Korg Re-Issue mini-MS20 Monosynth!!!!

[namnibor]

NAMM 2013 is pretty exciting. Back in 1982 I learned synthesi after 10 years of formal classical piano and reed training on the original korg MS20 and this new re-release is 86% of size of original but SAME designers of the original MS20 made an ALL two VCO/VCA/VCF LPF and VCF HPF....carbon copy of original with patchbay and all and same exact sound and behavior but instead of 1/4' patchbay inputs, they are all 1/8 and comes with 10 patch cords and only has midi in for note-on and usb for recieving/transmitting note-on, and of course analog cv so it can be connected to other analog gear or outboard stuff and shipping projected March for MAP $599. usd. http://www.korg.com/MS20mini
I think I will be adding this to my set-up because the original on ebay at any given time is well over two thousand usd...eeek! Wish I had kept mine! Anyway, this is 100% analog and in my opinion, knowing what this can do with fully resonate and self-oscillating both LPF and High Pass Filters and crazier alien-contacting sounds than everything but perhaps an expensive classic Moog; this revelotion of true analog is really exciting and will just tell you would get a much more versatile true analog synth and better made than the current arturia minibrute for just a hundred bucks more....thought to share and wondering if anyone else had twiddled original korg MS20 years ago as well and thoughts on this cool new beast? It INDEED is a modular monosynth and can sound fat and juicy and as rude and rip your face off in a turnof a few knobs....no presets--all hands-on back to basic synthis bandcamp!
Robert

[TweakHead]

yeah... Korg is definitely trying to get my money with this one...

also check the new Moog, with the noise generator and distortion section on the filter... I just think it's a little to expensive the Moog one, specially after Korg announced this..

things were going well for Arturia with the Mini Brute, not so sure how it will go now... this product is a winner.

roland and the others should do the same, it would drive me mad... I'd had to take 4 jobs if that happens

[namnibor]

yeah... Korg is definitely trying to get my money with this one...

also check the new Moog, with the noise generator and distortion section on the filter... I just think it's a little to expensive the Moog one, specially after Korg announced this..

things were going well for Arturia with the Mini Brute, not so sure how it will go now... this product is a winner.

roland and the others should do the same, it would drive me mad... I'd had to take 4 jobs if that happens

Call me crazy, but I take issue with the marketing gimmiky name "phhhh-aa-ty", and brings horrible images of Kia hood-rats, e-hem, HAMSTERS in hoodies driving an incredibly ugly boxy car commercial! Also do not like the form-factor. Just me, (vohhmIT)! Have officially given-up waiting for Waldorf Pulse 2 and will get a call from Sweetwater as soon as I can preorder the Korg Mini-MS20! Price is great for exact same analog circuitry as original and although mini-me keys usually give me reason to convulse, the up to 10 SECOND envelope attack and 20 SECOND RELEASE; the mini-keys are really of no consequence because I already see this being connected to midi out of MonoEvolverkeyboard polychained to Desktop Evolver, as the only midi in on MS20 is ONLY for note-on and the USB is ONLY for rec;v/transmit NOTE-ON, so will follow whatever playing and be extra depth and craziness....and comes with 10 patchcords!! I may be able to connect my cat in some fashion to this mini-modular monster!!! GASGASGASGASGASGASGASGASGAS!

[TweakHead]

yeah, the pulse 2 is taking forever... also curious about it... but I think Moog is thinking straight on this one, with the new tendency to overdriven sounds out there. the precision on that, for an analogue, is pretty impressive, and so is the sound... and I think it looks cool, very moogy... just don't like the price. there's the chance for developers presenting products on the same price range of the minibrute and this korg ms 20, and Moog didn't drop the price... the minitaur is a joke, for example. people like features, and being able to continue to pay the rent while making music. I don't even look at stuff like the prophet 12 myself, cool and all, but completely out of my budget...

[namnibor]

Moog's marketing dept. has some impressive video's and am glad at least two USA synth makers, DSI and Moog, continue to manufacter within our country, but then there's price for that and the realized higher quality machines. The Sub-Phatty does have some impressive capabilities but if you are going to cut costs by placing a 2 1/2 octave octave keyboard on a machine that you have to press a couple of switches every time you want to switch octaves--it seems not all that intuitive to me in the flow of we musician-minded folk. Yes, the Minotaur, I agree did not catch my interest either. The Korg Mini-MS20 keys are made custom FOR it and if you look at them closely on Korg's product page here: http://www.korg.com/MS20mini They are such that for a monosynth player's fingering techniques, to acommodate them. Read the specifications as well as they are exact spec's as original from 1970's and you will see in a flash video the designers are same engineers that made original as well. I loook back and see how Korg was testing the waters for analog by the different models of monotrons they had released AND they have a few VST releases of their vintage analog synths to include an iMS20 App. I personally have not jumped on the iPad wagon. The closest to it is a Barnes and Noble Nook Color Reader which originally got primarily to read the plethora of pdf manuals and such of the synths I have because it's beyond me how so many people selling synths on ebay do not have the paper manual! Perhaps I am a bit more retentive that others but it's just as important as the power supply if you ask me!
Anyway, I actually like the no modern digital menus on MS20, just 86% of it's original size and when you see the product page and pic side by side, it's not entirely a big difference. The majority of the cut down size is actually from the original had ALL 1/4 patch bays and on this one all 1/8 inch and since they will be providing 10 patch cables, power, original manual and programming charts while not changing a thing with the sound, keeping true to original--have not been this excited about new synth release in while as it will truely augment DSI MonoEvolverKeyboard.
You are right about the new DSI Prophet 12--way out of most people's price range and am wondering for a small company, if they are planning to soon drop the former flagship, the Poly Evolver Keyboard? The MonoEvolverKeyboard was officially discontinued June 2012. They still sell ALOT of the desktop evolver but man, once you use the MEK interface rather than the admitedly intuitive, once you get used to the grid, once you realize how many parameters you can access immediately/same time and tweak on a very knobby surface, there's no looking back. I have no doubt they will sell alot of them, definitely not to me.
May I assume Access brought nothing new to NAMM? I love my Virus but have been thinking that don't you think it may be time for Access to produce a totally different product, rather than continue same product line improved? Playing devil's advocate with what I just wrote; Moog has been producing analog monosynths mainly for most part for 50 years??!!

[TweakHead]

Yeah, but it doesn't surprise me that Access doesn't have a new product at this point, after releasing the new OS just a while ago. With this crysis developers can't afford to take risks, they can either hit the market with a win win product, or they'd better hold it. And I guess it shows. I think the biggest part of the market, today, must be affordable mono synths with a nice interface with knobs, and of course analogue - which more and more people, of this new generation of electronic music, have a wish for (including myself). And I think some companies are being smart about it. Like Korg, I also think they tested the market for small analogue stuff (with the all mighty ms-20 filter, worth the money by itself) and the very tiny controllers to, that are great for people using laptops for playing gigs not having to carry a big controller with them... I'd say this reencarnation of the MS-20 reads to me like a genius marketing move by Korg. No need to spend money creating new circuit design and testing it, they already had a winner - they knew it just seeing for how much the original would go on Ebay, and the acceptance of the digital emulations of it. One has to imagine, what would happen to the world if Roland would make a reencarnation of their own legends? I mean... Why let 303 clones make a living out of their legend? And the number of plug-ins emulating their hardware classics is just beyond belief...

As for Waldorf, I think they rushed things... I think they probably didn't have more then a Blofeld painted black and a list of features to show, and if it was me behind it, I'd probably cancel it. For a bit more you get a classic with all the knob action and patching fun... The MEK was a product that appeals to this kind of market: mono analogue with knobs and small keyboard. I think that's what people want eheh. Either that, or digital with as many functions as space shuttles and a nice ergonomic interface along with it... (I think that's the virus on my dictionary)

As for Access, they would hit big with a plug-in! more so if it was some kind of modular, perhaps with an interface... yeah, there's room for digital modular to (if someone's reading this), just check how much people would like something like a nord modular g3 to become true... Just saying...

[Timo]

Regards Access at NAMM, I have been searching absolutely everywhere and even dropped a load of emails to different places but I've drawn a complete blank. In past years it's also been hard to get info on Access announcements, but there's been no teaser on their site, or on Facebook, so not personally expecting anything this time given OS v5 has recently gone gold, but the kid in me would be lying if I said I wasn't a touch disheartened.

With this crysis developers can't afford to take risks, they can either hit the market with a win win product, or they'd better hold it. And I guess it shows. I think the biggest part of the market, today, must be affordable mono synths with a nice interface with knobs, and of course analogue - which more and more people, of this new generation of electronic music, have a wish for (including myself).

Take a peek at the new DSI Prophet 12, priced at $3K (the same as TI2 kb) [1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab_Ox7NXDkk)][2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buVeoLnL3tc)]. That thing is going to absolutely fly off the shelves.

And I think some companies are being smart about it. Like Korg, I also think they tested the market for small analogue stuff (with the all mighty ms-20 filter, worth the money by itself) and the very tiny controllers to, that are great for people using laptops for playing gigs not having to carry a big controller with them...

I agree, on both counts. Korg have been very perceptive in both the economic and cultural changes the last few years. From primarily selling workstations a good few years ago, they've had the foresight to completely change their tactics and evolve with the times, and have left the other two of the 'big three', Yamaha and Roland, lost for dust.

As for the Monotron paving way for the MS20, I think we'll see more analogue re-issues. Maybe even from Roland if they wake up and get a grip, they're in a prime position. There's definately a bit of an analogue renaissance occuring at the moment.

As for Access, they would hit big with a plug-in!

If Access made a native plugin, there would be huge stakes involved. The Virus is Access' only product. If it were cracked, it would kill Access completely.

I'm quite happy with hardware, but I feel Access need to be even more innovative with sound design and performance features. I think, from what other companies are offering now, both software VSTi and hardware, even analogue like the DSI Prophet12, that Access cannot afford just to drip feed a couple of small updates every year or two and continue to price the Virus the way it is. The Virus has saturated the market, Access need to do something more radically to it to add to it, or do something different with it, or even create another product, to continue to make it relevant.

I think the problem is, or was, that Access has (had to have) gotten so obsessed with the TI element, trying to get it to integrate and work under so many DAWs, that they've kinda lost sight of what they were originally good at - the sound design features.

It's crying out for new radical sound sculpting additions, FM, new controllable wave-types, user editable oscillators, maybe even sampling, and greater performance features to revitalise the brand.

Just brings it home when you look at the Prophet 12 Dave Smith is showcasing at NAMM to be released soon, that the same money of the TI2kb will be able to buy you a true analogue 12-voice monster of a synth with 4+1 oscillator per voice and immense sound programming abilities, and on the other flip of the coin where the Virus has gotten extremely heavy competition from feature-laden software VSTi's inside DAWs at mere fractions of the cost, additionally the way the developers of such synths are prolific in adding new features...

I feel Access cannot merely afford to sit on their laurels and continue to charge such an outstanding amount in this climate without innovating if they wish to remain engaged and not fall behind. I absolutely hope they don't (fade away), I love the Virus (otherwise I wouldn't be here hosting Infekted! :) )

[TweakHead]

Yeah, but that's why I say that they should bring something new to the game. It doesn't have to be a Virus plug-in, as that would certainly be cracked and become the most used thing ever, and kill thelm at the same time, but something else. That's why I pointed the digital modular market, as I think Access could probably make a dream product on that department... Could even be hardware, like the G2, but should never (my opinion of course) be in the same price range as the virus... That would perhaps bring some more cash in, and allow them to develop other stuff... I absolutely agree with you, when you say that they should focus on developing new features, that's really what they're good at, I mean we both own the virus c (you have an indigo 2, right?) and we're here on this forum, that means a lot... The flexibility and options on the virus used to be it's main bonus... Plug-ins have come a long way, for sure, but I think they'd trade everything to get such a lush sounding filters as we have on the virus, to name just one of it's features that's killer... And that's why it continues to sell, it still sounds amazing, best sounding digital synth out there, in my opinion.

I think the Prophet is cool, but a multi-mode filter would be usefull. I personally like the Poly Evolver more, being a hybrid and all, could defenitely find a place for a MEK (even though it's a bit expensive, on ebay..)... But, to finish, I think they would really shine with another product, either software or hardware, or maybe a combination of both, like Maschine, priced lower then the virus and take it from there...

[namnibor]

Ditto--everything Timo stated!

I also forsee the used analog synth market to see ALOT of (for instance) Andromeda's being sold on ebay soon to fund say DSI Prophet 12. Realistically, the economy is SLOWLY coming back, but those feeling that are those that really did not get hard mid-2007+.
DSI Prophet 12 total specs have not been released as of yet but Dave Smith himself proudly states they took the best elements of the Evolver/PolyEvolver and the Prophet 08 and newer technology realized in developing the Tempest with Roger Linn. So, there's speculation that it very-well may be a mega-hybrid with a heavy-leaning toward the Analog. Having been in-contact with DSI Customer Svc this Fall and Winter quite alot regarding the two MonoEvolverKeyboards and realizing elements of it. They are a small company that has awesome customer service and build quality. In case someone does not know this; when Sequential Circuits firstly went belly-up (with lessons learned by a small company about how to manage overhead--since), Dave and John Bowen went onto Yamaha for a very short time to develope but Yamaha was not willing to take the chances on the new technology/synthesis techniques but Korg DID--that's how Dave brought the world the Wavestation Series Keyboards and the two rack units SR and A/D. Pretty risky on Korg's part because at that point and time, Korg was just climbing out of the ashes of temporarily having Yamaha keep their own competitor from going bankrupt. Korg showed then their continual unabashingly willingness to innovate and take a chance with Dave Smith, incidentally, the father of MIDI.
DSI remains a very small company and would dare to say smaller than Waldorf and Access by far and a recent colloquiem at a University, Dave Smith stated he wished his company to stay exactly that--a small company bringing innovative and fun instruments for musicians.

That said, I can only deeply hope that NAMM 2013 has made namely Access and indeed Waldorf wake-up! You have a small company that has STILL been pretty much working out their garage workshop in Sweden, Elektron, and they are gaining momentum because of INNOVATION and taking chances. Their instruments are incredibly versatile and will humbly state I am not exactly a slow learner but in having one of their first incarnation Monomachines for the extensive external and internal midi sequencing and multiple synthesis techniques--I have put that on hold until mastering a few other things because it's the deepest thing encountered thus far. Elektron released weeks before Namm the Analog 4 that still will have zillions of features added as they continue developement and they are selling them as soon as new shipments go out to the major shops in the USA.

There's two examples of small companies willing to take chances and bring musicians new instruments. Korg indeed is very smart and lest I forget Arturia and their MiniBrute, of which Moog specifically made a new instrument in response to it at two times plus it's price. I hope Access is reading this because we are not simply "fanboys and girls", we like what has been produced but the silience is becoming deafening and there are many options out there now to augment our Virii set-ups, but they would be silly to think every Virus owner is going to continue to save all "expendable income" (a relative term, I know), waiting to drop onto whenever new product or new firewire interface for Ti to perhaps work great on--on a "whenever timeline". There's Additive Synthesis, et al, that software developers like Alchemy are doing very well with that there's no reason these types and even brand new types of synthesis and sampling, as Timo suggested--even resampling (as Elektron is doing) and again Elektron doing innovative hardware sequencers...yes, there's a HUGE market for it because the MPC is very much has-been and with technology advancing faster, so should expectations of instruments...OR...as the pendulum swings; back to real analog and analog/hybrids. I feel better after this therapy session and time is up and your copay is....HA!
Robert

[namnibor]

There's a HUGE subculture of modular synth geeks and Access doing something that would be hardware to add to anyone's eurorack or series of modules--I think indeed that would be a reason to make me start a mini-modular. I had considered Dark Energy II until the Korg Mini-MS20 became more than rumour and speculation based on their software release of same.
Will definitely give a review here once I have the MS20 in my hands---it's so cool in coming full-circle inbringing back to 1982 where I learned subtractive synthesis on the original and once I felt secure with that, my first polyphonic synth in 1983 was a Sequential Circuits Prophet 600 in which gigged with other military guys we managed to form a band AND play out with our various crazy US Air Force schedules. Always wanted to replace it but the used prices are a few thousand. By the way, the origianl Korg MS20 was Korg's "affordable analog monosynth" back then and full-circle, they indeed are going to sell ALOT of them and dare say many more than Moog's new offering!!!! Happy Happy Joy Joy!! (any Ren and Stimpy fans?)

[TweakHead]

True. But what I meant was digital modular synths that are capable of saving the patches for live performance, pretty much like Clavia has done with the Modular G1 and G2...

http://www.clavia.se/main.asp?tm=Products&clpm=Nord_Modular_G2&clnmm=Information

I think Native Instrument's Reaktor is the thing that comes closest to it, even though it's somewhat more challenging and has an even bigger learning curve, that one... But I think a new product on those lines would probably be successful and allow for the implementation of more features with updates, having sound design as its main focus... And perhaps performance features on the other side of it, to really add something cool to the equation. Digital creation of modular digital synths that would play live on hardware, I mean. For access to jump into the analogue modular world, would take a complete redefinition of their identity since there's never been anything analogue by Access and I doubt that they're thinking about making one. I think it's pretty much like Timo has said, their main focus as been on the TI for far to long, it's natural that it was, because they're still the only company implementing their hardware synth on the daw, which is a really distinct feature. No matter how much it takes to get it working properly, it's worthy of the investment, I think. And it's still called taking risks on my dictionary. There's a reason other developers haven't even tried it yet... But I think the concept behind the integration can be expanded with more hardware, pretty much in the same way that Universal Audio is making: there's the DSP power on the cards, but it serves many features, not just one... And I always thought this modular approach could be a good test for new features, while becoming the dream of really nerdy sound designers like myself. So that would be lovely and somehow within the scope of what I think Access's development is: which is designing really killer modules in code, for dsp use. Maybe it doesn't have to go all into the virus, there could be another parallel approach to that. But that's my opinion. A plug-in would also hit big, even though I agree they should keep the virus's code where it is, not taking risks of seeing it spread across the web with pirate copies. But something else, along the lines of waldorf's Largo, which isn't a Blofeld, but has some of it's features would be cool and provide them with some income for other stuff, I think.

[namnibor]

You are right and sorry for my brain immediately thinking "hardware". There's been enough people I have read elsewhere that were not very happy with Clavia dropping the virtual modular and that's something I admit know nothing about but have heard great audio examples from.
It seems though that it would be prudent to take advantage of higher bandwidth than USB 2 and use USB 3 or even Firewire 400/800 so there's no bottleneck that the often grumpy Ti owners talk about.That way the future would have an interface path that does not stifle creativity/added features. Then again, I am really hardcore hardware and call me old school but it is what it is. I am learning Reaper but soon may change audio interface and check-out the Studio One DAW that comes with it. However, the only thing the DAW provides for me is a super flexable sequencer/recorder as I do not use plug-ins, having outboard effects is just the way I work but then again have never done any mastering or use of compression and that too may be DAW duties.
Anyway, I think you suggested a cool direction for Access to go and to of course perhaps have hardware that integrates properly at such a deeply direct level such as Firewire or USB 3 where differeing DAW's would not matter so much. Then again, tend to dream big, I do! :-)

[TweakHead]

Yeah, but it would be as much hardware as the Virus is, really. It would just allow you to edit the routing (instead of having a fixed one, even though it's rather flexible) to do, say, put the distortion before the filter section, or anything you can imagine. It's a way of combining the modules, and the limit for this is the amount of DSP available. The playing and editing of the sound, once this presets (they're really synths) are done, would be on the keyboard and with knob tweaking, and the sound comes from audio, just like the Virus.

But I really don't worry much about the difference between hardware and software when it comes to digital synths. In a way, the Virus is a plug-in with a dedicated hardware. And these days, along with the return of real analogue on the market, we're also seeing software catching up in its ability to reproduce the real sound of analogue gear: things like U-He's Diva can blow your mind! If you close your eyes, you won't tell the difference, let alone in a mix... And I think FM8 is probably the best digital FM synth out there, for example. And things like Zebra, allowing you to draw waves by hand and having such mad routing possibilities (and don't get me started on Reaktor, search for Tim Exile Reaktor's setup on youtube and let your jaw drop eheh) is something that even hardcore hardware people should keep an eye on. At the end of the day what matters is the music we make, and nowadays there's plenty of ways to sound good.

I got into this totally inside the box, and only recently got myself a couple of hardware synths, for example. Once you learn to make them sound good, even the cheap plug-ins we used to have, imagine what you can do with the real deal. I think the difference between my generation and yours, so to speak, is that we're getting to know hardware after using computers a lot, and you're doing the opposite. And it's cool. Full circle, again ;)

[namnibor]

Like the way you put that into words. Full circle indeed. Have been computer literate since Windows 95 *but* nothing as far as DAW until this past year or two. That's why I decided last year to take some sound advice and have a seperate custome tower pc built for video and audio editing duties and use laptop for everyday use and a book I keep putting-off intend to write about rather unique military experiences. Being a Type-A Personality, rarely do absolutely nothing for sake of doing nothing.
There's *ONE* vst/synth/sampler called Izotope IRIS that I want to purchase eventually. Ever read-up and see the things you can do with sound as if it were maleable clay? It's not a cheap one at $199. but would let you take a portable digital recorder and lay it next to a railroad track when train is en route, then take that sound as well (as banks of sounds it comes with) and imagine mixing slice of the stress on metal on metal mixed with say a bee's nest, thunder, and say a dash of cat's meow--then resampling, twisting, effecting, filtering, then drawing vector-like lines where the pass of the synth/oscillator's built cross over become whatever you want...! Take a look http://izotope.com/products/audio/iris/ at demo and tell me what you think? It's like making sounds with a Haydron Collider (sp?), ha!
What's cool about the "full-circel" as you wrote above, is both groups have alot to offer and learn from each, if Ego and Id is let down to do so. Imagine Access Support pulling their hair out whilst being patient with those that Virus Control issues were more times than not their misunderstanding of the computer environment? Have read some real funny threads where people having problems with their DAW, whichever it may be, yet stubornly expecting to be using skype or play person to person proccessor intensive games over internet!! :-) Ignorance is bliss to some...the red or blue pill?!

[oscillator]

I lived a period computer-free and it was nice, but when i discovered Ableton Live i jump off the chair! Simply because of the endless possibilities of DAW.
I mean in terms of workflow and unique combinations possibilities that are impossible in the 'real world'.
Iris seems cool, but i watched some basic sample manipulation around that gives you similar results. I don't like too much tweaking samples, and maybe for that Iris could be good, 'cause it gives you a sort af 'automated creativity' for new sounds.

[namnibor]

I lived a period computer-free and it was nice, but when i discovered Ableton Live i jump off the chair! Simply because of the endless possibilities of DAW.
I mean in terms of workflow and unique combinations possibilities that are impossible in the 'real world'.
Iris seems cool, but i watched some basic sample manipulation around that gives you similar results. I don't like too much tweaking samples, and maybe for that Iris could be good, 'cause it gives you a sort af 'automated creativity' for new sounds.
Both the visual artist and musician in me loves what it can do as a "tool" nothing more and nothing less. As it also has full keyboard assignment to sounds created. But, in just listening to the demo, it actually made me realize MORE I can do without IRIS using the crazy-deeper filters and mod-matirx of my Waldorf Q and of course our beloved Virus! By the way, the big Q and my Virus B and C are all equally deep, yet the Q is significantly different or vice versa, that together they are stronger than any single component. Oscillator, after hearing your SoundCloud stuff especially, I think you can realize where we can not necessarily have to buy software like IRIS nor copy it, yet be further inspired knowing our instruments are so ahead of any hardware still in sound design capabilities, that especially using say the external input to bring one's cooked-up crazy-ass alien filter-playing madness BACK into itself or from another synth (such as highly rec. microwave XT), we gain a new perspective/inspiration by IRIS or even a visit to a Museum of Modern Art and how that stimulates the creative thought processes??!! I hope I made some sense...just started first cup of coffee for day!
Thanks for the shared experience with Ableton Live as I have a Lite version that came with a Novation Remote SL61 MKII still residing in closet and keep being told would like the work-flow of it for it's intuitiveness, if anything. Have some tutorial DVD's picked-up on Reaper and like it's approach because unlike most other DAW's, YOU set-up Reaper to how you want it to work for YOU rather than the rather sterile pro tools (barrrf) approach. I also like Reaper's open source approach and constantly improving features for free given the donationware is honored of like $60. usd for vast future window of updates. The PC is simply a tool and for me, do not like to be spending more time alved to it rather than actually exploring sonic frontiers with my hardware.
Do you have an interest Oscillator, in the Korg Mini-MS20 100% analog monosynth? It in fact could be another source of running output of Virus through real analog filters and more or using cv from pedal out to activate an open filter, et al...entirely new territories at an unbeatable sound and know that the MS20 can be made to sound chaotic-rip frontal lobe out as well as smooth and nice--not a typical "Korg sound" one would identify with their digital synths, YET it's own sound unlike say a Moog or DSI DCO. These are exciting times for sound design and I know for fact there's many people that would love to have any incarnation of Virus, even if it is smothered in sour grapes, once they realize the rather silly stereotype many have mentally adopted that Virus is ONLY good for trance genre...kind of like saying my washing machine is best used for all white clothes and a different washing machine is better at colored clothes. It's ALL dependant on a person going beyond presets and diving in and exploring infinite possibilities with the tools in front of them.

[TweakHead]

I was blown away with the IRIS's videos, and I'm pretty much used to sample editing and crazy sound design within the daw. There's one thing that needs mentioning here, they have this special technology for pitch shifting that works wonders, unlike most pitch shifting plug-ins on the market, it gives you a very natural feel without the usual artificial sounding artifacts (but sometimes this is just the sound we want eheh, I'm thinking that cubase's time stretch has become a trademark in psytrance...And it sounds cheap and alien like artificial). Think of something like the Eventide H3000 hardware (and there's a plug-in version of that that I'm interested in... do you guys knew about that? interesting times indeed), in that it allows you to time stretch stuff and keep it sounding natural. Ever heard of the Harmonizer effect? ;)

http://izotope.com/products/audio/radius/

this is what I'm talking about. there's only support for the two daws mentioned, because it really integrates with it, but sounds wonderful. Because when you get into special treatment of samples, be it vocals or whatever, you want really pristine sounding fx...

But yeah, I also use my Virus as an fx unit. Have a stereo output from a channel on the daw that goes into the Virus's Inputs, just for that. If I eventually get the Korg-MS 20, I'm thinking that running even a vocal sample through it and patching craziness on tops would produce out of this world effect... And I'm a Logic user, really happy with it. But I also play with Ableton sometimes, it begun with an interest for a Live interface (also came with my sl remote mk2) and later got more interested in its features and sometimes use the rewire thing on that ;)

[namnibor]

I was blown away with the IRIS's videos, and I'm pretty much used to sample editing and crazy sound design within the daw. There's one thing that needs mentioning here, they have this special technology for pitch shifting that works wonders, unlike most pitch shifting plug-ins on the market, it gives you a very natural feel without the usual artificial sounding artifacts (but sometimes this is just the sound we want eheh, I'm thinking that cubase's time stretch has become a trademark in psytrance...And it sounds cheap and alien like artificial). Think of something like the Eventide H3000 hardware (and there's a plug-in version of that that I'm interested in... do you guys knew about that? interesting times indeed), in that it allows you to time stretch stuff and keep it sounding natural. Ever heard of the Harmonizer effect? ;)

http://izotope.com/products/audio/radius/

this is what I'm talking about. there's only support for the two daws mentioned, because it really integrates with it, but sounds wonderful. Because when you get into special treatment of samples, be it vocals or whatever, you want really pristine sounding fx...

But yeah, I also use my Virus as an fx unit. Have a stereo output from a channel on the daw that goes into the Virus's Inputs, just for that. If I eventually get the Korg-MS 20, I'm thinking that running even a vocal sample through it and patching craziness on tops would produce out of this world effect... And I'm a Logic user, really happy with it. But I also play with Ableton sometimes, it begun with an interest for a Live interface (also came with my sl remote mk2) and later got more interested in its features and sometimes use the rewire thing on that ;)

JUST like the original, the new MS20 has the best in my memory in analog vocoding capabilities as well. Guess will have to take a look at that free version of Ableton because there are some rather cool interfaces for it as well if I like the workflow immediately. I was not aware of a VST of Harmonizer but I would hope it's MUCH more economic that say the hardware Harmonizer units that used are over thousand usd...EEEK! Am not necessarily heavy user of effects, more reverb on individual on and off channels using the A and B effects send/return on my hardware mixer that is more of a pre-mixer (as I call it) to then- feed into audio interface. May have mentioned this but learned about these Kawai MX8 mixer rack units that are indeed called even Keyboard Mixers that has a signal-totally-unrelated midi in and three midi-thru, serving VERY convenient puirpose of a midi merge and locality of it in my 'U-shaped' set-up, which if on the right side of the Capital 'U' extend straight line-up and that goes alone wall to my computer desk at an angle in corner where computers are---having that midi thru located more or less at bottome-middle part of the 'U-Shape', has made a great nexus and bought two of them used for less than $100. collectively, and use one to sum the four stereo outputs of the 2 MEK's and the Evolver Desktops polychained to them because they have different output volumes inherent intelligently design, so that allows me to use primarily different reverbs selectively on mixer when and where want it. Evolver series has three different places (at once if want) you can use the delay parameter in signal of each of 4 Osc's, and it has Distortion but no reverb and reverb used intelligently (not overused) really adds ambience.
There IS seemingly an overuse of a type of "time-stretch effect" that *can* seem to get overused just like that predelay with high pass filter on a vocal every since I think Cher of all people, kind of started that effect being used to adnauseum! :-) I won a giveaway at some point early last year of a Zoom R24 (look up specs) and although has no midi, recording onto up to 32GB SDHC cards in .wav format, supposedly are able to bring those files directly into a DAW and drop in. It works as a pad sampler, able to record 8 tracks at a time, WHILE playing back tracks and recording same time...very versatile piece and has just one pair stereo outputs and 6 of the 8 inputs have preamps avail...ever hear of it? It supposedly works as an audio interface as well so if this AVID Fast Track C600 USB audio/midi interface is a pain is ass will try that before spending cash on another interface because if I do, want to fully use my Firewire or USB 3 for low to no latency.
Sorry a bit jumpy from different topics--am entertaining a toothache and cannot get in until Feb 5 and pain is too close to brain!! EEK! Tweakhead--how do utilize midi in your set-up, if at all? The Virus has like three different midi config's types, which I really have never read of ANY other synths having such versatile set-ups avail like Virus B or C. Admitedly, am still wrapping my head around deeper properties of midi and have a used thick master book coming from ebay next week. Wondering what, if any config you found works most intuitively--that's how my rather right-brained mind rolls--intuitively. Thanks!

[namnibor]

I was blown away with the IRIS's videos, and I'm pretty much used to sample editing and crazy sound design within the daw. There's one thing that needs mentioning here, they have this special technology for pitch shifting that works wonders, unlike most pitch shifting plug-ins on the market, it gives you a very natural feel without the usual artificial sounding artifacts (but sometimes this is just the sound we want eheh, I'm thinking that cubase's time stretch has become a trademark in psytrance...And it sounds cheap and alien like artificial). Think of something like the Eventide H3000 hardware (and there's a plug-in version of that that I'm interested in... do you guys knew about that? interesting times indeed), in that it allows you to time stretch stuff and keep it sounding natural. Ever heard of the Harmonizer effect? ;)

http://izotope.com/products/audio/radius/

this is what I'm talking about. there's only support for the two daws mentioned, because it really integrates with it, but sounds wonderful. Because when you get into special treatment of samples, be it vocals or whatever, you want really pristine sounding fx...

But yeah, I also use my Virus as an fx unit. Have a stereo output from a channel on the daw that goes into the Virus's Inputs, just for that. If I eventually get the Korg-MS 20, I'm thinking that running even a vocal sample through it and patching craziness on tops would produce out of this world effect... And I'm a Logic user, really happy with it. But I also play with Ableton sometimes, it begun with an interest for a Live interface (also came with my sl remote mk2) and later got more interested in its features and sometimes use the rewire thing on that ;)

Too bad that Izotope Radias you sent me does not work ALSO as standalone, as you may have see IRIS indeed does--works as a VST Plugin or totally standalone...IRIS also has properties of ALOT of other Izotope products to INCLUDE that time stretch and there's a FREE Demo to try it!

[TweakHead]

Yeah, that's the point - the IRIS does have the same technology implemented. Also worth checking out is the Sound Toys plug-ins, made by the very same guys that designed the Eventide fx. But now Eventide is getting some of them on plug-in format, native. Yeah, the outboard gear of them is just completely out of my league.

I run a simple MIDI setup, as I only have to hardware synths. I have the Virus connected to the SL, both in and out, I then have it setup as a midi external instrument on Logic if I want it to read some notes I drawn or recorded previously, or hit the automap button so the led goes off and I can play notes and record the audio directly, for example. My firewire interface also has midi interface, so that's connected to the Korg, same deal, but I can also put the midi Through on that from the SL, so I can play them both, or just one (all it takes is turning the volume down on one of them). No latency problems here.

If you're looking for audio interfaces, and you can afford it, then there's hardly anything better out there then the RME's interfaces - both in sound quality, converters and pre-amps. And you get black magic lower latencies with those as well. But they're sort of expensive. But it works with any given DAW and it's totally hi fidelity stuff.

Your post reminded me that I'm running out of audio inputs on my interface for direct connection and it would take some kind of mixer to get new synths in and being able to have them all connected at once. Would like to get one with 3 band analogue EQ, like the Yamaha's, that let's you choose a given frequency to boost, would be nice. Or something along those lines... Since you have keyboard training and all, what do you think of the keyb action on the novation, btw? I think it's rather acceptable, much more so then other cheap midi controllers I've tried. At least I've grown used to it eheh...

[namnibor]

Thanks. WHAT Korg do you own? The only Korg I have that I need to somehow incorporate in my space is a Radias Keyboard...an underrated synth IMO.
I was incredibly discriminating when deciding on a few midi controllers and the key action is indeed acceptable on the Novation SL MKII. We also get that extra midi out, which is nice. One gets spoiled with keyboard feel and action once you have the keybed of Virus, which is same on MEK by the way, so with SO many midi controllers out there, took my time. I also have an older Korg Kontrol 49 because it has a vector joystick and 16 pads for activation of whatever and this came out WAY before the Ableton multicolored pad controls out now, and it has touch sens. encoders and sliders as well--was orig. marketed for the Korg Legacy Collection but use it for my Wavestation SR rack and will eventually use it when I decide to tackle high learning curve of the first incarnation of Elektron SFX60 Monomachine, as it accepts Vector control as well---only thing is Korg put a crappy keyboard on it!! I may very well sell the still in box new M-Audio Axiom Pro 61 as that was when was thinking using Pro Tools--it has the BEST keybed and action (better than the Novation), but am also still in evolution of making my set-up be an intuitive and ergonomic space, so shall see. Isn't it really ODD to have that unused blank long screen to the top far right on the SL?

[TweakHead]

Yeah, I have the Korg Prophecy. It's a monosynth with the MOSS engine, that's also available for some of their workstations like the Karma and stuff, he doesn't look to good, but has got some good sounds on it - because of the physical modeling engine it's got. And has plenty of modulation stuff you can do with it that's quite unique. I think the Radias is somewhat like an evolution of the MS 2000, isn't it? With the step sequencer, and all...

Yeah, I took the Novation over the M-Audio because of the Midi options and the automap thing. I can actually get it to work fine nowadays, have a couple of software synths with my own mappings saved as default, so any time I load them, I can play them just like I would any synth, with no mouse and just tweaking away... That's how I found use for the faders, in a rather SH 101, kind of way, usually: amp envelope & filter envelope.

[namnibor]

Yeah, I have the Korg Prophecy. It's a monosynth with the MOSS engine, that's also available for some of their workstations like the Karma and stuff, he doesn't look to good, but has got some good sounds on it - because of the physical modeling engine it's got. And has plenty of modulation stuff you can do with it that's quite unique. I think the Radias is somewhat like an evolution of the MS 2000, isn't it? With the step sequencer, and all...

Yeah, I took the Novation over the M-Audio because of the Midi options and the automap thing. I can actually get it to work fine nowadays, have a couple of software synths with my own mappings saved as default, so any time I load them, I can play them just like I would any synth, with no mouse and just tweaking away... That's how I found use for the faders, in a rather SH 101, kind of way, usually: amp envelope & filter envelope.

Did you know that upon the demise of Dave Smith's Sequential Circuits, he went to Korg with his small design/tech staff and engineered YOUR Korg Prophecy, the Z1, and the Wavestation series? You have a piece of Dave Smith synth history under commission/brand of Korg, but there was a time when Korg was not doing well and was temporarily taken under wings of Yamaha but Yahama was not interested in *taking a gamble* on Vector Synthesis, Korg was. One f my best friends is a child of the World War 2 Japanese Internment Camps (he was a young kid with Japanese dad and American mother), and he educated me on the Cultural differences that we all could learn so much from in that the Japanese indeed believe in "free market" and indeed "competition" but there's a comraderie amongst all as a Culture in that rather than seeing even a competitor fail, they WILL and DID (as in Yamaha saving Korg for a brief time from bankruptcy) help each other as HUMANS and it also further explains how three "big brands" have uncanny ability to all be from Japan, a relatively small land-mass when taking the world into consideration. Thought you find an increased pride in ownership of your Prophecy in this info.
Another thing--any tips on using that Novation SL MKII really ODD combo joystick/modulation device that can be "locked" into certain position/function? Maybe dumb question but as I am putting final things together, thought might as well as a fellow owner. Thanks in advance. By the way, am pretty SURE they also have an Automap template for Reaper DAW now as well.

[Timo]

Yeah, I have the Korg Prophecy. It's a monosynth with the MOSS engine, that's also available for some of their workstations like the Karma and stuff, he doesn't look to good, but has got some good sounds on it - because of the physical modeling engine it's got. And has plenty of modulation stuff you can do with it that's quite unique.

hZPECFQ4NhE

1:46+ that 303 line was made using Korg Prophecy. :)

Prophecy and Z1 Moss were great. Prophecy sounded better than Z1 in some aspects, I feel, greater bite. I think they compromised the sound of Moss slightly when they made the Z1 in order for the Z1 to have more voices.

I think the Radias is somewhat like an evolution of the MS 2000, isn't it? With the step sequencer, and all...

[MS2000 fascia (http://www.synthmania.com/Korg%20MS2000/Images/Korg%20MS2000.jpg)] [Radias fascia (http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/quality,85/RADIAS-R_top-865f6921e16427db5e1f9dfc824a0c97.jpg)]

Very similar (see above picture comparison). But it's a massive extension from MS2000. 24voice poly, additional oscillator types, PCMs, drums, sequencing, stacks of effects...

[TweakHead]

Hey guys. Thanks for the usefull info to both of you. Spot on. I didn't knew that this Korg had something to do with Dave Smith, but it makes sense. I think it's a very unusual synth that's also very understated - they go sort of cheap on Ebay. I think the reasons for that must be that this thing trully looks ugly, and while having many many options inside it, the interface can put some people off. But it's capable of sounds that I certainly can't get with anything else, and it's sort of like my secret weapon - so to speak. Most of the times, for convenience, I use this do edit it:

http://www.squest.com/Windows/Instruments/KorgProphecy/index.html

Also very cool to know Prodigy used it on one of my (and everyone?) favourite tunes ever eheh... I think Prodigy was one of the reasons I got interested in electronic music to begin with.

EDIT found this video, the last part showcases the teebee sort of sound, here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzbQyitSLv4&noredirect=1

What I do love about those Korgs, both ms 2000 and the radias, is that the interface is very intuitive and sort of inviting - I could tweak it right away and get lost on it, sort of analogue looking thing and the sequencer looks very old school and cool to...

[TweakHead]

As for the Novation... Yeah, you can download their editor and get a map of one of your synth's CC numbers, and build a template for it their and save it, even with a name on it, for later use... There's a bunch of them flying on the net, made by other users, I think I've read something about it even here. The Joystick, I mainly use it for the normal settings: pitch and mod, but if I'm not into using the pitch for a specific sound, I sometimes use it for other modulations, even with the virus. There's something to it, I mean, you'd have a hard time playing with the right hand and being able to control two wheels, right? So this brings some mad modulation to the table eheh... But as for templates, I leave it alone, I can get other functions for pitch mod inside the synth's themselves if needed ;)

[namnibor]

Thus far, I have on paper and pdf format, all the midi cc mappings for all keyboards and synth rack units. It's those in my rack, the Microwave XT, Q, uO-Omega, Supernova 1--that all have extensive midi cc that even if no ready made template for the Novation Remote Sl 61 MKII, it's easy enough on paper at least to assign an intelligent mapping to what makes sense for say my own work-flow, then there's what, 4 or more banks/pages to that template alone? Then, would share my made templates. Does the midi learn work very well on external synth mod's?
The Korg Prophecy MAY be sort of an oddly looking sort, but it has controls that you wonder WHY they somehow got lost in synth design. This YT example of some ambient/techno-mix is definitely a guy using ableton and Prophecy to large extent and although not all those lists of instruments are not there, I searched my bookmarked extensive library and found this for you and only know he used Prophecy from yet another interview that he talked about this piece and synths used and ableton's reverb but cannot find that right now but here you go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYw3uV8cD8Q AND this is an official Korg video for Prophecy that if you have never seen it with Jan Hammer playing the holy crap on it as if a guitar and here's notes on it and then vi link: Straight from the Korg USA archives, here is a product overview of the revolutionary Korg Prophecy, with demos from world renowned keyboardists, Jan Hammer and Joe Zawinul. This video was originally produced in 1995:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZsJrAJXuWw Just because something is going cheap on ebay, it means nothing when so MANY notorious artists ALSO call it their "secret weapon" as you so rightly did and reason made me fine these for you, esp. Tweakhead!
Enjoy!!

[TweakHead]

Thanks. Didn't know that video! That's some keyboard playing to...Yeah, there's a bunch of synths that are very good that can be bought for a cheap price out there. I'd say the Karma (also from Korg) is one of those. A friend of mine has it, that thing would be worth it for the sequencer alone, and the phrases you can get out of it... Even to send notes for other synths... It's amazing. And coupled with external cards, there's one with the very same engine of the Prophecy, there's plenty of power and creative bliss on such a keyboard. I wonder if they've incorporated that technology in other of their products, as it makes the standard arp on most synths look like a sad joke...

From all these new products out there, I think I'd go (and probably will) for the Korg MS-20. I think the pure analogue sound would be a nice addiction to my palete of sounds, since I have the digital side of things pretty much covered between the two hardware units and the plug-ins I have, and the modulation options on that coupled with the lush sounding filter on that... I'm pretty much sold.

I think one of the things that does sound a lot better in real analogue, is like when you're modulating the filter with an Lfo and you turn up the rate to its limits, and it still sounds awsome, without the scratchy sound you get on almost anything digital doing that, for example. It produces such a luxurious sound just by doing that, it gives me chills... And the simple filter sweep with the resonance up into self oscilation has such a rich tone to it... So there's that, some high frequency stuff (that sounds a lot better to my ears in true analogue), and the really floor shaking bass sounds on those. Something about it, uh?

[namnibor]

Thanks. Didn't know that video! That's some keyboard playing to...Yeah, there's a bunch of synths that are very good that can be bought for a cheap price out there. I'd say the Karma (also from Korg) is one of those. A friend of mine has it, that thing would be worth it for the sequencer alone, and the phrases you can get out of it... Even to send notes for other synths... It's amazing. And coupled with external cards, there's one with the very same engine of the Prophecy, there's plenty of power and creative bliss on such a keyboard. I wonder if they've incorporated that technology in other of their products, as it makes the standard arp on most synths look like a sad joke...

From all these new products out there, I think I'd go (and probably will) for the Korg MS-20. I think the pure analogue sound would be a nice addiction to my palete of sounds, since I have the digital side of things pretty much covered between the two hardware units and the plug-ins I have, and the modulation options on that coupled with the lush sounding filter on that... I'm pretty much sold.

I think one of the things that does sound a lot better in real analogue, is like when you're modulating the filter with an Lfo and you turn up the rate to its limits, and it still sounds awsome, without the scratchy sound you get on almost anything digital doing that, for example. It produces such a luxurious sound just by doing that, it gives me chills... And the simple filter sweep with the resonance up into self oscilation has such a rich tone to it... So there's that, some high frequency stuff (that sounds a lot better to my ears in true analogue), and the really floor shaking bass sounds on those. Something about it, uh?
One thing that is especially something to be aware of with real analog of the like of new Korg Mini-MS20 is those "earth-shaking basses" and extremely wild filter freq/res sweeps you can get: Watch your volume levels or make sure you have great monitors that can handle it. Way back when I had the orig. MS20 I had really huge cerwin vega woofers after literally blowing-out a run of th mill but still supposedly made for extreme freq's of keyboards....cannot wait and my cat is verrrrrry afraid!! :-P

[TweakHead]

:evil: Yeah, no sympathy for people who have never blown speakers! :evil:

On Hanz Zimmer's interview on Access's website he says exactly the same: that he turned to the Mini Moog for extreme bass.

I know for a fact that most EDM producers use digital synths for Bass. It's mainly got to do with precision: since there's usually the option to lock the phase on the oscillators. Either that, or use other sources, such as Analogue, but sampled. And it's no easy task: you have to record many notes for the same note, and choose the best sounding one (for all of them)...

That's mainly what's happened here:

http://www.spectrasonics.net/products/trilian.php

This product is done like that: a lot of good sources, sampled carefully and ready to go. (I think it doesn't include the growl bass shit, however :twisted: )

But I somehow miss the all over the place, more organic and unprecise synth bass. I think the BPM has gone way up, nowadays, because you can trully get more precision with digital sequencers and synths, and sampling... I mean, you couldn't possibly expect an analogue synth to cope with 160bpm KBBB bass, that's why you'd see much more glide taking place on the 90's rave scene then nowadays... The TB303 era, so to speak... Most modern synths still sell on the basis of recreating that kind of filter for squelchy delights, and analogue warmth, and distortion still sells to... So Bass is probably the area where it shows people want the best of both worlds, nowadays...

[namnibor]

:p :evil: Yeah, no sympathy for people who have never blown speakers! :evil:

On Hanz Zimmer's interview on Access's website he says exactly the same: that he turned to the Mini Moog for extreme bass.

I know for a fact that most EDM producers use digital synths for Bass. It's mainly got to do with precision: since there's usually the option to lock the phase on the oscillators. Either that, or use other sources, such as Analogue, but sampled. And it's no easy task: you have to record many notes for the same note, and choose the best sounding one (for all of them)...

That's mainly what's happened here:

http://www.spectrasonics.net/products/trilian.php

This product is done like that: a lot of good sources, sampled carefully and ready to go. (I think it doesn't include the growl bass shit, however :twisted: )

But I somehow miss the all over the place, more organic and unprecise synth bass. I think the BPM has gone way up, nowadays, because you can trully get more precision with digital sequencers and synths, and sampling... I mean, you couldn't possibly expect an analogue synth to cope with 160bpm KBBB bass, that's why you'd see much more glide taking place on the 90's rave scene then nowadays... The TB303 era, so to speak... Most modern synths still sell on the basis of recreating that kind of filter for squelchy delights, and analogue warmth, and distortion still sells to... So Bass is probably the area where it shows people want the best of both worlds, nowadays...
Right-on! Now, unlike some of the shits on other forums that either LOVE to hate on the Virus OR seemingly always want to get into this debate over whether true analog is only VCO rather than DCO, (even Dave Smith has said many times over that the DCO is real analog with only exception of **digital stabilization** of frequency, hence no tuning issues), I DO wonder if a DCO would be more apt to get to those insane speeds with it's accuracy in and not so much 'glide'...just a thought?!
The analog halves of the Evolvers CAN get nice and juicy with right twiddling, but for LESS than a price of a DSI Mopho with it's 2 DCO's and 2 subharmonoic osc's, we can soon buy the Korg MS20(mini but same monster sound and exact circuitry VCO's) and SO easily have a very capable rumbling, growling, fell-in-your-brain-bass monosynth that's got a quite massive modulation patch-bay panel that could be enough to tickle people to grow other modular pieces thereof.
I am on speculating here but mark my words, Korg could quite *possibly* then re-release a mini-MSQ20 (the analog sequencer of same shape) and the couple others or even brand new addition to this line as well:D !!!
Back when I had the orig. and had learned much about it and was firstly an enlisted in US Air Force, we had dormatory rooms very much like college campus's do and once a week our Flight Commander would go through and perform inspections, mainly for cleanliness, etc. I had rigged the MS20 in a closable desk cabinet with a microphone connected to either cv or external audio with a program I had dialed-in that sounded JUST LIKE original video game Space Invader's laser-firing-off when the mic had detected a sound loud enough to set it off, of course leaving everything on, the small amp and monitors. I remember getting a direct call on the Motorola Radio hanging from my belt from her, my commander, asking, "HOW DO YOU STOP THIS??!", with of course the sound of laser fire from fast envelopes with pink noise and high pass filter in background of her voice!!!:shock: :twisted: :mrgreen: I did not get in any trouble and she simply unplugged everything to turn it off--just ONE of the very fond memories I have of this beast! Thought you might enjoy a blast from my intestinal past! HA!
The Korg sites gives you the specs and imagine having TWENTY SECOND attack time and equal decay for a sound that blows away any roland-ish 303 sound....have never really been a fan of 303 sound but I do appreciate its place in synt/music history. Matter in fact, the orig. 303 was NOT a big seller for roland rather, it was indeed the music and dj scene of 90's that brought that from it's relative grave and like you said (I think), roland would be truely missing the boat, since there's SO MANY imitators of that box to this day.
Lastly, if you go to DSI website and click on the huge image of Prophet 12 firstly all over page and then click on that video of dave doing a cool but short teaser of the Prophet 12...look in the background on a Prophet 5, he has a liquer bottle of tiquila WITH a FULL shot glass sitting there just waiting for him!!! I just noticed that and am sure that was not an oversight by this man!!!:p

[TweakHead]

:p
Right-on! Now, unlike some of the shits on other forums that either LOVE to hate on the Virus OR seemingly always want to get into this debate over whether true analog is only VCO rather than DCO, (even Dave Smith has said many times over that the DCO is real analog with only exception of **digital stabilization** of frequency, hence no tuning issues), I DO wonder if a DCO would be more apt to get to those insane speeds with it's accuracy in and not so much 'glide'...just a thought?!


I think it's got more to do with stability in tunning, rather then have the phase of the waves recycle for every note. Something that's a "must have" for real stable bass sounds, much used in EDM music - like psychedelic trance, the sound that's become standard for it, it's got this very precise and fast notes, creating a bass floor that's as precise as a swiss clock - maybe even more. But I think it's a good idea to have microchips tunning those oscillators while making them more able to cope with more extreme modulations at the same time. Honestly don't know if there's the option for phase retrigger on those... The fact is, it really doesn't matter much, because it's quite fun to make a sampler instrument out of that gear, takes a lot of work, but will ultimately produce a unique sound that no one else has got.

About that, all it takes (besides a lot of time, and I mean A LOT) is some kind of wave editor, such as wavelab, that lets you zoom in on the audio and select the snap to zero cross values on the waveforms - it doesn't have to be 0 phase, of course, but it's easier that way, because what you're looking for is stability for all the notes on the sampled instrument.

To give you some perspective on it:

pick your virus and build a simple patch with only one sawtooth oscillator, a lowpass filter pretty much closed and with no resonance, add some filter envelope modulation to it, this one have a little decay going, and a touch of release. Now, turn on the ARP (hold mode on), the first pattern is ok, and go to the AMP envelope, have a little decay, little sustain going, and adjust the release so as to make it feel more natural, and add a little attack so that you don't ear the click. Now, bring the tempo up to, say, 160 bpm...

If you add phase init value to it, say value "1", it plays smoothly and steady (once the envelopes are tweaked right), if you turn it off (0 value) it's rather nasty. The Virus is always set to free running mode (with the 0 value on phase init on oscillator section) by default, and that's a feature used to emulate the behaviour of analogue synths, so that every note is slightly different. But for that kind of machine gun sound (funny using this metaphor to you) it's better to have the phase locked, as you can clearly ear. And that's pretty much what we've grown to expect nowadays in most modern genres of electronic music, that's why people say something like "rock solid bass", it's very steady in both presence and timbre.

So, I'll check if there's some DCO's out there with (phase) retrig option on them, honestly don't know :)

If Korg doesn't release the sequencer, you can take a look at what they used on some of their demos, the Kaos machines. I don't know if they send real CV or just audio, with those, will have to check, but those are great for many stuff. I think the MS 20 probably reads both CV messages and audio could be used as a modulation source as well, right?

Liked the story of the general getting mad with an alien sounding classic synth, of course :twisted:

Dave has earned the right to drink his tequilla shots:eek:

[namnibor]

There WAS a NAMM video demo of the MS20 using an MP3 player as input/external sig in and cannot seem to find that video right now but it was pretty amazing how it responded to audio alone.
Just rec'vd. an email back from Waldorf in my blatant quest for sound demos possibly soon of their anticipated Pulse 2 in which they curtly stated, "We will make some audio examples when the Pulse 2 is in a state where we can
take samples ;-)" I wrapped that request in a thankyou for directing me last month in where in the USA I could obtain preformatted Q-cards for Q-rack:cool: .
Speaking of which and the tuning inherent with the Virus emulating characteristics of analog--the Waldorf Q engine has a similar tuning that actually can be altered globally or per voice/program from zero to 100% and called "The HMT function", in which the tuning is not static, but rather dynamic and adjusts depending on content and say for instance, chord structure, whether it is a Major/Minor, a third, fifth, and so on. It even shows a setting to ensure you send these settings to other instruments via midi...I am of course just touching tip of deep iceberg of learning curve of the Q and is very interestingly scientific in explainations in the manual to where you can tell a person that is BOTH a musician and engineer wrote/designed/programmed this beast. Thought I'd share this since on the tuning fork--so-to-speak! Ha!

[namnibor]

Just talked with my Sweetwater Rep and learned something new about the MS20 and was directed to product description as to have something to copy/paste here, which will follow.
Although this IS a faithful reproduction, yet 86% of orig. in size, Korg used digital stabilization on the ANALOG osc's, which is kind of coy marketing jargon to be sure to cause rehash of the grand ol' debate between VCO/DCO--with both being true analog, just the DCO is digitally stabilized for tuning purposes only. here's a direct copy of brief description from Sweetwater dot com's product page:
A Legendary Synthesizer Reborn!

Back and smaller than ever, Korg's MS-20 mini analog synthesizer revives the legendary MS-20 synth in all of its glory, but at 86% of the original size. This is no copycat knockoff either - the MS-20 mini is nearly identical to the original, with the same analog oscillators (now digitally stabilized), first-generation filters, and a VCA that's been tweaked to reduce noise. You'll also find cool new additions, including an External Signal Processor for your mics and instruments, MIDI In, and even USB connectivity, onboard the Korg MS-20 mini.
Now, although it does not SAY "DCO", and perhaps a new form of digital stabilization for as Korg states, "...with the SAME ANALOG OSC's...", has been developed by Korg but sales rep said, "You could CALL them DCO's, but the osc's behave and sound true to the orig. MS20 side by side."
What say you (anyone) about this new revelation? Would this change your avid interest?
Thanks,
Robert

[AndrewM]

I've pre-ordered mine yesterday... Can't wait till it arrives!

[TweakHead]

What say you (anyone) about this new revelation? Would this change your avid interest?
Thanks,
Robert

It just makes it better, I think. Classic analogue is famous for getting out of tune, and being sensitive to temperature and stuff like that. Digital stability only means it always plays as it should and was thought out to sound in the first place. I have no doubt they would have implemented this back then if such a thing was possible. This is like the debate about tape warmth... Back in the days, it was a real pain in the ass to record stuff to tape and nowadays people complain about digital being to transparent - which engineers would have killed for in the sixties or seventies. Technology does evolve, and I'll be getting one of this perfectly tuned analogue classic beasts for sure and not give a crap about those that say the original sounds much better kind of bull - and it's true other foruns are filled with such people to the extent I can't even read it.

I was thinking of getting an analogue for a while, to be honest, but wasn't really interested in most of the stuff out there: for it's either short on features (or knobs, or both), or way to expensive. I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mopho, for example, sounds good, but to my eyes (and wallet) it sounds like a lot of cash for such a small device and having to dig through menus and all of that - just doesn't read analogue to me. I mean, I choose the Virus C over the Snow for some reason, and I don't regret it: I think people make better sounds by interacting with the instrument in an intuitive way, much more then having tons of features packed within menus, but then... I'm still an enthusiast for the features as well, and I obviously have no trouble with software instruments either, and that's why the snow is still on my wish list - or the desktop even, but would rather wait to see if something else comes up by the likes of Access, to.

But this new Korg, I think, is packed with enough juice on it to appeal to all those who have always liked the idea of having an analogue synth, but really couldn't afford the big ones, pretty much the same way as Arturia's MiniBrute - and not so much the Moog, which is far to expensive for what it does.

[Timo]

Digital stabilisation would be good. They're still analogue waveforms being generated. It's only affecting the tuning.

It means you can always program in instabilities yourselves, if you want them, but on your own terms.

[namnibor]

I totally concur with all three posts! I am still preordering here soon but since we were actually talking about this VERY subject prior to me talking to my Sweetwater Rep., I thought for the sake of continuity and information to pass it along. It was not a sour thing to my ears either but also wanted to hear the brilliant minds on here as far as feedback.
Yes, there's some other forums that I READ and glean ALOT of great information but do not so much contribute and cannot read the illogical debate of VCO/DCO and then those vehemant virus haters that cannot get their brains out of stereotyping (an perpetuating same) by seathingly stating and believing all the Virii are made and good for are **trance**! You know the types, am sure! To me that's akin to stating a certain brand of soccor ball is ONLY good for kicking by ONE BRAND and TYPE of tennis shoe or even simpler of the likes that strings/pads only are for filmwork/soundtracks...it's a non-critical thinking argument and if I were a monkey, would toss feces at the screen because am one to detest stereotypes in first place! :p
I remember I used to have to turn on my orig. Korg MS20 for a good 15 minutes, depending on ambient temperature, just as I hear they still need to do with Moogs, before osc's would remain in-tune and stable so yes, as Timo stated, this is actually additional control with this synth.
Thanks for all your feedback!

[TweakHead]

Yes, there's plenty of people speaking stupid stuff about the virus! it's a much capable machine, even to the point of doing some similar sounds to this one's on the demo here, for example: this is me tweaking knobs with arp on hold, just a recording...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2jrez9ay2juxqsk/HypnoticMelody.mp3

[namnibor]

Good mind-trippy stuff....I love experimental tweaking and matter in fact has been a great way to hear real-time affects of different parameter changes.....and I absolutely LOVE the Virus C's "undo" button, rather than simply a "peek" function...I think all synths should have incredible edit buffers as the Virus does and have found the waldorf q is same fashion.
Sometimes I half wonder if those arguing so negatively about the virus are just full of sour grapes and bet most of them have never ladyed their hands on one other perhaps in turning the page in Keyboard Magazene, LOL! Lest we not forget the other debate of software vs. hardware, then they will say all our synths are just software anyway....oxyMORONS at their best!
Liked the trippy knob twiddling!

[TweakHead]

Thanks. Lately I've started to record this tweaking action stuff, like dreaming alive sort of madness, "get lost mode engaged" sort of thing. That's one of the things I didn't do with software, for example. Having the knobs there can really wire us to the machine, even doing crazy stuff like I did here.

But his demo of the Korg made me crazy, the filter really is lush sounding... You'd need some kind of distortion in software to get such overtones as those in this demo... Blows my mind. I'm one for the analogue filters on the virus, really like the squelchy warmness you can get out of those. Overdid the fx on this demo, like I often tend to while playing for myself, I guess - but the will of the flying carpet is not something one can rationalize much :twisted:

[TweakHead]

This two features on the King Korg got me thinking:


Vacuum tube driver circuit adds rich overtones and powerful distortion

CV/GATE OUT jack lets you control a Korg monotribe or MS-20

A real tube inside a digital synth makes you think, no? It's something within the same lines of DS stuff, I think - have some analogue circuit adding a twist to digital stuff...

I think it's a shame you only have one filter per voice, as it would make more sense to have two with options similar to the Virus: serial, parallel or split. But it's got 18 types of filters on it, and from the demos they seem to sound great. And, again, the real analogue tube makes up for that (even for using the audio in option). So it seems as though this new VA is some serious contender and will certainly be much talked about and probably featured in many tunes and live rigs.

[feedingear]

The Korg Triton Extreme had a valve tube in it - i thought it did a really great job bringing to life organ patches and some of the synths which tend to sound very thin and weak on the workstation series. I got an M3 (the next version) and thought it sounded significantly worse then the Extreme - thin, weak, and very, very uninspiring. Gorgeous keybed though.

[namnibor]

The Korg Triton Extreme had a valve tube in it - i thought it did a really great job bringing to life organ patches and some of the synths which tend to sound very thin and weak on the workstation series. I got an M3 (the next version) and thought it sounded significantly worse then the Extreme - thin, weak, and very, very uninspiring. Gorgeous keybed though.
Yes, the **only** part of the M3 I would like is that 88 keybed! Korg ALSO used "valve-tube" in their newer grooveboxes to again, according to Korg, add "warmth" but having heard both the blue and red boxes, they have that same *sound* of likes of their Kaos Synth Pads. Kind of like trying to add "warmth" to the sound of an amplified mosquito! That's just my opinion and if someone else likes that sound, that is their choice and given right to.
Again, having had a Korg Radias, I have not yet heard any demo of King Korg that did not sound like the MMT Synthesis of it's predecessors.

[feedingear]

Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt touch a Korg workstation with a 50 foot pole nowadays. Once I got the Virus, I literally laughed out loud at how bad the synths sounded on the korgs. But the tube did do some nice stuff for the organs and ep patches, which is where those workstations excel.

Re keybed, i actually had the 73 key version - i really dont like weighted keys on anything but a piano. Luckily enough we now have a Rhodes mk1 in the studio :D.

[namnibor]

Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt touch a Korg workstation with a 50 foot pole nowadays. Once I got the Virus, I literally laughed out loud at how bad the synths sounded on the korgs. But the tube did do some nice stuff for the organs and ep patches, which is where those workstations excel.

Re keybed, i actually had the 73 key version - i really dont like weighted keys on anything but a piano. Luckily enough we now have a Rhodes mk1 in the studio :D.
Yes, I too am learning that weighted, hammer-action, of which I too love on a piano, which have many years training on it. It's part of reason I am re-setting home studio set-up as the ONLY reason have kept an Alesis QS8 rompler with excellent weighted, hammer action keys because the piano sounds in particular are great and originally thought would use it's extensive ability to be used as a multi-zoned controller. It's now going to a dedicated place in dining room for using headphones and piano practicing scales and finger dexterity as it truely helps with the military service-induced peripheral neuropathy in hands/feet (no, do not play with feet, LOL).
Learned pretty quickly that although love the feel of weighted 88 keybed with aftertouch; rather have the semi-weighted action of controller such as Novation Remote SL 61MKII and Axiom Pro 61 for specific playing and midi chain of synth rack units as they both have velocity/aftertouch, BUT MUCH easier for proper attacks/responiveness with everything except piano.
Yes, the keybed of the Virus, (KB/KC) which seems to be exactly same as DSI mono evolver kbd and Waldorf Blofeld Black Kbd; is so outstanding that nothing compares!
One would think that with the proponderance of midi controller keyboards, manufacturers of same would place similar quality keys on them rather than the very "synth-action" status quo. I find the Novation and Axiom controller's keyaction the best of many tried BUT they still pale in the type of Fatar keybed Access uses. (I understand the Indigo/Polar shorter-type Access Keybeds use a different type of Fatar than the 61 keybeds).
With the above said, I no longer have thought of using Korg's M3 keybed or any fully weighted keys for anything but piano as well.
Am sure there will those that will perhaps not like the synth-action keys on new Korg MS20-Mini but with such an immediately tweakable monosynth, changing the envelope attack on the fly will more than make-up for it, not to mention nice analog synth engine.

[namnibor]

Well, since this IS on the topic of the Korg MS20 and how at NAMM 2013 a recreation of the moment Dave Smith and Roland firstly connected the first two synths with the midi standard; with Dave Smith using his then-Sequential Circuits new and first ever all analog poly synth with midi, the Prophet 600. THAT synth was also my FIRST analog polysynth back in 1983 but had to part ways with her due to military committments and mobility issues almost 20 years exactly. I learned synthesis on the Korg MS20 and have been (and am still) excited about the re-release of the 86% version talked about in this thread.
Recently have been talking to a retired electronic music producer that is weeding down a massive collection of instruments that he and his partner have accumulated over many years. Was presented with opportunity to re-purchase my analog SCI Prophet 600 in a roadcase, in great shape aside from wear on wood end-cheeks (something I will give my father to recreate out of original oak in his workshop), and one key that has been epoxied where it had started to crack at the very second to last bass octave (C1) key, with orig. manuals for about same coin as the Korg MS20-Mini and tax. Am planning on making this work for analog poly and will finally sell a lessor-used synth to justify it. Am pretty psyched!
The MS20-mini is still a consideration and am told with huge amounts of preorders, will be lucky if April/May will be able to make that choice. Am just not all that fond of leaving my financial info open-ended on a pre-order with anyone, for identity theft reasons, etc.
The Prophet 600 has an CV-IN for the filter that can be used with pedals, other synths, and with full midi, will integrate nicely in set-up. It's definitely not just a 'romantic connection' with this synth, as other than a Prophet 5, and having played friend's juno's, et al--nothing still touches this aside from of course a Moog; with the Prophet 600 actually having exact same analog osc's, VCF, 2 VCA's, as Prophet 5, with the envelopes being actually software (1982) a "poor man's Prophet" but sounds so good! This really balances out the heavy digital side of things with just one or two of it's 6 voice/12 VCO's, sounding very more warm than DSi Prophet 08, but of course the 08 has many more technical abilities due to technology.
Happy Happy Joy Joy!!:D

[namnibor]

Here's a newly performed test of the orig. Korg MS20 next to new Korg MS20-Mini http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/02/tested-ms-20-mini-versus-original-ms-20-in-the-studio-discussion-audio-photos/

[namnibor]

You do not need to understand Japanese to see the potential this best demo this far of my NEXT buy *after* new audio interface (Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6) purchase in a few weeks.
My Sweetwater Rep told me they have yet to see so many pre-orders for a single product as the re-release of Korg MS20-mini, and this youtube demo from Japan may start a bit slow but trust me, watch or do not watch your volume, especially if you have dogs in apartment/flat next to you:grin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GEOXGrF7ss&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Just imagine passing any Virus unison or otherwise through this filter? Better buy your 1/4 to 1/8 cables now and get them ready to contact alien dolphins:cool:

[TweakHead]

Yep, so you're still going for it after all, uh? :twisted:

I think it's probably the best one on this "return of analogue" race. Along with the new Moog. Listened to the demos again and was blown away by the sound. And it's got very nice overall specs on it. Plus, saw one of the mooger foogers (102, the ring modulation one) going cheap on ebay, and feeling really tempted to get it - I heard it's like a dream come true coupled with the Virus.

[namnibor]

Yep, so you're still going for it after all, uh? :twisted:

I think it's probably the best one on this "return of analogue" race. Along with the new Moog. Listened to the demos again and was blown away by the sound. And it's got very nice overall specs on it. Plus, saw one of the mooger foogers (102, the ring modulation one) going cheap on ebay, and feeling really tempted to get it - I heard it's like a dream come true coupled with the Virus.

Yes, since I decided to keep the Korg Radias rack and key/KorgKomponent Unit, there's a flat aluminum panel that you can move from side to side, depending on which side you slide the Radias Synth on that the MS20-mini will fit perfectly on!
The Moog Sub Phatty does have a more aggressive side when pushed into overdrive but watch a lot more videos because what bothers me is when they talk about "getting under the hood", and with no LCD, there's ALOT of shift/button combinations that are not even labeled and have heard reviewers state that even though there's some sweet typical Moog sounds at very low parameter settings, it kind of has no middle area and then starts sounding very much like an Arturia MiniBrute, and back to "under the hood functions", over and over have heard the words "very non-intuitive" for these button combos and to be honest, at least with MiniBrute you would get After Touch, a very easy to use arp whereas the Sub Phatty's arp is really buried in multiple combo of button pushes....it seems like a great idea but I think that Moog cut corners/costs in all the wrong areas and have not even mentioned the wee keyboard...but am sure they will sell but would bet you Korg will be making many more cash drops from their MS20 mini alone.

I have been told the best magic bullet amongst Moog's Moogfooger line is the one that happens to cost the most called the Midi-MURF multi-mode filter and running the Virus via midi through that filter array would be worth price of two ring modulator moogfoogers as the ring mod is very much a "one trick pony" and only versatile if one has like 6 moogfoogers connected to a 251 box and by this time with a sub phatty you would literally just about buy a Voyager. I figure if I ever get a Moog it's going to not be a half-arsed budget Moog, but one instrument that can do it all with knob per function madness. I dare say that I actually prefer the Little Phatty Stage 2 Keyboard over sub phatty.
But I quickly digressed; The Korg MS20 Mini at $599. is such a bargain with a huge sound pallet, and interconnectivity that it seems to be the most utilitarian and you could add a MiniBrute toMS20 with CV/Gate to have really unique duophonic sound for still same price as one Sub Phatty...and the volca keys or bass will also expand within MS20 taking very little room while adding en mass a sonic wall....something to think about.

[TweakHead]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I also think it doesn't make much sense to have "key shortcuts" on an analogue synthesizer - much less in a mono synthesizer. But judging the sound, it sounds like the real deal to me. Those oscillators are damn fat, and the Moog Filter is very juicy, as usual. The feedback thing sounds absolutely wonderful to me.

I also think the Korg is a winner here! But we're talking very different sound character here, not just abstract specs. And the Moog has a very distinct sound as well, that's earned them glory, even though they're sort of conservative when it comes to implementing more features on their range of synthesizers - not as much with the big guy moog voyager, that has ribbon control, x/y pad, semi-modular architecture, so forth and so on. If you add the moog foogers to that equation, I'd be in synthesizer heaven for sure. There's something about that sound.

The Korg is very very famous to, a classic. Have you ever listened to Hallucinogen? Check it out on Youtube, Simon Postford has used the MS 20 as his main synth for that project!