One synth to rule them all?

[TweakHead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8FbJDbG2DfA

[MBTC]

I saw some of the vague marketing stuff around this a few days ago, and just thought to myself "not enough info" (to make it worthwhile). I love NI stuff but I can't help but wonder if this isn't more of a marketing stunt than something that will really wow us. I guess we'll see soon. I'm planning to buy Komplete at some point so maybe this will give me the push I need :)

[TweakHead]

Yes, I think this will probably be something similar to Uhe's Diva or Waves Audio's Element. There's a new trend for very analogue sounding software synthesizers and this could be NI's take on it.

[Timo]

Saw the trailer the other day.

8FbJDbG2DfA

Komplete 9. (Komplete 8 is currently on sale).

As for new, Reaktor 6, maybe?

[TweakHead]

As for new, Reaktor 6, maybe?

that would kill :twisted:

and while we're at it, I wonder what they'll do with massive and fm8 - since they've grown to an almost mystic status, these days. some real hands on interface for synthesizers, like they've done with maschine would also kill. and bring them one step closer to build something like a daw... would be interesting to see them jump into the hardware synthesizer market to, but I hardly doubt it..

[TweakHead]

The new synthesizer by Native Instruments is called "Monark", and it'll be released along with Komplete 9 and at least a new version of Battery.

http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/bundles/komplete-9-ultimate/

the updates seem rather cheap for what's on the package. nothing new, I think NI offers plenty of bang for the buck compared to competition. looking forward to see what else comes up

http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/drums/battery-4/

EDIT

the page is available now:

http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/synths-samplers/monark/

another analogue modeling synthesizer, like we've seen in the competition, in the lines of Diva, Element by Waves, etc.

[MBTC]

Talk about marketing hype.. Jeez, a monophonic synth that runs in reaktor marketed as "one synth to rule them all"?

NI makes good stuff but they need to be careful about letting the marketing douchebags run amok and cry wolf like that -- it reflects badly on their products.

[Berni]

Talk about marketing hype.. Jeez, a monophonic synth that runs in reaktor marketed as "one synth to rule them all"?

NI makes good stuff but they need to be careful about letting the marketing douchebags run amok and cry wolf like that -- it reflects badly on their products.

Yeah a minimoog modeling synth isn't going to rule them all no matter how good it sounds. The new battery 4 looks tasty though & at only $149 for the Komplete upgrade I might just bite. Damn & I said I wouldn't be buying anymore gear this year but at that price it would be rude not too Lol. (http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/03/what-ni-was-teasing-monark-minimoog-modeling-synth-remade-battery-in-new-komplete/)

[MBTC]

I still plan to get Komplete at some point, and a new synth added to it never hurts, but the marketing hype that led up to this Monark synth seems disproportionate to me. Even if it does sound great, over hyping it is not going to sell it -- watching it climb to the top of KVR ranks on its own merit would. It sort of feels like someone in marketing felt pressure to pump Komplete advertising and used this new synth as the lever. I listened to the demo and didn't hear anything special, and even if it does sound great its still monophonic (which usually means too CPU hungry to run well polyphonically).

[Berni]

I still plan to get Komplete at some point, and a new synth added to it never hurts, but the marketing hype that led up to this Monark synth seems disproportionate to me. Even if it does sound great, over hyping it is not going to sell it -- watching it climb to the top of KVR ranks on its own merit would. It sort of feels like someone in marketing felt pressure to pump Komplete advertising and used this new synth as the lever. I listened to the demo and didn't hear anything special, and even if it does sound great its still monophonic (which usually means too CPU hungry to run well polyphonically).

Well if you plan on getting it I don't think it will get much cheaper. Even at $559 for the full version you are getting a LOT of bang for your buck. All that stuff for less than half the price of a virus snow!
At $149 for the upgrade you get a new synth, totally reworked battery (which I use a lot) the studio FX , session strings etc. Really not a bad deal at all me think's.

[feedingear]

i dont think anything gets me less excited then hearing about a new analog modelled mono synth.. give us something new and creative!

[TweakHead]

I think the problem was with the hype that was created with the teaser, more so then the product itself. This seems to be something in the lines of Diva, but much more cpu friendly. And it's certainly something that was lacking on Native Instruments collection of stuff. It says a lot that they can do it inside Reaktor to!

Nowadays there's a lot of developers doing analogue modeling synthesizers. The thing is, they finally start to deliver on that department. Such things as Diva, and this one. Judging the demos, unlike most people here say, I think it sounds much better then most software out there. But let's wait and see.

[Berni]

So I've had the chance to mess around with this synth this evening & I must say it's better than I thought it would be. I put it in live with a step sequencer at the front & one of the new compressors at the rear & went through the presets...it sounds really fat, way better than the demo's on NI's web site. Quite a few of them are obvious copies of recognisable patches from back in the day & was fun to tweak around with them. The GUI is cool looking & very user friendly & familiar. I didn't think I would be using this thing much but after hearing it I have changed my mind & for what it costs it's got to be one of the cheapest Moog emulations out there.
If you are looking for that fat Moogy sound you can't go wrong with this or on the other hand if you have $15000 to spare you could get a 10th anniversary Minimoog voyager :D

[TweakHead]

Yep, the filter is very lush sounding! And the way it drifts ranks way up there along with Diva. It's a very good analogue sounding machine, to my ears. It says a lot about Reaktor's technology and capabilities. I do think some of the most interesting machines out there run on Reaktor - and they're not used a lot, because some people still feel uneasy with it!

I do like the way the pitch gets modulated using another oscillator, mini moog style. It sounds different and is totally usable for me. Instant retro/cool vibe!

[MBTC]

Question for you guys that own Komplete 9...

Soon I plan to make this purchase; only thing stopping me right now is the sheer amount of existing software I still have to install, configure, install expansions for, etc. I still have Omnisphere to install (probably a half day job!) and many more following that. So the inevitable purchase will happen but it's in the work queue right now.

When I do, I'm going for the crossgrade for Maschine users (basically a hundred bucks off), but my question is.... does Komplete Ultimate have anything compelling over regular Komplete? Looking at the comparison chart, It looks mostly to have stuff like "Alicia's Keys" and more obscure synths stuff I'll never use, but the overall size of the sample library gets my attention.

Thanks for any advice here.

[Berni]

Question for you guys that own Komplete 9...

Soon I plan to make this purchase; only thing stopping me right now is the sheer amount of existing software I still have to install, configure, install expansions for, etc. I still have Omnisphere to install (probably a half day job!) and many more following that. So the inevitable purchase will happen but it's in the work queue right now.

When I do, I'm going for the crossgrade for Maschine users (basically a hundred bucks off), but my question is.... does Komplete Ultimate have anything compelling over regular Komplete? Looking at the comparison chart, It looks mostly to have stuff like "Alicia's Keys" and more obscure synths stuff I'll never use, but the overall size of the sample library gets my attention.

Thanks for any advice here.

If your'e looking for easy installation & a LOT more sounds then the ultimate is the way to go. Comes on a dedicated hard drive so the install is way faster than the DVD set that you get with the regular Komplete. Whether you need all the stuff on it depends what you need music wise I guess. There are a lot more Kontakt & Reaktor instruments with the Ultimate collection which you may or may not find useful. Some of the new synths in Reaktor are very cool & there is some really good orchestral & Soundtrack stuff in the Kontakt library. Check out NI's site & see if it's worth the extra $$$ to you.

[MBTC]

If your'e looking for easy installation & a LOT more sounds then the ultimate is the way to go. Comes on a dedicated hard drive so the install is way faster than the DVD set that you get with the regular Komplete. Whether you need all the stuff on it depends what you need music wise I guess. There are a lot more Kontakt & Reaktor instruments with the Ultimate collection which you may or may not find useful. Some of the new synths in Reaktor are very cool & there is some really good orchestral & Soundtrack stuff in the Kontakt library. Check out NI's site & see if it's worth the extra $$$ to you.

The ease of installation from the HD is very tempting, but I think I've decided not worth 2x the cost by itself, so it would come down to some of the other stuff. Getting the environment set up is something I do once about every 4 years , and honestly this time it is likely to be even longer, so I think the HD makes more sense for someone that's very mobile or moves between studios or setups a lot.

It's a tough call looking at the comparison chart. I doubt I would ever regret foregoing Razor or Skanner XT, but the sample library that's 3x the size of regular Komplete makes me wonder what I'd be missing there.

I have a feeling I will most likely end up with the regular Komplete rather than Ultimate.

Thanks for the advice.

[TweakHead]

Heviocity Damage! check that out! that's like the holly grail of sample collection! but yeah, it's still a lot of money. I tend to think it's much less then one would pay for a Yamaha Motif and it actually delivers much more eheh :twisted:

but Berni is right, you should check out the website and see if the extra stuff is actually going to get used. I seriously doubt there's anyone out there making full use of Komplete Ultimate. getting deep with reaktor is like having a day time job. and getting to Tim Exile's level is like being an astronaut lol

and then there's plenty of synthesizers with different approaches to synthesis that really ask for time to get the grips of - but are very rewarding. the samples, well, more doesn't kill. you never know when you're going to be craving for that special orchestral string, or violin, or some realistic convincing drums or something - and of course one can process those to pieces. orchestral sounds make good layers for synths sometimes eheh

if this thing was hardware, you'd have to sell your house to buy it. and it would take a house to fit it inside to.

[MBTC]

Damage looks interesting. Right when I was ready to save some money you go and tempt me like this ;) Guess I'll have to research each product that's in K9U individually, because I'm not familiar with all of them. I would like to have the strings and horns, and I know that it's all a really phenomenal value (would be $750 for Maschine owners)... just have to make up my mind if I'll get time to use it all and make it worth the extra price.

Also, while looking at the NI page, found an interesting link with A/B of Monark vs. a hardware Moog:

http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191811

[Berni]

Instant retro/cool vibe!

Word! :D Liking it!

[MBTC]

Ended up ordering K9 Ultimate. There were several items included in the K9U package that I decided I wanted after researching them a little, especially Evolve, Damage, lots of string/horn/drum sounds. I was a little concerned that I wouldn't be able to "crossgrade" from K9U to K10 regular when it comes out (i.e. I would forever be locked into a higher upgrade price) but that does not appear to be the case.

Looking forward to playing around with Monark and many of the others.

[Berni]

Damn bro, seems like your GAS is getting out of hand, Lol. Can't really say too much myself though having also recently acquired the NIKU9 bundle. Got to say I was going for the Komplete upgrade but thought what the hell & went the whole Ultimate deal as it was still a great price on my upgrade from K8. I'm just glad it comes on a hard drive as a DVD set would be a long ass time to load on. Even on the hard drive set aside an evening & a LOT of HD space to install. Having said that my install went very smoothly after I figured out where to put everything. I decided to clean install all libraries & trash the old K8 ones which freed up a lot of space (I of course saved all user banks etc.)
As you probably know there is soooo much stuff on there & the soundtrack stuff, damage etc. is crazy good especially because it uses Kontakt as it's main engine so you can pretty much do anything you want with it sample wise. Razor & Monark are very cool along with all the other stock synths it comes with & combined with the Maschine or a midi controller & your DAW of choice it really makes you wonder why anyone would spend a hell of a lot more cash on a solitary synth with a few knobs & keys & then have to buy a DAW as well for it to work properly.

Komplete Ultimate + Mashine = $1600

Virus TI Polar = $2990

;)

[MBTC]

Heh.... well GAS syndrome may not be over for me yet for the year 2013. This is the year of a complete revamp of my home studio, so the expenditures were inevitable. This is a neglected project that is now getting its due attention :) Realistically there will probably not be too much more hardware added to the mix. The UltraNova was more of an experiment to see how well "integrated hardware" would play with my current workflow... I think of it sort of like a lower cost mono-timbral Virus with some cool real-time playing options I wouldn't get any other way. There may however be a Virus joining the flock sometime soon, or maybe a Prophet 12, or maybe a Poly Evolver or something else to scratch the hardware itch.

That said, there is probably no single hardware device out there that is going to come close to matching the overall music making capability of the items that make up Komplete, and not at the price point or even ten times that.

My overall cost for K9U + Maschine is significantly lower than retail... paid $400 for Maschine then did the Crossgrade for Maschine owners to K9U for $750 for $1150 before shipping and such. I can't get a Snow for that! :)

I'm definitely glad all that comes on a hard drive though. I still haven't installed Omnisphere just because its so many DVDs and hours of swapping (need to get that started... maybe today actually).

I will say I'm finally getting close to getting the studio set up where I can just sit down and make music again. Yesterday I got some of my project templates created in Cubase (i.e. the templates that help you sit down and just fire up the DAW and go, rather than starting from scratch setting up /routing connections, adding same plug-in tracks and labeling them and crap like that).

Komplete should be here tomorrow, so hopefully all that will be installed by the weekend.

[Berni]

Yeah I got the deal on the maschine V1 for $400 & got KU9 for $649 because I already owned K8. Like you say, can't even buy a Snow for that! I'm very happy with Native Instruments right now :D

[MBTC]

Been meaning to ask, what do you think of the FX plugins (the reverbs, compression & such)?

(that question is for anyone that's tried them, regardless of owning the KU bundle)

[TweakHead]

Been meaning to ask, what do you think of the FX plugins (the reverbs, compression & such)?

(that question is for anyone that's tried them, regardless of owning the KU bundle)

Total killers! The new Bus compressor alone works wonders on groups of sounds! Of course you don't really need it for drums since it's integrated inside Battery 4 - if you like using it. The reverbs sound awsome as well, but they're inspired in classic units (so it's not bread and butter) - but they're very lush sounding reverbs. The new EQs inspired on analogue gear work just as great emulating the real thing as Monark - just give it a go.

Very happy with Native Instruments here to!

[MBTC]

mmm... more stuff to look forward to then :)

[Berni]

Been meaning to ask, what do you think of the FX plugins (the reverbs, compression & such)?

(that question is for anyone that's tried them, regardless of owning the KU bundle)

Not really had a chance to evaluate the NI ones much due to being in Plug-in overload at the mo (not a bad place to be) I just started to get into all the new EQ's, comps. etc. that come with Live 9 & the Max for Live stuff & now I have even more with the ultimate bundle...I'm pretty sure I don't need to get anymore. The solid stuff seems to be SSL emulations bit like the new 'glue' bus compressor in live so will have to see if they come close to the real thing. I have the SSL channel strip anyways so will be interesting to compare.
I put the solid bus compressor after an instance of Monarch last night in Maschine & it made it sound really fat & Moogish.

[TweakHead]

The solid stuff seems to be SSL emulations bit like the new 'glue' bus compressor in live so will have to see if they come close to the real thing. I have the SSL channel strip anyways so will be interesting to compare.

Do you have the real thing, in hardware? Or former Duende plug-ins from SSL themselves? Or Waves Audio?

I have the later but haven't compared them yet. Will be interesting to A/B them since they're based on the same circuit. But I have the feeling this new one is a winner!

Only used it as a Bus Compressor so far, with gentle settings to bring the elements closer together on Drums, and even gentler on Kick and Bass. This is entirely subjective of course, but I've used this plenty and I think this one does work better.

While I can't be to sure about the compressor, I'm pretty damn sure the EQ is amazing! I don't usually boost frequencies with digital EQs, only started doing it with good emulations of analog circuitry, and with gentle settings, something like +3dB at most. That's like saying, if I'm boosting I want it to sound musical and without sacrificing the harmonic balance of the sound in a way that just feels... well, like digital mud. There's a couple of them out there now that work very well for this: and this one imprints some really juicy character on the sound. Also tried it on Bass Instrument's group, a slight boost around 80-100Hz. Sounds very nice to me, doesn't produce any sort of artifact or annoying latencies (which demanding algorithms sometimes do). Solid as a rock and sounding more like it's out of some high end studio to my ears!

This is the kind of stuff you'd get with very expensive dedicated DSP cards only a few years ago, I think... Ok, rant over guys :twisted:

[MBTC]

Well the shiny K9U box showed up at my doorstep in all its glory earlier than promised, so it's installing now....
....so in the meantime I'm hovering over the keyboard, rubbing my hands together, sweating and drooling, anxious to get started creating Balinese Gamelan Trance! :)

Oh and I did actually finally get Omnisphere installed and updated today. Productive day! (Funny, it wasn't as painful as I remembered. When I first installed it many years back, it was on a PC that I used for getting work done so I had to wait for the install to finish. Not nearly as painful when done on a dedicated music PC in another room.)

[Berni]

Do you have the real thing, in hardware? Or former Duende plug-ins from SSL themselves? Or Waves Audio?

I have the later but haven't compared them yet. Will be interesting to A/B them since they're based on the same circuit. But I have the feeling this new one is a winner!

Only used it as a Bus Compressor so far, with gentle settings to bring the elements closer together on Drums, and even gentler on Kick and Bass. This is entirely subjective of course, but I've used this plenty and I think this one does work better.

While I can't be to sure about the compressor, I'm pretty damn sure the EQ is amazing! I don't usually boost frequencies with digital EQs, only started doing it with good emulations of analog circuitry, and with gentle settings, something like +3dB at most. That's like saying, if I'm boosting I want it to sound musical and without sacrificing the harmonic balance of the sound in a way that just feels... well, like digital mud. There's a couple of them out there now that work very well for this: and this one imprints some really juicy character on the sound. Also tried it on Bass Instrument's group, a slight boost around 80-100Hz. Sounds very nice to me, doesn't produce any sort of artifact or annoying latencies (which demanding algorithms sometimes do). Solid as a rock and sounding more like it's out of some high end studio to my ears!

This is the kind of stuff you'd get with very expensive dedicated DSP cards only a few years ago, I think... Ok, rant over guys :twisted:

No not the real thing (although I have been lucky enough to mess around with a big SSL board) but yes the Duende from SSL, I started with the box then went with the native when that became redundant. Listening to the new stuff it's really hard to call any significant differencies, at least to my pagan ears. It is all very subjective though & a lot depends on what you are putting through it. But yeah I agree, would have cost a bundle a few years ago, I know cos I spent it Lol!

[Berni]

anxious to get started creating Balinese Gamelan Trance! :)


Yes been playing around with that plugin myself...would be interesting to see what u can come up with, don't be shy ;)

[MBTC]

Yes been playing around with that plugin myself...would be interesting to see what u can come up with, don't be shy ;)

I was goofing with "Balinese Gamelan Trance" of course, but I really do love ethnic instruments and now that I've got a pretty amazing set of samples, I may be scratching a very old new-agey kind of itch I've had for a while.

Discovered a problem with my primary MIDI controller shortly after getting Komplete installed though, which I have a feeling is going to push my gear acquisition syndrome budget even further. I'm going to cover a request for suggestions in a different thread.

[Berni]

I was goofing with "Balinese Gamelan Trance" of course, but I really do love ethnic instruments and now that I've got a pretty amazing set of samples, I may be scratching a very old new-agey kind of itch I've had for a while.

Discovered a problem with my primary MIDI controller shortly after getting Komplete installed though, which I have a feeling is going to push my gear acquisition syndrome budget even further. I'm going to cover a request for suggestions in a different thread.

Oh I don't know, I think Balinese Gamelan Trance could be a whole new breath of life that Trance so desperately needs ;)

[MBTC]

Oh I don't know, I think Balinese Gamelan Trance could be a whole new breath of life that Trance so desperately needs ;)

The Balinese are already innovating here and two steps ahead of you and I. I'm told this whole "grab a shiv and poke yourself" trend is kind of like the new moshpit :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=j4jjWUKLBHI

[TweakHead]

I'm the breath of life Trance desperately needs LOL :twisted:

[Berni]

The Balinese are already innovating here and two steps ahead of you and I. I'm told this whole "grab a shiv and poke yourself" trend is kind of like the new moshpit :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=j4jjWUKLBHI

What a bunch of non musical dick heads...cmon man we are more evolved than that hopefully :p

[Berni]

I'm the breath of life Trance desperately needs LOL :twisted:

Well then lets hear it...been wondering for some time :p

[TweakHead]

Well then lets hear it...been wondering for some time :p

What? It was just the name of a patch dude! ;)

Be a little patient, my mac is on repair right now. The glass of the monitor got smashed, so it's getting a new one plus some inner cleaning (while I'm at it) and a new disk as well. After moving from Spain to this country with all my life in boxes, this had to happen to delay things even more. Will be back in action pretty soon, and I'll through some tunes for you guys to listen then. :cool:

[MBTC]

What? It was just the name of a patch dude! ;)

Be a little patient, my mac is on repair right now. The glass of the monitor got smashed, so it's getting a new one plus some inner cleaning (while I'm at it) and a new disk as well. After moving from Spain to this country with all my life in boxes, this had to happen to delay things even more. Will be back in action pretty soon, and I'll through some tunes for you guys to listen then. :cool:

Not down on Macs at all, I own one and earn some of my keep off iOS development, but all I can say is I'm so damn thankful I don't have to send my computers off when something goes wrong! I just crack open the box and replace a part if it's broken, or upgrade it on the cheap if I want something faster (I guess I would if something happens with my Mac Mini, but if it went tits-up during a development cycle I would have to replace it immediately and before receiving the repaired unit anyway). That's my fundamental problem with letting Apple be the keeper of my music platform.

As far as sharing music - I say share it if you want to but it's not necessarily the end game or goal for everyone. As a hobbyist, I enjoy the process of individual sound design and learning the quirks/limits/abilities of a given synth or tool as much as I enjoy creating music. I don't think I've completed a full track since maybe 2009 or so. If I haven't put something like 30 hours of work into a track, I don't consider it close to complete. And even then I have no real motivation to share; one reason I gave up on the idea of being a stage musician is because I just don't have that fundamental craving for attention it requires to do it well. I'd prefer to be the man behind the curtain so to speak. Ever wonder what my moniker stands for? :)

I have a friend who is a very successful and talented producer, and sometimes I let him listen to my stuff because his advice means something in particular to me; his tracks are some of the most well-mixed stuff I've ever heard come out of a home studio. I no longer have the hearing of a 10 year old boy and I'm quite aware of the value of outside input, but at a very basic level, I would only care about that outside input if I were truly seeking the approval of others. And with the exception of that one friend, I have no real interest in approval from others. Besides, there are plenty of forums dedicated for music sharing and critiquing out there. That's not to say I wouldn't listen if you posted it, it just means please don't be offended if I don't get around to listening :)

[TweakHead]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm being serious about music for the last couple of years. But it took me an entire year to get an EP to an almost complete state - that's what I was doing on the mac. That's the best music I have done so far, but, like you say, I'm not willing to show it until it's fully finished - which I imagine will happen sometime this year.

But I have other stuff I don't mind showing. Been doing this for a while and I think my productions are nothing to be ashamed of. Overall I feel that this started as an hobby for most of us, but later it gets more serious. And one step in that direction is actually showing the music and stand by what you do. So I can totally get Berni's point here. It's quite easy to lose focus, get dragged into endless experimentations and never get anything done. I know that because that's how it was for me, for a very long time. I was studying fine arts to, so I couldn't really focus much on it, anyways. But things started to change once I got into the mindset of composing real music, whole tracks, the whole story, and then figuring out how to build a set from those creations, the bigger picture. Doesn't matter if you're planning on making profit from music, playing gigs, just sending some tracks to compilations or selling them on the web; what's important is that you get into the right frame of mind, so as to make something of the time you've invested in this music thing. Could even be just to yourself, but it's always good. Changes everything ;)

[MBTC]

I do get what you're saying, and agree with a lot of it when putting myself in the shoes of others. It's just that in my particular case, getting something done or making something of the time invested with music is so contrary to my real goal. As you said, it's easy to lose focus and get dragged into endless experimentation.... BUT WHAT IF THAT'S MY GOAL? ;) I want to get lost, I want to escape from my regular work tasks.

I started music at an early age (drumming since age 5... real drums, not toys, actually), and because I felt "always on display" whenever friends of the family came over (my family were all professional musicians, so every time we had company over to the house, there was this obligation that we start gigging for the enjoyment of our friends, etc) I felt like a circus monkey, and decided I did not want to perform for others' enjoyment, because it would strip me of a passion that I loved -- making music.

Also started software development at an early age. In college I wanted to change to a non-computer science related discipline, because I did not want "corporate greed" to strip me of a passion that I loved -- developing software. Well eventually I realized it was my best money-making talent, and decided to cave in and capitalize on it anyway, and have been there ever since. And yes, real-world corporate greed and all of that has put a major dent in my enjoyment of programming, to the point where I rarely if ever choose to do it in my free time.

So.... what's my creative outlet? Music. The one thing I can do, my way, on my own terms, without feeling obligated to let others in unless I really want to (and like I said, occasionally I do, I just don't let others talk me into doing so).

One of the things I like most about my hobby is that the moment it starts to feel like work, I can just walk away. If I want cognitive stimulation, I get that already, every day, from writing code (probably too much of it). When I make music, it is a relaxation exercise only, and if I start heeding the advice of others, I am now back in the position of doing some work to appeal to their ears instead of appealing to my own sense of relaxation.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone should take the perspective that I do. Anyone who wants to better themselves as a producer of music really needs to get their stuff onto other ears and understand how it impacts other listeners. Measures of success vary from individual to individual. My measure of success is to see how much I can do things my way when it comes to music :P and if others end up liking what I do, then it's icing on the cake but not something I will pursue. My measure of success is not one that I would necessarily recommend to others. Success according to most musicians should probably include some element of approval from others.

But do know, that I understand the level of satisfaction that most want to achieve. About 7 years ago or so, I starting paying incrementally more attention to the feedback I was getting from people about my music, which at the time I had gotten into a habit of sharing. The stuff I was uploading started out pretty rough but got progressively better, until I finally nailed one track where the comments were overwhelmingly positive. I got comments like "great stuff! would have bought it if on iTunes" and "this one is going on my iPod for sure!".... stuff like that. That was a great feeling, and gave me a taste of the euphoria that the really great producers must feel on a regular basis. I saw it as kind of the pinnacle of my music sharing, it wasn't going to get any better than that, so I just stopped doing it :)

[MBTC]

Switching gears back to Komplete for a moment, I'm really liking the sound of much of this stuff but I've been a little taken aback by how much of a CPU-eater much of it is, especially synths many of the pack-in synths are running in Reaktor.

If you just load an empty project, and add one instance of Reaktor with Prism for example, what does your CPU meter read (not playing notes, just idle)?

[Berni]

What? It was just the name of a patch dude! ;)

Be a little patient, my mac is on repair right now. The glass of the monitor got smashed, so it's getting a new one plus some inner cleaning (while I'm at it) and a new disk as well. After moving from Spain to this country with all my life in boxes, this had to happen to delay things even more. Will be back in action pretty soon, and I'll through some tunes for you guys to listen then. :cool:

Forgive my confusion, I thought you had made some mind blowing trance ;)

[TweakHead]

No worries mate. What kind of trance are we talking about here? I make psychedelic, mostly. Think it's still possible to come up with original ideas for it.

[Berni]

No worries mate. What kind of trance are we talking about here? I make psychedelic, mostly. Think it's still possible to come up with original ideas for it.

Well anything that isn't the generic crap I am hearing right now. I just listened to the 'trance' top 10 on Beatport which included artists...above & beyond, ferry corsten & armin van burren & it was abysmal.
I REAALLY wish someone would come up with some original trance. I was playing it back in the day before it was even called trance...it's now music for kids doing there first E.

[MBTC]

Well anything that isn't the generic crap I am hearing right now. I just listened to the 'trance' top 10 on Beatport which included artists...above & beyond, ferry corsten & armin van burren & it was abysmal.
I REAALLY wish someone would come up with some original trance. I was playing it back in the day before it was even called trance...it's now music for kids doing there first E.

IMO there are two main elements that distinguish good trance from bad: good melodies and good mix quality. Sadly those are the two things that only a few seem to really know how to do well. The drums are relatively simple so it's too easy to throw in a drum loop and some bassline that's been heard a gazillion times elsewhere, and out pops a generic turd with nothing special about it.

If you don't like AvB though, in general I doubt you'd like anything I've ever created. He, Markus Shultz, Paul Van Dyk,etc. are some of the best around in their genre. Thing is that appreciation of a genre varies, so if you don't like it then you don't. I'm the same way about 99% of R&B, and although I like some dubstep, watching every 12 year old out there who saw a youtube vid on how to create a wobble doesn't take long to get old.

The trance I like to listen to takes melody and crafts it into emotion, and combines that with a really clean mix. It's getting harder to come by these days as the EDM crowd is a fickle floozy that likes to chase after the newest thing, so less people are creating good stuff.

[TweakHead]

Well anything that isn't the generic crap I am hearing right now. I just listened to the 'trance' top 10 on Beatport which included artists...above & beyond, ferry corsten & armin van burren & it was abysmal.
I REAALLY wish someone would come up with some original trance. I was playing it back in the day before it was even called trance...it's now music for kids doing there first E.

Know exactly what you mean with "generic crap". But if you're after good produced trance, you need to avoid beatport - as it's just a showcase for the commercial trends. I personally like some of the new high tech (real fast) psytrance. It's maybe a bit to fast for most people,and maybe not your cup of tea, but those guys are exploring new territory in sound design for sure: such things as bombax, virtuanoise, oxidasi, kindzadza, so forth and so on. I still think Eat Static and Simon Postford and some of the old masters still deliver mind blowing music - Shpongle is like candy to the ears imo.

Did you have another name back in the day? For how long have you been producing music? Please enlighten me. I was lucky enough to catch the psytrance scene when it was still very cool in my country, which is portugal btw.

[TweakHead]

IMO there are two main elements that distinguish good trance from bad: good melodies and good mix quality. Sadly those are the two things that only a few seem to really know how to do well. The drums are relatively simple so it's too easy to throw in a drum loop and some bassline that's been heard a gazillion times elsewhere, and out pops a generic turd with nothing special about it.

If you don't like AvB though, in general I doubt you'd like anything I've ever created. He, Markus Shultz, Paul Van Dyk,etc. are some of the best around in their genre. Thing is that appreciation of a genre varies, so if you don't like it then you don't. I'm the same way about 99% of R&B, and although I like some dubstep, watching every 12 year old out there who saw a youtube vid on how to create a wobble doesn't take long to get old.

The trance I like to listen to takes melody and crafts it into emotion, and combines that with a really clean mix. It's getting harder to come by these days as the EDM crowd is a fickle floozy that likes to chase after the newest thing, so less people are creating good stuff.

Yeah, not so much into the melodic stuff myself. Even though I don't like it when it just feels like random fx flying around - it needs to be musical, but I've grown to like the real alien like sort of music. It's a matter of taste. Also think the mix is key, but don't necessarily agree that having emotional melodies is an essential part of trance music.

[MBTC]

Yeah, not so much into the melodic stuff myself. Even though I don't like it when it just feels like random fx flying around - it needs to be musical, but I've grown to like the real alien like sort of music. It's a matter of taste. Also think the mix is key, but don't necessarily agree that having emotional melodies is an essential part of trance music.

I probably should have mentioned the fact that there are a lot of different variatons of trance which still qualify as "trance", I just think of trance and psytrance as two different genres despite the term trance being present in both.

Not that Wikipedia is the end-all defining source of music definitions, but I think the definitions put forth there do a reasonable job of representing how I think of the two genres, and how others I know and have collaborated with think of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance_music
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_trance

I do like psytrance too, but I feel their musical goals are different:

I think of good psytrance as sort of an assault (in a good way) on my ears of some creative use of FX-heavy sounds, that mostly strives to identify itself by originality of the sounds themselves and arrangement of them.

Trance I think is more like traditional music in the sense that it tends to stick to a base of standard "instruments" (sound categories), like an analogish bass sound, plucks / stabs, lush supersaw pads, usually that evolve slowly, dreamtrance synth patches, 4 on 4 drums with an aggressive kick, arp synth sounds that aren't "too" far out there and alien, etc. The creativity comes into play not so much with the sounds themselves but the melodic arrangement, the way tension is built up and released, etc.

Maybe a bigger defining factor is that with trance, there tends to be sort of a recurring anthem that identifies the tune. That anthem and other melodic parts could be then taken out, and a gazillion remixes created of the track using different genres. For example, you could take a basic trance song and come up with a psytrance or hardstyle remix of it, while retaining the basic roots. On the other hand you rarely see the converse being done -- a psytrance track is rarely remixed into an anthem trance track, because there's less raw material to work with and it wouldn't make much sense to do it? It could be done but it wouldn't be preserving the original most likely, if that makes sense.

Again not trying to say my definitions are the way things are, that's just how I view the difference.

[TweakHead]

Yes, I tend to agree with all that you've said here. But among all the sub genres of trance, there's more things in common then differences. The structure and basic grooves are more a less the same. And the effect it has on listeners is similar as well. There's also very emotional and melodic psychedelic trance out there. Actually, there's tons of sub genres which is kind of natural since this all started in the early 90s and it's still developing these days. There's room for a lot of different variations, but "building up for a release" is something that's shared across most electronic music in general - and even some pop tunes, that's recurring more and more to EDM vocabulary.

But yes, you'll rarely find a supersaw lead on psychedelic trance, whereas on other genres of trance there's a lot of that going on, and more warm pads and stuff like that. The squelchy, acid sounds is more a characteristic of psychedelic music - and playing with generously applied effects is also a big factor. That is one of the reasons a synthesizer like the Virus which integrates the fx section so well - having its parameters available as destinations - is very popular for these genres.

Probably for anthem trance, people lust after the Roland sound, like the Juno JP8080, right? Not that I wouldn't love to have one. BTW, see them going for fairly reasonable prices in my country in mint condition. Has anyone here tried one? I think that's a very nice machine with the unmistakable Roland sound - and the original supersaw waves of course.

Also, don't know how the hypersaw on the Virus can live up to replace that, since I have the C. There's tons of plug-ins that can do it fairly well nowadays. Lush 101 is one of the best, Zeta +1 is another, but there's plenty more, like Zebra can make that kind of Lead very well, no?

[MBTC]

The JP-8000/JP-8080 (actually was technically not a Juno or Jupiter) has a lot of historical importance to trance, and considered a predecessor to the VA synths that came after it like Virus, SuperNova, etc. Maybe in some ways it was the synth that made trance possible? But yes they can be picked up pretty inexpensively -- I think Roland made a lot of them. I know Prodigy used to use these (they aren't technically a psytrance band but they always used a lot of resonant/distorted filter-esque sounds, so maybe it speaks to the versatility of the JP-8xxx somewhat).

I've toyed with the idea of picking one up, mostly for nostalgia sake, but most of the people I know that own the hardware boards have made the move to soft synths due to getting same (or better) results in an easier to work with form. You can certainly find them at a good deal though!

Do you feel the hypersaw on the Virus C is not capable of living up to the supersaw available in soft synths or the Ti2? I'm interested in this because maybe you saw another post where I was hoping to find a polyphony/voice count comparison of a Snow versus a C with the same patch.

But yes, Zebra is quite capable of this kind of sound. Another one that might surprise you, that I think you already own is FM8. Nobody thinks of FM synthesis when they think of the supersaw sound, but it is definitely capable, it just achieves the sound a slightly different way. If you dig through some of the trancelead patches on FM8 I think you'll see what I mean. Warmth isn't really the best characteristic of FM synthesis, but you can always layer it with the timbres of another synth if needed.

I think the supersaw is an interesting sound, mostly because it is such a processing-heavy type of sound, one that older analog gear wasn't really capable of, so in a way it is kind of iconic of the mid-late 90s, a time period which I see as kind of a "comeback period" for synths. For a time during the 90s, it seemed like everyone in popular music was going unplugged/acoustic and synthesizers were getting neglected. A handful of bands like Depeche Mode and Nine Inch Nails were keeping them relevant throughout that period, at least here in the USA, with the exception of course of dance club music. Then VA gear came onto the scene and brought a new sound to the table, and the supersaw was one of the iconic elements of that sound.

Really though, I think the basic supersaw sound is kind of boring by itself... just lots of detuned oscillators. It's things like the envelopes/LFOs and how it's used in the music that matters.

From a pure synth perspective, it's kind of an important type of sound I think, because a synth that has the power to do a nice supersaw typically has the power to do almost any other kind of sound. Yet there are synths that do every other kind of sound, but just don't have the raw power to do a proper supersaw.

[TweakHead]

Well, the Virus C can only approach this. As the oscillators themselves aren't capable of producing a raw supersaw wave. But you can get near that sound for sure. The hypersaw oscillator is only available on ti, ti2 and snow - and I was asking this because I think it was access's way of bringing this sound into the virus. I think with a couple of sawtooth waves detuned apart and making good use of the unison one gets close enough, maybe a touch of EQ as well, to bring the highs up a bit - maybe then a touch of chorus and reverb. But think the ti range of virus is much more capable of doing this, since it can pack a couple of waves together at oscillator level like the real deal - just don't know how close it is to the Rolands.

FM can surely sound similar to this sound. One oscillator modulated by a fast one will get some very juicy harmonics and the fast movement - which is similar to the supersaw. One must find the sweet spots though - one of the things I really like about Virus's FM btw. And you're right, also use FM8 a lot - actually couldn't live without it tbh. I'm a big fan of FM. Lately I've been crazy about analogue kind of FM to, sounds different but it's so cool there's days I'd kill for it. One of the interesting ways to go there would be the euro rack - so much stuff one can do with that.

Also heard that a decent analogue with FM capabilities going through the mooger fooger ring modulator produces the kind of eargasm that you easily forget the money you spent for it eheh.

Oh, and our beloved Monark can to a very good emulation of analogue FM. Also, have you guys heard about Aalto synth?

http://www.madronalabs.com/products/aalto

some sounds you get out of this, you can't find in anything software so far. it's kind like the buchla sound, very very cool

juEhTWeq3bI

[Berni]

IMO there are two main elements that distinguish good trance from bad: good melodies and good mix quality. Sadly those are the two things that only a few seem to really know how to do well. The drums are relatively simple so it's too easy to throw in a drum loop and some bassline that's been heard a gazillion times elsewhere, and out pops a generic turd with nothing special about it.

If you don't like AvB though, in general I doubt you'd like anything I've ever created. He, Markus Shultz, Paul Van Dyk,etc. are some of the best around in their genre. Thing is that appreciation of a genre varies, so if you don't like it then you don't. I'm the same way about 99% of R&B, and although I like some dubstep, watching every 12 year old out there who saw a youtube vid on how to create a wobble doesn't take long to get old.

The trance I like to listen to takes melody and crafts it into emotion, and combines that with a really clean mix. It's getting harder to come by these days as the EDM crowd is a fickle floozy that likes to chase after the newest thing, so less people are creating good stuff.

I was a fan of PVD, Ferry Corsten etc. back in the day but not so much now, there sound doesn't seem to have progressed much. Unlike guys like Sasha who where big trance DJ's back then but now seem to be more into the progressive side of House (still hammering his remix of Hot Chip's 'Flutes' every saturday night) The same thing is happening with dubstep like you say, when it first emerged it was a cool & interesting new sound but now everyone & his dog are making it with the same cookie cutter attitude it has got boring as hell really fast. You can hear my first & only attempt at it on my Soundcloud, the track is called 'I think were dead'

[MBTC]

I was a fan of PVD, Ferry Corsten etc. back in the day but not so much now, there sound doesn't seem to have progressed much. Unlike guys like Sasha who where big trance DJ's back then but now seem to be more into the progressive side of House (still hammering his remix of Hot Chip's 'Flutes' every saturday night) The same thing is happening with dubstep like you say, when it first emerged it was a cool & interesting new sound but now everyone & his dog are making it with the same cookie cutter attitude it has got boring as hell really fast. You can hear my first & only attempt at it on my Soundcloud, the track is called 'I think were dead'

I dunno, I think all genres have their good and bad. PvD and AvB have done things that are pretty well outside the trance genre too. This one by PvD came to mind, more of a pop/rock type of tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO0PMclabt4

[Timo]

If you have an iPad and are after a really great JP supersaw sound, check out BeepStreet Sunrizer. Gives you a JP80x0 effectively for £7.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/sunrizer-synth/id443663267?mt=8

Fantastic supersaws on that lil' app, and a whole more besides. Loads of usable sounds, has a nicely refined polished sound to it. The morph wheel is really great too.

[Berni]

I dunno, I think all genres have their good and bad. PvD and AvB have done things that are pretty well outside the trance genre too. This one by PvD came to mind, more of a pop/rock type of tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO0PMclabt4

Still sounds like a commercial trancey sound to me & when I first heard this kind of thing on the radio it was the end of my love affair with trance. Once it got out of the underground scene & into the mainstream I lost all interest.

[MBTC]

Still sounds like a commercial trancey sound to me & when I first heard this kind of thing on the radio it was the end of my love affair with trance. Once it got out of the underground scene & into the mainstream I lost all interest.

It is definitely more mainstream pop, but I think that song drifts far from trance by definition. Anyway, your situation may be different because correct me if I'm wrong but you listen to EDM every night and probably preparing mixes for work and stuff during the day? I would think that's going to completely change your burnout rate for different EDM genres. I have such varied taste in music that I only occasionally listen to trance. Plus, other factors need to be in place for it to work. I don't really like listening to EDM early in the morning getting work done or whatever. It's more for night time listening with some brewskis :)

[TweakHead]

But there's always underground and mainstream. It's just that some producers get tired of being "in the shadows", putting to much work into their music for a small niche of people who appreciate it and probably download the music from the web for free. The way I see it, it's just some musicians that get seduced by the lights of fame, success, the chance to make real money from their work. There's some very bad examples of that. I think there's a band with a name similar to this forum that rings a bell.

But while there's a whole pack of artists in psytrance that started good and then turned to more cheesy commercial music, there's still a very diversified underground scene and music going. What we sometimes feel is that it has changed and we can never get that element of surprise back. But that's mostly us that have changed. It used to be new for us, now it isn't. But there's always new people coming in and their amazement is very similar to what we've felt back then. It's only different.

And while we can go on talking about the specifics of a given genre, I feel trance is like a state of mind that can be achieved through music and sharing the experience with other people. That's just as good a possibility as it was when it all started, the rest of it is just trends, labels, organizers and their greed levels - sometimes it goes of the charts, sometimes you find good stuff. Take a look at this events, for example: boom festival and ozora festival. The atmosphere in there is just amazing. Just an example.

[TweakHead]

If you have an iPad and are after a really great JP supersaw sound, check out BeepStreet Sunrizer. Gives you a JP80x0 effectively for £7.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/sunrizer-synth/id443663267?mt=8

Fantastic supersaws on that lil' app, and a whole more besides. Loads of usable sounds, has a nicely refined polished sound to it. The morph wheel is really great too.

don't have the ipad, but saw a video on youtube and it surely does sound good!! :cool:

[MBTC]

If you have an iPad and are after a really great JP supersaw sound, check out BeepStreet Sunrizer. Gives you a JP80x0 effectively for £7.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/sunrizer-synth/id443663267?mt=8

Fantastic supersaws on that lil' app, and a whole more besides. Loads of usable sounds, has a nicely refined polished sound to it. The morph wheel is really great too.

Thanks, I might check that one out after I get tired of Korg iPolySix. I bought it when it was still $15 but have not given it adequate playtime.

It's quite good, but I think my fingers are old school and crave a real keyboard, because the only time I find myself firing it up are if I'm traveling or something and find myself in the hotel room, board. Most likely waiting for the girlfriend to finish her hair and makeup and emerge ready from the bathroom! lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE7oF9joTBU

[MBTC]

But there's always underground and mainstream. It's just that some producers get tired of being "in the shadows", putting to much work into their music for a small niche of people who appreciate it and probably download the music from the web for free. The way I see it, it's just some musicians that get seduced by the lights of fame, success, the chance to make real money from their work.


I also think there is a tendancy to like or appreciate something just because it is "underground" or off the beaten path. We see it as rare (and I guess it is)... it's sort of like when an artist (musical or otherwise) dies and the value of their work skyrockets simply because they're dead, even if nobody cared for their work when they were alive.

I've found myself somewhat of a "victim" of this syndrome too during certain periods of my life. I remember being a fan of The Cure way before most people knew who they were. When they gained mainstream popularity, yes their sound got a little more approachable but it was still good and still worthy of The Cure label. Many folks complained about how they sold out, but the truth is success came to them because they earned it, they never really changed. It was just the perception by those who liked the "elite" feeling of being part of some underground fan base -- they didn't like feeling encroached on by the public. Their private garden had been invaded, their feeling of superiority over society compromised! ;)

What I mean is that we don't have to stop enjoying a band or genre just because other people are onto it. But we have a tendancy to do just that.

It used to be that there were very real consequences of a band going mainstream and getting a hit in the Top 40. In North America, in the 80s and 90s, that meant you were going to hear the same some played over and over on the radio, to the point where you would be sick of anything that came from that band going forward.

But these days, most folks I think listen to Pandora, iPods, SiriusXM and the like, which has made that much less of an issue.

But on the flipside of that, sometimes bands or artists do change. Sometimes they do their best or at least most creative work in their younger years, when they are fueled by alcohol and drug abuse :).... then when they get older and have families to support or are suffering health problems from all the booze, their creative edge dissipates and they mostly just live off the name they established early on. Then again there are some old dudes that really come up with some nice surprises. Did you ever hear Johnny Cash cover the song "Hurt" by Nine Inch Nails?

[Berni]

I actually don't think there is much of an underground anymore with the advent of digital media & the internet. You can go from obscurity to viral in a very short space of time, which means new trends tend to come & go like fashion which is a bit sad, the ideas & artists never get chance to mature & get snapped up by labels wanting to cash in on the next musical fad of the month before they have time to & are replaced by (insert next dumb music genre here).
@the man behind the curtain - I hate the bastard that gave The Cure anti depressants!

[MBTC]

I actually don't think there is much of an underground anymore with the advent of digital media & the internet. You can go from obscurity to viral in a very short space of time, which means new trends tend to come & go like fashion which is a bit sad, the ideas & artists never get chance to mature & get snapped up by labels wanting to cash in on the next musical fad of the month before they have time to & are replaced by (insert next dumb music genre here).
@the man behind the curtain - I hate the bastard that gave The Cure anti depressants!

But at the same time, digital media, the Internet, music sharing, the ease of home studios et al has made it harder for bands to turn a profit than in the old days, so they will have to keep doing something right if they want to survive.

LOL about The Cure!

[TweakHead]

Maybe not in the US, but rest assured that if you take your time to come visit europe I can show you some real tasty underground all right ;)

[feedingear]

I reckon theres a really healthy scene of people writing whatever they like, and sharing it via soundcloud now. Just gotta follow the right people, comment, share, and give back to the community. The real art is finding it - hence I am in a few facebook groups that share discoveries and favourite acts across most genres. I love too much of a variety of music to get too precious about anything nowadays.

I've been fortunate to study the history of true pioneering electronica and synthesis, jazz, classical, avant garde, pop, and contemporary in the different courses I've done, which has helped inform me a little more on what is actually breaking entire new ground compositionally, amd then getting my subjective opinion on and asking my favourite introspective music question - "how does it make me feel?"

[feedingear]

It's an interesting time to be in a band now. Labels are either accepting that studio cost is now not a practical recovery through record sales and are building the recovery in to touring and merchandising instead.

The money is back in touring, and in merchandising. Vinyl is back in amongst the alternative scenes because of its collectability and as a rejection of the internet era of disposable, intangible media. I think the ones who are really winning now are the punters - the quality and calibre of gigs is on the up and touring (at least in Australia) is getting a lot better.

[TweakHead]

Yep, I agree with you feedingear! There's a lot of great music out there! It's easier to make and share music today and that has threatened the industry as artists don't enjoy the wide audiences they used to have. Some people see that as a bad thing, but there's also the other side of it: this availability of tools and even information brought with it a lot of creativity and the trick - I also agree with that - is to find where the gold is!

I think that the development of technology should bring about such a revolution. It should give people the tools to fulfill their creative potential. The market doesn't like it much, because they'd rather stand in the way (the receiving end) of the tools and those who seek it. And big studios don't like it either, that you can make stuff on your own instead of paying for their services. But the times, they are a changin'...