View Full Version : What the pluck?
Barnelby
27.01.2011, 08:13 PM
So after the dust cleared of my initial amazement with the ti2, there are a few things that either I haven't gotten ahold of yet or may be a weak point in the virus (my money is on the former). For the life of me, I can't seem to get a good plucky sound out of it...nothing special, just the typical pluck sound such as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8ECNZL_DJE
Go to around 1:40
Now I know that is probably some huge analog synth; I'm not expecting the TI2 to be the mother of all pluckers, but the thing is I have EASILY created harder, more crisp pluck sounds out of sylenth and the ES2 in logic than I have been able to make with the TI2...every time I try to make something like that it ends up lacking that sharp attack.
Any pluckin tips?
Thanks!:cool:
I found good plucks to be somewhat elusive.. and they are a very important component of the type of trance I like. I had a Virus briefly and I did not hear any mind-blowingly good plucks.
Nexus has some in some of the sound sets, but being a rompler its not that useful because you can only do so much with them.
Gladiator has an amazing Armin Van Buuren Pluck sound that is as good as anything out there, but it uses a weird "HCM" synthesis technique that makes it hard I think to produce other similar plucks.
The good news is that probably the best tool I've seen for this is a little synth called Oresus.. its a VST that only costs $45... The reason it is so good is because it gives you these visual, curved (exponential/logarithmic) filter envelope modifiers that you can tweak with the mouse. It turns out that the exact curve/slope of the filter envelope is fairly critical to putting that trancey "bite" in a pluck that makes it slice through and sound like a trance pluck. That is so much more important than any other aspect of the sound... harmonics dont mean much with such a short decay. Also because you can see what you're doing with the filters visually, it might help make good plucks using other synths. I've had some pretty nice luck with Dune, but the ability to put together plucks with Oresus really blew me away.
One thing I will add, after I listened to the plucks in your vid... part of what makes them nice is the movement with the cutoff filter and the arp.. the arp can be done a million ways, and the cutoff maybe too, to some extent but as far as I can tell, at least in FLS, with the Oresus VST I recommended, the curved filter slope cannot be automated / recorded into the DAW (MIDI signal) which was a little bit of a disappointment.. I have not explored further to see if it can be done. It doesnt mean it would stop you from doing what you want, but with Oresus you might be limited to manipulating cutoff / all or none... its a somewhat limited synth in some ways.
feedingear
28.01.2011, 03:16 AM
I had a Virus briefly and I did not hear any mind-blowingly good plucks.
Honestly mate did you even dig through the banks and the extra soundsets?
Honestly mate did you even dig through the banks and the extra soundsets?
I listened to every default patch that came on the Ti2. Not sure about extra soundsets, do you mean sounds from outside sources? If so, no.. I didn't get that far before I had to return it. Trying to wrestle with the FLS and latency issues consumed the bulk of my 30 day return policy period.
Also with regard to plucks, I think you need near zero latency between the keyboard and the sound to play plucky sounds properly. I was using a Ti2 desktop, which means that if you play a trance pluck or stab sound in FLS you're dealing with something like 1/8th of a second (125ms) latency which completely defeats the purpose of plucks or stabs. I might have had a completely different impressions if I had a Ti2 keyboard or polar, assuming there was the same instantaneous sound response (or likely better) than what I get with a low latency FLS setup (4ms). I think folks that play the virus live, and have more of an interest in live tweaking than DAW workflow and automation are going to have trouble relating to what I'm saying. Also, I know you mentioned cubase and I think someone else said under XP 32-bit a lot of the issues go away? I dunno, not an option for me at the moment.
Barnelby
28.01.2011, 05:18 AM
Oh man, I picked up the demo of dune today and holy pluck. My favorite plugin synth to date and I've tried em all...well except nexus... I'm a logic guy so i dont deal with vsts a lot...but i guess i could fire up abe and try it out. But yeah, good pluck sounds with dune is as easy as pressing a key on the keyboard....I haven't lost faith in the ti2 but I have to admit I am definitely disappointed in this glaring blind spot in its sound. Even though the ti2 is a beast in so many areas, this one gimp is a major limitation to my music and considering that I could afford a tetra and all the plugins a kid could ever dream of for the price of a used ti2....Im kinda at a crossroads here
Roby31
28.01.2011, 07:07 AM
yay, another one that misses the "GET MAGICAL TALENT" button on his instrument, like MBTC :P
At least you should try not to post bullshit, with FLS it's possible to have 2 to 6ms latency with the TI without any problems and most of the users are the damn proof; the fact you couldn't just means that you didn't do the right things.
I find myself disgusted to say this, but I'm kind of happy there's people wasting their money thinking the Virus and the other hardware synthesizers have the magic "famous, rich and beautiful" buttons then realize they can't even use them. Used market is full of synths that are like new and half the price, bought by noobs who couldn't even do a search.
Any resemblance to real events and/or to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental
I'm sick to goddamn hell of people that can't do something and complain about their instrument instead of their lack of understanding.
BTW, every Virus is probably capable of doing plucks, or retarded people wouldn't call it the "trance" synth and there wouldn't be freaking TEN Nexus2 expansions that are all Virus.
Barnelby
28.01.2011, 08:30 AM
pluck you.
Roby31
28.01.2011, 09:08 AM
Oh I will. Now, before you go sell your Virus just in time for some lucky guy to get it with 30% discount you might want to:
1) contact support in order to have them give a look to whatever problem/latecy you're facing
and
2) you might want to have a look at:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiUsIRYcMtc
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUif508d-gM
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owodhSrfc4g
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWG8MQrzkcQ
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjvTDrZkxY
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn1oZRffcT0
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryDxkjm544M
These are an example of soundsets that are filled with dream-trance sounds and amongst them, loads of plucks. I would be surprised if you can't recreate them with the snappy envelopes, filters and hypersaw waves provided by your synth.
The Alan Marcero soundset you can even get it for free or donate as little as 5€ after you tried it, so you can see how certain sounds are made.
I'm sorry to sound so harsh and digital, but I've been facing this bullshit since my Virus-Day-One.
First off I had to buy one new because with all the bitching that goes on on these forums I really didn't want to waste money and buying used would have meant NO REFUNDS and NO WARRANTY, a thing that I couldn't risk. Then, after I set it up properly, I started to realize that are the laziest people, those who look for the magical auto-famous buttons and presets that complain the most. Sure, there are users who were truly unlucky with units that didn't work or set-ups that required a lot of reconfiguration in order for the TI concept to work as supposed. I don't blame these people at all. I'm sorry that they didn't realize that if you want software integration you're willing to deal with the fact that your synth becomes a computer peripheral with all the shortcomings it might imply. I've had my share of USB related troubles and Virus not showing up - every time the official support or other forum members at virus.info helped me out.
I realize just now that for the same money I could have bought 2 used Virus instead of one, I would've had more flexibility, and I have instead spent more because of people not telling the whole story on forums and because of HAPPY users not bragging about how well their setup works (can you blame the latter group?).
I receive 3-4 forum PMs everyday, other facebook messages, at least one e-mail every other day, all by people who didn't even bother to contact the support they PAID for and tell me "the manual is too long to read - listen, how do i do sound X / how do i set up the atomizer / why doesn't it have enough bandwidth, i only use it with 50000 other peripherals sharing the hub ???" What do you want me to say? I'm not paid to do this shit, I do it as a volunteer to repay those who helped me when I had questions. Reading WRONG stuff on forums just angers me. It's like you spent TWO DAMN THOUSAND EUROS on a piece of equipment without even making sure it did what you thought because of whatever reason you didn't have the time to check, but now you have the time to bitch on the Internet about how it doesn't work and it's hyped and overpriced and X does this better and Y costs less and has the same samples.
feedingear
28.01.2011, 09:51 AM
Amen mate.. I have had my issues initially with setup and latency and whatnot. I've also had issues with plugins, stability, etc. These are the barriers that electronic producers do have to deal with. A good read of the forums or time spent working out your system setup can resolve these issues.
BTW if your getting latency on your TI, press the D button on VC. That eliminates the latency while you play along live. Once you record your midi, change it back. Done.
As far as scrolling through the entire patchbank - I have had the TI for a few years now, and I am still going through presets and hearing sounds I have never heard before as well as of course designing my own. The quality of sounds, the richness and expression, and the creativity they can spark is second to none on any other synth soft or hardware I have used.
yay, another one that misses the "GET MAGICAL TALENT" button on his instrument, like MBTC :P
At least you should try not to post bullshit, with FLS it's possible to have 2 to 6ms latency with the TI without any problems and most of the users are the damn proof; the fact you couldn't just means that you didn't do the right things.
I think you should try to be a little less of a douchebag. I've mentioned in almost every post that my problems were specifically with Win7 64 bit and might have been related to the driver for all I know. At the time I bought the Ti2, I scoured the ImageLine forums for someone who was able to get reasonable latency without resorting to delay compensation and other craptastic techniques, and at that time NOBODY was successfully using FLStudio with the Ti2 without major latency issues.
Look at my early posts on this forum and you will see that I tried hard to find someone here with enough knowledge to help me get things working properly in FLS, and it seemed nobody here was using that host, and those with low latency were using something else entirely.
But at least nobody had gone so far as to call me a liar, outright, until today.
Congratulations, you just hit a new all time low for this forum.
Haplo
28.01.2011, 02:20 PM
Well I guess what Roby31 is trying to say, even though in a somewhat "hostile" tone ;) , is why you make these recommendations based on a very short experience of the Virus products ?
Since that is what you stated in your first post.
If you're looking for presets there are tons of presets, both free and commercial that are more or less targeted to the trance scene.
E.g. check the patches by e.g. Manuel Schleis (MS) I believe the whole TI1-M factory bank is dedicated to his presets (they are spread out of a bunch of banks in the TI2-factory banks). There are also some free to download on the Access Music site.
MS is the guy behind the Vengance site, which has produced trance/techno/favorite-ganre banks for a lot of gear and VSTs (Vanguard, Nexus, Sylenth etc.).
http://www.vengeance-sound.com/eng/indexes/indexSounds.html
I would find it very hard to believe, if you can't find a good starting point or reference on how to do it with all the presets available.
Roby31
28.01.2011, 02:58 PM
All time low for this forum? Proud of it. At least I try to be helpful in my comments, not to be a douche. I don't go spamming false stuff around just to perpetrate my cause, just to reassure my ego that buying something I didn't need and then letting it go because I didn't know how to use it was the right choice.
I paid on my own skin all the bullshit people throw around. You weren't "noted" in my rant, you weren't accused of anything and yet you feel offended. How come?
And again your forum shows lack of knowledge. I always used my TI2 with W7 x64 in FLS9 (demo) and guess what? It always worked without any major latency. It HAD the graphic API problem but no significant audio latency. It didn't kill the workflow, because simply putting the GUI behind when it wasn't needed fixed the stuttering. Many other people were using FL at the time and they kept working, probably they simply aren't part of the forums, exactly like the majority of people happy with their Virus that don't go brag about it. Go figure why.
Well I guess what Roby31 is trying to say, even though in a somewhat "hostile" tone ;) , is why you make these recommendations based on a very short experience of the Virus products ?
Since that is what you stated in your first post.
It was a short experience in the sense that I only had 30 days to work it out, but I put in an INSANE amount of hours trying to make it work. Maybe with enough persistance I could have gotten things sorted out, but at that time... maybe things have changed... but at that time, I could not find anyone using it successfully in FLS without all sorts of PDC workarounds, bouncing down tracks, and other things. No doubt all of this is part of producing electronic music professionally, but it's only a hobby of mine and I do not have insane amounts of time to spend to get all gear in sync.
But I'm not even sure why this thread got so tied up in Virus / latency issues or hate mail.
I simply made a VST recommendation to the original poster (which I might add he seems to thrilled with my recommendation). My comments about latency did indicate my own experience with horrible lag, but if anyone reads deeper they will see I was talking about keyboard-to-dsp latency, and the "immediacy" you get from playing a Virus keyboard versus controlling a Virus desktop from a midi controller as I was doing.
All time low for this forum? Proud of it. At least I try to be helpful in my comments, not to be a douche.
Why don't you ask the original question poster who has helped him the most in this thread so far?
I don't go spamming false stuff around just to perpetrate my cause, just to reassure my ego that buying something I didn't need and then letting it go because I didn't know how to use it was the right choice.
I didn't spam anything false. You would have to be really stretching to find anything I've posted that in any way inflates / supports / reassures my own ego about anything. I was crushed with disappointment at my experience with the Virus on FLS with Win7-64, and I keep revisiting these forums in the hopes that I will see some hope that I can make this purchase again someday and use it with the same latency results others seem to get on Cubase or Logic.
I paid on my own skin all the bullshit people throw around. You weren't "noted" in my rant, you weren't accused of anything and yet you feel offended. How come?
You're blatantly lying... You referenced my username in the first line of your post.
And again your forum shows lack of knowledge. I always used my TI2 with W7 x64 in FLS9 (demo) and guess what? It always worked without any major latency. It HAD the graphic API problem but no significant audio latency. It didn't kill the workflow, because simply putting the GUI behind when it wasn't needed fixed the stuttering. Many other people were using FL at the time and they kept working, probably they simply aren't part of the forums, exactly like the majority of people happy with their Virus that don't go brag about it. Go figure why.
I didn't claim to have knowledge of the TI2 and using it with FLS, so it's a bit moronic of you to point out my "lack of knowledge". I originally came to this forum to get knowledge. In this particular thread, I shared some knowledge on how to come upon very nice pluck sounds at a very nice price point.
The question I have for you, is since you've had such success with FLS on Win7 64, where the fuck were you when I posted so many questions, asking for tips on getting my setup working? Not one person on these forums chimed in to help with that particular host and operating system. From the ImageLine forums I came to the conclusion that most were not having success under a 64 bit OS, I could not find anyone that had been able to work it into their setup seamlessly, they all seemed to be using lots of workarounds.
So again, where were you? Why do you find it easy to make time for flaming, but not helping others?
Oh man, I picked up the demo of dune today and holy pluck. My favorite plugin synth to date and I've tried em all...well except nexus... I'm a logic guy so i dont deal with vsts a lot...but i guess i could fire up abe and try it out. But yeah, good pluck sounds with dune is as easy as pressing a key on the keyboard....I haven't lost faith in the ti2 but I have to admit I am definitely disappointed in this glaring blind spot in its sound. Even though the ti2 is a beast in so many areas, this one gimp is a major limitation to my music and considering that I could afford a tetra and all the plugins a kid could ever dream of for the price of a used ti2....Im kinda at a crossroads here
Glad you like Dune. I really haven't found any sort of shortcoming of this plug-in yet. Hardware-like sound and pretty much any category of trance sound is possible in top-notch form.. warm bass, lush pads or string sounds, amazing leads, good onboard effects and truly amazingly efficient CPU usage. I can produce an entire track using just this plugin and get the polyphony-voice count equivalent of about 5 or 6 Ti2s while my CPU doesnt break a sweat.
Barnelby
28.01.2011, 07:51 PM
Yeah for sure. Dune just sounds so clean and punchy....it also seems really thick in the mix, too, which I feel is where sylenth fell short for me....(it sounds good by itself but in tandem with a virus sound it seems pretty feeble IMO)
Yeah this whole thread has been really interesting but I'd like to point out that my original query, and maybe I didn't state it well enough, is that I can open up sylenth, the ES2, dune, whatever, go to ANY preset, and right off the bat get better sharp pluck sounds than I can create with 10 minutes of tweaking with the virus. I HAVE tried other soundsets, I HAVE seen that there are good pluck sounds out there, and if it makes any difference I HAVE read the manual cover to cover more than once.
I am not contesting that with the right amount of time spent with the virus that ANY sound can be achieved, I know that.
Simply put, for me it is weird that with other synths it is hard to NOT get accurate pluck sounds, when the virus takes some coaxing to get that sharp attack.
Please don't beat me up.
Simply put, for me it is weird that with other synths it is hard to NOT get accurate pluck sounds, when the virus takes some coaxing to get that sharp attack.
I really think the non-linear attack/decay envelopes are the key -- I wish I could tell you exactly how to achieve that on the Virus, but I'm pretty sure its possible (if not, shame on them)... and even if it's not directly supported you can sometimes do tricks with 2 filters, like an LP + BP that will give you a sharp curve that gives that bite, but finding that sweetspot can be a bit of a chore. Adjusting the resonance peak has an enormous amount to do with it too.
For example Zebra2 can do this type of modification to the envelope slope, but the setting is in a place that's easy to miss until you've worked with it for a while and know where it is.
Just as an experiment a while back, I watched a few sound creation tutorials using the Virus, and tried to recreate the same sounds using Dune. The % tweaks on each parameter and specific settings were a little different, but for the most part I was able to get Dune sounding IDENTICAL with minimum effort. When I say identical I mean in the fundamental areas like how an oscillator sounds under specific conditions, the harmonics etc. I am not implying in any way that Dune supports all the effects possibilities that exist on the Virus, which counts for a lot. It does have a nice sounding reverb, chorus, phase, delay, distort and EQ though.
Barnelby
28.01.2011, 10:10 PM
Its funny that you mention that, because just recently I was messing with different filters in tandem and noticed some sweet spots where there is some good pluck potential with a low and hi pass together.
As far as effects go, I agree that dune's are good, but the TI2 still has the best effects I've ever heard. U-he's Uhbik effects are awesome (and the demo is great, limitations aren't that bad considering), but there is NOTHING like running my mopho through the virus effects and twisting it to the next dimension....h:eek: ly crap!
But with the release of dune, it seems like yet more evidence that software plugins are getting better and better at an alarming rate. In my opinion, and I'm sure I'm about to take a beating for this, but I don't see how it would be possible for digital hardsynths to always have relevance. Just look at how fast computer technology itself is exploding...it doesn't take a psychic to see that SOME day, maybe not soon, maybe not even a long time from now, but there WILL be a plugin that will dethrone the (current) access virus.
(insert beating here)
Maybe that's not all bad though...perhaps the toppling of the digital synth market will bring on a new age of analogs...
Or maybe there will even be a day when plugins sound better than analogs....(queue creepy sci-fi sounds...made with dune):grin:
But with the release of dune, it seems like yet more evidence that software plugins are getting better and better at an alarming rate. In my opinion, and I'm sure I'm about to take a beating for this, but I don't see how it would be possible for digital hardsynths to always have relevance. Just look at how fast computer technology itself is exploding...it doesn't take a psychic to see that SOME day, maybe not soon, maybe not even a long time from now, but there WILL be a plugin that will dethrone the (current) access virus.
This is exactly what I've been saying. And yes, you may get a beating here because of the passion for the Virus... I think I am quickly becoming hated here (which is unfortunate because it is my honest intention to own a Virus again one day and share knowledge / learn from others here).
The progress made in the softsynth arena, even just in the last 2-3 years has been staggering to my ears, and more and more I've heard confirmed reports of some very big name producers using a pure software set up, at least for some tracks.
Ten years ago, all I wanted was a Virus. I was convinced (and probably right) that it was my only option for producing the kind of music I wanted to. However, I was going through a divorce at the time, constantly putting money into a house that was about 4 times larger than I needed, and for whatever reason could not convince myself to take the plunge. Software synths were nowhere close to the capabilities of the Virus.
But, the software has gotten MUCH better. Quadcore CPUs which are much faster than their predecessors are the norm. The advancements on the software front have gone up multiple orders of magnitude while the advancements in hardware are small and incremental in nature.
I don't think software is the death of hardware... What do you think powers the Virus? Its just a computer running software with a tightly integrated control surface and optimized OS.
I sometimes struggled with MIDI timing issues even back in the 80s when I was using the Atari ST as my sequencer. When I first started playing around with modern software DAWs, the tight workflow and lack of timing issues immediately struck me as "this is it... this is what I've been waiting for". However, I wasn't too impressed with most of the soft synths I heard at that time. As you said, much is changing and it is changing fast.
This does not mean I am anti-Virus... I still love these machines and I hope that the whole "total integration" thing works out and reaches a point where it is seamless, timing-issue-free, and provides more than 3 USB outs.
But in the meantime I've got a few really nice plugins in my arsenal, and Dune was truly a milestone in softsynth development IMO.
Barnelby
29.01.2011, 01:49 AM
Yeah, I guess it may have been a little extreme to assume that the digital synth world will suffer greatly as plugins get better. Obviously, digital synths will just get better, too. (Check out John Bowen's solaris if you haven't yet). However, as a producer, I feel like if my options are between a 2 thousand dollar piece of hardware and an equal or better plugin and a controller of my choice for an eight the price, the decision is a no brainer. As a performer, though, of course having a keyboard synth would be the obvious choice.
Yeah, I guess it may have been a little extreme to assume that the digital synth world will suffer greatly as plugins get better. Obviously, digital synths will just get better, too. (Check out John Bowen's solaris if you haven't yet). However, as a producer, I feel like if my options are between a 2 thousand dollar piece of hardware and an equal or better plugin and a controller of my choice for an eight the price, the decision is a no brainer. As a performer, though, of course having a keyboard synth would be the obvious choice.
When we bring cost into the equation, software really wins.
In the case of Dune it's probably like $139 one time fee versus 3 grand for every Virus you want to match each individual DAW instance :) (assuming of course you have a good CPU).
Even if I subtract latency issues, I don't think there's any way I could get the same polyphony and richness as taking a great Dune patch, cloning it in the DAW and detuning or modifying slightly then layering with another instance (and even that is rarely necessary).
You cannot copy and paste a hardware synth to clone it :)
feedingear
29.01.2011, 08:58 AM
Having a play with Dune at the moment and honestly think it sounds pretty dull... has that same soft, plasticky tone that a lot of plugins tend to have, no bite or warmth or even a sense of character to it. That could just be the presets not being particuarly well programmed however.
As far as going to the effort of cloning and duplicating a Dune patch in your project, I really dont see any difference to doing that with a TI then either letting them run together, or bouncing down to audio if you are experiencing note stealing... It is such a tiny thing to adjust as part of your workflow and the sound benefits are clearly there.
I agree there are sound benefits, but I feel like once I've bounced something down, the audio clip is far less flexible. Can't do much with it in real-time after that point which for me takes away some of the inspiration/creativity.
infraction
29.01.2011, 05:36 PM
I had a Virus briefly and I did not hear any mind-blowingly good plucks.
Haha that's a good joke that :D
Haha that's a good joke that :D
Not joking.. I mentioned before that I only went through the factory patches. I have no doubt the box is capable of good plucks, I just didn't hear them while going through factory patches.
infraction
29.01.2011, 06:17 PM
Not joking.. I mentioned before that I only went through the factory patches. I have no doubt the box is capable of good plucks, I just didn't hear them while going through factory patches.
That might be the problem ;)
Barnelby
29.01.2011, 06:45 PM
Alright alright alright everybody just calm down. Maybe the best way to get to the bottom of this whole pluckin' thing would be a little show and tell. I'm not with my virus right now, but later today when I have a chance I will record a few examples of my frustrations with trying to make plucks. For now though, here is a little clip I just made in Dune:
http://www.mediafire.com/?b4j4jwkfr06vkoi
Im pretty sure you can download that even if you don't have a mediafire account, but if you guys have any problems I will upload it again another way.
So just to clarify- What is in question right now is NOT sound quality, not warmth, not body, not all the things that the virus OBVIOUSLY still has the upper hand on.
Fact of the matter is, I just clicked a random preset and effortlessly achieved a nice distinct pluck sound with ZERO tweaking. And that is my entire concern/confusion/case in point.
Like I said before, I BELIEVE that the virus can do anything...I am still fairly inexperienced with the thing, so I still have a lot to learn. It is just this strange quality of these plugins being able to excel at something seemingly so simple so quickly that has me scratching my head.
But enough talk, back to the point:
To those who say they can get some great pluck sounds with the TI series virus.....
let's hear em! :D :D :D
That might be the problem ;)
It's a problem that's not limited to the Virus... on almost all of my favorite VSTs, I have stumbled across third party soundsets (often that were free of charge) which really blew me away.
Zebra2 is really good like that.. there is such a vast library of free sounds out there, you can almost never get bored.
Dune is such a simple beast to program that I find myself almost always creating the sound I want on demand rather than searching for one.
Barnelby
29.01.2011, 07:23 PM
Alright so like I said I'm not with the virus but I did grab an audio file out of one of my tracks that I think shows my case in point well enough:
http://www.mediafire.com/?bk6d13qtntyw2d7
This may not be the best example...I'll throw something down later when I get a chance, but my concern is definitely present in this clip.
I think this was using a ramp LFO to modulate volume, so the plucks are only heard at the beginning of each chord... Its really hard for me to get any kind of pluck that isn't just kind of limp and frail like that
Someone show me the way.
I threw this together quickly by tweaking the first Dune preset a bit. The point was to capture the attack characteristic of a pluck... that initial assault on the eardrums that makes the pluck what it is. Here it is going from the "dog whistle" freq zone to audible, but slowly. I put a crummy sounding kick in because I think one characteristic of a pluck should be able to slice through other elements in the mix and to illustrate the point.
http://www.mediafire.com/?y243brtgnbltfdv
Of course, as I open up the cutoff, it is no longer really a pluck anymore and becomes more of just a trance synth sound, but since the cutoff characteristic is the key element to this sound type, hopefully the point is illustrated.
Alright so like I said I'm not with the virus but I did grab an audio file out of one of my tracks that I think shows my case in point well enough:
http://www.mediafire.com/?bk6d13qtntyw2d7
This may not be the best example...I'll throw something down later when I get a chance, but my concern is definitely present in this clip.
I think this was using a ramp LFO to modulate volume, so the plucks are only heard at the beginning of each chord... Its really hard for me to get any kind of pluck that isn't just kind of limp and frail like that
Someone show me the way.
Wow, please don't take this the wrong way but there is absolutely NOTHING about that patch that has anything to do with a pluck. It's what I'd call more of a detuned stab sound. I think that is your point though, right?
Having a play with Dune at the moment and honestly think it sounds pretty dull... has that same soft, plasticky tone that a lot of plugins tend to have, no bite or warmth or even a sense of character to it. That could just be the presets not being particuarly well programmed however.
Take a listen to the 30 second clip I posted called PluckBite and let me know if you hear what I'm hearing there. I don't know if any of the presets have such a dramatic point on them, but I did that literally in a few seconds of tweaking the filter and amp envelopes. That's one of the beautiful things about Dune, how quick you get from concept to goal. Literally seconds, every time for me.
Here I am using Zebra2 to illustrate a point about the slope of the filter modifiers.
In the first 18 seconds, listen for the subtle but noticable change. I am NOT working the cutoff filter here. I have used Zebra's v-slope filter in 8sx mode option. The change you hear to the sound is simple changing the curve of the attack slope. Notice the effect it has on the bite? I am moving it very slowly to make the point. At 18 seconds I slide it back all the way to the left, and you can hear it return to how it is when the clip beings... then I reach for one of the cutoff filters at about 23 seconds in (this patch actually has 2 VCF filters on it) and open it up for the last few seconds of the clip.
http://www.mediafire.com/?oqv1aei57g2fzn3
Hope that gives an example of what I mean by the slope of the filter envelope being the "sink or swim" element of a pluck sound. I am not sure what options the Virus has here, but the envelopes of all the factory patches sound very linear to me... so different, non-linear slope types might be sort of a buried option on the Virus?
By the way, I've been talking alot about Dune here. Zebra2 is also a freaking monster synth that I dare say is probably not only capable of everything the Virus can do, but due to some of special oscilators, someone really skilled in modular synthesis can probably create a whole category of acoustic sounds with it that would be harder or impossible on the Virus, simply because the Virus is not modular at all.
Wow, I can't believe no responses yet after Barnelby and myself went to the trouble to set up softsynth examples. I was really hoping with all the Virus visibility here we would hear some really good examples of Virus aftermarket soundset plucky sounds (or, better yet, factory patches I may have overlooked)?
It's put up or shut up time gentlemen!! (hehe... no attacks please, I'm just being facetious to get some involvement here..., I KNOW the Virus is capable of a good pluck I just want to hear the difference.. hoping someone can convince me of something other than my belief that the difference between hard and softsynths is indistinguishable once mastered and ripped to MP3).
Edit: Also wanted to point out you can upload a file to mediafire without creating an acct and all that (it's temporary of course).
Barnelby
30.01.2011, 02:47 AM
Alright so I admit that my first clip wasn't very good...ok it totally sucked.
But I've been tweaking away for a while now and have gotten some pretty decent plucks...all about balanicing the env. amount, resonance, and both filters. I used both low pass in this.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ya0qob1kjv0i53t
infraction
30.01.2011, 04:46 AM
Wow, I can't believe no responses yet after Barnelby and myself went to the trouble to set up softsynth examples. I was really hoping with all the Virus visibility here we would hear some really good examples of Virus aftermarket soundset plucky sounds (or, better yet, factory patches I may have overlooked)?
It's put up or shut up time gentlemen!! (hehe... no attacks please, I'm just being facetious to get some involvement here..., I KNOW the Virus is capable of a good pluck I just want to hear the difference.. hoping someone can convince me of something other than my belief that the difference between hard and softsynths is indistinguishable once mastered and ripped to MP3).
Edit: Also wanted to point out you can upload a file to mediafire without creating an acct and all that (it's temporary of course).
I don't know about the rest of the people on here but I didn't buy a hardware synth to have showdowns on internet forums over hardware vs software. But just to add to the virus front I don't even have to bounce down any audio, there's enough examples of viral plucks here:
yiUsIRYcMtc
and here:
rUif508d-gM
and
yn1oZRffcT0
Barnelby
30.01.2011, 05:57 AM
Haha.
I feel you. I didn't really intend anything like that; I was going for more of a comparing notes vibe. I like hearing what other people can do, I learn from that. I would REALLY like to hear more home made virus making pluck sounds, but I guess if you guys just wanna sit on the sidelines while me and MTCB master our craft, so be it. :rolleyes:
infraction
30.01.2011, 07:48 AM
I feel you. I didn't really intend anything like that
Just these topics are lame, it's similar the whole analog vs digital argument where you got people fighting over what sounds better when they probably forget why they bought the things in the first place.
Forget comparisons and actually use the tools.
Here's a quick pluck btw did it on headphones.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7IYE1EYS
Infraction I was not able to download from megaupload without a gazillion popups and my antivirus telling me I will have herpes if I go there.
Can you try mediafire? Doesnt require an account to upload, would love to hear what you did.
Also regarding the videos from elsewhere... Not that they sound bad but I would like to hear user-submitted material.. there are a gazillion things that can be done with compression amoung other FX that makes it harder to see what the synth is really capable of.
My earlier comments, as noted, were intentionally playful... I am not looking for any sort of contest here, just trying to discuss the differences between softsynths and hardware.. Dont say analog because the Virus is not analog, it is just a dedicated (but weak) CPU with an optimized OS that plays software and nothing more. My only argument has been that mainstream CPUs have gotten so good in the last few years that for the most part, one core of most people's Dell or HP laptops will now run circles around the the processing power of the Virus, and its up to Access to take things to the next level at this point.
Ok it's been several weeks now and I have still now heard one single decent example of a good pluck related sound straight from a Virus with no external FX and no references to other videos which may or may not be Virus.
After all the work we went through, cannot someone show us the kind of plucks a Virus is capable of? Bonus for default patches (but do not be hindered by it). Any FX must be provided by the Virus to qualify, if you're using a plugin for reverb or delay you are just making a case for soft synths.
Takers?
feedingear
25.02.2011, 10:30 AM
=
Forget comparisons and actually use the tools.
I'd venture thats what most people think when they read this thread update. It certainly sums up my position.
I'd venture thats what most people think when they read this thread update. It certainly sums up my position.
You realize it comes across as a lame excuse right? If the conclusion is to actually use the tools, would it not make sense to use the tools that are best for the job? The way the thread left off, it seems the best tool for this particular job is softsynths.
feedingear
26.02.2011, 01:20 AM
Infraction posted up videos of plucks of all the different sound sets, and his own file as well.
" The way the thread left off, it seems the best tool for this particular job is softsynths"
Because no one can be fucked spending the time they could be using to make music on posting up a bunch of presets from the TI, just to convince one person on the forum that the TI can make a pluck?
Infraction posted up videos of plucks of all the different sound sets, and his own file as well.
As I mentioned to Infraction, I was not able to download his example so I could not hear it, I will try again in a moment. There was no followup. The other pre-packaged demos do absolutely nothing along the lines of providing apples-to-apples comparison for purposes of this thread.
Because no one can be fucked spending the time they could be using to make music on posting up a bunch of presets from the TI, just to convince one person on the forum that the TI can make a pluck?
Perhaps because they are too fucking incomptent to take 5 minutes to post their own original examples, much less give EXACT details around filter specifics? That's how long it took me to do it.
As I mentioned to Infraction, I was not able to download his example so I could not hear it, I will try again in a moment. There was no followup. The other pre-packaged demos do absolutely nothing along the lines of providing apples-to-apples comparison for purposes of this thread.
I just finally opened it. It's a .mid file? FFS, do I really need to explain why an MP3 is more appropriate here?
feedingear
26.02.2011, 01:35 AM
I actually just listened to your pluck example. No offense, but it sounds pretty awful. How you can think that it sounds better then the factory TI sounds is honestly beyond me.
I actually just listened to your pluck example. No offense, but it sounds pretty awful. How you can think that it sounds better then the factory TI sounds is honestly beyond me.
Fair enough, and I've had the same reaction to some of the Virus-produced tracks I've heard here. I wasn't saying it was a great pluck, I was pointing out specific filter characteristics and explaining to the OP what is required for a good pluck sound. I dont have a Virus at the moment so I can't hear it. His point was that the attack and other characteristics of the pluck he is getting out of the Virus is pathetic. He posted examples to prove his point. I pointed out that the Virus presets I heard when I had one were very dismal along the lines of plucks.
Others seemed to think what I said was over-the-top, so I simply asked for some examples to be posted of good Virus plucks. Unless it's a preset, I still stand behind what I originally said that none of the presets on the Ti2 are good plucks. I also said earlier in the thread that I fully believe the Virus is CAPABLE of a good pluck, I would just like to hear it.
As I said it was never meant to be a pissing contest, just an exploration in the creation of a sound that happens to be very important in the trance genre. So create some good plucks, and post them, otherwise you're just trolling for debates.
One other thing I wanted to point out... The way a Virus sounds when you have headphones plugged into it, or you have the signal going to an amp is one thing. The way things sound once it has gone through your DAW and ends up in a .wav file or an .mp3 is something different entirely. The Virus and every other synth on the planet sounds great directly but loses something when it becomes an ipod ready file. I posted sound bytes knowing that FLS has a notoriously bad reputation for final output, at least I've never been able to get final output to sound anything like live playing.
So, its not enough to compare my sound clips to how the virus in front of you sounds. This is why I'm asking for clips for comparison.
feedingear
26.02.2011, 02:04 AM
[quote=MBTC;298948 FLS has a notoriously bad reputation for final output, at least I've never been able to get final output to sound anything like live playing.[/quote]
http://soundcloud.com/informantmusic/checkmate
Made in FL.
feedingear
26.02.2011, 03:05 AM
PS: Also, Spor. Nuff said.
http://soundcloud.com/informantmusic/checkmate
Made in FL.
Relax, I didn't say FL can't sound good dude... I said it has a reputation for bad output.. meaning by default with no other work its easy to land in a bad sonic place. Some of the best people out there use FL.
And that guy was clearly using softsynths.. hah
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