Buying either Snow or Desktop TI - Noob Questions

[12341234]

My first post here so please be gentle ;)

I have been on the fence with the whole Virus thing for a while now and after trying every VST I could get my hands on, I just cant seem to find anything suitable for what I am looking to do. Mainly pads, plucks, chord progressions etc. in the various House genres (Electro/Prog/Trance etc.) is what I am speaking of. I've yet to find a VST that can do really clean filter sweeps through the whole range... all of em seem to have dirty aliasing, distortion artifacts etc. (Sylenth, Omnisphere, Dune, Diva etc. just dont cut it for me). But with the Virus, from user demos I have heard the exact sounds I am after, so I decided that a Virus is a must for me. Now I need some help deciding which model - Snow or Destop TI? I've already got killer beats, bass and FX covered with VST's and analog hardware synths, so everything else a Virus can do is just a bonus. I should also add that most of my work with the virus will be done inside my DAW (Ableton) -no midi keyboard, so the TI aspect is a must.

My main question is (and I have searched everywhere for weeks trying to find an answer to this) in relation to playing chords... with the Snow using typical House music pad like patches (I hate to use this example, but for ease of description think mau5 like chord pluck sounds), a little delay and verb, some basic cutoff/res/adsr tweaking/automation, how many notes are realistically possible? 3-7 at the same time no problems at all? Or is the Snow with the limited polyphony/4 parts not really capable of this and the Desktop is needed for this type of work?

I would really appreciate it if someone here could describe some realistic scenarios of use, the limitations and what to expect with the Snow.

Cheers!

[Rick Boogie]

Snow is a Virus C? I think. Shouldn't have polyphony issues at all. My B will do big chords easily. I think B has 24 voice poly(?) So a Snow, or C, should have even more. No clue on using a DAW though, I'm strictly hardware.

[grs]

Snow is a half DSP TI. OR TI is a double DSP snow.
If you want thick chords say with unison of at least 3 voices then you will hit the wall with 3 to 4 parts playing chords on TI. I would think a snow would voice out with much less parts.

[12341234]

As far as I know all Virus models prior to TI don't offer the DAW like plug-in editor, rather it would be dedicated audio/midi cable connection and editing within the hardware unit itself like most other hardware synths. While I've heard some fantastic sounding demo's of the older models, the TI/USB plug-in aspect is very appealing to me and the Snow would be the entry level unit -am I wrong?).

On paper the Snow looks like it could do everything and more than what I am asking, but my question is to actual owner/users that are working with it daily and know its limitations to chime in and give me some feedback on realistic usage - specifically chord work and the amount of notes possible as I described in the OP. No one has answered yet, so maybe its too dumb of a question for the pros around here :oops: Not trying to waste anyone's time, just need some clear user feedback before I pull the trigger on a Snow.

[12341234]

Snow is a half DSP TI. OR TI is a double DSP snow.
If you want thick chords say with unison of at least 3 voices then you will hit the wall with 3 to 4 parts playing chords on TI. I would think a snow would voice out with much less parts.

Right, I get the half DSP difference between the Snow and Desktop and the 4 part vs 16 part (or patches) bit... but using one or two (or even four) simple patches with minimal delay/reverb/unison, C/R and ADSR tweaking to create a sound, when it comes to this style of chord and the amount of notes, wondering just how limited the Snow is? I mean I wouldn't be using uber complex patches (at least not the ones I create) with loads and loads of FX drenching the sound.. or trying to layer bass, lead, pads, FX etc. all in one go... I'm after simple, but big clean House style pad chord sounds.

With the Snow I'm kind of expecting that once I'm happy with a sound or part in the mix, if I want to use the Virus for other parts, I'll save the patch and midi and bounce to audio for further mix editing if necessary, freeing up the Virus to focus on something else. I certainly don't expect to do full on songs all inclusive with the snow (or the Desktop for that matter), at least not without bouncing parts to audio all along the way. -does this seem like a normal workflow for the Snow or have I got it all wrong?)...

Unfortunately, there are no shops in my area to test drive units so I'm relying on demos and user advice to make my decision.

[MarPabl]

If you activate 3 oscillators, sub oscillators and a bunch of effects, I think you can easily get 10 notes of polyphony out of the Virus TI Snow.

If you just plan to use a single Program (not 4 Parts) you can have your chords even with the most complex Programs. Even by using the 4 Parts you can get enough polyphony, just making wise usage of the DSP Resources.

Consider the Desktop if you really need to use several ultra complex Programs or you need to use more than 4 Parts on Multi mode.

[12341234]

If you activate 3 oscillators, sub oscillators and a bunch of effects, I think you can easily get 10 notes of polyphony out of the Virus TI Snow.

If you just plan to use a single Program (not 4 Parts) you can have your chords even with the most complex Programs. Even by using the 4 Parts you can get enough polyphony, just making wise usage of the DSP Resources.

Consider the Desktop if you really need to use several ultra complex Programs or you need to use more than 4 Parts on Multi mode.

Right on, thanks for the info.

I assumed that fairly basic individual basses, leads, FX would be no problem at all with the Snow... just concerned with trying to do big (4-8 note) chord pad/pluck type sounding progressions might cause problems. Seems not. If I'm working on a part by part basis in a song, 4 different parts or patches on the Snow to create one sound seems like more than enough.. I mean how many patches actually use 5-16 different parts in a sound? is that common? Wondering if any Snow users run into problems with soundsets available for Virus?

[AndrewM]

I run a TI Snow daily on my projects.. usually three of the four parts. You can get a lot of use out a Snow as long as you know how to optimize your patches. I rarely, as in almost never, run out of juice or get drop outs.

The Richard Divine soundsets are the heaviest consumption wise and they play back fine. You can get some pretty massive sounds with the virus without stacking 8 unison parts on it as well. :)

[MBTC]

Right on, thanks for the info.

I assumed that fairly basic individual basses, leads, FX would be no problem at all with the Snow... just concerned with trying to do big (4-8 note) chord pad/pluck type sounding progressions might cause problems. Seems not. If I'm working on a part by part basis in a song, 4 different parts or patches on the Snow to create one sound seems like more than enough.. I mean how many patches actually use 5-16 different parts in a sound? is that common? Wondering if any Snow users run into problems with soundsets available for Virus?

I wanted to reply to your original question, but I've already written so many of my experiences with the Virus (I had a Ti2 Desktop unit once before but I've returned to all-software for the time being) in various threads on this forum (and when I wrote them, some things were much fresher in my mind), that my best offering is to ask that you take some time to read over what I and others have written about the issues with total integration and USB over the past few years. I say that because the TI aspect and DAW integration seems important to you, as it was to me, and that was the biggest letdown aspect of the Virus to me. Also, it seems like you like pluck/pad type trance sounds, which as you know are resource intensive, and IMO this is not a strong point of even the Ti2 which is twice as powerful as the Snow. I came to the conclusion that the total processing power of the Virus made it seem like my own CPU was about 10 times more powerful. How much other Virus users agree or disagree can really come down to other things like what types of sounds they are using, the music they are producing, how much realtime control they are willing to give up by bouncing down tracks etc.

Personally the difficulty of getting the thing working consistently and dealing with latency in the DAW was not worth it, thus I went back to VSTs. Some of the VSTs I use (Zebra, Synthmaster, Dune etc) actually seem to do plucks and leads better than the Virus to my ears. I think most of the folks that are happy with their Viruses are not very dependent on the TI aspect.. maybe I'm wrong about that.

[12341234]

I run a TI Snow daily on my projects.. usually three of the four parts. You can get a lot of use out a Snow as long as you know how to optimize your patches. I rarely, as in almost never, run out of juice or get drop outs.

The Richard Divine soundsets are the heaviest consumption wise and they play back fine. You can get some pretty massive sounds with the virus without stacking 8 unison parts on it as well. :)

Great info. just what I was looking for, thanks!

I almost got a Snow last night but somebody beat me to it with the "buy it now" option on ebay :sad: Now I think it is basically down to which ever model comes up first and at the right price... I've seen a few Snow's go for as much as Desktop models in the past few months and there aren't many available at the moment.

If I get tired of waiting and decide to go ahead and buy new, considering that the Snow will play all of these soundsets, wondering, for someone who wants to work ITB as much as possible, does anyone who has owned a Snow and then upgraded to the Desktop model think its really worth the extra coin/regret it?

[12341234]

I wanted to reply to your original question, but I've already written so many of my experiences with the Virus (I had a Ti2 Desktop unit once before but I've returned to all-software for the time being) in various threads on this forum (and when I wrote them, some things were much fresher in my mind), that my best offering is to ask that you take some time to read over what I and others have written about the issues with total integration and USB over the past few years. I say that because the TI aspect and DAW integration seems important to you, as it was to me, and that was the biggest letdown aspect of the Virus to me. Also, it seems like you like pluck/pad type trance sounds, which as you know are resource intensive, and IMO this is not a strong point of even the Ti2 which is twice as powerful as the Snow. I came to the conclusion that the total processing power of the Virus made it seem like my own CPU was about 10 times more powerful. How much other Virus users agree or disagree can really come down to other things like what types of sounds they are using, the music they are producing, how much realtime control they are willing to give up by bouncing down tracks etc.

Personally the difficulty of getting the thing working consistently and dealing with latency in the DAW was not worth it, thus I went back to VSTs. Some of the VSTs I use (Zebra, Synthmaster, Dune etc) actually seem to do plucks and leads better than the Virus to my ears. I think most of the folks that are happy with their Viruses are not very dependent on the TI aspect.. maybe I'm wrong about that.

Thanks for your feedback. I have indeed read many threads here and on other forums, watched every video I can find, all of which seem to be a mixed bag of people either loving or hating the Virus... some say it works flawlessly and the sound is bar none the best, some say its total rubbish with all sorts of glitches and VST's can match the quality etc. Personally, I have never hands on tried a Virus so I do not know for sure. What I have heard in a few pro studio demos are some really fantastic pads and filter morphing (+ just about everything else imaginable)... which is why I am now on the hunt for a Virus. As I said, I own or have tried all of the latest "top" suggested VST's such as the various U-He models (which are quite good for some sounds no doubt), Sylenth (again good for some), Nexus, Korg Legacy, Omnisphere/Trilogy, Arturia, Dune and so on... all are good for some things, but none good for all. - I have not tried Synthmaster though, IYO where does this VST really excel?)

Because for the most part I am happy with my beats, bass and FX, the thing that I now always look for (in hardware and VST) is a filter section that can do really smooth, clean sweeps for this type of pad/pluck sound I'm after... it is the one part of my sound palatte that is lacking. With the VST's I mentioned the result is always some aliasing, distorted artifacts etc. as I said in the OP. And I'm not just talking about presets, I have tried programming each of those extensively. IMO without FX they sound very messy. - if you know of a VST I'm missing or one that you think is in fact capable of these "clean" pad/pluck filter sweeps, please by all means save me some headache and cash and tell me!! :-P I'll certainly give it a go.

The only synth that I have ever been able to hands on achieve this sound I am trying to create is with the Nord Lead 2x, which unfortunately, I had sell when I moved abroad. The reason I have not gone back to Nord is that I found it too limiting in the sounds I could create and the workflow a bit tedious...actually, very tedious. It could do a lot of sounds really good for sure, but it took a lot of programming to get there. To me it was great with some lead sounds and some pad/pluck sounds, FX and that is it. Price vs usage just doesn't justify buying another one. Spending a couple of hours everyday (Nord) trying to create a sound when something else (Virus!?) can dial it in in a matter of minutes and ITB, well, that to me is a better workflow.

The latency, TI, USB issues you spoke of, many say these are things of the past and have been fixed in recent OS updates? BTW I'm running a dedicated PC DAW -XP Pro SP2/Ableton Live 7 (latest update) if that makes any difference.

[MBTC]

Thanks for your feedback. I have indeed read many threads here and on other forums, watched every video I can find, all of which seem to be a mixed bag of people either loving or hating the Virus... some say it works flawlessly and the sound is bar none the best, some say its total rubbish with all sorts of glitches and VST's can match the quality etc. Personally, I have never hands on tried a Virus so I do not know for sure. What I have heard in a few pro studio demos are some really fantastic pads and filter morphing (+ just about everything else imaginable)... which is why I am now on the hunt for a Virus. As I said, I own or have tried all of the latest "top" suggested VST's such as the various U-He models (which are quite good for some sounds no doubt), Sylenth (again good for some), Nexus, Korg Legacy, Omnisphere/Trilogy, Arturia, Dune and so on... all are good for some things, but none good for all. - I have not tried Synthmaster though, IYO where does this VST really excel?)


Synthmaster is semi-modular, which means it can cover a really wide spectrum of sounds (similar to Zebra2) at the expense of having a bit more learning involved to fully master it. These types of synths are just more flexible than most of what's available in the hardware world. So, technically they can excel in all areas. What fast-tracked my love for Synthmaster was listening to some of the Rob Lee patches (I think there are four sound banks available from him total), and he really has a grasp on the kinds of sounds I originally wanted out of the Virus. You can listen to demos of some of those patches as soundcloud files from the Synthmaster website.


Because for the most part I am happy with my beats, bass and FX, the thing that I now always look for (in hardware and VST) is a filter section that can do really smooth, clean sweeps for this type of pad/pluck sound I'm after... it is the one part of my sound palatte that is lacking. With the VST's I mentioned the result is always some aliasing, distorted artifacts etc. as I said in the OP. And I'm not just talking about presets, I have tried programming each of those extensively. IMO without FX they sound very messy. - if you know of a VST I'm missing or one that you think is in fact capable of these "clean" pad/pluck filter sweeps, please by all means save me some headache and cash and tell me!! :-P I'll certainly give it a go.


It may come down to what kinds of sounds you want to achieve, but while I do find that FX are a very important part of patch creation (for the types of sounds I want), I found this to be true of the Virus too, and of course sometimes FX are more processor intensive than the sound.


The only synth that I have ever been able to hands on achieve this sound I am trying to create is with the Nord Lead 2x, which unfortunately, I had sell when I moved abroad. The reason I have not gone back to Nord is that I found it too limiting in the sounds I could create and the workflow a bit tedious...actually, very tedious. It could do a lot of sounds really good for sure, but it took a lot of programming to get there. To me it was great with some lead sounds and some pad/pluck sounds, FX and that is it. Price vs usage just doesn't justify buying another one. Spending a couple of hours everyday (Nord) trying to create a sound when something else (Virus!?) can dial it in in a matter of minutes and ITB, well, that to me is a better workflow.


I find all hardware synths have a certain sound profile, limiting their use... their flexibility is often defined by what can be achieved from the surface controls... these controls are like gold for tweaking or live play, but don't really offer the kind of flexibility of some VSTs. I guess most VSTs, individually, probably also have a similar sound profile, the exceptions being ones like Zebra2 / Synthmaster where the possibilities are so varied that the human ear wouldn't be able to pick up the profile or limit, if there even is one.
And yes, price plays a big part in it all. Given unlimited funds, space and time, maybe I'd have lots of hardware boards and not mess with softsynths at all? It's hard to imagine getting the same workflow productivity as an all software environment, just based on my experience with hardware synths.


The latency, TI, USB issues you spoke of, many say these are things of the past and have been fixed in recent OS updates? BTW I'm running a dedicated PC DAW -XP Pro SP2/Ableton Live 7 (latest update) if that makes any difference.

Well I got my Virus right around the time they (Access) introduced a 64bit driver for Windows, and I'm not sure how far things have come since then. I came to the conclusion the lack of the Virus' capability to fully utilize the bandwidth available in USB 2.0 was part of the problem, so I just decided to sit tight and see what their next product line up would consist of (seems like that's ages ago, and no sign of progress). I keep an eye on this board and elsewhere and I have not seen much good said about their software integration or any major improvements being made. I think the consensus is Access makes great sounding hardware but has yet to get their act together on software. I have seen some folks with certain setups say they have very few issues, I just couldn't tell you what their specific set ups are.

[12341234]

Synthmaster is semi-modular, which means it can cover a really wide spectrum of sounds (similar to Zebra2) at the expense of having a bit more learning involved to fully master it. These types of synths are just more flexible than most of what's available in the hardware world. So, technically they can excel in all areas. What fast-tracked my love for Synthmaster was listening to some of the Rob Lee patches (I think there are four sound banks available from him total), and he really has a grasp on the kinds of sounds I originally wanted out of the Virus. You can listen to demos of some of those patches as soundcloud files from the Synthmaster website.



It may come down to what kinds of sounds you want to achieve, but while I do find that FX are a very important part of patch creation (for the types of sounds I want), I found this to be true of the Virus too, and of course sometimes FX are more processor intensive than the sound.



I find all hardware synths have a certain sound profile, limiting their use... their flexibility is often defined by what can be achieved from the surface controls... these controls are like gold for tweaking or live play, but don't really offer the kind of flexibility of some VSTs. I guess most VSTs, individually, probably also have a similar sound profile, the exceptions being ones like Zebra2 / Synthmaster where the possibilities are so varied that the human ear wouldn't be able to pick up the profile or limit, if there even is one.
And yes, price plays a big part in it all. Given unlimited funds, space and time, maybe I'd have lots of hardware boards and not mess with softsynths at all? It's hard to imagine getting the same workflow productivity as an all software environment, just based on my experience with hardware synths.



Well I got my Virus right around the time they (Access) introduced a 64bit driver for Windows, and I'm not sure how far things have come since then. I came to the conclusion the lack of the Virus' capability to fully utilize the bandwidth available in USB 2.0 was part of the problem, so I just decided to sit tight and see what their next product line up would consist of (seems like that's ages ago, and no sign of progress). I keep an eye on this board and elsewhere and I have not seen much good said about their software integration or any major improvements being made. I think the consensus is Access makes great sounding hardware but has yet to get their act together on software. I have seen some folks with certain setups say they have very few issues, I just couldn't tell you what their specific set ups are.

Very helpful information, thanks again. Yes, I checked out (still listening now) the Synthmaster site and am quite impressed with some of the sounds in the "Factory - Big Tone - Synthmaster 2.5" demo clip. Definitely worth trying out - cheers for the tip!

Yeah, I agree with all that you said about hardware... I still use some analog mainly for essential bass tones and such, but was thinking that the Virus would get me the last bit of sounds I'm after (and more), give me ITB control as well as a little hands on tweaking if/when I want it. -- Damn, this next "Factory.." demo is also quite good! I'm going to try out this Synthmaster for a day or two and see how it gels with my setup and flow -- I'm still leaning towards a Virus, I've at least got to find out for myself if this thing is really ALL THAT.. that is, if one comes along at a fair price. And hey, if I hate it I can always sell it quickly for the same price init ;)

[MarPabl]

If I get tired of waiting and decide to go ahead and buy new, considering that the Snow will play all of these soundsets, wondering, for someone who wants to work ITB as much as possible, does anyone who has owned a Snow and then upgraded to the Desktop model think its really worth the extra coin/regret it?
Considering the type of sounds you need, I think the only issue you may have is the lack of knobs for realtime tweaking. If you'll work mostly with a DAW, it's fine. If you need live performance and you want to do many adjustments, it's more difficult on the Snow.

Considering that the Virus TI Desktop (first version) is usually sold at a price for a new Snow, maybe that's a pretty interesting option to consider :)

[12341234]

Considering the type of sounds you need, I think the only issue you may have is the lack of knobs for realtime tweaking. If you'll work mostly with a DAW, it's fine. If you need live performance and you want to do many adjustments, it's more difficult on the Snow.

Considering that the Virus TI Desktop (first version) is usually sold at a price for a new Snow, maybe that's a pretty interesting option to consider :)

Yeah, I wont be using this live at all, strictly studio work.

I agree. From all of the reading and demos I already decided that the TI2 additional features aren't enough for me to go all in for a new Desktop. I'm on the hunt for either a Used Snow, Desktop TI or a new Snow if all else fails. Unless of course I find something else that'll do the job while waiting around...

[MarPabl]

Yeah, I wont be using this live at all, strictly studio work.

I agree. From all of the reading and demos I already decided that the TI2 additional features aren't enough for me to go all in for a new Desktop. I'm on the hunt for either a Used Snow, Desktop TI or a new Snow if all else fails. Unless of course I find something else that'll do the job while waiting around...
Considering the budget assigned to those choices, the best option is a Virus TI Desktop (first generation), even the Virus TI Keyboard (fist generation) can be appealing.

[enossified]

The biggest advantage of the desktop is the knobs for programming. Deep programming requires menu diving on both. If you don't mind programming on your computer screen, then polyphony is the major difference between the Snow and desktop.

The Virus Control plugin only supports three stereo/six mono audio feeds so the 16 parts of the desktop are less useful for ITB use anyway. You can always freeze tracks in Live if you need more polyphony or parts.

I don't know what computer you have, but for me VC inside Live on a MacBook Pro with Snow Leopard works great, I have no problems with latency, clocking or crackling.

[AndrewM]

Keep an eye on MusiciansFriend.com ... they usually get returns that are in pretty good shape. ...And they always have some sorta coupon 15% off and free shipping. That's how I got my a few years back. Under 900 bucks and it still had the plastic film over the screen. Not sure if 'used' gear applies for the discounts anymore, but I'm sure if you called them and talked with them they'd cut you a deal.

[12341234]

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

It seems that the Snow will fulfill my needs.. but its really down to what I can find second hand. I'm not sure if Musicians Friend will ship to my location, I emailed support.. they have 15% off right now with free shipping so that might be a decent deal. There aren't any stores locally, well there are a few distributors selling online, but their prices are jacked up like an additional 30%!! Crazy. So it seems that I have to stick with Ebay.. but I'm also wondering about the power supply, the USA is different than here -220v in Asia where I'm currently located. Sent an email to Access, so we'll see what they have to say.

[feedingear]

The power supply for the TI is universal so you can gig it anywhere. Just get the appropriate converter for the cable from any hobby/electrical shop. I run a US TI in Australia and have never had a problem.

[12341234]

The power supply for the TI is universal so you can gig it anywhere. Just get the appropriate converter for the cable from any hobby/electrical shop. I run a US TI in Australia and have never had a problem.

Yep, Access support confirmed this today. Cheers

[DarkstaR]

TI Snow polyphony is fine. Definitely >10 voices unless you deliberately try to max it out (Grain Complex where it's not needed, long reverb and release tails, 8x unison etc.). More like >20 with sensibly programmed patches and close to double that with really simple ones. If you have some good effects, you don't even need to use the Virus's built-in reverb (though it sounds excellent).

My only concern is that you won't be happy with the Virus either. You've already tried some of the very best virtual analog plug-ins available. If you can't get good Electro/Prog/Trance patches (which is basically what those plug-ins were made for) out of them, I don't see how you could succeed with the Virus. Lots of producers use the plug-ins you mentioned to produce very "professional" sounding records.

[12341234]

TI Snow polyphony is fine. Definitely >10 voices unless you deliberately try to max it out (Grain Complex where it's not needed, long reverb and release tails, 8x unison etc.). More like >20 with sensibly programmed patches and close to double that with really simple ones. If you have some good effects, you don't even need to use the Virus's built-in reverb (though it sounds excellent).

My only concern is that you won't be happy with the Virus either. You've already tried some of the very best virtual analog plug-ins available. If you can't get good Electro/Prog/Trance patches (which is basically what those plug-ins were made for) out of them, I don't see how you could succeed with the Virus. Lots of producers use the plug-ins you mentioned to produce very "professional" sounding records.

Thanks for your input. Yes, after all of the feedback and further research on it, I think the Snow is easily capable of obtaining the sound(s) I'm after. Better sound, more capable, quicker, less tedious workflow and less CPU load = over all winner.

This is/was also my concern. I should clarify a bit, the VST's I previously mentioned definitely are great for some things, I do use them a lot for certain staple sounds I've programmed, but IMO not so good for the specific sound/filter work I described. Yes, with stacking a few different plugs, a lot of programming, external processing (long chains of filter, EQ, compression, FX etc.) and careful automation, after hours of tweaking I can get close to this sound I'm trying to create, but never 100% happy. They all seem to have these artifacts that for me just aren't at that level I'm trying to reach, yet. Many could say I'm being way too picky, but frankly I'm at a point in my career where almost 100% isn't good enough anymore. If anything, I need to be more picky and more critical of the units/VST's I use and get the sounds from head to audio, spot on in the shortest amount of time possible to keep things flowing.

Yes, I have convinced myself that Virus is the solution.. have I tried it yet? No. As soon as I can find one at a fair price, I will find out first hand. Maybe I will be disappointed and go back to Nord, Moog, Roland, the endless patching, tweaking, bouncing and processing for these sounds. I know from experience that with A LOT of work, it is possible with these hardware synths - fantastic sounds, but at a premium cost in terms of cash and workflow, not to mention studio real estate and regular maintenance issues. Anyway, hopefully I'm right and the Virus will make life easier and better sounding for me. We'll see.

BTW if anybody in London or south UK has a Snow or Desktop model and is looking for a quick cash sale, I'm your guy, please do PM me! :)

[MBTC]

I don't want to discourage you here but I think you'll find DarkstaR is correct. The top VSTs of today are capable of sound as good as (or arguably better than due to flexibility) the Virus. That said, I have seen some folks comparing the sound of the Virus against VSTs in the wrong circumstances. For example, Zebra, Massive, Sylenth, etc will only take you so far (not very) with the presets. You need to invest time to get good with each synth and its particulars, or just buy some very high quality libraries. For example, compare out of box Massive sounds with these: http://www.adamszabo.com/massive-soundset. He is one of the best sound designers around, he also has a Virus but has said he uses softsynths more. Howard Scarr, the guy who perhaps has some of the most notoriety of any Virus sound designer now works for u-He (Zebra/Diva creators) fulltime, to give you an idea of where things have gone as VSTs and CPUs have gotten better.

When some folks say hardware sounds better than VST, I wonder if they are listening on equal ground. For example, headphones direct in the Virus, compared to headphones into speaker jack into back of PC or similar. For example I use both PC (FLStudio) and Mac (Logic Pro), and have many of same VSTs installed on both and transfer patches between them. With headphones direct into the Mac, everything sounds richer, more detailed, more expressive and far more inspiring on the Mac audio port (converters maybe?) but I think that's because of the different signal path for the audio out. Same synths, same patch, same headphones etc... as far as I know the only difference is the signal path, there is something in the signal path on the relatively cheap speakers I have on the PC at the moment.

In the end, it does not matter because by the time in ends up rendered to a track, there is absolutely no discernable difference in audio quality. The same will be true of any hardware synth -- there have been many tests done to see if anyone could consistently distinguish hardware from software synths in a track and to my knowledge it's never been done. Even Moog recently acknowledged there is no difference in sound, and that the real value of buying their hardware was for inspiration (which I agree with and is fully understandable).

Anyway I don't want to perpetuate any sort of hardware vs software debate because I like them both (and the inspiration factor of hardware, the value for live play, and the sheer sexiness of the blinking lights etc of the Virus has never been in doubt!).

I did also want to address that you said you wanted to get from point A to B faster. If you're looking to avoid a DAW, then the Virus might help in that regard, but if you are heavily DAW-reliant I think you will find the Virus actually forces you to re-think your workflow, slowing you down and leaving you fiddling with things you didn't have to in the past.

If I turn out to be wrong, please do update us here :)

Good luck.

[12341234]

Cheers for the input. I'm with you on most of that... and in fact since my first post here, due to the lack of secondhand Virus' up for sale (at reasonable pricing that is -there was a Virus C on ebay this week going for £1000!! crazy...) I have been forced to rethink everything. I decided that while I'm waiting for a Virus, I might as well go back to the drawing board, focus and really try to design the sounds I'm after using the gear I have at hand. As I said before, I have my drums, basses, leads pretty much nailed down, its those big lush plucky type pads that are driving me mad. Every VST I try seems to fall short in the filters department. Automating and really opening up those filters without all of the distorted aliasing artifacts is what I'm talking about. Diva, Strobe and Operator are the only plugs that I find can get in the ballpark of say a Nord or Moog. Yeah, I know, if that is the sound I want, then buy those synths and be done with it. Well, as previously stated, it comes down to money, workflow and space. Why spend £4000. (again) on two of these when a desktop Virus can do all of the above and a hell of a lot more for under £700.? That is my hope anyway. From most of the demo's I have heard online, the Virus seems to excel in this 'filter department, which is why I want one ;) It seems that by using a Snow or Desktop model, using the ITB editor and minor hands on tweaking, it will be a very quick and smooth workflow. I dunno, maybe I have it all wrong. Like I said, with the VST's mentioned I can get close, with hours of work, loads of stacking and processing plugs, it's passable.. but I do notice the differences. Am I the only one? IMO for these types of sounds VST's just aren't quite there yet. And BTW in terms of sound design, I very rarely if ever use a stock preset. Usually they are just a starting point, inspiration to build upon or I go directly to an init patch and build my own sound from scratch. I do indeed have a few of Szabo's preset packs as well as his JP-8000 VST.. I find some to be quite good, while others complete rubbish, all down to personal tastes I know. And so my quest continues.

Anyway, thanks for all of the feedback, much appreciated and I'm totally open to more suggestions from you guys... think that a VST - a certain patch can do this sound I'm after? I'll give it a go! If you don't mind sharing info, I'm all ears!!

[12341234]

UPDATE... so after 6 months or so of being sniped I FINALLY won an eBay Virus auction!! :D YAY for me. Snagged a new condition Snow for half retail price. Fortunately my brother lives close to the seller and was able to go hands on test it before paying cash. On its way to me now... in the meantime, can anyone suggest some fantastic tutorials and patch libraries for it? Just to give me a head start really.

I'm sure I'll have questions and comments to share after I get the hang of it... will post up laters

[boreg]

On its way to me now... in the meantime, can anyone suggest some fantastic tutorials and patch libraries for it? Just to give me a head start really.

Congratulations!
Maybe it's obvious, but

Download all free patches from the Access Virus official site (http://virus.info/page/render/lang/en/p/15/do/Support_contact_and_resources.html); go over them study the ones you find interesting (most patches by Richard Devine are downright crazy btw :twisted: );
Watch all "Virus bootcamp" videos (on the same site or on Vimeo), they are short and to the point;
Study "Programming Analogue Synthesizers" by Howard Scarr (should come with your Snow, also available for free download from the Access Site). Lots of good stuff there - general info and Virus-specific;
There are some "making XX sound on Virus" videos on YouTube (just do a search) - pretty basic, but somewhat useful; and also Virus masterclass (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug04/articles/accessvirustips.htm) from SOS.

hope this helps ))

EDIT: sorry, didn't notice the keywords "meantime" and "head start" ))
So, ignore the first point - everything else you can do while waiting for your Snow to arrive.

[12341234]

Congratulations!
Maybe it's obvious, but

Download all free patches from the Access Virus official site (http://virus.info/page/render/lang/en/p/15/do/Support_contact_and_resources.html); go over them study the ones you find interesting (most patches by Richard Devine are downright crazy btw :twisted: );
Watch all "Virus bootcamp" videos (on the same site or on Vimeo), they are short and to the point;
Study "Programming Analogue Synthesizers" by Howard Scarr (should come with your Snow, also available for free download from the Access Site). Lots of good stuff there - general info and Virus-specific;
There are some "making XX sound on Virus" videos on YouTube (just do a search) - pretty basic, but somewhat useful; and also Virus masterclass (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug04/articles/accessvirustips.htm) from SOS.

hope this helps ))

EDIT: sorry, didn't notice the keywords "meantime" and "head start" ))
So, ignore the first point - everything else you can do while waiting for your Snow to arrive.

Nice one! Will check out all of the above. Yeah, the Snow should arrive this weekend, so this will keep me busy the next couple of days. I've done a few searches and found loads of patch libraries... just gotta figure out which ones would be worth purchasing..

Cheers