uses? But it is ridiculously easy to stay safe online, even if you do opt not to run antivirus software. All it takes is a bit of common sense. The people that get viruses on their computers from opening suspicious .exe attachments in an email they received from an unknown sender and a mysterious mail body containing what appears to be a russian translation of porn fantasy involving snow white and the 7 dwarfs, are probably better off with a Mac anyway..
(not to say that is always the reason - it does sometimes happen and isn't really the users fault, for example if their kid uses the computer..)

My new DAW is proud to run Windows XP. :>


-Annikk

[logo80]

I don't bother what is the cause of the crash... I simply don't want it to crash, and the only way to have a good and stable workstation for now is to use a mac... at least for me. When one day I'll see a stable pc running musical and non musical software at the same time without crashing... well I'll think to buy it... but since I've payed for my digital performer software I don't think that day will be so close.
Anyway if you feel that a pc is good for you keep it! it's not a problem for me and I'm not a priest who whant you to buy a mac. That's for sure. I do what is the best for me, I don't listen to other since my experience lead me to this path. No more pc for me... untill my mac won't work for me anymore.
Regards, Lorenzo

[Timo]

I've never used a Mac, so can't really comment on that aspect, so I'll comment on PCs.

I feel Windows is also just as bad in the cutesy-cutesy graphics department, and Vista's sickeningly cute graphics (particularly the icons) go right off the scale. I'll go as far as saying I really, really dislike Windows' graphics until I've mutilated all the options to make it less cute, otherwise I tend to projectile vomit all over the screen until I've configured things. But once customised, I love it.

Vista is an absolute bloated hog, though. Requires 19GB of disk space for a clean install with SP1 added! Nothing else installed! No word of a lie. I had to increase the partition from 20GB to 30GB during installation just to fit the OS on.

The antivirus aspect, which the Mac brigade occasionally bring up... whereas it may have been an issue in the past (about 10years ago), it's certainly not an issue any longer. With modern PCs, antivirus software uses few clock cycles and 0% CPU in most use, and it only ever scans a file when you access a file on your hard-drive or on the internet. Within an application it doesn't whirr up at all.

The only occasion where deactivating the antivirus has brought any physically or discernably measurable benefit whatsoever for me was in obtaining extremely low ASIO latencies over firewire. With the anti-virus enabled I can manage 10ms latency at 24-bit/44.1KHz. With the anti-virus de-activated, I can go to the lowest figure of 1.5ms without any glitching.

And this is with a firewire based Motu Traveler (yes, even though it's Motu it works beautifully on a PC!), as opposed to a PCI-based audio card.
On a studio PC you shouldn't ideally use the PC for internet anyway, but I'm naughty and have everything installed, even a little hi-spec gaming.

The Norton issue on PCs is funny, though. Those programs that no-one actually needs, yet if installed they oddly run all the time and leech resources. I don't know how Norton are still in business, none of their software is required. I always recommend people to uninstall it if ever Norton shite is bundled with an off-the-shelf PC purchase.

I'll except Norton Ghost (although there are other alternatives to that).

I'll finally add that XP is bomb-proof. I absolutely love working with it. I've not had a single blue screen since building this (my main) computer a year ago, nor on my other PC that's been running for the last 3 or 4 years, both running XP. They've been solid as a rock.

[LivePsy]

Regarding antivirus - Norton is not the same thing as Symantec: the professional endpoint protection is now excellent (although it wasn't a few months ago). Norton on the other hand really slowed me down.

In my opinoin, we want a specific job done with a DAW and a general purpose do-everything OS isn't the right way to get it done. That's why hardware appeals to me, the firmware is written to just do one set of tasks. "it just works" (or doesn't) more than a Mac or PC can.

Timo, bomb-proof is a bit over the top. Code and idiot tolerant sounds more like it to me :)

B

[annikk.exe]

For Internet Security software, I rate Kaspersky pretty highly. It has a number of features that are genuinely useful and simply are not found in other softwares that purportedly do the same job.

For example, Kaspersky will let you see exactly which ports you have open, what traffic your computer has been having (how much, where it was destined or received from, etc), and shows a list of your active connections.

This is very handy for monitoring suspicious looking applications - if they connect to the internet and start doing stuff, you can see which process is creating the connection, the IP address they are connecting to, and how much data they are transmitting.

Kaspersky Lab also release updates more frequently than any other Internet Security Suite. An average of 2-3 updates every day is entirely normal, and the update process happens totally in the background without any user intervention required whatsoever. It's completely transparent and has never interrupted my work, ever. In some cases updates are released at a rate of one per hour. Their tech support department are awesome and every single member of staff I have dealt with has been exceptionally knowledgeable and overly willing to help me fix my problem.

Like many things on PCs, it takes a little bit of work to set it up. Once it is running, you'll never even know it's there. Unless something tries to hax you, of course... then it rears up with a vengeance and allows you to smite would-be attackers with a single mouse click.


-Annikk

[soyuz7]

you should really firewall your outgoing internet connection with a router and aside from that, people get viruses, not the PC. have a separate PC for torrenting, message boarding porning ect and don't take stupid chances opening emails. you have to practically invite a virus onto your pc by visting unsafe sites or opening dangerous files.

the problem with PCs is the users. the difference with macs is they hide or automate everything so the user can't mess it up as easily.

[annikk.exe]

Actually almost all consumer routers don't contain a firewall in the textbook definition; they just translate the open internet into a NAT network, which effectively does the same job as a firewall would. In a lot of them there is even a section in the configuration web page called "Firewall", but this is still not a true firewall.
</geek>



Also, this:
the problem with PCs is the users. the difference with macs is they hide or automate everything so the user can't mess it up as easily.

..is roughly how I feel about the whole thing.


-Annikk

[Engel]

I think people can compare windows & mac os not pc & mac because the difference between pc & mac is too small at this moment. For an example, pc owners can use Hackintosh and mac is powered by intel processor... :rolleyes:

[Alakhai]

I think people can compare windows & mac os not pc & mac because the difference between pc & mac is too small at this moment. For an example, pc owners can use Hackintosh and mac is powered by intel processor... :rolleyes:

right...but pc are much cheaper ;)

[Engel]

Additonally I want to say that I don't think of mac as of more stable computer than pc. There is so many software for pc and almost everyone pc user have to install too many software (simply there isn't so many software available for mac os users) and it's clear that a small part of this pc software works unstable; and there is too many pc users that install unstable software that they don't really need ) So this is the cause of rumours about mac is more stable.

[annikk.exe]

There is a great deal of Bloatware for PCs. I am not sure if it's the same for Macs, but a brand new Dell PC generally takes between 1 and 2 hours to completely clean of all the unnecessary crap.

I'm still not 100% sure why Dell and other manufacturers do this. If I'm buying a computer from a manufacturer I'd be perfectly happy with them simply pre-installing windows. I really don't need 50 free games and some crappy multimedia software that duplicates functions already present in applications that come free with Windows anyway.

I especially don't need a hidden update tool that automatically downloads new bloatware and updates to the existing stuff without my knowledge or consent. Especially not when it tracks and stores usage data and sends it to a mysterious central server.....
AOL and Creative Labs are the worst for this kind of maliciousness.



-Annikk

[LivePsy]

I'm not impressed by the "user experience" new PC's inflict on you either. There was a range of Vaio notebooks a few years ago when Vista was very new, which needed to get updates off the Vaio site but the site crashed Internet Explorer. It was a catch 22: you really needed the updates but your brand new notebook wouldn't download them.

The problem with pop up assistants is the number of times I have seen really important things (Windows updates) get ignored and yet users happily click on the stupidest things. No wait, that should be "stupid users happily click in things".

B

[TheHobbit]

Well I've got both and to be honest I use the PC 99% of the time.

Reasons :

I know Windows.
I have plenty of software for windows which I use and cannot get for Mac
I ended up bootcamping mac with XP ... back to PC
Mac does not have enough driver support for various bits of kit I have
Mac does not have enough driver support when windows is installed.
My PC doesnt crash
My Mac doesnt crash
OSX has a lot of audio features built in
XP has a lot of audio available.
MACS are feking expensive for what they are
PCS are cheaper and easy to maintain
Macs are for egocentric twee people who like things to look pretty (take a look at the general consumer/punter in your local Apple Store - enough said).
Mac users say they can never get a virus cause theyre not wirtten for Macs.
PC users have to use Antivirus due to XP being vunerable and having a registry.
PCS users know when their PCs being hacked/trojan cause their antivirus tells them....
Mac users think its amazing when their mouse does things on their own and takes money from their bank accounts when doing online banking.
MAC has very poor VST plugin support or availibility more choice on PC.
My mrs can find my pron on the mac...
My mrs cant find my pron on the PC.

Apart from that...not much in it really!

[LivePsy]

Smugness - the most irritating part of the zealotry. Any straight out lie can be carried out elegantly with the right amount of smugness.

VST support - I am warming to Apple's approach that they darn well wrote the OS, so they are going to darn well write the audio plugin standard too. Forget everything you know, get Logic Studio and see how well plugins can be handled. If a plugin writer won't write an AU version of your favourite thing, they probably aren't writing good quality code either. Too much bedroom code and free VST's out there in the PC world. Also forget WAV files because you can only use it on a Mac so might as well go for AIFF :)

Personally, my income comes from using PC's and fixing problems caused by humans on PCs. In fact I never see or use another's computer if it doesn't have a problem. So I would rather have a Mac to persue my hobby thank you.

B

[teethofgold]

There is a great deal of Bloatware for PCs. I am not sure if it's the same for Macs, but a brand new Dell PC generally takes between 1 and 2 hours to completely clean of all the unnecessary crap.

I'm still not 100% sure why Dell and other manufacturers do this. If I'm buying a computer from a manufacturer I'd be perfectly happy with them simply pre-installing windows. I really don't need 50 free games and some crappy multimedia software that duplicates functions already present in applications that come free with Windows anyway.

I especially don't need a hidden update tool that automatically downloads new bloatware and updates to the existing stuff without my knowledge or consent. Especially not when it tracks and stores usage data and sends it to a mysterious central server.....
AOL and Creative Labs are the worst for this kind of maliciousness.



-Annikk

the reasons they include this software is that they get a kickback from the company if you upgrade to the full version.

[teethofgold]

regarding this entire thread... PCs are great for people who want to f*ck around with their computers as a part of their music making experience. me? I f*ck with computers and software all day... so when I want to make music... I want my computer to be transparent and focus on making the sounds. this works well for me on my mac.

your mileage may vary... but good luck driving a PC if you're not a mechanic!

[Berni]

its easy to hate...harder to love...
Can anybody get the RTAS VC OS3 working reliably on any platform?

[7G]

Well, things are simple....

Get yourself a PC desktop and a Mac Laptop to have the best of both worlds...
Why's that?

Desktops:

PC:If i want to upgarde my desktop i would change only motherboard,proccesor and memory.
Mac:You have to sell the godamn thing

Laptops:

PC:The issue here is built quality.Most PC laptops have shitty quality
Mac:Excellent quality and design-i really like the lightning apple on a dark club...you f#$%g poser..hehehe:)

[annikk.exe]

To be fair, +1 on that.
I don't buy laptops because I hate Macs and it's excessively difficult to build your own (PC-based) laptop.

I r mechanic. =)


-Annikk

[JordanNaumov]

the difference between a mac user and a pc user is: a pc user HATE mac users, a mac user can understand the frustration of a pc user so he can't hate him... eheheh I agree that the marketing is awful, but as an ex pc user I simply I won't go back to MS world until they product will work.

Couldn't of said it better......

[LivePsy]

Laptops:

PC:The issue here is built quality.Most PC laptops have shitty quality
Mac:Excellent quality and design-i really like the lightning apple on a dark club...you f#$%g poser..hehehe:)

I agree with the Mac comments. Poser or not, I bought a Macbook Pro not a Mac if you know what I mean. The notebooks are built and perform very well. I didn't buy it for the OS.

How many posers cover the Apple logo with gaffa tape? And how many posers cover a Roland logo with gaffa tape? Yeah, you're right, its embarassing to be seen with a Roland ;)

Cheers,
B

[XLR8A]

The only people in this thread who completely missing the point, are the ones who still can't understand why couple of years ago "PC vs Mac" arguments became more irrelevant and pointless than ever before. Hint: It's not "Apples vs Oranges" anymore, it's "Oranges vs Oranges" now.

[teethofgold]

The only people in this thread who completely missing the point, are the ones who still can't understand why couple of years ago "PC vs Mac" arguments became more irrelevant and pointless than ever before. Hint: It's not "Apples vs Oranges" anymore, it's "Oranges vs Oranges" now.

that's not true... as one is an integrated platform (hardware/software) and the other is software that is meant to run on a million hardware configurations.

with apple you pay a premium for a more streamlined user experience and increased reliability... with PCs you are able to take advantage of a highly competitive market to get excellent prices and magnitudes more software choices... but there are drawbacks as well... such as conflicts, viruses, and general complexity in the system.

[hdruxpin]

Hey Annik. If you hate the fact you cant build a Mac how you want it, or teak it................ thats not true.

I love my Hackintosh. Dual boots windows 7, and OSX 10.5.7
And I can overclock, watercool, bla bla bla. Does everything I want. The problem is ME

It is ME, that always wants something new (Gear Lust), it is ME that spends so much money, but not enough time. I dont write enough music, just cant spend more than 30 mins without getting bored lately.

Fuck this I hate MAC, or I hate PC. I HATE ME !

[XLR8A]

that's not true... as one is an integrated platform (hardware/software) and the other is software that is meant to run on a million hardware configurations.

with apple you pay a premium for a more streamlined user experience and increased reliability... with PCs you are able to take advantage of a highly competitive market to get excellent prices and magnitudes more software choices... but there are drawbacks as well... such as conflicts, viruses, and general complexity in the system.
There's no integrated platform bullshit or anything, because this is not OS9 anymore this is Unix. Today you can run Win on a Mac as easily as you can run OSX on a PC, technically Apple just selling you regular PC's with a shiny Apple logo on them. If you open your "Mac" to take a look if i'm right or wrong - you'll be very disappointed to find regular average PC components inside, and not of the best quality btw (except two models only: Mac Pro and MacBook Pro) because they're the only ones that built from PC components slightly above the average. Shortly, Apple selling ridiculously overpriced PC computers and people are afraid to realize this because of how embarrassing it is for a mac zealot to find out something like this. Some Mac users have already figured this out, so now they're embarrassed to admit it or even believe what they saw. This is amazingly hilarious, and the funniest thing that there's nothing really new about this and it's been like that for couple of years already.

[LivePsy]

This is amazingly hilarious, and the funniest thing that there's nothing really new about this and it's been like that for couple of years already.

Yes very funny. Unfortunately for me, I viewed the Macbook Pro as the best hardware platform out there - not on price but on a mix of features (the utilmate spec for every component isn't always the best). And while I was at it I also chose to use OS X for music in the studio instead of XP and Vista around the rest of the house. So of course I am branded as an idiot and constantly laughed at.

Its not quite as black and white as pc=smart, Mac=stupid. The price is an interesting issue. All PC's would be priced around Mac prices if it wasn't for the intense competition. But this competition doesn't give you cheaper computers, they give you less and pretend its a workable computer. Not enough ram, you've-got-to-be-kidding low notebook cpu power, machines which take 10 minutes to boot. You really have to spend close to a macbook pro to get sensible power. Personally the only notebook to have these days is the latest Vaio GW series, second choise could be Macbook Pro. IMO all others are crippled to a price point.

Oops, got a bit more carried away then I expected.

B

[Timo]

Personally the only notebook to have these days is the latest Vaio GW series

Vaio FW? Bought one and sent it back. Fantastic computer, cool, quiet, very fast, but I didn't get on with the display (for graphic editing). It was the 720p "eco" display, though. Could've got it with the better display but the resolution would've been way too high for me. A very plastic-y notebook, though. The power cord connection didn't inspire confidence.

Oops, got a bit more carried away then I expected.

No, it's all interesting. After sending the Vaio back, I was looking at the Macbook Pros. Very expensive though, and would prefer a matte screen (which they don't offer, unless you get the 17" model).

Another thing I disliked about the Vaio was the new 16:9 LCD display ratio that laptop manufacturers are using now. Too wide, and too short. Apparently 16:10 is being completed phased out this next year. http://infekted.org/virus/images/icons/icon8.gif

[XLR8A]

Yes very funny. Unfortunately for me, I viewed the Macbook Pro as the best hardware platform out there - not on price but on a mix of features (the utilmate spec for every component isn't always the best). And while I was at it I also chose to use OS X for music in the studio instead of XP and Vista around the rest of the house. So of course I am branded as an idiot and constantly laughed at.B

MacBook Pro is quite good actually, imho it's one of the best laptops on the market right now, alongside with IBM ThinkPads that i also rate quite highly because of how badass they are in basically every aspect. I also chose OSX for anything music and graphic design related, it's much more superior and user friendly than what Microsoft has to offer at the moment. Does it means I'm also an idiot?

Its not quite as black and white as pc=smart, Mac=stupid. The price is an interesting issue. All PC's would be priced around Mac prices if it wasn't for the intense competition. But this competition doesn't give you cheaper computers, they give you less and pretend its a workable computer. Not enough ram, you've-got-to-be-kidding low notebook cpu power, machines which take 10 minutes to boot. You really have to spend close to a macbook pro to get sensible power. Personally the only notebook to have these days is the latest Vaio GW series, second choise could be Macbook Pro. IMO all others are crippled to a price point.

Oops, got a bit more carried away then I expected.

Bhttp://xore.ca/missingthepoint.png

Of course if you'll bother reading my previous post you'll immediately find out that i said: "the only exceptions are MacBook Pro and Mac Pro", all their other computers are a waste of money. If you ever opened a Mac, you could see that most macs are built from very cheap low-grade components, the complete opposite to what macfans tend to blindly believe. I remember seeing an iMac with one of the shittiest intel mobos inside, if i build my own computer i would never use this mobo in my machine as long as there are so many better alternatives. Totally agree with Timo regarding matte screens, can't stand those glossy screens tbh, especially in my office environment.

Seriously, I find it quite hard to believe that Mac fanboys still can't accept the fact that Apple has started manufacturing regular PC's couple of years ago. They can't be serious, it's surely a pisstake.


P.S. This post may look a little bit messy and disorientated because I'm very drunk at the moment, sorry for inconvenience.

[LivePsy]

Vaio FW?

Sorry, meant AW as in AW37. No one can afford it, but it has everything you need :)

[LivePsy]

Hi XLR8R, I knew I wasn't disagreeing with you about Mac and Macbook Pro but you did kind of class you and me as a mindless fanboys for having them :)

My point (wherever that may be) is that buying PC hardware because it is cheaper is not smarter unless you know what you are getting. Walking along aisles of notebooks and comparing them is not choice, they all sacrifice quality to stay cheap.

Also saying you can run Mac on any old PC hardware is fine IF you want to the risk - it is after all not supported.

B

[Celestry]

OK, I'm an MS Windows technical specialist, working tirelessly all day long on badly configured systems that project teams of vast experience hand over to vastly experienced support teams! I configure, patch, troubleshoot, all the days long. However, most of this is applications based investigation work, not OS failure, which is still rather too frequent.

My point? (^_^) I leave work, get off home, and turn on my Macbook Pro, and thank the Apple Tree it's so piss easy to do whatever I need to do. If something goes wrong, I can't even be bothered troubleshooting; I just restart Logic. (Logic crashes sometimes when the Virus does weird stuff!) The UNIX kernel can be fully explored with the tools provided in MAC OSX, but I can't be bothered. If I want to get technical with the MAC OSX, I could, but that's not why I bought it. I just couldn't be bothered with Windows at home any longer. For me, it's just so refreshing to get on the MAC after a day of Windows.

I wonder how many I.T. guys are on here that use MACs for music because they can't be bothered with Windows at home? And those that aren't in I.T. I completely understand the use of Windows at home, because Windows provides a very engaging learning experience, there's so much to understand if you're even the least bit technically minded. You find yourself learning more and more about the OS, as well as wanting to upgrade hardware, etc.

Computers are dead good, aren't they? (^_^)

[teethofgold]

celestry, you hit it spot on!

[XLR8A]

Hi XLR8R, I knew I wasn't disagreeing with you about Mac and Macbook Pro but you did kind of class you and me as a mindless fanboys for having them :)
Once again you're missing the point, reading my posts would be a good idea for a start, in order to avoid this sort of misunderstandings in the future. And BTW, i don't have either Mac Pro or Macbook Pro, i'm using a custom made Quad Core workstation running OSX. And from the results of the tests i've made earlier this year, it significantly outperforms basically any Mac on the market except the 8 Core Mac Pro.

My point (wherever that may be) is that buying PC hardware because it is cheaper is not smarter unless you know what you are getting. Walking along aisles of notebooks and comparing them is not choice, they all sacrifice quality to stay cheap.
Buying anything isn't smart if you don't know what you're getting, doesn't matters if you do it because it's cheaper or for any other reason. Like buying and iMac only because it's more expensive (and supposedly must be of a higher quality) but without knowing the tech specs, especially the most interesting tech specs Apple doesn't wants you to find out in order to avoid disappointing you.

Also saying you can run Mac on any old PC hardware is fine IF you want to the risk - it is after all not supported.
Did I really said old PC hardware did I? This is interesting. Can you please explain to me, what risk am I taking at running OSX on my PC as smooth as it runs right now for over a year without any noticeable problems at all?

UNIX and BSD Kernel isn't something Apple invented specifically for their computers, it fully supports a wide range of hardware including even AMD processors that it's not "suppose" to run on. The fact that OSX isn't officially supported by Apple on non Apple computers, doesn't means it cannot run on non Apple computers as smooth as it runs on Apple ones, and fully support the hardware that UNIX was originally meant to support long time before Apple even thought about starting using it in their operating systems.

[LivePsy]

I wonder how many I.T. guys are on here that use MACs for music because they can't be bothered with Windows at home?

That would be me too. I also think that Windows is a great environment for the person who wants an intellectual challenge, well let's be honest, the smart-arse who likes to show off how smart they are to everyone. Computers were made to do things. Computer misfunction is not interesting in the least. Its disappointing to see so much discussion on these forums about how the computer doesn't work. Too much like work to me and as I find in my business, too much focus on problems and not enough on solutions.

Everyone should have the opportunity to try OS X as an operating system, and in an unbiased way. Give it a change, you might like it.

Cheers,
B

[LivePsy]

Can you please explain to me, what risk am I taking at running OSX on my PC as smooth as it runs right now for over a year without any noticeable problems at all?

UNIX and BSD Kernel isn't something Apple invented specifically for their computers, it fully supports a wide range of hardware including even AMD processors that it's not "suppose" to run on. The fact that OSX isn't officially supported by Apple on non Apple computers, doesn't means it cannot run on non Apple computers as smooth as it runs on Apple ones, and fully support the hardware that UNIX was originally meant to support long time before Apple even thought about starting using it in their operating systems.

You're really trying to argue for the sake of argument now. By all means use OS X hacked for your PC. But also please don't tell everyone they should too. As my previous post immediately above suggests, tinkering with computers is not really a useful endeavour. Using them to do something creative is far more interesting.

Cheers,
B

[XLR8A]

You're really trying to argue for the sake of argument now. By all means use OS X hacked for your PC. But also please don't tell everyone they should too. As my previous post immediately above suggests, tinkering with computers is not really a useful endeavour. Using them to do something creative is far more interesting.

Cheers,
B
I'm only asking you what risk am I taking at running OSX on my PC as smooth as it runs right now for over a year without any noticeable problems at all. You said it takes some risk, and i'm curious what risk you're talking about, i'm intrigued.

Btw, i don't use a hacked OSX. I installed it from original retail CD that i paid for, and then updated to the latest version via software update. Exactly like people install XP or Vista on their Macs via Bootcamp.

I love OSX, it enhances my workflow and creativity, so instead of tinkering with computers i can concentrate more on my work.

[XLR8A]

Computer misfunction is not interesting in the least. Its disappointing to see so much discussion on these forums about how the computer doesn't work.If that was the case, huge forums such as macfixit wouldn't exist. Have you seen what's going on those forums? It's a shitstorm of technical problems of all sorts, and people complain all the time about Apple support forum deleting their posts and banning users. The amount of problems people having with Macbooks is beyond ridiculous.

[LivePsy]

I'm only asking you what risk am I taking at running OSX on my PC as smooth as it runs right now for over a year without any noticeable problems at all. You said it takes some risk, and i'm curious what risk you're talking about, i'm intrigued.

You are not permitted to install OSX on non-Apple hardware. You cannot get helpdesk support from your hardware supplier or Apple if you strike any problems. The 'risk' is that if you have a problem you have no recourse except to complain on the Innernet. Most likely this gets posted as 'all Macs suck' because the poster didn't mention the tiny fact that they did what was never intended. Installing OS X used to be impossible, and then some guys worked out tricks to get it to work. Its a trick, nothing more. If the trick works for you then great. In the same way, you can install a thousand variants of Linux. Great. Bet you don't really do anything useful on the Linux box though (music wise).

I consider buying a computer to be a package of hardware and software in which the manufacturer offers some support on both. In the case of Apple you have support for the hardware, OS and the DAW if you use Logic Studio.

OK, you are right. You can install OS X on a PC. But I question the value in doing it. I consider professional support of value, especially if you are making money out of your computer. I'm also wary of being sucked into the computer technology as an end in itself. I've met many IT people who are obsessed with the game, whereas I think the aim of IT is just to get things to work.

Cheers,
B

[LivePsy]

If that was the case, huge forums such as macfixit wouldn't exist. Have you seen what's going on those forums? It's a shitstorm of technical problems of all sorts, and people complain all the time about Apple support forum deleting their posts and banning users. The amount of problems people having with Macbooks is beyond ridiculous.

I was alarmed with the problems of the graphics on the macbooks, and if I can criticise Apple at all its the far too frequent refreshes and obviously not enough testing first. Also, the 10.5.7 update killed my M3 USB connection just when I was about to record some stuff. Most annoying. Worst of all is I bought my macbook pro 1 year after 10.5 and then realised that the audio interface and TI still didn't have the drivers for another few months. Now THAT was annoying :)

But I do think that forums shouldn't be a gauge of real life experiences. Learn to work around these problems. Have disk image backups and make them frequently. Have a backup plan in case one particular piece of hardware gear isn't working. Have an old PC around so you can use that if nothing else works. Protect yourself from being totally stuffed with a problem. This is a positive strategy, whereas complaints on forums are well, complaints...

Cheers,
B

[XLR8A]

You are not permitted to install OSX on non-Apple hardware. You cannot get helpdesk support from your hardware supplier or Apple if you strike any problems. The 'risk' is that if you have a problem you have no recourse except to complain on the Innernet. Most likely this gets posted as 'all Macs suck' because the poster didn't mention the tiny fact that they did what was never intended.
At the moment, installing OSX on a PC is not illegal exactly as much as it's not legal, because Apple EULA ≠ the law. Helpdesk? Why would i waste my time on something like this? Regarding warranty and support, the biggest difference here is when you purchase a computer from Apple you get 1 year limited warranty with it, and i got 3 years warranty for my Asus motherboard, 5 years warranty for Seagate hard drives, and unlimited warranty for the Intel CPU. Doesn't matters what OS i'm using, it doesn't affects the warranty for my hardware in any shape or form. And as long as it's under warranty, in case i have a faulty hardware device i can always send it to where i bought it and get a replacement. This is the only support i need, and i have it.
Installing OS X used to be impossible, and then some guys worked out tricks to get it to work. Its a trick, nothing more. If the trick works for you then great.
It's exactly the same trick as the guys at Apple "worked out" how to install Vista or XP on their Macs. Same trick, nothing more nothing less. Technically speaking: in order to install Win on a Mac you have to run BIOS emulation, and in order to install OSX on a PC you have to run EFI emulation.

I consider buying a computer to be a package of hardware and software in which the manufacturer offers some support on both. In the case of Apple you have support for the hardware, OS and the DAW if you use Logic Studio.You're talking about the kind of support people getting when purchasing brand name computers like IBM, Dell, Apple, Compaq, HP, etc... I have no need in this kind of support because i've been using computers for long enough to learn using them properly. So in my case, the disadvantages of using a brand name computer are much greater than the advantages, also because i prefer a fully customized pro-level system that's built by the highest standards using the latest technologies, instead of the average-level overpriced products the companies mentioned above have to offer. Speaking of prices, even if brand name computers were cheaper than custom made ones, i'd still prefer custom made without thinking twice. Especially when it goes for a music production studio where customization is essential in order to get the most out of your setup.

OK, you are right. You can install OS X on a PC. But I question the value in doing it. I consider professional support of value, especially if you are making money out of your computer. I'm also wary of being sucked into the computer technology as an end in itself. I've met many IT people who are obsessed with the game, whereas I think the aim of IT is just to get things to work.The question is how do you value Apple support, how much are you ready to pay for it, how much do you think it's worth, and how much would be enough to say: "no thanks. this is a blatant rip off, get out of my face with this shit". I can't remember when was the last time i needed such support, before OSX became available for PC i used Macs for many years and never had the need for the support they offer. Basically this support is aimed at n00bs who aren't able to work out simple technical problems when they occur. But imho, people who don't know using computers shouldn't be using one, simple. This applies to both PC and Mac users.

[LivePsy]

Either my post resonated with you, or it didn't.

I am a pragmatic kind of person who wants a computer to do something useful. XLR8R, you really are too centered on the computer technology, whereas I think the focus should be on the DAW software and the music itself rather than the hardware and OS underneath it. I could be obsessed with the technology but I choose not to be. Like you, I understand a great deal about the technologies. I just don't think its a worthwhile end in itself.

Theres's no point scoring to be gained here.

Cheers,
B

[XLR8A]

I become centered on computer technology only at the moment of purchase when i need a stable reliable and powerful computer for my studio, but i'm not one of those people who obsessed with upgrading all the time and messing with computers in general. Maybe that's why i prefer OSX over Windows, OSX lets me concentrate on the music and get more things done in less mouse clicks. And maybe that's why i never tried making music on Linux, it's a masochism of the highest order imho.

[LivePsy]

AppleInsiders industry comments (Mac vs Windows) are usually good. This is is a good call on the current state of them-

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/06/09/snow_leopard_gets_richer_thinner_cheaper_than_windows_7.html

I miss the age of tech innocence where nothing got updated, in fact it never needed to be updated. It did what the manufacturer designed. OK, things weren't as complicated back in the day, I'm referring to 80s and 90s digital synths, samplers and midi sequencers. But we've lost a sense of permanence and I suspect there is some plain old lazy coding because it can all now be fixed in an update.

I'd exclude the TI though, because its an extremely ambitious target trying to work with constantly moving OS's and DAW software. The synth part of the TI has been very good for some time. OS's however are a treadmill of updates, compatiblity mismatches and bugs being deliberately unnoticed by the coders. We're all dragged into something we didn't sign up for when we bought a computer.

B

[Timo]

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/06/09/snow_leopard_gets_richer_thinner_cheaper_than_windows_7.html

Seems to me that Apple are rattled by Windows 7, and want as many people to join the Mac platform bandwagon before Win7 is formally released.

I was looking at WWDC this year (Apple's yearly convention) with regards to getting a macbook pro, but touchscreen OLEDs and Intel's new Nehalem architecture are waiting in the wings chez Apple, probably Christmas time. Think I may wait until then.

But there's quite a big difference between the two companies and their products.

Apple's success is their platform tied in with their hardware.
Microsoft's success is the fact their platform can work with every bit of PC hardware, but Microsoft in contrast to Apple don't dedicated PC hardware of their own. Microsoft's OS is 'open' in that way.

When it comes down to it, they're catering for two completely different areas of the market, so the execution of their products is also very different.

[LivePsy]

Timo, if you were an OS developer, which would you prefer: to own the hardware and write the OS to integrate with it, or write the OS and leave the hardware to someone else? I dunno which is better.

Personally, I'm surprised (but pleased) that Apple are still around. I also really like that OS X and Logic Studio don't require activation to run. I'm free to install on my hardware without concern that the software only runs if the manufacturer permits it. Virtualised Windows is a great idea because the image is portable. I use XP on the Mac inside Parallels so I can use Sound Forge along side Logic. It works quite well and I can always restore a backup of the virtualised image if I wish. I feel that is much safer than finding out that Microsoft, Sound Forge or Ableton Live don't want to activate on the PC. The difference is slim between software you rely on and dead files taking up disk space.

Cheers,
B

[XLR8A]

if you were an OS developer, which would you prefer: to own the hardware and write the OS to integrate with it, or write the OS and leave the hardware to someone else? I dunno which is better.Does Apple designs and manufactures the hardware used in todays Macs? Did it wrote it's current OS from scratch or it's a modified version of Unix? Does it even writes the drivers for 99% of Mac compatible hardware? Microsoft, on the other hand...

[LivePsy]

For Internet Security software, I rate Kaspersky pretty highly. It has a number of features that are genuinely useful and simply are not found in other softwares that purportedly do the same job.

For example, Kaspersky will let you see exactly which ports you have open, what traffic your computer has been having (how much, where it was destined or received from, etc), and shows a list of your active connections.

This is very handy for monitoring suspicious looking applications - if they connect to the internet and start doing stuff, you can see which process is creating the connection, the IP address they are connecting to, and how much data they are transmitting.

Kaspersky Lab also release updates more frequently than any other Internet Security Suite. An average of 2-3 updates every day is entirely normal, and the update process happens totally in the background without any user intervention required whatsoever. It's completely transparent and has never interrupted my work, ever. In some cases updates are released at a rate of one per hour. Their tech support department are awesome and every single member of staff I have dealt with has been exceptionally knowledgeable and overly willing to help me fix my problem.

Like many things on PCs, it takes a little bit of work to set it up. Once it is running, you'll never even know it's there. Unless something tries to hax you, of course... then it rears up with a vengeance and allows you to smite would-be attackers with a single mouse click.


-Annikk

Its been a long time since you said that, but yesterday I installed Kaspersky for File Server on a SBS2003 server to finally get rid of a Trojan which Symantec Endpoint Protection didn't know about. I had previously gotten lots of cleaned up viruses every day but the source of it all went unnoticed. Thumbs down SEP, and thumbs up Kaspersky.

B