Marc/Access - I'm calling you out. We want answers!

[plaid_emu]

I know it's been said before but all I want is reliable timing with the arps and envelopes using Virus Control... I can't believe that this is still an issue - hrmmm It's doing my head in!

i don't think there is any type of timing problem as long as the rest of your system is okay. can you be a little bit more specific?

So are you denying there is a timing problem in Virus Control or are you trying to say you're unaware of it? C'mon mang! This has been discussed many times right here on this forum:

http://www.infekted.org/virus/showthread.php?t=29383
http://www.infekted.org/virus/showthread.php?t=30343

I doubt that ALL of us are doing something wrong. I'm 99.5% sure this is a software or hardware issue and not a user error.

Marc, I know I'm coming off like a total asshole and I'm sorry I was so abrasive in the "ti2 desktop just arrived" (http://www.infekted.org/virus/showthread.php?t=30495) thread, but let's please get to the bottom of this timing issue, once and for all.

To sum up my feelings about this whole debacle, I'm going to let you in on a PM interaction I had with someone on gearslutz.com forums:

are you selling your virus desktop to get the new one? lol if u are, im thinkin bout the same thing

The jury is still out on that one. I'm really kind of pissed that Access hasn't fixed the timing/quantization issues in the Virus Control plug-in. Then when I heard they were charging for the rack ears, I was ready to just sell my Virus and never buy another Access product, ever again. The problem is, I can't think of any synth that will be good enough to replace it! Can you? It's so frustrating because I really want the thing to work. It sounds so amazing and the integration concept is beautiful (aside from the timing glitch). I guess I'm going to sell, maybe I'll get a TI2, maybe I'll find something else. I'm still waiting to hear from new TI2 owners if it works properly. If it DOES work, maybe I'll bite.

[lukas412]

I have zero timing issues with the ti in live 7. Haven't had any since 2.7.3

Luke

[plaid_emu]

I'm using Live 7 too. It's not an issue with every patch but most of the arp patches and some of the more complex sounds, it's all over the place.

My system is:

MacMini (2.33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 7200 RPM HD, 2 GB RAM)
RME Fireface 400
NO USB hub. I'm running it directly into the Mac with a pricey Monster Cable U-Link 500 USB 2.0 (480mbps) cable.

I've tried using the main outputs instead of the USB audio. No change. Tried adjusting latency and buffer settings over, and over, and over. No change. All my other plug-ins and synths sync to MIDI clock just fine. The ONLY way I can get the Virus to sync 100% of the time is to disconnect the USB and use it as a stand-alone MIDI module.

[Talos]

I'm don't know for sure, but it sounds like the cable is your problem, how long is said cable?

I had problems with the original USB cable and had to replace it twice to get it reliable. I have heard of other users not being able to use the provided cable also.

[brambos]

So are you denying there is a timing problem in Virus Control or are you trying to say you're unaware of it? C'mon mang! This has been discussed many times right here on this forum:

http://www.infekted.org/virus/showthread.php?t=29383
http://www.infekted.org/virus/showthread.php?t=30343

I doubt that ALL of us are doing something wrong. I'm 99.5% sure this is a software or hardware issue and not a user error.

Regardless of whether the issue is a user/software/hardware issue and if it applies to everyone in all situations, I don't think this is the place nor the way to get problems like this resolved.

For all we know, Marc is just on this forum on a voluntary basis, maybe not as an official representative of Access Music. I think it's awesome that an insider from access is active on this board at all - but as far as I can tell Marc is not part of their support department.

Access' official support crew are known to be very helpfull, responsive and customer friendly (more than most in the business). I would take it up with them if I were you/us.

Just my 2 cents on this.

[lukas412]

I'm using Live 7 too. It's not an issue with every patch but most of the arp patches and some of the more complex sounds, it's all over the place.

My system is:

MacMini (2.33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 7200 RPM HD, 2 GB RAM)
RME Fireface 400
NO USB hub. I'm running it directly into the Mac with a pricey Monster Cable U-Link 500 USB 2.0 (480mbps) cable.

I've tried using the main outputs instead of the USB audio. No change. Tried adjusting latency and buffer settings over, and over, and over. No change. All my other plug-ins and synths sync to MIDI clock just fine. The ONLY way I can get the Virus to sync 100% of the time is to disconnect the USB and use it as a stand-alone MIDI module.

If you want to send me a live set I can give it a try. I'm on a completely different setup than you so its worth a shot I suppose. I have two daws, and I haven't had timing issues on either one.

Old 2ghz single core athlon, hammerfall 1
2.4c2d laptop

Luke

[marc]

So are you denying there is a timing problem in Virus Control or are you trying to say you're unaware of it? C'mon mang! This has been discussed many times right here on this forum:

http://www.infekted.org/virus/showthread.php?t=29383
http://www.infekted.org/virus/showthread.php?t=30343

I doubt that ALL of us are doing something wrong. I'm 99.5% sure this is a software or hardware issue and not a user error.

Marc, I know I'm coming off like a total asshole and I'm sorry I was so abrasive in the "ti2 desktop just arrived" thread, but let's please get to the bottom of this timing issue, once and for all.

To sum up my feelings about this whole debacle, I'm going to let you in on a PM interaction I had with someone on gearslutz.com forums:


if i would believe everything i read on this forum, i probably would sell my TI and dedicate my life to pottery ;)

see, it appears that in both threads people talk about loads of different stuff. you talk about virus control, in the second thread for instance i can see the word MIDI far to often to believe that would be a good comparison.

that's why i was asking for more specific infos.

marc

[Totty]

Probably not the best way to ask for a hand.

I can help test if it's Logic, but I've only got a Live Demo. Pottery is actually very therapeutic! But it's no substitute for a virus;-)

[Ceri JC]

I have zero timing issues with the ti in live 7. Haven't had any since 2.7.3

Luke

Ditto. I'm running 2.7.5 in Live 7 on an 1.6GHz EEEPC with 1GB RAM. Works flawlessly.

[Totty]

Ditto. I'm running 2.7.5 in Live 7 on an 1.6GHz EEEPC with 1GB RAM. Works flawlessly.

You are running a Snow for a start. So you cannot run more than 4 parts.
One of my theories is:
1 DSP - 4 parts
2 DSP - 16 parts

Thats quite alot more for the TI to do isn't it..

[synthfiend]

my 2 cents

once I installed VC on my new HP laptop (Intel Core2Duo T9400 @ 2.53GHz, 4 Gig RAM) and made sure the audio was coming out USB and that the Live button was not depressed for playback I had no sync problems.

I suspect VC is a little more dependant on the host PCs performance than I originally thought.

PS: turn off virus scan and other unecessary programs when using vc

[Dead Geoff]

Don't fuss if I am wrong - but it seems like the person who is having the issue is running on a Mac versus everyone else who says there is no sync issues - running PCs?

It is possible that Mac's USB 2.0 is slower than PC's 2.0

Plausible??

(I am running a Mac and am encountering latency issues as well.)

[Splat!]

Virus TI Snow running 2.7.5 (Tested 3.0) through Ableton 7.0.14 on a Mac Leopard 10.5.6 and I have no such issue. Some latency with over 7 USB synths and units connected. But nothing major.
And I use arps and all sorts of delay sync'd stuff. :cool:
________
aromed vaporizer (http://www.vaporshop.com/aromed-vaporizer.html)

[Dead Geoff]

My theory is dead. :)

Btw, what do your buffer settings look like?

[Splat!]

512 Samples

...and my fingers include 'Latency' Compensation :rolleyes:
________
buy silversurfer vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/silver-surfer)

[plaid_emu]

Regardless of whether the issue is a user/software/hardware issue and if it applies to everyone in all situations, I don't think this is the place nor the way to get problems like this resolved. Ummmm, this is an Access Virus FORUM, is it not? :confused:

For all we know, Marc is just on this forum on a voluntary basis, maybe not as an official representative of Access Music. I think it's awesome that an insider from access is active on this board at all - but as far as I can tell Marc is not part of their support department. I agree 100%.

The reason I "called him out" publicly was this reply: i don't think there is any type of timing problem as long as the rest of your system is okay. can you be a little bit more specific? I just had a hard time believing he hasn't seen all the comments from frustrated TI owners who had fully functioning systems that are otherwise "okay". Many are right here on this very forum, but there are also several other forums where the same/similar problems have been discussed: http://logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=90136
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/239153-virus-snow-apogee-duet-setup.html

Access' official support crew are known to be very helpfull, responsive and customer friendly (more than most in the business). I would take it up with them if I were you/us.

I'm wondering what they can tell me that dozens of experienced users haven't already documented on the web? Often times they post the exact reply from the Access support team on the same topic. I've even read one from somebody who was running a damn near identical system as mine having the same problem I described. It didn't help.

Probably not the best way to ask for a hand. You're probably right. I was too brash and I apologized earlier for being a dick. I'm just trying to get a straight answer once and for all. Not only for me, but for everyone having this issue. I was tired of troubleshooting and researching this problem for the past six months because I love the Virus, and I want to love Access.

Now let us move forward to the interesting part, you're going to want to keep reading:

I'm don't know for sure, but it sounds like the cable is your problem, how long is said cable?

I thought this might be the case. I've tried swapping it out. That wasn't the problem.

That's right. I used the term wasn't as in past tense because since Friday afternoon it seems to be working perfectly! :shock: :confused: :D After Marc asked for specifics and lukas412 & Totty offered their help (thanks guys!:D ), I immediately got working to record some audio examples and also send you guys a Live project. I could not for the life of me get it to go out of sync, and I've already been trying this with OS 3.0 since it was released, so I know it wasn't just the upgrade.

It was such a strange scene. I was so ecstatic that it was working properly, yet at the same time I was so pissed that I couldn't recreate the problem!!! :D I've been messing with it quite a bit before posting this.

There must be an incorrect setting or configuration or something, somewhere that was causing this. I don't know if it was VC or OSX or Live, but I HAVE NOT made any significant changes ANYWHERE in my system (that I can recall) which would cause it to be "fixed".

However, a large percentage of TI users are still experiencing this issue. It's 100% a REAL PROBLEM and whether or not it's Access' fault, it seriously needs to be figured out so they can be 100% confident in selling an expensive product that works as advertised. That of course is my opinion. Feel free to disagree. I'm sure someone will.

Now I must pray daily to whatever higher power/s that be, that it STAYS WORKING ......

[Dead Geoff]

.... congrats .... would have been nice to know what changed!!!

[Purusha]

For interest's sake. If anyone's still having midi timing issues, there's an issue on the powercore virus I found a work-around for. Might be worth a try.

If you're having problems, especially in cubase, change your buffer settings to something else and back again. It's almost like there's a race condition in settting up a software callback in the plugin for buffer size o. The sound card.

See if that helps.

:)

[Juho L]

Ummmm, this is an Access Virus FORUM, is it not?

This is Unofficial Access Virus Forum. Access doesn't have any control over this forum. If a problem is not solved, it's good to contact Access tech support - We are mostly only besserwissers and ordinary current and ex Virus users here.

[marc]

This is Unofficial Access Virus Forum. Access doesn't have any control over this forum. If a problem is not solved, it's good to contact Access tech support - We are mostly only besserwissers and ordinary current and ex Virus users here.

and if you don't mind me saying, this tread shows that contacting support is mostly the better option anyway. at least, if you're not out for entertainment.

there is much misinformation going on in here. sometimes i wish that those who have problems would just give it a fresh start, contact access support when running into problems and fix them instead of claiming over and over again that it doesn't work anyway.

marc

[plaid_emu]

Apparently most of you are completely missing the point of my original post. IT WAS NOT AN ATTEMPT AT GETTING TECH SUPPORT FROM ACCESS OR MARC. To make it perfectly clear, my intent was to get a PUBLIC acknowledgment and/or response to this timing/sync issue. They either need to track down the sync/timing problem or just admit it's an issue they have no control over.

As I stated earlier, I've been troubleshooting this issue for over 6 months. I have done EVERYTHING that was ever suggested by Access tech support. I just never contacted them directly. I simply followed all their documented directions that were given to other users with THE SAME PROBLEM.

Contacting Access about a well known issue they apparently don't know how to solve (or aren't interested in solving) is like contacting the Dallas police and the FBI demanding real answers about the JFK assassination.

there is much misinformation going on in here. sometimes i wish that those who have problems would just give it a fresh start, contact access support when running into problems and fix them instead of claiming over and over again that it doesn't work anyway.

I expected starting this thread to get a real response would be nearly as futile. It was. In the end, it was not Access who fixed my problem. I sincerely doubt even they could tell me why it suddenly "fixed" itself.

And BTW, where are all you guys that have had the same timing issues now? You all were more than willing to bitch and complain until it came time for a real confrontation with Marc. The only one man enough to back me up was Dead Geoff.

[Totty]

Easy mate! I have backed you up. I know it's a genuine issue. Others have had had it. I'm not wanting to confront with anyone. I have tried to offer support to you as I know there are issues. I am at the moment asking Access support for help regarding my own issue with lfo timings and synchronization. It doesn't help my cause to keep coming on here and putting hard edged comments. I will test anything to help anyone else that I can. I will also be the first person to come here if I don't get a satisfactory response from Access. But it isn't an official forum here and we kinda have to help ourselves a bit:p

[Timo]

They either need to track down the sync/timing problem or just admit it's an issue they have no control over.

I highly doubt it's one single issue, but is different for each user and their setup, given that many appear to have no sync problems. There are a lot of external variables which Access have no control over.

Thus there is no single fix to cure all.

I expected starting this thread to get a real response would be nearly as futile.

It is far too broad, woolly and unconstructive. Even if they visit here, developers need to know people's individual specifics and adequate background (setup) information in order to work to track down (and fix) any particular common problem(s). Calling people out without any common info is not really the way to go about it. It's just going to end up with bad blood.

I have done EVERYTHING that was ever suggested by Access tech support. I just never contacted them directly.

In the end, it was not Access who fixed my problem. I sincerely doubt even they could tell me why it suddenly "fixed" itself.

I'm sure many will see the irony there. You stated you didn't contact Access personally with details of your individual setup when you suffered from it... So, 1) they'll never be able to help you if you don't contact them and thus 2) they will never be in a position to be able to tell you why it 'suddenly fixed itself', so it's unfair (and loaded) to infer otherwise.

I simply followed all their documented directions that were given to other users with THE SAME PROBLEM.

From the forums only? We can only trouble-shoot and suggest so much. (We aren't the horse's mouth).

One of the links you gave in your initial post was actually early 2008 when the OS version was v2.5.1... The OS has matured a lot in the last year - especially from OS v2.7.4+.

I'm sure you had (past tense) a very valid issue, and that others still do, and that it is frustrating. But if we users on the forums can't help (and there are many willing here to help you in any way they can), you really do need to work with Access support in order to resolve your own individual problems if you cannot find a common element (for everyone) to go to them with to say "look, X setup with Y config doesn't work for Z number of people", that they can go away to try and reproduce and (hopefully) bug-fix. I think it would be more constructive if those with sync problems perhaps posted in one thread trying to find common elements to see if there are there any common hardware/software TI issue(s) or whether it is external (in anyone's individual setup outside of the synth).

[plaid_emu]

I know you all think I'm a total asshole. I can understand this perception if you've only ever known me from the recent posts on this forum. I'm generally a good natured person who is considerate and compassionate. It's just that my musical vision, my life dream of creating a body of compelling music to share with others is actually closer to being realized with the help of the Virus TI. It is more inspiring and more capable than any I've used in the past and it's that "Holy Grail" synth, my own cosmic soul-mate of an instrument. Perhaps I'm too emotional about it. I just became very upset when I read the brief interaction below:

I know it's been said before but all I want is reliable timing with the arps and envelopes using Virus Control... I can't believe that this is still an issue - hrmmm It's doing my head in!

i don't think there is any type of timing problem as long as the rest of your system is okay. can you be a little bit more specific?

It almost seemed as though Marc was nonchalantly dismissing a common problem that a large percentage of frustrated Virus owners have been discussing for a long time now.

I know you've all made your points about personally taking up my own individual issue with Access support. The first thing I do before wasting the valuable time of tech support personnel is to research and fix the problem on my own, if possible. So I researched and found scores of users with hopeless stories about the same timing issues on nearly identical systems, running the same software. They said the problem couldn't be fixed by the recommended procedures. I tried said recommended procedures, couldn't get them to work either. Seems logical to just become discouraged, work around it and not bother the tech support guys at Access who already have enough on their plates. That's what I was doing until word of the TI2 came along. Then I got upset that the development team would just make a new product without trying to "fix" the old one. The lack of included rack ears was also disappointing. Then I read Marc's quote above. Kind of sent me over the edge.

That was my trail of "logic" which lead me to start this thread. I'm sorry if it was a different path than some of you would've chosen. I wasn't intent on creating "bad blood".

[Monobeat]

If I output my ARP notes via midi out and then record them to my sequencer, I can see the drift when the problem happens. I reboot the Virus and usually this fixes the problem. I suggest that you guys do the same, and then you have your proof. You can trade midi files with poor timing all day long.

[grs]

Hey guys/gals, I was just tinkering with 'surround balance' on an "wobbly timing" arp part and tried invering the phase of the second out.
Turns out only the right channel phased out to zero.
The left channel on USB1 is 2 samples in front.
and even in the right channel you hear a click every now and then.
So being a curious type I repeated the experiment using only USB2 and USB3:
Result = perfect cancellation, no clicks.

Long story short and relevance to the timing issue I loaded "wobbly arp" project switched every part away from USB1 to USB2 or USB3, even the init patches up to part 16.
My wobbly arp arrangment now plays back without incident with the arps.
I still hear maybe a stray single percussion note like a kik or snare.. (yes, I push my TI). But nothing a few passes in mixdown wouldn't solve.

If this helps other -bad timing- users out please let us all know. Maybe windows is keeping usb1 for system sound or something.(dircect x ??)

[UPDATE] Seems the sample missalignment was confined to a complex patch on Part 13, init patch produced phase out usb1 to usb2 and moving the complex patch to Part 14 produced a phase out with no sample slip on the left channel. Result not wobbly arp.

[Juho L]

It almost seemed as though Marc was nonchalantly dismissing a common problem that a large percentage of frustrated Virus owners have been discussing for a long time now.

He meant that there is no problems with the TI itself (the hardware and software of the TI), but the problem is in the computer side. That's why some people experience strange problems and most don't.

It's always the same when you throw in Macs or PCs. It's just bad luck things don't work and then you have to start troubleshooting your computer, OS and sequencer instead of the external unit releated to the problem.

GRS: I remember that few years back when the USB audio interfaces came to markets some users had serious crackling and buffering issues because the OS "polled" the USB port constantly creating unneeded data traffic. Maybe it's the same kind of problem with the Virus USB.

[Juho L]

and if you don't mind me saying, this tread shows that contacting support is mostly the better option anyway. at least, if you're not out for entertainment.

there is much misinformation going on in here. sometimes i wish that those who have problems would just give it a fresh start, contact access support when running into problems and fix them instead of claiming over and over again that it doesn't work anyway.

Indeed. Usually the problems that can be easily solved here are the classic "user error" problems. The rest is more or less a guessing game.

[grs]

...
GRS: I remember that few years back when the USB audio interfaces came to markets some users had serious crackling and buffering issues because the OS "polled" the USB port constantly creating unneeded data traffic. Maybe it's the same kind of problem with the Virus USB.

I just lowered my polling rate from 500 to 250 using advice from this page... http://www.overclock.net/faqs/73418-how-improve-mouse-response-accuracy-changing.html
No change in the occasional clicks.

Arp wobbles are a differnt issue, patch complexity related so far, but two work arounds I have mentioned a few replies ago..