Some newbie Virus questions

[simonharris]

Hi There,

I have a few questions about Access Virus that I wonder if anyone might be able to answer please? I am considering a 'Snow' and wondering if it might be powerful enough for me, I am not a heavy user, basically I want to get access to a big library of Virus preset sounds, use a few at a time in Logic and do some minor knob tweaking like cutoff and resonance. I am not really a synth expert so I am having trouble understand the difference between the definition of their terms 'voices', 'patches' and how this relates to the amount of library sounds I will have available to me.

The TI2 desktop has a lot more memory and I am wondering if this relates in real world use to the amount of Presets the Snow will offer Vs The TI2 or if it relates to the polyphony and the amount of things you can do at once. I am not going to be making hugely layered or polyphonic sounds, I just want a big selection of Virus sounds, do do some minor tweaking and to be able to run a few or more at a time within Logic without running out of resources? Do you think the Snow will suit me OK or am I going to run into problems and need the TI?

Many Thanks!

Simon

[~BHG~]

Never buy the cheaper version of anything!

[simonharris]

Wow. Any other thoughts?

[hvyen]

Hello simonharris!
The Snow is a really powerful synth! The main reason, why I personally didn't buy the Snow, is the polyphony. Because you said that you are a newbie, I will try to explain you: The Snow is a 4 part multitimbral synth and the other synths like the Ti desktop / keyboard / Polar etc.. are 16 parts multitimbral. This means, that with the Snow you can only use 4 patch sounds simultaneously for a project. With the others, 16!
The other thing is that you have less knobs and buttons and you have to beaa through the submenues. If this doesn't matter, you can go for a Snow! To say it again: The Snow has the SAME SOUND, fewer knobs, fewer voices and only 4 part multi timbrality. OK, it's cheaper than the desktop and it's really small.
I would buy the desktop version because of the 16 parts multitimbrality, but it's your decision. Perhaps you can find a comparison chart between the Snow and the TI's specifications if you use google.

Greets!

[davidgary73]

Hey simonharris,

Good to see you here. You posted the same question at gearslutz and already posted some suggestions on your thread.

Like what hvyen stated, i would advise you to get the TI Desktop as well.

Cheers

[Timo]

Hi, welcome.

A "patch" = a programmed sound. A preset.
"Voices" = polyphony. The number of notes it can play together before the unit runs out of system resources and cannot generate or play any more.

Sound engine wise, one voice (of polyphony) consists of: three oscillators + sub oscillator, two filters, two EGs (envelope generators) for amplifier and filter, three LFOs (low frequency oscillators), and a wealth of waveform distortion and modulation capabilities.

From what you say:

• You're not a heavy user
• You want access to the Virus presets
• You want to do some minor knob tweaking
• You work in the box (DAW).

... a Snow would appear to be suited for you if you didn't want a full TI. You will have to make sure if Logic is fully compatible with the Snow first though - I think it is, but please make sure with Access first.

As for the library/storage of sounds, I am not totally certain about the specs but this is what I believe the Snow has when compared to a full blown TI:

Snow:
• 512 user-editable RAM patches, and 512 ROM (read only) patches.
• 64 Multis (a multi is a combination of up to 4 patches at a time).
• The Snow is 4-part multi-timbral (it can play up to four patches together at the same time).

TI:
• 1024 user-editable RAM patches, and 3328 ROM patches.
• 112 multi slots, and 16 embedded multi slots (a multi is a combination of up to 16 patches at a time).
• The TI is 16-part multi-timbral.

... again don't quote me exactly on those as I've never had the chance to play with a TI or Snow.

The sound engine that the TI and Snow uses are identical. Patches are fully compatible with each other.

The difference between the two (Snow and full TI) is that the Snow has reduced polyphony (up to 50 voices compared to up to 100 with the full TI), reduced multi-timbrality (4 compared with the TI's 16), smaller patch storage (as previously mentioned), fewer hardware analogue audio outputs (2 compared with the TI's 6), and obviously far less knobs.

The multi-timbrality is also dependent on how complex and voice-intensive the individual patches are and how many notes you play. As such, the voice usage is the real limit as to how many patches and notes you can play at once.

[simonharris]

Thanks for the advice - Yes I discovered this forum just after I discovered Gearslutz.



Hey simonharris,

Good to see you here. You posted the same question at gearslutz and already posted some suggestions on your thread.

Like what hvyen stated, i would advise you to get the TI Desktop as well.

Cheers

[simonharris]

Thanks sincerely for the advice, I am edging towards the TI2 because of the long term issue, I am sure the Snow will be awesome at first but I don't want to regret my purchase later. So I am being careful to do my research and ask questions to experts like you guys! I do have a few more questions please - firstly if I do find myself running several Virus tracks at once in Logic, will this eat up Logic's resources more or less than if I were running the same amount of software instruments like Sylenth (which I currently use). I know Virus has it's own processors so to what kind of extent is this beneficial when using Logic over pure software synths? Thanks for the detailed reply Timo - much appreciated.

[hvyen]

Simonharris,
you have answered your question by yourself! :) Because of the 2 CPU's by the TI2, it won't use the capacity of your computers CPU. If you use soft synths only like Sylenth (very good synth), your Computer CPU has much to do!

Greets!
Marcel

[hvyen]

OH, I forgot something: TI means "Totally Integration". With the TI, TI2 and the Snow you have the possibility to use your synth like a soft synth in your DAW (Logic). This make sense, if you want to process your Virus audio output with software effects by Logic for example. But then it stands for reason that your computers CPU begins to work, but only for the effects, not for the incoming Virus sound.

[simonharris]

Thanks for that, so it uses less of Logic's resources than a software virtual instrument? How about latency though if you are using it from within Logic does it causes any latency because of the USB connection to and from the Virus?


OH, I forgot something: TI means "Totally Integration". With the TI, TI2 and the Snow you have the possibility to use your synth like a soft synth in your DAW (Logic). This make sense, if you want to process your Virus audio output with software effects by Logic for example. But then it stands for reason that your computers CPU begins to work, but only for the effects, not for the incoming Virus sound.

[hvyen]

Yes, it uses less or almost nothing of Logics recources.
The latency thing: Yes, you have latency. This depends on your PC or Mac.
I have a PC with a 4 Core CPU. Working with my Virus in USB Mode I have a latency of 8-10 ms. This is really OK. The Virus has lateny compensation. This means that the Virus and everything else like the softsynths in Logic and your Audio tracks for example are always running synchronized. I tested it the last days, because I got my new Virus TI2 Keyboard (Whiteout Edition) last Friday and it works well yet.
I'll stay today in this forum, so you can ask me today everything you wanna know.

[simonharris]

Thanks - this latency issue concerns me because at the moment with software instruments I get none whatsoever and 8-10ms latency would kill a tight sequence or arpeggiator.

I am not sure how you mean that the DAW can deal with an 8-10ms latency on a particular track, do you mean that you get latency when the keyboard is played live via Midi or is there latency in the audio after the part has been programmed and it is supposed to be playing tightly as quantized notes in the song?

Just to be clear I am not really asking or care about latency from the jack audio outputs from the back of the Virus, I am talking about only within the DAW when the Virus is used 'Integrated', so this is latency after a part is programmed and quantized and you are playing it back so need say an arpeggiated sequence to play 100% tightly against the metronome and hi-hats ect.

So, just trying to understand where exactly you hear latency and under what circumstance when working inside the DAW with the Virus.

Thanks!

[hvyen]

OK, first I have to say that the latency is only in USB mode. Audio jacks are realtime. You hear the latency if you play on your keyboard. Its the same thing like a soft synth: If you play a sound of your Sylenth, you'll recognize a short delay, too. This depends on your sound card, audio interface and CPU. Same by the Virus. Now I'm not sure if there is a delay in recording midi data. Sorry, but first I have to test this at home.

[simonharris]

Thanks for your help, so yes please check it out and let me know where you hear any latency, I don't really care about audio from the jacks, everything I do will be inside the DAW so I would like to know if Virus is the same as other soft instruments where there is no latency during playback in the sequence.

I am hoping it will be just the same as any other software instrument and if everything is inside the DAW then it is all in time with no delays but of course this will be the only instrument using the USB to go out to an external DSP and back again so I am just concerned that this fact could introduce a delay.

Thank you!

[hvyen]

The delay is only if you record something or play Live if using the USB connection. If you playback your recorded stuff, everything works fine and plays together with other tracks. The Virus tracks (Midi tracks) are playing synchronized with your softsynths and audio tracks. But for goinig sure, I'll try it out this evening

[hvyen]

Hi!
So, I tried it out with Ableton Live and Cubase. To say it short, it is like a soft synth. MIDI recording is in realtime. In playback you have no delays relating to your other tracks. Everything works fine and synchronal.
The only bad thing is the latency of 18ms. I thought it was 8-10ms, but it is 18ms. It could be better, but it doesn't matter for me.

[simonharris]

Thanks! You have been very helpful, so then for example if you only have the USB connected (and not the audio jacks) and you are playing the keyboard with a Virus track set to record while listening to the metronome, there is an 18ms delay on that Virus track? That is quite a long latency and could be off putting when you are trying to play the keyboard and record at the same time via USB.
I suppose them that Virus has to be regarded as any other live instrument recorded by a DAW, because the processing is external it's not all within the DAW because this only controls the Virus and does not generate the sound like with a soft synth plug in. Thanks!

[hvyen]

Perhaps I should try the ASIO4ALL Drivers. Somewhere I heard that they could have a better latency than the Virus USB drivers. I can't approve it, until I'll give it a try. I'll refer when I have results.

[PaPi]

Perhaps I should try the ASIO4ALL Drivers. Somewhere I heard that they could have a better latency than the Virus USB drivers. I can't approve it, until I'll give it a try. I'll refer when I have results.

That would help only if you use the Virus as your audio interface. If you're using the TI system with another interface that already has a great ASIO driver, then ASIO4ALL is completely useless (and it would probably get you greater latency than the standard driver.)

[simonharris]

Essentially as I understand it, the Virus is a standalone self contained instrument that also has a built in USB audio interface. There is also plug in CONTROL software for the DAW. So there are these 3 separate things working together, the instrument, the built in audio interface and the plug in that controls the synth remotely but when it comes down to it, the Virus is just like any standalone synth, it just also comes with it's own computer audio interface and remote control software that works as a plug in. Therefore you get latency just like plugging any other instrument into a soundcard and using your DAW to record it. This is not really total integration is it? a software synth has more total integration because it fully operates in the same environment as the DAW, in fact a software synth plug in is TOAL integration. Am I going wrong anywhere. The virus is awesome but it is a standalone instrument and the claim of total integration does not seem to be very accurate to me.

[PaPi]

It is definitely total integration with your DAW. Or else you'd need to plug audio cables into your interface's inputs to hear the Virus through your audio interface's outputs, like you do with every hardware synth (which, incidentally, you can still do, if you want...Some people swear by this system giving you more "warmth" because of the inherent analog distortion. Personally, I think it's poppycock... :D)

Essentially, when you're using your own audio interface and the Virus in TI mode (i.e. VST plugin and USB connection only), the Virus acts exactly like a softsynth. The only difference is that the bulk of the computing is done externally (by the Virus engine) and not by your computer. Meaning that the virus won't take much computing power, unlike some of the more complex plug-ins.

Audio latency depends on your audio interface (and how powerful your computer is) and it has nothing to do with the Virus. Yes, of course it can be argued that USB 1.1 isn't exactly the fastest protocol in the world, but the Virus won't need anything real fast because it doesn't use samples.

[simonharris]

With my softsynths like Sylenth and Gladiator I get 0% latency - NONE. This is because the audio is being generated in the same environment as the DAW, there is nothing being sent down any cable and back in again.

I understand that Virus has latency of around 18ms because it takes this long (or slightly more or less depending on a sound card) for the audio to reach the DAW via the USB cable.

Audio latency relates to external instruments.

Softsynths are INTERNAL instruments, so no latency.

Virus cannot behave exactly like a softsynth, this is impossible because the audio comes from outside and this introduces latency.

[hvyen]

Thanks for the hint!
The most time I'm using Ableton Live. I've never seen the possibilty to choose more than one asio driver. I've heard that it should be possible in other sequencer programs or is it possible in Live, too?
At the moment I have to work, but later I'll try the ASIO4ALL drivers with my Virus TI.

[PaPi]

Softsynths are INTERNAL instruments, so no latency.



Not true. There is no audio interface with zero latency.

[simonharris]

The latency is usually on the audio input. So a live instrument arriving at the DAW is maybe 8-20ms delayed behind the existing audio/metronome that is already in the DAW. There are settings in the DAW to delay all output to compensate for the incoming delayed audio latency but this only delays everything to match. What I referred to as having no latency (or at least NONE whatever that I could detect, and I am pretty good at detecting delays and out of sync after being an audio engineer for over 30 years) is the audio that is already inside the DAW and is not coming in from the outside, hence my software synths have no detectable latency, I can rapidly hit the keys on my midi keyboard, the midi signal is instant and plays the nots instantly with no delay on the software synths. Also, I have NI Maschine, this is effectively midi pad triggering drum sounds that are already in the DAW - No latency - no audio coming in from the outside via USB. Latency delay happens on incoming AUDIO, the time it takes for the signal to be processed by the computer and the software, it arrives slightly later than the audio that is already in the computer hence the delay. No incoming audio, no delay.

[hvyen]

I've tested the ASIO4ALL drivers. At 128 Samples I get a latency with 6ms.
At 64 Samples I get 3,4ms, but sometimes cracks.

[simonharris]

Thanks! I will probably still buy the Virus because it's always possible to set it up to monitor live without going through the DAW during recording. The only question I have now is whether the Virus presets are as good for dance/trance as the softsynths I am currently using like Sylenth . . . .

[Abnorm]

the presets are good, though they demand some tweaking to get what you want, but beeing a virus user (TI, anyway), I`ve learned much just by tweaking and taking things apart :)

[simonharris]

Trouble is . . . . no time to reinvent the wheel, life is too short, so many great preset libraries are out there and either Virus also has great patches or it doesn't. When you have whole songs to produce and arrange it isn't practical to have to build and tweak every time you want a sound. As an example consider classic sounds like the Roland 909, 808 ect - the same sounds used in thousands of songs and everybody loved them, there are lots of fanboys who say you have to create every sound but it's just not practical when you have songs to produce and finish, great preset patches are important and do you think Virus has them or would I find 90% of them unusable as they are for dance/trance or am I best avoiding Virus and sticking with Sylenth which already has hundreds of great ones and Gladiator which I just demoed and literally found every sound was awesome. Everyone says Virus is the best but is the patch library it's weak point? Many Thanks!

[hagmanma]

there is such a big community of virus owners and there are thousands of patches out there (not hard to find). you wanna do trance with this machine? - you will be happy... for sure.

but the real thing comes when you tweak the shit out of this synth. and this has nothing to do with inventing the wheel twice. it's more the question if you like to drive or just wanna watch catalogues of nice cars.

[simonharris]

Great, it also depends if you want to just drive the car or customize it first I suppose.

[hvyen]

There are over 3000 preset sound on the TI. The TI synth is best for producing trance and dance music. Believe me, you won't regret it. The preset sounds are really awesome. Although tweaking is much more interesting, you'll find very useful preset sound and sometimes you'll get sounds you never herad before. In my opinion, it's the best synth ever made.

[simonharris]

Great! One question, when the preset memory is full how do you fill it with more presets? does it overwrite the ones that are in there and do you load them via USB from the computer in the same way that you load banks of presets in a software synth? I am considering the Snow, so less preset memory than the TI2 but it does have 3 assignable button and cutoff/resonance as well so I think it could be good. Many Thanks!

[hvyen]

You have a few empty banks which you can use for your own sounds.
The TI has 26 banks, 128 sounds each. The first 4 are RAM banks. So you can save your sounds there. The other banks are ROM banks where you can't save your sounds, but you can flash these ROM banks with other sounds, so they are "burned" in the TI and always there. If you change the ROM sounds using the Virus Control Plug In, the changed sounds will be saved with your arrangement. The Snow has less banks. I don't know how much it is.

[simonharris]

Thanks for the advice, so on your TI can you fill those ROM banks by choosing which patches to load or do you have to fill them all and can you delete patches individually? Just wondering if it is possible to fill those banks only with my favorite patches? The RAM banks sound good, for sounds that I have created and tweaked.

[hvyen]

You don't have to fill the whole bank, you can choose between your favorite sounds. But be careful: If you load new sounds in the ROM banks, your sounds will be lost, if you turn off you virus (not in the RAM banks). After loading your sounds into the virus, you have to save your arrangement in Logic, Cubase, Live etc. while the Virus Control Plug In is opened. The next time you open your saved arrangement, all sounds will be recovered, so it loads the status you saved with your arrangemnt last time. This feature is called "Total Recall". It works like a soft synth and has nothing to do with Arnold Schwarzenegger :)

[gtrance]

Simonharris, you do not understand latency at all and Hvyen has been little help to you in this respect.

Do you use a midi keyboard when playing softsynths like Sylenth or Gladiator? If you do then there will be latency. You may not be able to hear it but no setup can give 0 latency. There will be a slight delay from when you press a key on your midi keyboard and to when you hear the sound from your speakers.

Using the Virus in TI mode (usb) there will be a small amount of latency when you press the keys, just the same as with a soft synth. However if you have a decent soundcard with good drivers, the delay will be tiny and likely unnoticeable - the same as your soft synths.

In regards to your comments about using presets and not wanting to have to tweak them - If this is how you approach your productions (which is fine, each to our own), then I would suggest that the Virus, or any other synth would be a waste of your money. Especially a synth that costs what the virus does.

You would be better with Romplers like Nexus and Omnisphere. These have huge librarys of built in sounds ready to go that sound very high quality. Omnisphere is actually a synth as well so you can really tweak and create new sounds where as Nexus is a lot more limited in what you can do to the sound other than basic filter and FX stuff. But either way, a rompler like Nexus is aimed at those who just want ready to go, high quality sounds with little to no tweaking required.

The Virus does have thousands of presets, some of them very good, but if you don't want to do any tweaking then you will likely be spending all your time browsing through presets trying to find one that fits your track.

SYNTHS ARE MEANT TO BE TWEAKED!!!

[simonharris]

Thanks sincerely Hvyen, you have been very helpful. It's basically like a softsynth where you save the DAW arrangement and it saves whatever set up was on a particular channel. That could mean the Snow could be a good bet for me because it's not totally dependent on the ROM banks being the same on each channel.

Also thanks for your comments Gtrance, I know what latency delay sounds like thanks and I am happy to report that with my setup, a powerful quad core mac with 8GB ram I can detect no latency delay to any of the softsynths via midi when rapidly hitting the keys on my attached USB keyboard and none on my attached VI Maschine, it plays absolutely tightly onto the Logic metronome. If there is latency I cannot detect it and like I said I have been an audio engineer for 25+ years and heard horrible latency on many DAW's in the past caused by the sounds cards slow processing of external instruments.

Yes synths are great when tweaked but it should be an option nowadays, one expects great patches which you can customize as an option, I am sure the Virus will have great patches and I look forward to using some of them untouched and others to tweak, what i don't want to do is create sounds from scratch, that is for the hardcore fanboys who and not for a producer with a deadline who has complete songs to produce and mix. I am a producer looking for great sounds, some of them I will tweak and some I won't.

[hvyen]

Yes, I do it the same way. For example: If I need a pad sound, I check the pad category on my TI and browse through the patches. If I find something useful and the sound is good enough, the sound stays untouched. But often I have to tweak a little bit, some filter and envelope changes etc.
When there is nothing useful to find, I have to tweak the whole sound.
I think it's not the best way to create every sound from the beginning. Browsing through the patches can safe much work and give you good ideas what is possible with the Virus.
But I agree with gtrance: "Synths are meant to be tweaked" and not ONLY for using preset sounds!!!
This is for all guys who want to understand how to tweak:

http://www.dvd-lernkurs.de/audiobearbeitung/41-hands-on-synthsound.html?Itemid=169

Sorry, but this DVD is only in german. I couldn't find any english versions.