does the TI sound more dynamic and lush when in single mode, non usb?

[wavesinspace]

for instance, listening to RAM-A 116 WarmWavesBC I clearly hear a difference...

[7G]

I have to agree...
Analog outs are much more warmer
USB outs scratching my ears...

[kcinsu]

well, correct me if I am wrong, but the usb audio is max 44.1lKhz 16 bit, where as the analog outs are 192KHz 24-bit.

And S/PDIF is 44.1Khz 16, sometimes 24 bit... right?

I

[7G]

well, correct me if I am wrong, but the usb audio is max 44.1lKhz 16 bit, where as the analog outs are 192KHz 24-bit.

And S/PDIF is 44.1Khz 16, sometimes 24 bit... right?

I

Exactly...
To be 100% correct S/PDIF can reach up to 24bit/48KHz but it's all about that analog circuitry that gives this warmth.I can hear it especially in the higher spectrum where the USB outs sound more harsh...

[synthfiend]

When you use the TI as your sound card you are using the USB outs, however the audio is coming out the TIs own analogue outs. Does this mean the signal from the analogue outs will be only 16 bit instead of 24 bit.

[luddy]

Is there any hard evidence about any of this stuff? For example, has Access ever commented on any of this? As far as I know, they haven't. Or maybe I've missed it ...

You can't conclude much from looking at the number of bits available via at the D/A converters. They obviously are not clocking those converters at 192KHz, so who knows what relevance that figure has to anyone. As for 24 bits, it strikes me as odd that they would send more bits into the D/A converters than they would over the digital connections.

SP/DIF is designed to handle up to 20 bits in an audio stream. I haven't seen any hard evidence about how many of these bits are actually in use -- changing value in a meaningful way -- in the case of the Virus.

I operate on the assumption that the Virus is a 16-bit synth from top to bottom, inside and out. I don't know that to be the case, but I tend to think that if there were really a bunch more bits of precision feeding the converters than are going over the USB or SP/DIF connection, then you would hear a much greater difference in sound for certain patches. There are lots of long tails and other opportunities to pick out 16bits vs 20 or 24bits among the Virus sounds and effects.

I've taken to tracking my Virus digitally -- through SP/DIF -- and then using other D/A converters if I want to bounce the tracks through outboard analog. That's mostly a workflow thing. I have some converters with very low noise floor that I like a little better than the converters on the Virus anyhow.

-Luddy

[marc]

Is there any hard evidence about any of this stuff? For example, has Access ever commented on any of this? As far as I know, they haven't. Or maybe I've missed it ...

luddy, i've commented on it in the past, we had this type of thread before. i cannot find my own post anymore but i've posted an easy way for everybody to see if there is a difference. it's based on using the TI as a soundcard, making a sound from the virus going roundtrip into the computer and back to the virus' outs. that you can compare with the outs (and no roundtrip) by switching the part in question to direct mode (or analog out 1+2).

best, marc

[luddy]

luddy, i've commented on it in the past, we had this type of thread before. i cannot find my own post anymore but i've posted an easy way for everybody to see if there is a difference. it's based on using the TI as a soundcard, making a sound from the virus going roundtrip into the computer and back to the virus' outs. that you can compare with the outs (and no roundtrip) by switching the part in question to direct mode (or analog out 1+2).

best, marc

Nice! Wish I had time to do this test for myself, haha. Hopefully some kind soul who has tried this will report back. Or you could just tell us the punchline! ;) :D This question actually has a correct and definitive answer from a technical point of view; I'm sure the engineers at Access know whether your round trip test can in principle yield a difference in sound or whether that's impossible on grounds of bit precision...

-Luddy

[DiScO]

I spent a long time playing a 'riff' earlier with the TI in standalone mode. When I was happy with what I was doing I booted up Logic and it all went to sh*t. The power of the same patch just diminished, not to mention of course the feel due to latency, even with the direct outs(as I have found that the majority of the time I have to load the plugin twice to get it tight). I also did a comparison the other day between identical patches on the Ti and the Virus Powercore beta, and the Powercore version wins hands down. And let me tell you, It aint just level. I remember doing the same test some time ago, the powercore version had more 'mid', you could say, although now with the new version I would say the powercore version has more 'depth'. I will have to think again how I work with this machine, as the analogue o/p's are definitely more desirable.

[wehurlbert]

Now let me get this straight - you're comparing the sound from the analog
outputs of the Virus with what you're getting from your soundcard by way
of the Virus USB and your DAW. And you expect them to be the same?

Like Marc said, at the minimum you'd have to use the Virus as your sound
card. And you'll need to be sure you're DAW is not touching the bits - Live
is the only one I've seen make official statements about when they do and
don't touch the bits.

And you'll need knowledge of routing/word-lengths/sample-rates through
the Virus. Marc's statement implies there is equivalence here, but he didn't
specifically say.

Of course, if you have a good sound card, and the differences are gross, you
might be able to make some statements about it. In this case, you shouldn't
be playing while listening. And the performance has to be the same.

You might do this by sequencing a MIDI performance and then recording
audio of that sequence via USB. Now you'd have both a MIDI sequence to
play the Virus (giving you output via Virus analog outs), and a USB audio
recording of the same performance which you'd listen to through your
sound card. Of course, aside from the DAW and the sound card, the word
length and sample rate are variables here. I think this is similar to what
Marc was talking about by using the Virus as your sound card.

Then you could tweak the levels to be equal (yet another variable) and sit
back and listen.

If you've got really good A/D converters, you could record the analog outs
of the Virus back into your DAW, and clinically compare that with the USB
recording i.e. invert phase of one and listen/look. You could also do this
via the S/PDIF out of the Virus i.e. USB vs S/PDIF.

-Wayne

[luddy]

Now let me get this straight - you're comparing the sound from the analog
outputs of the Virus with what you're getting from your soundcard by way
of the Virus USB and your DAW. And you expect them to be the same?

Like Marc said, at the minimum you'd have to use the Virus as your sound
card. And you'll need to be sure you're DAW is not touching the bits ...

...

If you've got really good A/D converters, you could record the analog outs
of the Virus back into your DAW, and clinically compare that with the USB
recording i.e. invert phase of one and listen/look. You could also do this
via the S/PDIF out of the Virus i.e. USB vs S/PDIF.

-Wayne

It's not so complicated to compare a couple of sound sources.

There are three minimal signal paths for listening to the Virus, not including the headphone jack:
Virus USB -> D/A
Virus SP/DIF -> D/A
Virus Analog [ -> A/D -> D/A ]All three of these can be recorded as digital audio (after an optional A/D step in the last case). You can then play them back through a single D/A. You can use a MIDI sequencer to be sure you are getting the same thing all three times. Since you don't care much about the timing in this case, you could probably record all three in one pass if you wanted to. In any case, it's not any harder than recording multiple tracks or takes in a song.

None of the major DAWs changes the bits of a track that is simply recorded as audio and played back at unity gain (and at the original tempo, in the case of Live). Live is the only DAW that silently applies time-stretching to audio (!) so it's the only one where it's really necessary to be so precise about when the warping algorithm is being applied.

In any event, the real question is not better or worse, but rather: are there more bits of precision feeding the internal D/A converters than there are coming over the USB and/or SP/DIF connection? This simple question would be easy for Access to answer, but as far as I know they have chosen to remain silent on the point. Consequently, the only way to get at the answer is to probe with an experiment like the one we're discussing here.

Marc's proposal is nice because it uses a single D/A (in the Virus) for everything. On the other hand, it depends on the return audio path over the Virus's USB link. If that link truncates the audio to 16 bits, then it will give a misleading result -- it removes any extra bits of precision (beyond 16) that the SP/DIF or analog outputs of the Virus may have.

-Luddy

[altunamusic]

Hi guys,

SUper nOOb question here :P

I had Ti for a year, i know how to make sound n design from it. But believe it or not i havent even tried single mode? Can we write midi patern like we use in SEQ mode? and why is it better.. and maybe what is the best routing with Logic pro 8?

I am running on OSX10.5.7, and this 3.0.3 is really a mess in my Logic... I usually can run maximum 8 channel in Seq mode together.. but this time when i ran 2 channels, one of the channel will goes out of tune..

May someone guide me here? *i dont have a sound engineering background*

Thank you.

Din

[7G]

Can we write midi patern like we use in SEQ mode?

Nop...But you can use Multimode for that


I usually can run maximum 8 channel in Seq mode together

Wow lucky you...

but this time when i ran 2 channels, one of the channel will goes out of tune..

Unplug Virus from every cable and then plug back with a Hard Reset(Hold edit button next to arp for 10 secs) and try again

[altunamusic]

Wow.. thanks mate for solving it ;)

Appreciate it!

[djones]

I also use my Snow as my soundcard and I also have to admit its soundquality drops down significantly when using Viruscontrol within Cubase.

It's THAT obvious, uncomparable.
Actually my Snow doesn't even sound much better than all my other virtual synths.
Only when playing in singlemode it sounds a whole lot better than anything else I have.

Which is quite annoying as how my Snow sounds in my sequencer, I don't find it inspiring at all.
Do I now have to make patches in single mode and scroll thru every function by pressing buttons and going into submenus?
As that's the only instance where my Snow sounds 'alive' and somehow only then inspiration comes.

Sometimes I wonder if that little Viruscontrol isn't just a vst on itself and the Snow is just there as being the dongle.

[synthfiend]

how does the TI sound when using it with MIDI in the traditional way (with the external MIDI connectors) and bypassing Virus Control altogether. Is this effectively the same as using it in Single mode.

[7G]

Only when playing in singlemode it sounds a whole lot better than anything else I have.


Then why not using VC and send every track to it's analog out (OUT1+2)???
Or like i do if you want to process eatch patch individualy with external FX using 4 mono outs + 1 Stereo (or whatever comb).Of course you must have available ins on your soundcard to be able to do that...


Cheers!

[sdrr00]

whats the difference between the Analog out and SPDIF on the Virus TI. i thought SPDIF was superior to analog.. why would the analog carry more bits? also how would i hook up the TI in analog to my sound card?

[Timo]

whats the difference between the Analog out and SPDIF on the Virus TI. i thought SPDIF was superior to analog..

S/PDIF is digital. It's locked to either 44.1KHz or 48KHz 16-bit, I'm unsure.

Analogue is.. analogue. It has no limits, except for physical factors.

why would the analog carry more bits?

It depends on the D-A (Digital to Analogue) converter. If the D-A converter is good, you stand to get a more dynamic signal on the output. I believe the TI uses a 192KHz 24-bit D-A. It wont be digital when it leaves the jack output anymore, but it will be high fidelity balanced analogue.

But.. it also relies on your external A-D converter (your soundcard) and the connections (cables) you use as to how much fidelity you actually retain and/or capture at the other end.

It also means the signal goes through two stages of converters... the D-A converter (from the Virus) followed by the A-D converter (on your soundcard), each affects the signal in their own way, and also the connectors and cables affect how much additional noise is physically created/picked up and/or how much interference is rejected. Luckily, the TI uses balanced (TRS) connections which is more professional and should reject a large deal of any acquired noise/interference if you use balanced cables. So if you want high-grade sound, all you'd need is decent A-D converters on your soundcard and relatively decent cables to connect them both up.

Also how would i hook up the TI in analog to my sound card?

Connect the analogue outputs of the Virus to the analogue inputs of your soundcard using either unbalanced cables with TS jacks, or balanced cables with TRS jacks. (A TRS jack is the same as a stereo jack, looks wise, but in this case you'd be using a TRS jack for each channel (mono). If your soundcard supports balanced connections, and you want to use balanced cables and TRS jacks for better fidelity, select 'balanced' or +4dBV from your soundcard control panel or via physical switches.)

Or, if you have soundcard inputs that use balanced XLR connectors, you'd need a balanced TRS-to-XLR cable & jack config.

[sdrr00]

Connect the analogue outputs of the Virus to the analogue inputs of your soundcard using either unbalanced cables with TS jacks, or balanced cables with TRS jacks. (A TRS jack is the same as a stereo jack, looks wise, but in this case you'd be using a TRS jack for each channel (mono). If your soundcard supports balanced connections, and you want to use balanced cables and TRS jacks for better fidelity, select 'balanced' or +4dBV from your soundcard control panel or via physical switches.)
.

i was planning on using the virus via USB, but if analog is much better quality then analog it is. i just havent used analog before.. its the blue port on the sound card correct?

id use this cable to connect from the virus ti to the sound card, assuming im right about the blue port?: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6875465&type=product&id=1093469826662

[Doc Jones]

i was planning on using the virus via USB, but if analog is much better quality then analog it is. i just havent used analog before.. its the blue port on the sound card correct?

id use this cable to connect from the virus ti to the sound card, assuming im right about the blue port?: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6875465&type=product&id=1093469826662
what kind of sound card do you have? My assumption is that if you have to purchase those cables to connect your gear to it, then it is a consumer grade card, not a professional one. In this case you would be better off using the usb connection for your audio.

[sdrr00]

what kind of sound card do you have? My assumption is that if you have to purchase those cables to connect your gear to it, then it is a consumer grade card, not a professional one. In this case you would be better off using the usb connection for your audio.

i have the asus xonar d2x.. from what i can see it doesnt have analog in, only SPDIF. i know it supports 192khz/24-bit analog, just dont know how to connect it. the fact that it "supports" it might mean i need an adapter of some kind

[Doc Jones]

i have the asus xonar d2x.. from what i can see it doesnt have analog in, only SPDIF. i know it supports 192khz/24-bit analog, just dont know how to connect it. the fact that it "supports" it might mean i need an adapter of some kind I believe both the "line input jack" and the "microphone jack" would both qualify as analog inputs. But the problem is these look like unbalanced 1/8th inch jacks whereas the virus has 1/4 inch balanced outputs. So you would be going from two or more 1/4 inch balanced outputs from your virus to only 1 1/8th inch (unbalanced?) input on your soundcard. not quite sure what that would do to your signal. Plus, the cards converters make all the difference in the world and I don't know much about Asus's converters. Just for comparison here is the sound card I am using. As you can see I go directly from balanced 1/4 inch outs (from the virus) to balanced 1/4 inch ins on my card before I hit the converters.

http://www.scavino.it/img/echo_layla24.gif

[TheHobbit]

As said it all depends on what you are comparing it too and usoing in the signals path a way to explain this is thus...

Laymans terms

Using your eyes look at something familiar...a white painted wall.

Now close one eye...does it look any different? (mono - stereo)
Now with both eyes open look at the same wall whilst wearing a set of low end sunglasses (USB lets say)
Now look at the same wall with another a better set of sunglasses (your soundcard).
You are using the same set of eyes and looking at the same wall.
What has changed is the sunglasses and assuming they are different then you would have noticed a variation in 'tone' of the white wall and 'scope' with one or two eyes open.

Analogy explained :

Your eyes = the soundsource (waveform)
The wall = your speakers the end product of what you see
The sunglasses = what ever components are carrying the audio signal from the source to your speakers.

I really must stop visiting forums in the early morning ....

[sdrr00]

I believe both the "line input jack" and the "microphone jack" would both qualify as analog inputs. But the problem is these look like unbalanced 1/8th inch jacks whereas the virus has 1/4 inch balanced outputs. So you would be going from two or more 1/4 inch balanced outputs from your virus to only 1 1/8th inch (unbalanced?) input on your soundcard. not quite sure what that would do to your signal. Plus, the cards converters make all the difference in the world and I don't know much about Asus's converters. Just for comparison here is the sound card I am using. As you can see I go directly from balanced 1/4 inch outs (from the virus) to balanced 1/4 inch ins on my card before I hit the converters.

here are the ASUS XONAR D2X sound card converters:

24-bit D-A Converter of Digital Sources: TI Burr-Brown PCM1796 *4 (123dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit).

24-bit A-D Converter for Analog Inputs: Cirrus-Logic CS5381* 1 (120dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit).

from what i read, these are VERY good, so i dont think i will be sacrificing quality. as you can see, the support 192khz/24bit, which is the same as the virus, right? the problem is now whether the unbalanced 1/4" to 1/8" will change or distort the signal in anyway, or will it act as a regular 1/4" to 1/4" balanced input?

the first one is the Digital to Analog convertor.. that would apply to the SDPIF correct? if they are both the same quality coverters, what would be the difference between using either of them

[Doc Jones]

if you have been reading good reviews about those converters then that is a good thing. The D/A and A/D converters are separate from SPDIF. If memory servers me correctly, SPDIF is a protocol for transporting data (in this case audio data) while keeping it in the digital domain. No conversion takes place from when the data stream leaves your virus to when it enters your computer for processing. On the other hand, when you use the analog outs on your virus and want to get that data into your computer, it must be converted into digital data in order for your computer to understand it. This is the Digital to Audio conversion (D/A). Once that data is in your computer and you have processed it, you will probably now want to hear it - it must therefore be converted back into the analog realm - this is the Analog to Digital conversion.

[Doc Jones]

as far as going from 2 balanced 1/4" jacks to the 1 unbalanced 1/8" jack, I am not too sure. Perhaps someone else can chime in on that.

[Timo]

here are the ASUS XONAR D2X sound card converters:

24-bit D-A Converter of Digital Sources: TI Burr-Brown PCM1796 *4 (123dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit).

24-bit A-D Converter for Analog Inputs: Cirrus-Logic CS5381* 1 (120dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit).

from what i read, these are VERY good, so i dont think i will be sacrificing quality. as you can see, the support 192khz/24bit, which is the same as the virus, right? the problem is now whether the unbalanced 1/4" to 1/8" will change or distort the signal in anyway, or will it act as a regular 1/4" to 1/4" balanced input?

You wont be able to run balanced analogue audio from the TI to your soundcard's stereo 3.5mm line-input jack. It'd have to be of the domestic unbalanced type.

To use the analogue outputs of the Virus in this case, you'd need a cable that has two standard 1/4" mono jacks at one end (to make up a L and R pair of channels from your Virus) and a 3.5mm stereo jack at the other end (to put into your soundcard's line-input socket). You shouldn't have too much signal degradation if cable lengths are kept relatively short. The longer the cable, the more noise it stands to pick up.

the first one is the Digital to Analog convertor.. that would apply to the SDPIF correct?

No. That D-A figure applies to your line-out (from the soundcard to your speakers), not your SPDIF input.

You SPDIF input will be at either 44.1KHz or 48KHz at 16-bits. The signal doesn't vary or degrade from those figures. It's locked at that quality. If you pipe audio down your SPDIF, it comes out the other end of the cable exactly the same (44.1/48KHz at 16-bits). Whereas analogue stands to degrade/change.
But the SPDIF uses the same frequency and bit-depth as the USB output, so you may as well use that, unless you want to take a punt at the analogue outputs. However, as you only have 1x stereo analogue input on your soundcard, you will only be able to use a pair of outputs from the Virus's analogue outputs, and they will be unbalanced.
With the USB you have 3 stereo outputs from the Virus.

[sdrr00]

You wont be able to run balanced analogue audio from the TI to your soundcard's stereo 3.5mm line-input jack. It'd have to be of the domestic unbalanced type.

To use the analogue outputs of the Virus in this case, you'd need a cable that has two standard 1/4" mono jacks at one end (to make up a L and R pair of channels from your Virus) and a 3.5mm stereo jack at the other end (to put into your soundcard's line-input socket). You shouldn't have too much signal degradation if cable lengths are kept relatively short. The longer the cable, the more noise it stands to pick up.

since my soundcard runs at 192khz/24-bit, i want to take full advantage of both the Virus and the soundcard by using the TIs analog connection to my soundcards Line-In, using this cable: http://www.amazon.com/Monster-IP200-1M-Standard-Interlink-200-Stereo/dp/B00003CWAE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1248639323&sr=1-3

however, my only concern is the loss of quality when using non-balanced analog cables. how much quality could i potentially lose by using this cable? since my soundcard can capture the TI at its 100%, i dont want to have to use SPDIF or USB (which both run at 48khz/16-bit max, correct?) if analog is possible. how can i get the maximum out of my Virus?

[wavesinspace]

Just want to bump this thread and continue this discussion... Im very suprised at the poll results being near 50/50 on this...


Just to clarify the poll a little better, we should be doing 3 comparisons,

1. the sound of the virus in single mode, without using virus control at all.

2. the sound of the virus in virus control mode, 1 patch loaded.

3. the same as #2 but with direct output engaged.