Low frequencies - headphone and monitors

[thomas]

I've always been struggeling with low frequencies. I'm curoius how you guy's do that.

I have a small studio room and the bass sounds different every time i move my head a few inches. So I can make it sounds perfect in one spot, but not so good if I move my head or go stand somewhere else.This offcourse is quite normal cause of cancellation from the reflextions. I actually use this to check if there are abnormal frequencies in the low.

Because I have neighbors I can't work on high volume, so I do a check on headphone. The difference is so great everytime I switch from speakers to headphone. When I make a good bass on the monitors, then on headphone it lacks that sub bass (compared to commercial track). When I make it sound good on headphone it usually sucks on the monitors -> to muddy.

I probably need to be somewhere inbetween.

How do you guy's work when it comes to the low frequencies?

Greetings
Thomas

[PaPi]

You need to acoustically treat your room.

This is a good start to understand what you need:

http://www.realtraps.com/index.htm

Incidentally, these guys are very nice, their products are top-notch and their prices reasonable.

[gjvti]

Hello
You may want to check this tread
http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16757
and also search for sound on sound articles such as these
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb06/articles/studiosos.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/articles/mixingheadphones.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov00/articles/ustandingmons.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun02/articles/monitors.asp
or just google
http://www.studiomastering.net/e/mastering07e.html
http://mixguides.com/studiomonitors/tips_and_techniques/choosing-studio-monitors/
http://www.vestmanmastering.com/monitors.html
If you other equipment isn't on pair then acoustic treating of your room alone probably will not help much

[thomas]

Thanks for all the info. Will go buy some bass trap. I just can't imagine it would help so much.. let you guy's know how it goes.

quote: If you other equipment isn't on pair then acoustic treating of your room alone probably will not help much

What do you mean by this gjvti?

[gjvti]

What I meant is mostly about monitors. Depending on what music you want to mix/master some simply will not be able to reproduce faithfully even if your room is treated well. As you can see in BX8a test (http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16757)(frequency response diagrams) their native lower frequency zone is pretty much artificial. High end monitors generally should not suffer from this. So if you have high-end from ADAM, Genelec or other, than the room probably will be your only concern. Have a good luck!

[thomas]

I have Genelec 8040A so that's not the problem then :)

[pipeheid]

Forget any bit of high-end gear, fancy plug-in's etc, a properly treated room with decent monitors has by far the biggest WOW factor in audio. It's the one thing you cannot do without, IMO!

[GrooveNinja]

I have Genelec 8040A so that's not the problem then :)

Those are way overspec'd for a small room! $3000 monitors in an untreated room seems like a waste of money...

My room is about 11' x 15', well treated, and properly set up 8030's are more than sufficient.

[thomas]

I did some treating behind and at the side of the speakers. The wall I'm facing has been decorated with 'egg' foam. This I've done more so for the high frequencies. On the other side of the room (the back) I have a window and 2 small strokes of concrete wall. There's also a desk with a screen and stereo set + more stuff.

Because the back off the studio is quite diffuse cause of the furniture, I thought I could leave it that way. But as it seems that's not the case. Does placing 2 foam bass traps in the cornes really affect the accoustics so much?

I have a pair of yamaha ns-10 too. (They are bigger than the genelecs). The yamaha's are perfect for mixing, but they cutoff at +/-70hz and below, so don't use em much when making a bassline.

Could you help me out if I posted some pictures? Don't know if that's possible on the forum..

Thanks for the help :)

[GrooveNinja]

You need bass traps to break up the low frequency standing waves. All of the furniture and egg foam won't do much at all for low frequencies, especially below about 150 Hz. You need a lot of bass traps, and, in my experience, they can make quite a difference. Fill the corners with foam or fiberglass, and the deeper it is, the better.

The 8040's may go much lower in their frequency response, but, as you have observed, it doesn't really help you with getting good low frequency balance. It is actually hindering you.

[PaPi]

I did some treating behind and at the side of the speakers. The wall I'm facing has been decorated with 'egg' foam.

Foam is pretty much useless. Actually it becomes counterproductive in that it muffles the high frequencies while doing absolutely nothing to anything below 200 Hz.

Broadband absorption is what you need, and that's provided only by a handful of materials (none of them "environmentally friendly", unfortunately...) There's a way to make super-effective corner traps on the cheap, and that's by buying Dow Corning 703 sheets (you don't need the thicker 705's because you're going to stack them anyway and 705's are considerably more expensive), cut them in large triangles and stack them one on top of another, floor to ceiling. Do that to every corner in your room. Then you can use extra 703 panels to treat early reflections and critical spots (a so called "cloud" --basically a 703 panel suspended 1 ft from the ceiling and placed right above your head-- is also of great help.) Don't forget to cover all the panels with non-porous fabric (yes, you need to surround the panels with wood frames and use a staple gun to seal the fabric) as fiberglass is not exactly healthy if it gets in your lungs...
If you think it's too much work and you don't feel confident enough to do it yourself, contact the guys at realtraps.com and they'll do it for you at reasonable prices.

Possibly everything in your room should be symmetrical, in order to preserve an accurate stereo image.

[thomas]

Damn, that won't be cheap. I'll see what i come up with.. I'll post my progress, but first a little vacation.
Thanks for al the advice you guy's :)

[PaPi]

Damn, that won't be cheap. I'll see what i come up with.. I'll post my progress, but first a little vacation.
Thanks for al the advice you guy's :)

You bought $3,000 monitors and NOW you're cheaping out? :D

[thomas]

I believe they cost about 1450 euro a pair wich is not even $2000. But you're right indeed. The only problem I have is paying hundereds of euro for a few pieces of foam.

[thomas]

I calculated complete kit for about 650 euro on a dutch accoustics site. All I see is a foto of some foam pieces. I just don't understand why that as to be so expensive.

[PaPi]

I calculated complete kit for about 650 euro on a dutch accoustics site. All I see is a foto of some foam pieces. I just don't understand why that as to be so expensive.

Rigid fiberglass is a lot cheaper than foam and a lot more effective. I don't know about Europe, but here in the US you can get a case of six 703 sheets for $74.

http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Owens-Corning-703-Case-of-6--1004.html

[thomas]

Just sent all the information to an accoustics expert. Lets see what he comes up with, really hope there is a solution..

But first a little vacation :)

More soon..

[synthwulf]

this is a very good thread with excellent points. bump.

[thomas]

There is a little irony seeing this topic popup today. I would have been building basstraps with a friend today, but since I had to see soccer (i'm from holland), I didn't go for it.
Another thing is that I wouldn't be building them for myself, cause there's just not enough room for basstraps in my tiny studio room wich doubles as CAD station.
If the traps work at my friends place, maybe I can find a way like hanging my speakers from the ceiling..
The commersial traps where a bit too expensive for me

[austin_tacious]

www.acoustics101.com

This website is fantastic. I work with acousticians on studios and this is exactly what the big boys are doing. I'm working on one project out in NJ and the client is paying a fair amount for this same information (and a project mgr!). When I built my studio this page was my bible.

Also, you always want to reference as many systems as possible. Become familiar with your monitors. Listen to commercially done music that you know very very well and listen to how the bass sounds compared to the low mids compared to the mids to the highs. How are the dynamics? Familiarizing yourself with your monitors in the acoustic environment they're in is the most important thing you can do. You can have great monitors in a crap space and end up with a mix that doesn't translate very well at all.