timing-sync problem with Ti Snow analogue outs

[madstyle]

Hello,

I own a Virus Ti Snow and I would like to use the analogue outputs connected to an external mixer, but I have extreme Timing (synchronisation) problems with it. Using USB-connection of the virus, everything is in time. I use a Firewire Soundcard (Edirol FA-101) which is connected to an analogue mixer and the Virus is also connected to that mixer, so there shouldn’t be any problem with delay time, isn’t it?
But I already read the thread about the quality of analogue out vs. USB out. Is this because the synchronisation in my host (Ableton Live 8) is at 44.1 kHz and 16 Bit (audio clock) and Virus out is 192khz 24/bit. Where I can find the config menu where I can set audio clock to (44.1, 48 khz or synced host). Is it relevant for my problem or where is the mistake. Thank you very much for any help in that issue.

[HUEY]

I don not think it has something to do with your "bit-rate"

The analog outputs are not automatic "delay-compensated" when using it with Virus control, like the USB-outs are
You must adjust the delay compensation by hand in your sequencer

br

[madstyle]

Thank you for your reply. I tried to adjust the delay time manually but it seems to make some problems. The delay time of the analogue out of the virus is how many milliseconds?

If I use for example my clavia nord modular G2 at the same way how I want to do it for the virus (direct connection to a mixer, not soundcard!), there is no need for delay compensation. Only if you connect an external synthesizer to the input of a soundcard for recording there is a delay of audio signal.

[Timo]

Analogue outputs are instant, zero latency (give or take). No delay like USB. You shouldn't need delay compensation?

[HUEY]

Analogue outputs are instant, zero latency (give or take). No delay like USB.

I think you are right, but then the are ahead of the rest of your DAW? That's what I mean

When I use the analog outs in combination with the USB outs, the analog outs are also out of time and I can adjust this manualy. It will give some trouble when using ARP's etc and start/stop the sequencer many times

b.t.w. my analog outs goes into my analog mixer, not directly in my soundcard as ""external instrument"

maybe you can find extro info here
http://www.access-music.de/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=46&pageNo=3

Edit:
@Madstyle, I see you are already in this thread :D
best r

[spdk]

Hello there,

How many milliseconds do I have to compensate if I want to the analog outputs, and would that be + or - ?

@Madstyle, I have exactly the same problems, I saw in the other thread that everything works fine with your setup now, can you help me a bit with his? Thanks

[peke]

i think it's 44.1khz/16bit quality through usb and 192khz/24bit quality on trs output when speaking about audio, the delay compensation in latency you need to set the rest mixer channels at 91.07ms when live button is not on (not white ligh) and 11.61ms when the live button is on (light on) at stop mode...the one with more latency is more stable when it comes to stability with midinotes.

[madstyle]

yes I tried it and I wondered it is not a negative delay time which is typically to enter at audio input, you have to add + 80 or something I empirically tried at your midi channel! It is not necessary with my Nord Modular (same configuration, but not VST)!

[shnex]

Hey good people!

I believe the reason you encounter more latency when using the analogue outs is because even when using the analogue outs, the Virus still sends the audio "up" to the computer, then back down to the virus (all digitally), the Virus then has to convert a digital signal to analogue.

Basically, that pretty much doubles the latency you had in the first place using the USB out.
I don't know if that's possible, but maybe you can try using the Direct out for all the parts, as this bypasses the whole "journey" to the computer and back.

[shnex]

Hey good people!

I believe the reason you encounter more latency when using the analogue outs is because even when using the analogue outs, the Virus still sends the audio "up" to the computer, then back down to the virus (all digitally), the Virus then has to convert a digital signal to analogue.

Basically, that pretty much doubles the latency you had in the first place using the USB out.
I don't know if that's possible, but maybe you can try using the Direct out for all the parts, as this bypasses the whole "journey" to the computer and back.

[Roby31]

Hey good people!

I believe the reason you encounter more latency when using the analogue outs is because even when using the analogue outs, the Virus still sends the audio "up" to the computer, then back down to the virus (all digitally), the Virus then has to convert a digital signal to analogue.


Why should it to that? Latency is mostly caused by the computer you're using, otherwise you would hear latency when plugging a midi masterkey directly into a Virus and plugging the virus to a couple of speakers.
Deal with that, MIDI and USB MIDI, coupled with ASIO latency and cpu processing generate LAG. With all synths :)

[shnex]

orry, but I'm not talking about MIDI at all here, but Audio.

If we were talking about MIDI their wouldn't be a problem as their wouldn't be any delay (or at least any noticeable delay) in the first place.

Computers, Nowadays, can handle MIDI really easily without any delay, especially down a USB cable, as we're talking about a message consisting of a single byte transmitted through a cable/connexion that can handle up to 12 million of those messages simultaneously.

So no, it's not MIDI lag.

On the other hand, Audio signal is much heavier, and to give you an idea here's how much a single second of CD quality Audio "weighs":

44 100*2(because 16bit)*2(because stereo)=176 400 bytes=176.4 Ko3.

If you set up the Virus to a higher bit rate, this figure increases further.

In the case of the Virus, this stream of data is transmitted in the following order:

1. Midi message sent from the computer to the virus (no delay here)
2. Audio Data sent from the Virus (delay starts to occur, the amount of which depends on the number of channels used on the Virus and the number of USB outputs
3. Computer processor handles, processes and converts the audio in the DAW (Logic, Cubase, etc)---->More delay incurred, the amount of which now depends on the CPU processing abilities
4. Computer sends the audio to the Audio interface----> more delay incurred here yet again
5. The Audio interface finally converts the Audio from Digital to analogue so speakers/mixing desk can handle the sound and play it back.

When you set your virus to use the analogue outs, the first steps are the same, except:
4. Computer processes the audio it received from the Virus and sends it back to the Virus, while processing other audio unrelated to the Virus
5. The Virus get the audio it sent in the first place and converts it back to Analogue so it can be sent to an analogue mixing desk.

This is made even worst if you use all 3 analogue outputs, as the computer and Virus have to handle 6 mono streams of full quality audio. This wouldn't be a problem on a USB2 connection, BUT, the Virus TI/TI2 is only USB 1.

Overall the Delay incurred does vary depending on you CPU, but using the analogue outputs on the Virus WILL only make things worst.

I am looking for a way to output the Audio straight from the Virus OUt 1&2 across all Midi channels, Hence bypassing the PC altogether except for the Virus Control, which I'd use much like Sound Diver. BUT:

1. I'm told it can't be done unless I give up Virus Control and use the VIrus With a MIDI cable like any other hardware synth.
2. Even with that direct out method nothing guaranties that my computer won't be outputting delayed audio, that will be out of sync with the Virus...

AAARGH...

Just one final hopeful word:

When I first got my Virus, it took it a long time to "settle" in my system. I know that sounds like the biggest pile of BS, but it's a fact that after a couple of months of dealing with delays and out of Sync arps, things got better and better to a point where the delay was negligible and sync hardly ever dropped out. I'm hopping that things will get better as time goes on (here's wishful thinking for you! lol)

[Roby31]

Thread was about ANALOGUE outs, which aren't going "back and forth" from the computer to the virus :)

You wrote:
"even when using the analogue outs, the Virus still sends the audio "up" to the computer, then back down to the virus (all digitally), the Virus then has to convert a digital signal to analogue."

Why the hell should a synthesizer do that? It has DSPs on board, it has Digital to Analog converters, IT DOES NOT NEED a computer to run.

[shnex]

Okay Roby, it seems you might not be using the USB port on the Virus but only MIDI, so I'll start again from the beginning for you:

The Virus TI is not your average synth, it integrates within your DAW thanks to its USB interface unlike a regular synth, which only receives and sends MIDI data streams through MIDI in/out ports

In the case of the Virus, which can also be used as an Audio Interface, the synth sends it's own Audio to the computer so that the user (you, me, anyone with a Virus TI) can add processing thanks to plug-ins.

For example, let's say you've assigned your Bass on Virus Midi Ch1 to Stereo USB 1, you can process it further in your sequencer with a nice Compressor plugin, let's say Waves' C1 compressor.

Does that start to make sense?

Now, as I said in my earlier post, when you choose the USB outputs on the Virus Control, the Virus sends its Audio to the computer. The computer then does its magic and the sound comes out of your audio interface/speakers.

BUT when you choose the Analogue output on Virus Control, the Virus still transmits the Audio to the computer for potential processing (such as my earlier example with the C1 plugIn compressor), and sends it back down to the Virus. Hence the increased latency.

You are right in saying it doesn't need a computer to run, but when it is connected to a computer via USB, that is the way it works.

[shnex]

Okay Roby, it seems you might not be using the USB port on the Virus but only MIDI, so I'll start again from the beginning for you:

The Virus TI is not your average synth, it integrates within your DAW thanks to its USB interface unlike a regular synth, which only receives and sends MIDI data streams through MIDI in/out ports

In the case of the Virus, which can also be used as an Audio Interface, the synth sends it's own Audio to the computer so that the user (you, me, anyone with a Virus TI) can add processing thanks to plug-ins.

For example, let's say you've assigned your Bass on Virus Midi Ch1 to Stereo USB 1, you can process it further in your sequencer with a nice Compressor plugin, let's say Waves' C1 compressor.

Does that start to make sense?

Now, as I said in my earlier post, when you choose the USB outputs on the Virus Control, the Virus sends its Audio to the computer. The computer then does its magic and the sound comes out of your audio interface/speakers.

BUT when you choose the Analogue output on Virus Control, the Virus still transmits the Audio to the computer for potential processing (such as my earlier example with the C1 plugIn compressor), and sends it back down to the Virus. Hence the increased latency.

You are right in saying it doesn't need a computer to run, but when it is connected to a computer via USB, that is the way it works.

[Roby31]

I'd like to ask marc or someone into Access, as this doesn't really make sense to me :)

[plaid_emu]

When I first got my Virus, it took it a long time to "settle" in my system. I know that sounds like the biggest pile of BS, but it's a fact that after a couple of months of dealing with delays and out of Sync arps, things got better and better to a point where the delay was negligible and sync hardly ever dropped out. I'm hopping that things will get better as time goes on (here's wishful thinking for you! lol)

This happened to me as well with my TI desktop. Timing was all over the place. I was very frustrated and I even tried to [publicly] get a straight answer from Marc as to why many TI users were experiencing this. Then I went into my DAW to record examples of how terrible it was and it had "magically" fixed itself. :confused:

[Roby31]

Quoting "User_Manual_English_VTI.pdf"


‘Latency-free’ monitoring
If, even after setting your latency as low as your system will
allow, you still find the response is not fast enough for you, try
setting the part’s Main Out (Common Page) to Out1 L+R. This
way the USB audio is bypassed for this part, and you will be
able to play and/or record with no perceptible latency. Once
you have recorded the part, you should return the Main Out to
a USB port, otherwise this part will be played back ahead of
the beat due to the sequencer’s delay compensation.


There actually is something I am missing with shnex's explanation :)
The OP has an audio interface and does not want to / does not say he uses the Virus as a soundcard. Now why would it send audio back and forth the computer, then Digital-to-Analog convert it and send through Outs 1-2?

I apologize in advance if I look like being spoiled or trying to bash your argument. I just want to understand how it works, even to prevent myself having troubles with timing in the future :)

[shnex]

hmm, that's really strange, been going through my manuals (both printed and PDF) and can't find this quote at all...
Strange indeed!
Anyway, for the explanation as to "why the Virus would do that", it's in my previous post...

[Roby31]

http://www.access-music.de/api/download/dlid/214/alternate/0/User%20manual%20Virus%20TI%20(series%201)%20in%20English


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