Total Integration Discussion

[synthman1]

Original post by synthman1:

I think Soarer means just a stand alone synth editor and librarian like everyone else does rather than total integration. I for one am behind this as well.

This is just my observation, but the VC is a never ending rat race of constant os releases and an Access resource hog to try and make the virus ti work on every combination of software DAW that comes out for every platform in realtime. While they have done a good job at attempting this, its far from perfect. It was a good idea on paper. It simply doesnt work for everyone and as a consequence the Virus TI OS is still riddled with bugs.

I say drop it. No one else does this and with good reason. I dont have it on my other synths and dont use it on my Virus. For those who do fair enough, you have it working on whatevery you are using. That doenst mean Access is obligated to continue this maddness.

It eats up to much development resources. Just make a stand alone editor and librarian and call it a day. This way Access can get back to adding feature updates regularly rather than always putting out fires evertime a software manufacturer comes out with this years revisions.

While Access keeps tinkering with this bug and that bug other synth makers are adding Flash RAM for sample usage through their signal path.

While Access is at it, maybe they can release an OS version without all the TI nonsense for those who dont need it. One thats lighter and better optimized like good old days freeing resources for more valuable things like more filter options, new osc types and additional envelope generators.


Reply by Marc:

the developer teams for virus control/OS integration and the sound engineers are independent. even if we would stop all this "nonsense" (which brought us a couple of awards, good press and eventually some happy users as well), the development of new synthesis functions wouldn't benefit from it. i can understand your notion for a lighter product but in this case there would be no benefit.


Reply By Synthman1:

The end results appear to be the same as many can attest to per the latest OS release. These issues have been fairly constant for years and will continue as long as TI is supported and modified to incorporate more software compatibility. Why wouldnt it based on past history?

I want me a Virus D!

Its hard enough to develop a rock solid software/hardware hybrid synth with the level of complexity of the Virus let try to make one operate in every possible music software application on the planet and systems via USB network.

This is an important topic and definitely a discussion that should continue elsewhere if not here in this thread.

I'm not sure how this doesnt relate topically to the initial post, but ok, I'll let you get back to your specifics in this tread by request. If anyone would like to comment on anything I've posted about TI, please start a post and I'll be happy to discuss there.


if you want a "virus d" - don't use total integration - it is an option to those who like to integrate their virus into a DAW environment. if you believe that things would be different without total integration, nobody will ever know unless you can travel in a parallel time. but seriously, I think i have a pretty good knowledge of how things work together and all i can tell you is what i know and how the people feel who developed it all.

I think its fair to say most including myself, appreciate the effort and time the team puts into the product including total integration. That shouldnt be lost in this discussion. A lot of people do see value in it regardless of how others may view it.

The answer very well may lie in what Marc refers to as "parallel time". Why not release an OS without TI for those dont use it? That way, the people who dont use it wont have to deal with the bugs from these features in the OS that effect the Virus operation regardless.

Following this for years and seeing all the issues, its just hard to believe the Virus wouldnt be far more evolved and different instrument today if there was a simple stand alone editor and Access spent more of their resources on more frequent feature evolution like they used to rather than this nightmare. TI has obviously had to affect this.

It's exactly that complexity which makes pure front panel editing no longer an option for many users, myself included.

And besides, as Marc also says, the entire business model and brand is now predicated upon the Ti concept: turning back is simply not an option.

Thats why everyone else makes a simple stand alone editor.

At some point TI support may end. If Access decides to retire the TI and come out with something new, you cant expect them to support TI forever on a past model. What if its too cost prohibitive to continue in order to compete with what the rest of the market is doing or to stay afloat? I can only imagine how time consuming and costly it must be to test TI on different systems with all the different DAW applications. Every time they change something extensive QA testing must be done.

At some point all synth makers move on. Just because they have a Virus TI today doesnt mean they will in 2 years. The next Virus maybe Virus S for sample ram integration. It doesnt necessarily have to include TI anymore. What if Access isnt around? (god forbid!) Roland, Yamaha or Korg dont continue to

support the past models indefinitely. The problem with software TI is its always one step away from being obsolete. Electronic music equipment has a nice universal time tested total integration method since 1986. Its called MIDI.

[Monobeat]

You said it.

[Timo]

I like the Korg Radias way of things in that it has a standalone graphical editor and librarian (like SoundDiver but 100x times better), and you can use the USB connection as a MIDI device instead of the standard 5-pin MIDI ports.

No audio is swapped between the Radias and the computer. Most people still have dedicated soundcards for that (me included).

[Hollowcell]

Let's face it....

TI is a dead, head-fuck-ie niche that people who are doing tunes for cash never use, and those who can actually get it to work, can't remember what sort of music they wanted to make before they built a computer to handle it in the first place.

Now that should get some action on the board surely! :)

[gjvti]

And another thing! Will the TI mk2 have user customisable/importable wavetables? :grin: A ribbon-controller or XY-Pad might be nice, too, please! ... And a modulation/step-sequencer while you're at it! Thanks!
Well I have used TI direct record functionality and I find it very useful, but yes if there were choice between TI usb recording functionality and a modulation/step-sequencer I would immediately chose the last one ;)

[Talos]

TI is there as an option people!
There's is nothing forcing you to use TI, if you can program better with the hardware do that (I do, cos I'm used to the old boxes and small screens).

If you still complain (about TI) then you are hoping for something that doesn't exist, why?

The Virus TI is an amazing synth by almost any standard, use it to make music not list specs and failings! It's much more rewarding trust me.

Why create a decoupled OS when you already have that? My Virus TI doesnt force me to use the TI software in any way.
I see nothing stopping people from using the TI whichever way they please, apart from the people themselves.

I'm starting to suspect certain people on here will complain regardless of how well the TI is performing.

[marc]

At some point TI support may end. If Access decides to retire the TI and come out with something new, you cant expect them to support TI forever on a past model. What if its too cost prohibitive to continue in order to compete with what the rest of the market is doing or to stay afloat? I can only imagine how time consuming and costly it must be to test TI on different systems with all the different DAW applications. Every time they change something extensive QA testing must be done.

wouldn't that be a good reason to step away from buying plug-ins at all and focus exclusively on hardware ;) ?

marc

[synthman1]

wouldn't that be a good reason to step away from buying plug-ins at all and focus exclusively on hardware ;) ?

I'm not following what you mean here? I'll give it a stab though.

A plug-in is developed in a software standard like VST. Its up to the daw producer to make sure that standard is compatible and supported in their own software. It's up to the end user to make sure their system is powerful enough to run it and make sure it works in conjunction with their own various customized DAW hardware and software configuration. None of those things are the obligation of the soft-synth developer.

What Access appears to be doing with TI is exactly the opposite by assuming the obligations and responsibilities of end users and music software manufacturers.

If you want a software plug in, then why not release a single instance software VST plug-in.

I understand the concept of trying to create one hardware/software product that does it all while off-loading the processor requirements to the Virus, but something has to give and usually its latency, stability and performance when you push it too far and try to be all things to everyone.

[Ronkaz]

I'm not following what you mean here? I'll give it a stab though.

A plug-in is developed in a software standard like VST. Its up to the daw producer to make sure that standard is compatible and supported in their own software. It's up to the end user to make sure their system is powerful enough to run it and make sure it works in conjunction with their own various customized DAW hardware and software configuration. None of those things are the obligation of the soft-synth developer.

What Access appears to be doing with TI is exactly the opposite by assuming the obligations and responsibilities of end users and music software manufacturers.


It is obvious that you do not know at all how the whole market works.
I think you just want to troll. If you don't like TI, don't use it.

Let the other 99% be happy with it.

r

[plaid_emu]

I like the Korg Radias way of things in that it has a standalone graphical editor and librarian (like SoundDiver but 100x times better), and you can use the USB connection as a MIDI device instead of the standard 5-pin MIDI ports.

No audio is swapped between the Radias and the computer. Most people still have dedicated soundcards for that (me included).

I'm also wishing Access would make an editor like this one for the TI.

Another good product with a similar approach is Lexicon's MX series effects processors which utilize the USB for MIDI only and they give you a VST editor that gives you full recall for your project.

Could it really be that much effort to develop and achieve this kind of functionality?

With that said, I'm finally getting acceptable reliability and timing with OS 3.0.4 (aside from the amp envelope bug).

I just hope the next release doesn't change that.

[marc]

I'm not following what you mean here? I'll give it a stab though.

A plug-in is developed in a software standard like VST. Its up to the daw producer to make sure that standard is compatible and supported in their own software. It's up to the end user to make sure their system is powerful enough to run it and make sure it works in conjunction with their own various customized DAW hardware and software configuration. None of those things are the obligation of the soft-synth developer.

What Access appears to be doing with TI is exactly the opposite by assuming the obligations and responsibilities of end users and music software manufacturers.

If you want a software plug in, then why not release a single instance software VST plug-in.

I understand the concept of trying to create one hardware/software product that does it all while off-loading the processor requirements to the Virus, but something has to give and usually its latency, stability and performance when you push it too far and try to be all things to everyone.

i can't follow you either. i give up :)

marc

[synthman1]

It is obvious that you do not know at all how the whole market works.
I think you just want to troll. If you don't like TI, don't use it.

Let the other 99% be happy with it.

r

I'll only reply to the part that is a legitimate point which is "If you don't like TI, don't use it."

The bugs exist regardless. I think this post by Soulidstate in another thread sums up pretty good:

“My TI2 desktop makes sudden outburst of noise, more like a hiss with noise which I can liken to a "sneeze". When this happens, all LEDs shut down momentarily and the LCD remains lit. This happens even if it's on stand alone meaning without USB connection.”

The A, B and C are rock solid. The B and C each have evolved features from previous models much like the TI does. The A, B and C don’t have TI which the most prevalent common dominator why the TI isn’t stable.

Without a clean OS “stand alone” version to compare and test, it’s difficult to “prove” my perspective unequivocally, but you cant say TI code doesn’t have some effect on the overall stability and performance either unless this can tested. ;) Besides, we already know the TI is more stable in stand alone mode than in TI mode, so it does clearly point that way if not provide some evidence.

What’s the harm in releasing an optimized Stand Alone OS version without TI to test? The worst it can do is work more effectively. Users can have more options on what OS they can go with.

Access has already done something vaguely similar in the past. You could load an OS version without the demo song giving you more patch storage.

[Ronkaz]

Without a clean OS “stand alone” version to compare and test, it’s difficult to “prove” my perspective unequivocally, but you cant say TI code doesn’t have some effect on the overall stability and performance either unless this can tested. ;) Besides, we already know the TI is more stable in stand alone mode than in TI mode, so it does clearly point that way if not provide some evidence.

your argument is flawed and it "proves" nothing. have a happy life.

r

[luddy]

I can't see why anyone needs to be hostile or dismissive of the suggestion that a standalone editor would be nice. If it's such an obvious non-starter and ridiculous idea, then why do Roland, Korg, Yamaha, Nord, and many others provide computer interfaces of this kind to their synths? All of these companies are clueless about synth interface design? hmm.

Here's the thing. If someone prefers to work in standalone mode for one reason or another -- because they want to use the analog outs, or because they are using a hardware sequencer, or because they find the latency of TI mode to be problematic when they are tracking, or whatever -- then they don't get any software editor to the machine at all while they are recording with it. In other words, there is kitchen sink USB TI mode, in which audio and MIDI and editing and everything goes through the computer, or standalone mode, in which nothing does. These are very extreme choices. To have a software librarian for organizing patches while you are recording would be really nice even for those of us working in standalone mode.

It's not the end of the world; I'm crazy about the Virus and I have used it in standalone mode from the first day and I've been very happy with it. But it irritates me a little that several of my much older synths have computer-based librarians and editors while, effectively, I don't get that functionality from the Virus because I choose to use it standalone.

-Luddy

[synthman1]

In other words, there is kitchen sink USB TI mode, in which audio and MIDI and editing and everything goes through the computer, or standalone mode, in which nothing does. These are very extreme choices. To have a software librarian for organizing patches while you are recording would be really nice even for those of us working in standalone mode.

I guess in all their fascination with USB and TI they forgot people still use MIDI in, out and thru ports.

That’s another good point. If Access ever decided to stopped supporting TI for whatever reason, or offer an alternative, they would have a stand alone OS and midi capable librarian/editor like most other hardware synths.

[Atziluth]

There are some people who don't like the Virus TI integration, so



sell it.

[Hollowcell]

There are some people who don't like the Virus TI integration, so



sell it.

hahaha this forum gets better by the day!

[synthman1]

There are some people who don't like the Virus TI integration, so sell it.

Some of us have “sold it” and gone back to previous models or are waiting to upgrade (again) until there is clear confirmation of stability and the issues are resolved. ;)

But that’s not in the best interest of Access Music or the user community, is it? Certainly “take it or leave it” is one approach, there are other alternatives as well!

[Hollowcell]

Some of us have “sold it” and gone back to previous models or are waiting to upgrade (again) until there is clear confirmation of stability and the issues are resolved. ;)

But that’s not in the best interest of Access Music or the user community, is it? Certainly “take it or leave it” is one approach, there are other alternatives as well!

Yep, I along with most of the people I colab with have taken the "not buy one at all" approach - works for us. :)

[luddy]

There are some people who don't like the Virus TI integration, so sell it.


psst: some people bought it for the sound it makes and not only so they could pretend it is a software plug-in. weird, I know.

-Luddy

[00264167]

ive got to say i love vc, its what made me upgrade from the kc to the ti and im glad i dont have to mess around with midi cables, assigning midi channels and all that hassle and the ti is my main soundcard. ive been tempted by other hardware but put off by the prospect of going back to all that, i wish more manufactures would do midi/audio over usb and have a software interface, id probably buy them then.
ive only had a few minor issues but otherwise its been stable 99.9% of the time on version 3.

[Hollowcell]

psst: some people bought it for the sound it makes and not only so they could pretend it is a software plug-in. weird, I know.

-Luddy

hehe classic. :)

[Celestry]

Before having purchased the TI2, I believed that I would exploit the Total Integration fully: And so it was a joy to behold those lovely waveforms and EGs, fiddle with the ARPs in VC, browse and browse again, at once vast and diverse numbers of presets, sending both audio and midi over USB, in lieu of a decent audio interface!

However, these past months at least, I utilise VC for browsing presets, and that alone! I do route my DAW audio via the Virus, but all Virus sound creation and preset reconfiguration is done on the synth itself! I find myself drawn to it, and, being a simpleton, feel that mousing a change in filter cut-off isn't quite the same as knobbing it! I am pleased with the USB MIDI, but that's nothing special, eh?

Given a decent MOTU or similar, I doubt I would use TI but for browsing patch treasure!

(^_^) Ahh, what am i saying this time? (^_^)

[GrooveNinja]

I use the total integration features of the Virus, well, totally! It is the source of most of my sounds and it is my audio and midi interface. I haven't had any problems at all. I think that it is just great!

[///OSS]

Im using it in stand alone mode as well. Although I prefer to program it with VC, it just creates a huge clusterfuk in my DAW setup as I have an 828mkIII as my interface, I'm not going to use the TI as my studios I/O. Im basically going to attach the TI to a secondary system and let it be it's interface, see how that works. Trigger it remotely via MIDI still but at least have access to VC without messing with my DAW.

Haven't tried this, but do the midi ports still work even if I'm using the USB connected to a second system?

This is important as the Virus is my main controller so it would kill it if I wasn't able to access the keys, knobs and controllers via midi.

all in all they shouldn't dumb down the TI software they should just have a remote mode that lets you use VC via USB midi and disable the ASIO interface as an option. that cant be that difficult to do.


www.othersidesounds.com

[GrooveNinja]

Haven't tried this, but do the midi ports still work even if I'm using the USB connected to a second system?

This is important as the Virus is my main controller so it would kill it if I wasn't able to access the keys, knobs and controllers via midi.

www.othersidesounds.com

Yes, the MIDI ports still work. You can access the MIDI ports over the USB connection.

[///OSS]

Yes, the MIDI ports still work. You can access the MIDI ports over the USB connection.


yeah but thats not what I mean, I mean having the USB connected to a secondary system so I can pull up VC on that computer..edit and save sounds. Then utilize the MIDI off my Main DAWs 828MKIII to trigger the virus remotely simultaneous. might have to log it off the VC anyways just to have access to the physical midi ports. going to try today

[feedingear]

I use multiple tracks in my DAW for the virus and automate a lot of the parameters etc and its wonderful for that, but I am more likely to make patches in stand alone mode listening to the analog outs then to make patches with VC open and working on a project. Too many issues with knobs working from Synth to VC but not VC to synth to make it worthwhile for me.

Looking forward to 4.0.

[///OSS]

yeah I dont know Im here experimenting internaly still and no matter what the latency gets doubled. and the sound gets a little "processed" to say the least. I got it to work with a secondary interface, I just leave the ASIO on my MOTU and you can still call up and listen to the virus its just that the physical MIDI ports die, but your getting mega latency and my system is currently at 6ms so id imagine its at 12MS due to the damn USB audio bullcrap. They need to make a remote mode that just lets you use the USB for MIDI only and just interface with the VC as a controller that's automated by the DAW like any other VSTi. The doubling of the latency is unacceptable and pointless. I just turn off the VC and go back to using it via MIDI and turn on my Direct Monitor in my DAW and I get super low 6ms latency and the sound being processed by realtime plug-ins before I even print to track at the composition stage. Cant trade that amazing feature for just easier editing via VC.

Still going to try to place the Virus in a secondary system and see if I can still do it but it seems like once VC is on, the sound changes and gets double the active latency. no fun

[///OSS]

Hmmm I did find out a way to do it :)

you change the audio output from USB1 L+R to Out1 L+R

then it goes straight to the DAWs interface and latency disappears, you can apply the same effects as you would onto the VSTi track by just doing direct monitor but retain the low latency and edit with VC

not bad.

[feedingear]

I suggest reading the manual.

[///OSS]

I dont need too, I know the machine in an out, I just dont use VC enough.

[feedingear]

Fair enough - dont mean any offense. But you can send audio from OUT 1, 2 and 3 for your parts in the TI as the Virus plugin as three channels in your DAW - just set up the part output individually. For my purposes, I use the USB outs until I am ready to print, then I will send it via OUT 1 L+R as I feel it sounds richer.

Gorgeous studio btw.

[///OSS]

Fair enough - dont mean any offense. But you can send audio from OUT 1, 2 and 3 for your parts in the TI as the Virus plugin as three channels in your DAW - just set up the part output individually. For my purposes, I use the USB outs until I am ready to print, then I will send it via OUT 1 L+R as I feel it sounds richer.

Gorgeous studio btw.


Its cool appreciate that. and thanks! :D

Yeah I use the multi-outs on the board itself too but not the USB ones, Im just used to using it independently because when i used the USB outs thru the DAW I got that latency and the thinner sound but I never tried to actually use the Analog outs while I had VC on...WWWWOOOPPsss..lol

Sure would've saved me a few frustrating moments. Question is why would you use it any other way? You can setup the exact same scenario if the DAWs audio interface has 6 inputs and retain the realtime playability and still benefit from the DAWs automation and channel features by using direct monitor with only one pass thru the engine instead of 2 by routing via USB.


www.othersidesounds.com (http://www.othersidesounds.com)
www.pushmp.com (http://www.pushmp.com)

[feedingear]

I suppose the USB outs are useful for those who dont have the cash to own an audio interface with multi I/O (such as myself before I got rid of my little Tascam US144 and got a Motu Ultralite MK3), so it made the synth more marketable as Total Integration.

[///OSS]

I suppose the USB outs are useful for those who dont have the cash to own an audio interface with multi I/O (such as myself before I got rid of my little Tascam US144 and got a Motu Ultralite MK3), so it made the synth more marketable as Total Integration.

Most definitely, Yeah if it's your interface then that's just the best way.

I think the D/As on the TI are pretty great it's the A/D's that kinda suck.

But yeah the MOTU stuff took a nice step up on its MKIII gear, very happy with the 828. Id love to have an Ultralite for my laptop but I need to control myself lol Might pick up one of these for the lappy, hopefully the TI plays nice with it.

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=970&ParentId=114

[pwm]

I've got a TI and a C. I don't use TI mode. I found it more reliable to work with control lanes in my daw and sysex dumps.. I keep thinking I'll give TI another go. I just never get round to it yet I'm using the Viruses every working day. I do find it a drag that I can't see waveform displays or create arps and I have to hack sysex to edit the arps and other params but at least in feel in control and only dealing with the information I need.

[///OSS]

I've got a TI and a C. I don't use TI mode. I found it more reliable to work with control lanes in my daw and sysex dumps.. I keep thinking I'll give TI another go. I just never get round to it yet I'm using the Viruses every working day. I do find it a drag that I can't see waveform displays or create arps and I have to hack sysex to edit the arps and other params but at least in feel in control and only dealing with the information I need.



definitely give it another whack cuz I have found a new way to do it from what Im used too and I'm very happy so far...editing the arps was always a plus but the VC was a drag but if you reroute things it gives you the same realtime response,, granted you have to have a low latency setup for Direct monitoring if not then you'll end up going back to your regular ways.

[topper]

There are problems to be sure with the TI. My particular issue was with the fact that it doesn't work at all however, I do like the sound and functions. I do not need multiple sequenced tracks because I don't sequence everything. What I do want however is to be able to access every parameter on the machine. That is not so easy without the software part. Furthermore, I just purchased a new system using pro tools because it talks well to the music community. I got Pro Tools 10, that is what is being sold now and besides, the new computer has Lion and needed it to some degree though it could have been dealt with. In any event I asked Access whether PT 10 and Lion were supported. They did not simply say "NO BUT WE ARE WORKING ON IT". They avoided the whole issue with basic BS that sounded suspiciously like "we don't care or too bad sucker". I confronted them, viciously, through email of course. The disabled my email account and refused to allow me "ACCESS" to the downloads. In fact I could not even register the product and they advised I return it (something the store was not happy with). So it appears to me that, like any manufacturer, their goal is to sell product, whether it works or not as intended is up for grabs. I liken it to going into a tire store and telling them you heard that a particular set of tires were great. The guy asks what kind of car you have and you tell him, a Honda Civic. You then ask about the cool tires which it turns out are for an entirely different vehicle HOWEVER the salesman justifies it by thinking that if you change the rims also you MIGHT get them on your car and sells them to you. He does this while smiling away and being oh so gracious. You discover this and go back and curse him out at which point he says you are rude and obnoxious and are banned from the store. Now I'm no criminal however it seems to me that merely kissing someone while you rape them does not turn the act into seduction. It is still rape.

[topper]

Nobody forced anybody to use the TI but that is completely besides the point. The real point is if you decided you liked the sound of the instrument and think the function set is what you are looking for and have then gone and SPENT YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY BASED UPON THE AD HYPE the thing should work. A few problems are understandable, the release of a product not quite ready for the market or with an overwhelming number of bugs and problems is just plain dishonest. It the people at Virus want to get back to programming (which by the way it not their job, their job is to design, develop and manufacture the equipment so that users can program them to their liking) then they should market a product that does not have so many problems. There is way too many problems on these web sites for it to be either a coincidence or as some of the more computer oriented probably think, user malfunction or lack of brains or knowledge. Isn't it possible that having spent a good deal of time and money trying to capture the fading hardware market for digital synths that Access just managed to prove the rule, not the exception.