Winter NAMM 2014 gear (all manufacturers)

[Timo]

Various products, rumours, et al., so liable to change. Will update respectively.

The NAMM Trade show 2014 runs 23-26th Jan.

Roland:
• [Aira TR-08/9 (http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2014/01/15/roland-aira-tr-08-the-evolution-of-the-classic-tr-808/)] - an alleged successor to the 808/909 by the very people who made them.

http://i0.wp.com/www.synthtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/roland-aria-tr-08.png

iE9qem7gDKk pXsMvTSCkuY

• [FA-06/8 (http://www.rolandconnect.com/product.php?p=fa-08)] - 61/88 key workstation
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-fa06.jpg (http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/images/products/gallery/fa-06_top_gal.jpg)

• [VT-3 vocal transformer (http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/roland-vt-3-vocal-transformer-details-leak-591627)]
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-vt3.jpg


Elektron:
• [Analog Rytm (http://www.elektron.se/products/analog-rytm)] - a 8-voice analog drum machine w/ sample support
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-rytm.jpg http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-rytm2.jpg 51-2dmJko0k


Nord:
• [Nord Lead A1 (http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Products&clpm=Nord_Lead_A1&utm_source=home&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=nl1a-namm)]
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-norda1.jpg kT2aGE1uxsg


Moog:
• [Sub Phatty 37 (http://www.moogmusic.com/node/92877)]
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-sub37.jpg 0N4xntZbdW0

• [Theremini (http://www.moogmusic.com/node/92916)]
http://infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-theremini.jpg


Korg:
• [MS20 DIY kit (http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2014/01/23/korg-ms-20-kit-lets-you-build-a-full-size-analog-monophonic-synth-classic/)]
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-ms20kit.jpg Cue1LX0jxVg

• [Gadget synth studio (http://www.musicradar.com/us/news/tech/namm-2014-korg-unveils-gadget-synth-studio-for-ipad-591507)] - 15 virtual synths/drums for iPad.
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-gadget2.jpg 41QVTMjruok

• [Taktile / Triton Taktile (http://www.musicradar.com/us/news/tech/namm-2014-korg-unveils-taktile-range-of-controller-keyboards-and-synths-591535)] - USB controller with/without Triton sound engine
4xUAgTka-GY http://cdn.mos.musicradar.com/images/Product%20News/Tech/Jan14/korg-namm/tr-taktile-49-slant-630-80.jpg

• [RK-100s keytar (http://www.musicradar.com/us/news/tech/namm-2014-korg-announces-rk-100s-keytar-591651)]
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-rk100s.jpg

• Pa4X? maybe.

Waldorf:
• Possibly a couple of products, including some kind of filter judging by the teaser:
http://www.waldorf-music.info/images/stories/news/Cut-off.jpg


Slate Digital:
• [Virtual Microphone system (http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/roland-vt-3-vocal-transformer-details-leak-591627)]
_rzzoFCm8qk


Akai:
• [EWI 5000 - Wireless Wind Controller (http://www.akaipro.com/product/ewiusb)] inc. 3Gb of sounds
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-ewi5000.png


Alesis:
• Loads of [USB/keyboard controllers, monitors, audio interfaces and other studio gubbins (http://www.alesis.com/tradeshows/wnamm2014/alesis.html)]

• [Vortex wireless Keytar (http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2014/01/22/alesis-intros-199-vortex-wireless-keytar)]
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-vortex.jpg


M-Audio:
• [Trigger Finger Pro (http://www.musicradar.com/us/news/tech/namm-2014-m-audio-trigger-finger-pro-announced-591988)]
http://i2.wp.com/www.synthtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/m-audio-trigger-finger-e1390447332508-640x438.jpg UdwiAI4c7CI


Arturia:
• sequencer/controller
http://cdn.mos.musicradar.com/images//Product%20News/Tech/Jan14/BeatStep_namm14-630-80.jpg TP2OYzvFdMs


[b]Bitwig:
•


[b]Kawai:
• MP11
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/namm-2014/380653d1390053463-mamm-2014-kawai-mp11-coming-soon-leak-3398749_11389858807.jpg

Edits/updates as and when...

Of course the only real thing I'm bothered about is whether there's any news from Access, but there are no teasers and I've heard zilch.

[feedingear]

The new Izotope plugin looks pretty god damn cool too Timo - http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/breaktweaker/features.asp

[namnibor]

Was checking here for any news of Access and Namm '14, although I did read on KVR or similar that, "...a new iOS App for Kemper Amp Modeling..." [paraphrased], so did not know if it meant there's a Kemper booth at NAMM or if that App was a third party developer?!

I DO KNOW that there's been a preponderance of Virus Ti's for sale on Ebay USA for last week or so and thought maybe some people knew something on the inside or something.

I think we would have heard an announcement from Access by now. :confused:

[Timo]

Kemper are definitely there at NAMM in their usual place, booth. #6100

But given that there were no teasers on the Access site, and that energy was seemingly being placed into the Kemper Amp software again this year (see below) and that that signified no major new update for TI OS last year (TI OS v5 was originally showcased at NAMM 2012 and released as beta not long after), I held off a Virus news bulletin that I normally do. Normally Access drop at least a couple of hints beforehand if there's an update on the horizon, but it's been extraordinarily quiet.

Kemper Amps:
http://www.kemper-amps.com/rigmanager
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/namm-2014/900654-namm-2014-kemper-amps-introduces-rigmanager-kemper-profiler.html

BreakTweaker looks super, F|Ear!

[MBTC]

If I were committed to the Mac as a platform, the new Apollo desktop interfaces would be of great interest to me. Sadly they pass over the PC so they aren't on the menu for me this year or perhaps at all... but who knows, maybe one day.

Would love to have all that DSP power for plugins.

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2014/01/23/-namm-2014-uad-introduces-the-apollo-twin/

[TweakHead]

You can still get the pci-e from UAD which is probably the best solution imo. Plus, on the price range of this things, there's not nearly enough I/O connections there.

So, HDSP from RME + UAD duo or Quad is the way XD

[TweakHead]

Yeah, Waldorf seems to be in good shape. Back to the roots even. They do have, already, an impressive line of products and god knows what will happen when they decide to go for a big one, similar do Q or Wave.

Roland could kill with simple reincarnations of their old stuff. But I somehow doubt they'll do that, and perhaps we'll see something as related to the originals as the MC303 was to the TB303, back in the day? Said it last year, if they do wake up and present their classics again, there's a ton of money waiting for them... SH101 would be on my list, priced similar to the Korg MS 20 - what's with the DIY thing? If I'm paying, I want it assembled XD Ok, but you get the regular size one...

New Moog looks and sounds amazing. Nord Lead A1 also looks nice but it's kind of expensive for what it does, would rather go with a Nord 4 or they could kill with a Modular G3 any given time - now that modular is regaining popularity and all of that.

The Electron drum machine sounds really dope! Could be the next classic on drum machines, sure looks very promising. Cheers

[MBTC]

You can still get the pci-e from UAD which is probably the best solution imo. Plus, on the price range of this things, there's not nearly enough I/O connections there.


You're right, but the interface is one piece of gear I like having externally, having a physical knob for each pre-amp, and being able to easily move from PC to Mac if I want, etc. I don't know if putting one of the pci-e cards in just for the DSP benefit would play well with a different interface... they say if you start working with the UAD stuff you kind of have to go all in and do everything the UAD way.

[namnibor]

Yeah, Waldorf seems to be in good shape. Back to the roots even. They do have, already, an impressive line of products and god knows what will happen when they decide to go for a big one, similar do Q or Wave.

Roland could kill with simple reincarnations of their old stuff. But I somehow doubt they'll do that, and perhaps we'll see something as related to the originals as the MC303 was to the TB303, back in the day? Said it last year, if they do wake up and present their classics again, there's a ton of money waiting for them... SH101 would be on my list, priced similar to the Korg MS 20 - what's with the DIY thing? If I'm paying, I want it assembled XD Ok, but you get the regular size one...

New Moog looks and sounds amazing. Nord Lead A1 also looks nice but it's kind of expensive for what it does, would rather go with a Nord 4 or they could kill with a Modular G3 any given time - now that modular is regaining popularity and all of that.

The Electron drum machine sounds really dope! Could be the next classic on drum machines, sure looks very promising. Cheers

As far as Elektron go, and from first-hand experience with Analog Four and even a MonoMachine--Elektron definitely has quite the knack for strategically "crippling certain functions" as to do two or more things in their oddly aggressive marketing to their 'fanboys'--
1)They will leave off utilitarian functions such as midi out on the Analog Four, because they want you to buy their Octatrack in addition in order to 'get' that function, while they even advertise 'full midi specifications' on said 'crippled machine',
and
2)Way beyond any language barrier--their 'Reference Manuals' are every bit only a 'reference', not comprehensive operating instructions, and,
3)We synth-heads whom have other keyboards and/or modules in set-up that would like to only *augment* and *integrate* an Elektron machine into our set-ups are repeatedly left with a crap taste in mouths because Electron machines *demand* to be the center of ones set-up--not other way around, and lastly,
4)dislike saying this but check for yourselves, whether it be Sound Cloud or You Tube--I swear *almost all* music sequences done on Elektron set-ups pretty much sound similar with bleep/bloop maniacal sequences that have no song structure because seems the 'Elektron Way' is improvised everything and if you indeed WANT to use what's called 'song mode' and perhaps try to chain patterns together....good luck on that....the most egregious representation of hardware being needlessly non-intuitive.

What I just want to make very clear is fact that YOU must bend to 'the Elektron Way', which is aggressively anti-DAW, with most of their fan boys even convinced the Analog Four easily replaces any Virus or otherwise!!

Yes, this was an important and expensive lesson learned and will just say a Quasimidi Polymorph from 1999 is a much more capable hardware sequencer that will actually polyphonically sequence external gear as well...or get an used Spektralis 2...or continue using your DAW. Heck, even a Yamaha RM1X sequencer from also, 1999, is MUCH more utilitarian because you could have a midi chain of your hardware synths and intuitive to use at that.

On a not so grim note--yes, Waldorf is doing well. There's even now a TBMS (TB Midi Stuff) iOS App Template Editor for new Pulse 2 and seems Waldorf are in a position to do something big and knobby in near distant future. I already have had a Classic Pulse Plus module, so decided to hold off, but whilst demoing it, it sure makes most other analog offerings, save from modular, seem like mere toys.

[Berni]

I personally dont understand why anyone would want to spend a good chunk of money on a drum machine in this day & age. Even revamping the 808/909 seems totally backward to me. The chinese guy saying "I would use the same cymbal again" says it all. There is so much really good drum software out there & hybrids like the Maschine that they seem so redundant & restrictive to making beats it's retarded.
As for access being a no show @ the show...seriously is anyone genuinely surprised :confused: I don't know why they have bothered the last 2 previous years...actually I do, & if you're smart so do you ;) It's called keeping up appearance's.

[namnibor]

I personally dont understand why anyone would want to spend a good chunk of money on a drum machine in this day & age. Even revamping the 808/909 seems totally backward to me. The chinese guy saying "I would use the same cymbal again" says it all. There is so much really good drum software out there & hybrids like the Maschine that they seem so redundant & restrictive to making beats it's retarded.
As for access being a no show @ the show...seriously is anyone genuinely surprised :confused: I don't know why they have bothered the last 2 previous years...actually I do, & if you're smart so do you ;) It's called keeping up appearance's.

Well, what one person may find entirely intuitive, another may find counter-so. Plus, there's also the human 'subjective/objective' element and thus, reason options still exist for several things in our tech-dependent lives. One could intelligently make the same argument for say, photography. "Why does this photography group lean more to sticking with 'old school analog film' and all that messy developing chemical process when they could go with an DSLR device?" We are all different. (Thank God)

It's also smart to realize that in this era that we are experiencing of an 'Analog Spring', there's going to be companies that are going to unapologetically 'cash-in' and *claim* analog synthesis can emulate real drums better--regardless of industry already been there--done that. But then there will *always* be the obvious in that nothing ever really *replaces entirely* real drum kits; similar to photography analogy aforementioned.

One would have thought Roland would not have moved in this direction again if it were not a capitalistic advantage 'to them'. Otherwise, Roland surely would have or is yet to re-release their then-cheap TB-303 and gang, to include the 101.

"Keeping up appearances" also has a lot to do with maintaining relevance in an ever-changing human need to explore. It's not entirely a bad thing. The Virus is still considered a massive tool that others are hell-bent to emulate via software. Kind of in the vein of the demand for the PPG sounds, thus the awesome Waldorf Nave iOS App.
(Same Waldorf development team made the iSEM App for Arturia...it was not Arturia's own team that did that.)
Was not exactly 'wowed-out' by this year's NAMM. But again, that's just this silly little human on this blue ball rolling through outer space.:rolleyes:

[Berni]

Well, what one person may find entirely intuitive, another may find counter-so. Plus, there's also the human 'subjective/objective' element and thus, reason options still exist for several things in our tech-dependent lives. One could intelligently make the same argument for say, photography. "Why does this photography group lean more to sticking with 'old school analog film' and all that messy developing chemical process when they could go with an DSLR device? We are all different.

It's also smart to realize that in this era that we are experiencing of an 'Analog Spring', there's going to be companies that are going to unapologetically 'cash-in' and *claim* analog synthesis can emulate real drums better--regardless of industry already been there--done that. But then there will *always* be the obvious in that nothing ever really *replaces entirely* real drum kits; similar to photography analogy aforementioned.

One would have thought Roland would not have moved in this direction again if it were not a capitalistic advantage 'to them'. Otherwise, Roland surely would have or is yet to re-release their then-cheap TB-303 and gang, to include the 101.

"Keeping up appearances" also has a lot to do with maintaining relevance in an ever-changing human need to explore. It's not entirely a bad thing. The Virus is still considered a massive tool that others are hell-bent to emulate via software. Kind of in the vein of the demand for the PPG sounds, thus the awesome Waldorf Nave iOS App.
(Same Waldorf development team made the iSEM App for Arturia...it was not Arturia's own team that did that.)
Was not exactly 'wowed-out' by this year's NAMM. But again, that's just this silly little human on this blue ball rolling through outer space.:rolleyes:

I think you need to evolve or die.

[namnibor]

I think you need to evolve or die.

I love sardonic humor but this seems a tad bit harsh!

Evolve this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRbWW-HZd0Q&feature=youtu.be

[Berni]

I love sardonic humor but this seems a tad bit harsh!

Evolve this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRbWW-HZd0Q&feature=youtu.be

Lol, yeah thats the kind of vision in my head I have of people who still use drum machine's :p

[TweakHead]

when it comes to drum machines, to this day, there's two takes:

one is the sequencer based drum programming, like the Roland TR series

the other is the MPC kind of way, where you perform with sensitive pads that give you the dynamics and groove of a natural performance - hopefully.

the Maschine is like the natural progression of this two things, coupled with software integration, now that we're living in the DAW age. but, it's still dependant on the very same things. plus, even on NI's factory bank you find a ton of original 808 and 909 samples. Fact is, even most modern music rellies heavily on layering those or synthesized drums in general with accoustic samples for multi-layered, real fat drums.

the coming together of Dave Smith (almost the father of MIDI) and Roger Linn, the man behind the MPC and the inventor of midi swing, quantize, etc; in the form of Tempest doesn't read to me like a step back, but a clear sign that what worked back then still works today, but that's entirely dependant on your workflow and setup of course.

owning Maschine, you know how the physical interface has an impact on how you make your beats, and having a simple and intuitive interface allows you to dive deeper on the drum side of making music. same thing can be said for these machines of the past, some of them being used to this day both on studio or live.

[namnibor]

+1
It seems the brand new, released at NAMM '14, Elektron's 'RTHM' is aimed at direct competition with the DSI Tempest.
However, as I understand it, DSI finally implemented a sort of 'midi out' that's limited to only ONE channel, at the sacrifice of a voice/track. Both devices use samples. Elektron has limited their RTHM to permanently assigned analog drum sound and type per voice/track, and sample import is limited to only what they allow. They claim that these 'limitations' give the edge over Tempest.
I highly doubt Elektron will allow midi out to ONLY to sync with ONLY their other machines...again, Elektron claims limitations on their machines spawn creativity.
That's a crap-tastic way of being able to legally state, "Full MIDI SPEC/SUPPORT" on their descriptions to the unwary and keeps in-place Elektron's desire all along only to make unaware customers into 'fanboys' and get them to purchase their other machines in order to get midid out, for instance--but that still is mostly within a 'closed Elektron system'...it's one really weird and wonder how razor sharp the fine line of truth in advertising and legalities it straddles?!
At least DSI is quite clear and honest about: 1)no sample import, and 2)midi out is only one channel at sacrifice of a voice/track.
I realize that limitations can indeed spawn an atmosphere for focused creativity but midi being around 30 years now, it seems people are not exactly adhering to the so-called 'industry standard' set-up.

So, is the continual re-hash of the electronic drum machine an exercise in blatant capitalism? Could we also say same with Korg and their seemingly continual release of their Triton sound engine, which is entirely ROM sample based? Roland's "Fantom" sound engine? Both just introduced yet new series in what one could surmise as a 'dead horse' at NAMM this past week.

Maybe some things are indeed so good there's a reason they keep hanging around, just like those 808/909 samples.

Or...

Is it simply we humans that insist on NOT moving-on?

[Berni]

when it comes to drum machines, to this day, there's two takes:

one is the sequencer based drum programming, like the Roland TR series

the other is the MPC kind of way, where you perform with sensitive pads that give you the dynamics and groove of a natural performance - hopefully.

the Maschine is like the natural progression of this two things, coupled with software integration, now that we're living in the DAW age. but, it's still dependant on the very same things. plus, even on NI's factory bank you find a ton of original 808 and 909 samples. Fact is, even most modern music rellies heavily on layering those or synthesized drums in general with accoustic samples for multi-layered, real fat drums.

the coming together of Dave Smith (almost the father of MIDI) and Roger Linn, the man behind the MPC and the inventor of midi swing, quantize, etc; in the form of Tempest doesn't read to me like a step back, but a clear sign that what worked back then still works today, but that's entirely dependant on your workflow and setup of course.

owning Maschine, you know how the physical interface has an impact on how you make your beats, and having a simple and intuitive interface allows you to dive deeper on the drum side of making music. same thing can be said for these machines of the past, some of them being used to this day both on studio or live.

Actually the MPC is a sampler & does NOT generate any sound unlike the the drum machines I am talking about which are completely redundant at this point as far as I'm concerned. Sure there are people still using them...hey there are still some old farts putting together analog synths but I dont hear any MUSIC out of them just a bunch of boring blips & squelches.:( & yes if I want that generic beat box sound (I mean any of them that have ever been manufactured in the last 30 years) i can, but they mostly sound like crap so why would I. This is 2014...Hello!
The one thing I used to hate when I started DJing was the forty somethings coming up to me & say "play some 60's stuff' thankfully there generation are mostly dead now so I don't have to hear about the good old days & play there (mostly) crap music.
I think most people have the generic 808/909 sampled out the ying yang & releasing ANOTHER box with buttons, knobs & flashing LED's isn't going to make it sound any more interesting.
I was a drummer in several bands for many years playing the real thing & for me the Maschine is about as good as it gets for modern beat making. Before that it was all about the MPC but times have changed.
The point I am trying to get at is the people who embraced the new drum sound back then are just as stuck in the sound as old farts that still like 60's music. I guarantee there are very few young electronic producers even bothering with trade shows like NAMM.
Seriously, why would they? With DAW's like Ableton live etc. who needs a bunch of flashing boxes with knobs to wank off too :p
Oh yeah thats right, young electronic producers are mostly wankers...please disregard this post :rolleyes:

[Timo]

Thanks for sharing your opinion, everyone's entitled to one and as always you speak for yourself. :)

I see drum machines as physical modelling versions of the static drum samples you have in your collection. Sure you can process and warp samples any way you wish in Kontakt, Live or MPC or whatever, but with analog drum machines you can truly modulate the sounds on the fly. There's the difference. An instrument, or a sample.

For me, however, drum machines are not so interesting as they always seem very electro, minimal or 80's. Not really the sound I'm after unless layered with other stuff, but for many people they are.

[MBTC]

Also owning a Maschine, I do agree it seems hard to get excited about new drum machines, because in addition to the sample library we also have the drum synths and the ability to play other plug-ins and tweak and manipulate in real-time. Because percussion is the least of my CPU worries in a DAW environment, dedicated hardware for this doesn't bring much to my particular setup.

But another side of this I see is that new gear is inspirational, and a because an existing piece of gear in our collection can perform a certain task it doesn't preclude a new piece of gear that also performs the task from bringing a fresh sound to the palette. A new piece of gear inspires discovery and creativity, perhaps even more so if there's an interesting story behind it (like the designer of a previously legendary instrument). Sometimes acquiring new stuff keeps us motivated. Even just getting a new plug-in can make me want to sit down and learn it in depth, and at least for folks like me who do it purely for the love of music, that can make it all worthwhile.

It's amazing what impact just a change in physical layout can have. I wrote before about what a gamechanger it was for me when I bought the Maschine stand and mounted it atop a Roland PDS-10. Who would have thought a couple of pieces of metal make that big of a difference? Just a simple shift in ergonomics changed & improved how I use Maschine and the impact of it to me in large amounts. Berni, also being a former drummer, do you remember that feeling when gigging and someone moved one of your instruments about 1/8th of an inch out of kilter and you immediately felt the impact? If so you can relate to what I mean about ergonomic layout here.

So I don't want a new drum machine right now but I guess there are others that are interested in these. In terms of my personal thoughts -- I look at the new stuff at NAMM this year and I have a hard time getting excited about any of it. Nord is starting to get confusing with their product line and positioning of things, I don't know what I would do with a Moog that I can't already do with my Leipzig-S (the comments in the Moog vid about the sequencer being a "future possibility" are going to be funny to any Leipzig owner), I really don't know what Roland is even trying to accomplish these days or at least how their products apply to me. As far as this Bitwig Studio DAW -- one of the first questions they should answer in their FAQ is why do we need yet another full priced DAW and what does Bitwig bring to the table that current DAWs do not? Fail, it wasn't there.

In the mean time I'm pretty happy with my current gear setup. I'd love to see Access suddenly get themselves excited about their own Virus product line and do something interesting or innovative, particularly as it relates to the integration aspect, but I stopped holding out for that day about three or four NAMM shows back.

[TweakHead]

interesting posts here!

owning the Maschine, you guys need to realize you have a drum machine already...

I mean, would you be ok with just the software? or do you value the velocity sensitive pads? and the interface itself?

I think the physical interface is much more valuable then the sounds themselves. I mean, why on Earth would I need Maschine just for the library sounds? (they're damn good, but so are milions of sample packs out there?), or the software? owning a daw, how come I'd be interested in yet another piece of software to sequence, pitch-shift, time-stretch, or even, the recent and aclaimed drum synths, that look just like the Kong ones in old Reason, and sound no different then those boring samples on an 808 or 909, just like any synthesized drum sound will, imo. being so modern and proficient with digital tools, you know the source is just the raw material and what makes things stand out is the processing. and in drums, layering!

let me also tell you this: Roger Linn is the master when it comes to drum pads. both Maschine and Push, and Tempest owe that to him. you know of how close Akai and Ableton are, right? no wonder, this know how is what makes it work. compare the pads on such machines with those on a Novation SL mk2 and you'll instantly know why. and Tempest, sounds like 80's? hell, go to a store and try it, then process those sounds with your plug-in chain of choice and you have full spectrum analogue voices, midi synced, perfect sensitive pads, so forth and so on... just saying...

Myself, I don't even use Battery. I use audio channels. and I can make it sound like a real drummer if I want to. but will probably get Maschine, just for the interaction itself, the physicial interface mind you, not the software side of things. Maschine is a controller with excepcional pads and software integration, period.

Analogue doesn't necessarily sound old and dusty. Just visit a friend that happens to own a euro rack system and you'll instantly be reminded why... just my 2 cents

[TweakHead]

Oh, and new Moog seems nice! the only one in there that I'd like to have.

Did you know that the Sub Moogs are able to phase retrig their waves? making it as rock solid as samplers for Bass, for example? same thing with the Minitaur btw.

plus, Moog filter is Moog filter, and the distortion (multi-drive) on that thing sounds awsome.

but overall, agree with you guys... happy about my current setup, still have much to explore... and would also like to see something new from Access!

[MBTC]

interesting posts here!

owning the Maschine, you guys need to realize you have a drum machine already...

I mean, would you be ok with just the software? or do you value the velocity sensitive pads? and the interface itself?

I think the physical interface is much more valuable then the sounds themselves. I mean, why on Earth would I need Maschine just for the library sounds? (they're damn good, but so are milions of sample packs out there?), or the software?

Well I think Berni's original point, at least the one I intended to agree with, was that $1500 for a drum machine is stupid-expensive up against something like Maschine which is only a few hundred dollars, offers excellent DAW software, excellent integration with other DAWs, an amazing library (not just a bunch of samples but well-organized kits as well), a free synth pack-in, (Massive) and more recently dedicated drum synths for creating your own sounds and real time manipulation, and that's over and above the great piece of hardware it is as a percussive controller or sampler. It they want to sell a bleeps and burps machine for a couple, or maybe three hundred bucks then it starts to seem a little more competitive with what's out there today.

The physical interface is important as you said (see my prior comment about just the importance of something as simple as a stand which allows for more flexible angles to position the hardware), but for me the beauty of Maschine is how much time they've spent on the integration portion of it. They *GET* software, whereas many hardware companies don't.

The way I use Maschine right now is I have a second smaller monitor sitting to the right of my primary 27" monitor. I run the Maschine in standalone and keep the window on that monitor (as it is close to the actual hardware), it sort of feels like an instrument in itself with a dedicated display (and I don't mean the tiny little screens, I mean the 1280x1024 monitor running the standalone app). Then I run Cubase on my primary monitor. That way they are in two separate processes (as opposed to running the plugin inside the DAW). I can edit the Maschine project for drums, and just drag the clips from Maschine into Cubase... it's an instamatic drum loop factory :)

I don't even know if that's how I will continue to use it, because it comes with some drawbacks (like if I change the tempo in Cubase I need to then do same in Maschine and redrag the audio clip over, whereas if I just ran the Maschine plug-in I would not need to do that.)

But after you have that kind of integration in your workflow, going back to a piece of hardware that doesn't even attempt to integrate with the DAW (or does it badly), and then paying 2 or 3 times more for it is not really a tempting offer, IMO.

[Timo]

Waldorf:
http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-2pole.jpg (http://www.waldorf-music.info/images/stories/2Pole/2_pole.jpg) http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/namm14-2pole2.jpg (http://www.waldorf-music.info/images/stories/2Pole/2_pole600.jpg)
[2-Pole (http://www.waldorf-music.info/en/2pole-overview.html)] info.

More on the AIRA.

5LE0oGkYx40

Looks like there'll be at the very least two boxes.

One or two for drums (TR08/09), and possibly another one or two for synth (TB03?/SH01?).

http://www.roland.com/aira

Public showing in Feb.

Hope it's not another MCx0x knockoff.

[namnibor]

Yes, the Waldorf 2-Pole is what stained my brain and a great value and very utilitarian. Here's the specs from waldorf-music.de:


Specifications

Specifications
•Fully analog signal path: Preamp -> Filter -> Overdrive
•Award winning Waldorf analog multimode filter technology
•Filter can be modulated by LFO, envelope follower or external signal
•Preamp with overdrive capability for direct connection of instruments like bass or guitar
•Post-filter overdrive with adjustable gain
•LFO with different ranges, rate up to several kHz
•Envelope follower with trigger section and different modes
•True Bypass
•Cascadable to stereo (for two 2-pole units)

Controls
•Input Gain with level LED
•Rectify pot for mixing-in the rectified input signal
•Filter Cutoff pot
•Filter Resonance pot
•Bipolar Filter Env Mod pot
•Filter Type switch
•Overdrive pot
•Activation switch
•Output Level pot
•LFO Range switch with 3 positions
•LFO Rate pot with LED
•LFO Mod Depth pot
•Trigger Button with LED
•Trigger Threshold pot
•Trigger Hold pot
•Envelope Follower Source switch with 3 positions
•Envelope Follower Attack pot
•Envelope Follower Decay pot

Connections
•Audio In
•Audio Out
•Cutoff CV In
•Envelope Follower CV In
•Trigger In
•Power DC 12V

:D

[TweakHead]

@MBTC

yes, all that you (and Berni) are saying makes perfect sense. But that's entirely dependant on your priorities and your approach to music making - very similar to mine even!

just don't think that just because you enjoy working mainly with software and integrated hardware you can claim to be more evolved then people relying mainly on hardware, because that's just two sides of the same coin, and you can get good results both ways. the way I see it, namnibor is right when he says that there's different strokes for different folks. to simply disregard hardware based setups as old-fashioned stuff is a bit short sighted. one of the key aspects of this analogue revival thing is that many producers who have grown with software emulations of the old classics have developed a serious interest in the analogue sound, because of it's undeniable characteristics as opposed to digital forms of synthesis, even virtual analogue. midi still is up to the task, provided you have a decent audio interface to begin with, if you have a word clock - like you find on RME interfaces - sync issues are next to none, and with enough I/O your old fashioned gear is totally integrated into your setup and the sound quality of those things are undeniable.

While I like such things as Massive for the possibilities and interface, I think an old-fashioned Waldorf Q still eats it for breakfast when it comes to sound and programming possibilities, let alone the SH 101 (if they do decide to come up with it again) sounds better then any software synth I know off, even being a limited mono instrument like it always was.

There's still plenty of emulations of the TR machines out there, both in hardware and software. Not to mention the TB 303, of course. Why do you think that happens? That's legacy. Some genres have been born out of the possibilities and sound characteristics of such machines. XOXBOX still sells A LOT, TR clones do to. some people rely on this very stuff for live acts, have you ever listened to a TR 808 or 909 connected directly to a mixer on a PA system? that's why analogue isn't out of fashion, there's simply no argument here. that think rocks on it's own, no need for added compression or something, it cuts through and is easy to change patterns on the fly, that's why many VERY successful acts still use it up to this day...

So are we really disregarding a machine we don't even know the specs of yet, just because it's probably analogue voice based? If they do come up with a 101 I, for one, am surely getting one. Big deal if I get 5ms of latency, all it takes is turning on delay compensation on the DAW and it's done!

Check out this old-fashioned dudes who desperately need to evolve XD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baMs9P50J-w

[Timo]

Aira = 4 boxes. TR-8 (808, possibly 909 too), TB-3 (303), VT-3 (Vocal Transformer) and System-1 (SH101?) keyboard.

Virtual analogue.

cy428RHu1mw

They showed a pic of all four boxes (http://www.roland.com/aira/_assets/images/contents/img_detail008.png), but it was heavily in shadow, so I enhanced it as much as I could (although the colours became distorted somewhat):

http://www.infekted.org/virus/images/various/AIRA.png

http://www.roland.com/aira/

[namnibor]

Yes, I found it interesting that they are doing their best to 'dance around the semantics' and to be determined NOT to use 'virtual analog' in describing what they have done and to be releasing.
Seems to be VA, just by yet another term given by Roland.
Makes one wonder then, what then, were all the 'MC-xxx' machines in Roland's minds in which they at ad nausea, after Roland seemed to wash their hands of 'Analog'?
Was there a special anagram for that as well? LOL

perhaps I am missing something??! Why does this not excite me?
There's something to be said of the term, "beating a dead horse". :p

Please correct me if I am entirely missing something 'new'.

Seems to be more of Roland's wish to 'cash-in' on the 'Analog Spring'.

Cannot wait to see how Yamaha may perhaps in same vein of thought, redefines their 'XG/General Midi' term to perhaps try to do same (I am being sardonic because would be really surprised if a recreated/new CS-Series real analog came about), as Yamaha is so huge they no longer even need to innovate as Korg has chosen again to do.

Just my opinion. We all have them. :rolleyes:

[Timo]

The MCx0x lines of grooveboxes were ROMplers made in the 90's, so a different beast entirely.

I'm not adverse to VA. Unlike the varying properties of analogue electronic components, digital is extremely stable and dependable, and virtual analogue these days has the potential to sound very good. But it can sound equally crap if corners are cut in production (to cash in by limiting hardware DSP, or making a faff of the modelling).

However, the 303 et al have been digitally modelled so many times by other companies, why should Roland fare any better in this regard? It's all very well scientists putting their white coats on, analysing different aspects of the boxes in clinical environments and attempting to model them using DSP, but it's the producers using the boxes in ways the scientists didn't test for which will make or break them.

The algorithms are hanging in the balance.

Of course, they could be a lot of fun.

[namnibor]

Yes, you are so, so correct. It was in fact, musicians USING the original Roland analog instruments in non-foreseen ways, and those boxes were extremely cheap instruments at the time, (the analogs) much as the original Korg MS-20 was extremely cheap and like the Roland gear, it was really not until a bit later their non-foreseen application made them as popular as they are to where A LOT of knock-offs of those originals, still in analog, sell well even today.
I am all for VA, as the Virus as well as my Waldorf Q have finally made me want to seriously finally thin out my herd of different synths acquired in my quest to find what works for me. Virtual analog, when done extremely right, in a mix, even a hardcore analog purist is going to have a far cry differentiating.
Somehow, it almost seems like Roland is doing a "recycle/repeat and rinse" in guise of consumerism and marketing, but will rightly admit I could very well be dead wrong...the horse has been a dead and beaten horse at this point, many times over and would hope for innovation in it's stead.

Yes, I understand and thanks for pointing out those MC-xxx were ROMplers...so would this new anagram by Roland be a "Virtual Rompler/Analog"...yes, being a bit flip, as is my wont. :rolleyes:
Then again, we are really fortunate to be owners of various incarnations of the Virus Engine that still has no problem selling as well as winning awards...there's a very good reason for that.

[TweakHead]

agree with what's said above, all of it.

still think Roland could probably cash in by making exact replicas of their old products, based on their own legacy. they could and perhaps should have done it back in the 90's when this little toys that were, indeed, prodution flops and commercial failures back in the day for Roland, were being sought after because more and more people were starting to make electronic music with all these new genres that were emerging: like detroit's techno, the dance scene in europe (mostly trance and house) and the rave scene all around, and goa trance of course...

Back then there's people already saying they were missing the oportunity to sell big and give these products a bigger and wider life spawn and reach. They totally missed it, and their line of products has been boring as hell ever since, to be honest. Nothing exciting has come out of those labs in a long long time. So why would this be any different?

There's a thing that immediately got my attention that I didn't see mentioned both here and other foruns. As simple as this: one of the advantages of a Virus versus some mono analogue of this new analogue spring is in its depth! It's expensive to build a poly analogue, expensive to build a multi-mode filter, let alone a pair of them, it's certainly not feasable to include a 16 slot mod matrix inside such analogue machines, unless costumers are paying the big buck for them, right? We all know this: digital offers more options, can sound just as good or nearly as good, but also has a lot of tricks of it's own and depth to compensate for the lack of randomness and agressive component distortion and that kind of thing...

But look at those pictures again: Roland isn't trying to come up with a VA that would presumably compete with the Virus, Nord Lead, Ultranova, so forth and so on, no... They're coming up with a keyboard whose interface resembles the SH 101 (or Bass station 2 or similar machines), but it's digital. That means: let's all hope this new VIRTUAL ANALOGUE technology of theirs is really all that much - if any of you even consider they could possibly do a better job at it then Access or U-he on that department - but with stripped down specs, like if it were analogue. And what about Gaia? Isn't that sort like their new SH-101? Also a very simple VA that sounds nothing like Roland's older SH synths, but manages to fail on offering more options then your cheap "analogue spring" mono synth does. Easy enough: Roland RIP!

EDIT:

I'm willing to bet that due to this future failure from Roland, XOXBOX will keep on selling big along with TB303 software emulations. Let's see if this Synth1 will leave up to a direct comparison against Lush 101 or Tal Noise's 101. And Acidlab can keep selling their miami 808 and rest assured this was all but a rumor and Roland isn't going to come up with real analogue machines anymore, so they can keep doing their thing... I mean, how lame is it that if I want the classic Roland sound I can easily get it in Euro Rack when the original company is doing workstations and lame stuff that nobody wants?

[Timo]

AIRA product info:

http://www.roland.com/products/en/SYSTEM-1/
http://www.roland.com/products/en/TR-8/
http://www.roland.com/products/en/TB-3/
http://www.roland.com/products/en/VT-3/

System1 (a follow on from the System 100/100M/700 of the 70's) looked good as you'd also be able to load in Roland software plugins to emulate other Roland synths such as the SH101, until I read no velocity on the keys, wtfark?

Initial hands-on TB3 and TR8 Sonicstate demos:

TB-3 (Touch Bassline)
vOa9VTAc73Q

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2014/02/14/review-roland-aira-tb3-acid-for-the-21st-century/
£245.

TR-8 (inc. 9o9)
VYujlzVDTkI

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2014/02/14/review-roland-aira-tr8-drum-machine/
£400.

AIRA will be officially unveiled tomorrow at Utrecht Dancefair 2014, Netherlands.

Cue Berni ranting and various insults...

[Berni]

Cue Berni ranting and various insults...

OK then...butt ugly, overpriced, NON analog, NON upgradable, NON customizable pieces of plastic that sound about as current as Hawkwind ;)

[TweakHead]

well, this feels a overpriced, certainly not analogue, don't know about upgrades, being digital might get an update or two... the mesmerizing thing about them, though, is that they're really as useful as D16's group plug-ins, in that it's some digital recreation of the classics and that's it, they haven't gone the extra mile to actually make this things talk to new audiences, with more features, most of which are mentioned on this videos...

the 303 clone is pretty much proof that they haven't learned from their previous MC 303 products and how people usually compare them to real 303, which is a synthesizer, albeit a fairly simple one, perhaps one of the worst sounding filters ever built, but contributed to "that" sound... seriously, I'd much rather get a XOXBox instead of this, 'cause I'd be getting an analogue filter whose circuit has been as close to the original as humanely possible. plus cv to use the sequencer on other machines, besides that very special sound that you either love or hate (I do like it)... the introduction of some glitchy stuff, and their attempt to introduce normal teebee sounds with the added distortion and fx thing could be cool, if they were real fx to use instead of "roompler" shit...

same thing with the 808/909... the only appeal it's got, besides being a piece of history is for some purists to get "that" sound synthesized that particular way that's had a tremendous influence on many many genres. if you're going digital with this, might as well get some sample packs, or even use Maschine' s drum synthesizers or other plug-ins or instruments, and the sound won't be to far off from these things... and the interface, workflow, even the new features feel... lame!

but when he turns the two together we get a sense of what this could be about: those sounds combined together is music history. shame the company that's done it doesn't live up to their own legacy, just a money trick, nothing to see here...

[Berni]

same thing with the 808/909... the only appeal it's got, besides being a piece of history is for some purists to get "that" sound synthesized that particular way that's had a tremendous influence on many many genres. if you're going digital with this, might as well get some sample packs, or even use Maschine' s drum synthesizers or other plug-ins or instruments, and the sound won't be to far off from these things... and the interface, workflow, even the new features feel... lame!


Yeah I agree tweak & they are not trying to reproduce a fricken church organ, it's just basic kicks, snare's, hi hats etc. & even so called 'purist's' whoever the fuck they are could not tell the difference between this thing, the real thing or the sampled thing in the mix. Any basic synth like Live's operator or Mashines synth drums to name a few can easily replicate the sounds of the 808/909. Complete waste of time & totally relying on there legacy to sell this recycled & out dated crap...rant over :cool:

[MBTC]

As far as I can tell these TR/TB machines are just romplers with fixed samples from the legacy machines. It seems just crazy to release something like that up against the likes of Maschine, where you have a sample library of incredible size, and/or VA drum synths , and/or the use of third party VST plugins to generate the sounds, and/or can be used as a sampler to sample analog sounds from my Leipzig or some other synth, or any combination of the above. How can they expect anyone to get excited over "134 presets" in this day and age? Yes I know these little boxes have their own processor but neither percussion nor bass grooves use much CPU there, so there's not a lot gained from that.

I was a little intrigued by the SYSTEM-1 synth, wondering at first what they meant by "Plug-out" technology. Apparently this is the ability of the DSP on the synth to host plug-ins independent of your computer -- now that's starting to sound useful. But wait, not the VST's you already have, but apparently they mean rather Roland-specific plug-ins that they may or may not release in the future, hoping to sell to us at currently unannounced price points or release schedules... Maybe that SH-101 emulation will materialize and maybe not! That little wheel on the thing must be like the wheel of fortune, you pay your money then spin it for some promise of a random result. Meanwhile the thing only does 4 voices, only has a 2 octave keyboard, and they are pricing in the range of Ultranova apparently?

Are we supposed to laugh with them or at them?

[Timo]

As far as I can tell these TR/TB machines are just romplers with fixed samples from the legacy machines.

No samples in any of them, it's all virtual analogue.

[Timo]

OK then...butt ugly, overpriced, NON analog, NON upgradable, NON customizable pieces of plastic that sound about as current as Hawkwind ;)

Devil's advocate, regards upgrades/customize/VA/price, the TR-8 will have TR707 emulation added to it in a future update. So virtual analogue 808, 909 and 707 in one box with sequencing and a stack of other features. Something you couldn't easily do with real analogue without the price going stratospheric.

It was stated that the System-1 (based on their former System 100 analogue synth) will have SH-101 and SH-7 models added to it, possibly more. Again, nigh on impossible with real analogue.

I think you stand to get a lot more out of them than the Volcas.

[TweakHead]

Devil's advocate, regards upgrades/customize/VA/price, the TR-8 will have TR707 emulation added to it in a future update. So virtual analogue 808, 909 and 707 in one box with sequencing and a stack of other features. Something you couldn't easily do with real analogue without the price going stratospheric.

It was stated that the System-1 (based on their former System 100 analogue synth) will have at least SH-101 and SH-7 models added to it, and likely more. Again, nigh on impossible with real analogue.

I think you stand to get a lot more out of them than the Volcas.

agreed. but comparing the prices, there's a difference. and the volca's have the extra appeal of being entry level analogue circuit machines...

the SH 101 plug-in makes it look like they've got an eye on the money that's being made recreating their classics. only thing is: good luck trying to beat Lush 101 or Tal Noise's new 101 on that department - even them being the original creators of the classics. They make some statement on that department, but it's almost laughable, creating a diagram for an electric circuit (analogue synth) is one thing, being able to reproduce this behaviour on a digital platform is quite another. Being proficient at the first doesn't necessarily mean you will succeed in the other and vice-versa. DSP has come a long way, and the competition is using very recent technology on their products like the zero feedback delay filters, for instance, and the random factor on the oscillators goes wey beyond simple drift and free running waves, it's all tweaked to near perfection these days...

like Berni said, I highly doubt that the purists would be able to tell the difference in a mix. and even if they could, it's neglegible at best. character is cool of course, but goes into a package called "nuances" in audio, and when you're surfing similar watters, even using the Virus, for example, you can get damn close to it. So I really don't see the appeal here, even less so to people that own said plug-ins that already emulate this classic. Same thing with the Juno family, and even the JP8080.

I have to admit that a DSP synthesizer with a decent interface that can load other synthesizers to use the internal DSP is an idea that appeals to me. I think I've talked about this with MBTC before. But the idea discussed back then, to my mind, was something more open - to third party developers - and more feature rich, like a Nord Modular. If you're getting simpler then most digital plug-ins, with a controller and a DSP, and it's all by Roland, and they're only aiming to emulate their own - very simple architecture - synthesizers, I see this as being an entry level synthesis thing for kids that are starting to make their own productions, and perhaps even a good platform for learning the basics of subtractive synthesis; but nothing that could compete with my Virus C, UltraNova (or SuperNova), Nord Lead, Korg MS 2000, Radias, Prophecy, Nord Modular, so forth and so on...

How come they can't simply profit from this wave of new analogue mono instruments and present us something similar to their good old SH 101, a simple and cheap instrument whose interface and features inspire you to use it a lot. Like Novation did with their Bass Station 2, for example. Even though the sound of it isn't very Rolandish, the interface and features are rather similar - and more appealing to me then just another emulation, with a controller attached to it.

If you think offering 707, 808 and 909 in one package is cool, take a look at Arturia's Spark and think about that again, I mean... But wait, Arturia also has plenty more drum machines in their package, Linn Drums and all of that..

But must be fun to play with them all at once, not saying otherwise: instant old school rave music with tweakage very similar to the originals.

Is there anyone here that would actually prefer to have this instead of a XOXBOX (for 303), and Acid Labs Miami (TR)? anyone? not a single person? noooo ooooone? :twisted:

[MBTC]

No samples in any of them, it's all virtual analogue.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what these things are. In the Sonicstate vid for the TB-3, if you watch right around the 3-4 minute range, he seems to basically say there is kind of a synth engine in there but you can't really get into it and do anything with it. I assume this means you've got a bunch of waveforms, some of which are basic like saw/square and some of them are more elaborate "synth sounds". But you cannot change the way the virtual oscillators "oscillate" in any meaningful way. Even just looking at what's available on the front panel, it looks like there's not enough knobs to be anything like a real VA synth, even an entry level one. Being able to just change cutoff, decay etc is something along the lines of what a rompler like Nexus provides.

I could be wrong but that's what I read into it. If you look at the official spec sheet from Roland, it says "Instruments Preset Patches: 134" and says nothing about oscillators or ability to create your own sounds. Not saying it doesn't have it, just saying that's where I came away with the impression I did. It says I can store up to 64 user created patterns but doesn't say anything about user created sounds.

[namnibor]

Roland is notorious for using semantics to their advantage...and...does anyone remember when Roland *did their own thing with the MIDI Spec*....and how I think GM2 came to be?

Nick Batt did not hide his DISDAIN for TB3 in his review. Yes, it was loud and clear to me that you can NOT get to the synth engine to do any meaningful tweaks and looks to me to be aimed directly to the newer, young incredibly self-entitled "instant music gratification LIVE fans" or it's Roland actually not having any remaining engineers nor documentation of their own classic instruments, unlike Korg, whom reproduced the MS-20 in 87% size but same sound and interface.
Almost seems like Roland's lame attempt to COPY Korg's Kaosolator Series with that quasi touch pad. I would think a Stylophone would be just as "modern" as this crap-tastic attempt on Roland's part.
Still seems like samples...just by another name. I will eat crow when am found to be wrong and enjoy it at same time. :shock:

All amusing to watch happen...meanwhile, we all have the mother of modern DSP Synthesis; VIRUS! :D

[Timo]

ROMplers usually refer specifically to samples, not presets, and you also mentioned fixed samples. This isn't the case.

What they mean by presets is the different virtual analogue oscillator waveforms available. The original 3o3 had two equivalent 'preset' oscillator waveforms: saw and square. The new TB-3 has 134 of them, including the original saw and square models. Others are more synthy/lead/fx. It would have been nice to have had oscillator modulation on the square (PWM) with other waveshaping, and LFOs, but guessing they wanted a direct 303 clone than your usual normal mono synth (which the System-1 would cover).

People say where's the Env and Decay knobs? These are controllable via the pressure sensitive touchpad.

I don't think there's anything you can do on the original 303 that you can't do with the new one, other than the CV/Gate, but there's MIDI for that. Everything is there... The cutoff, res, accent, env and decay (touchpad), oscillators (presets), tuning (touchpad), and significantly better pattern/sequencing.

Seems no less a synth than the original was. In fact the reverse is true. It's just in a different form to what us geeks are used to.

To me it doesn't matter if it's analogue or virtual analogue, Volca vs Aira, if it sounds good it is good, doesn't matter how you get there. As Tweak says, DSPs have come a long way since their early days. I do think a good hardware interface tied to a good VA model with a knob per function is worth more than just a soft-synth on a screen with menus and a mouse. It's the more direct, creative interaction you often need for exploring things that you would normally get bogged down with with a mouse.

I wasn't at all convinced about the new AIRA range until watching the live Dancefair stream when it was unveiled. The TR in particular looks like a huge heap of fun to use in realtime. Was far less impressed with the System-1, but that could be the demo guy using far too much nooby reverb.

[MBTC]

ROMplers usually refer specifically to samples, not presets, and you also mentioned fixed samples. This isn't the case.


Perhaps to some, but ROM stands for read-only memory, and if you have a fixed Saw wave that cannot be skewed or the harmonic timbres changed, or a pulse wave where the pulse width cannot be widened, you effectively have a read-only waveform in memory, and it really does not matter if the way they are physically stored in memory is in a map of bits or series of static commands.

I do understand what you're saying but I'm calling a spade a spade on this one. A real synthesizer lets you modulate one oscillator with another and so forth.

These aren't real synths in my book and it's why Roland is scared to use the word oscillator in their specs.

[Timo]

ROMplers do usually mean a ROM audio sample based synth, rather than realtime synthesis of algorithms.

Perhaps to some, but ROM stands for read-only memory, and if you have a fixed Saw wave that cannot be skewed or the harmonic timbres changed, or a pulse wave where the pulse width cannot be widened, you effectively have a read-only waveform, and it really does not matter if the way they are physically stored in memory is in a map of bits or series of static commands.

By your definition the original 303 therefore had a read-only memory of 2 fixed presets. Saw and square. Was it any less a 'synth'?

A real synthesizer lets you modulate one oscillator with another and so forth.

Of course, but it's not trying to be a Virus/Nord/Waldorf, it's trying to be a 303.

[namnibor]

Like I said, it all about semantics.

meanwhile, check out this NAMM 2014 Waldorf Pulse 2 newly released contest video they have on-going. This is a REAL synth and I am enjoying the heck out of mine with Virus KC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwd9ccZHgaQ

[MBTC]

ROMplers do usually mean a ROM audio sample based synth, rather than realtime synthesis of algorithms.

By your definition the original 303 therefore had a read-only memory of 2 fixed presets. Saw and square. Was it any less a 'synth'?


The whole thing that made the original TB-303 interesting was that it was never really meant to be a musical instrument, it was meant to be a little bleeps and blurps box, a little more than a metronome tick tock box, that you practiced real music against in the absence of any sort of real bassline solution. What made it legendary was the fact that there was nothing else like it available at the time, so many people took it and repurposed it in ways Roland never intended. The original TB-303 did not face the likes of soft synth solutions that do much more for pennies.

So yes, adjusted for modern technological progress, in today's terms, I would say that the original 303 was a zit on the ass of the lowest end of todays soft synths, and that makes it all the less acceptable to release something like this with all the hype and ask several hundred dollars for it in todays market.

But, they say the thing sounds pretty good so if someone really needs a standalone bass line unit like this and is willing to pay that, then so be it. If someone wants one they should ignore my opinions.

By the way I learned something from your post that I didn't know. I thought the TB-303 let you tune between saw and square, achieving infinite ground between the two kind of like the Leipzig-S or other real analogs, I didn't realize it was an all or none switch between saw and square. I didn't realize until I looked up an image that they did that. Weird but kind of makes sense on how they were positioning the device back then.

[Berni]

I think the point everyone is missing is...do we really need another 808, 909, 303 etc. Fricken bored of that shit years ago. Only crustys making psy trance might still find it interesting in the same way the old one note bass line never gets boring to them :rolleyes: Thats what too much acid does to ya!

[MBTC]

I think the point everyone is missing is...do we really need another 808, 909, 303 etc. Fricken bored of that shit years ago. Only crustys making psy trance might still find it interesting in the same way the old one note bass line never gets boring to them :rolleyes: Thats what too much acid does to ya!

I personally don't have a lot of use for that acid sound, but some folks do apparently, because of the going rate for an authentic TB-303 and the number of clones that have popped up. This is why I don't really blame Roland at all for releasing a TB-303 remake, I just think in today's market it's not worth what they are asking for it. Maybe if the price came down more I'd be interested in it just as an inspirational tech toy kind of gadget, which is really what the original TB-303 was meant to be (a toy). It's just that for those of us who work in a DAW (most of us?) the pattern/groove/bassline options are just way past this, and my own needs don't really dictate a standalone box, and if they did I'll be honest I think FLStudio Mobile on my iPad probably does a lot more than this thing.

[Berni]

Yeah I think if thats the sound I was going for I'd spend $15 on this for my iPad. Spent many a happy hour on the original program :D Acieeeeed!

http://www.rebirthapp.com/

[MBTC]

Yeah I think if thats the sound I was going for I'd spend $15 on this for my iPad. Spent many a happy hour on the original program :D Acieeeeed!

http://www.rebirthapp.com/

The basic concept of highly tweaked sequence patterns isn't too different from the enjoyment I get out of the 8-step sequencer of the Leipzig-S -- the whole process can be a lot of fun, and maybe being able to independently control each (true analog) oscillator's pitch as part of the step, as well as the VCF is part of what's spoiling me. Then again with analog you give up some things, too, like not being able to store patches... lol. Maybe that's one reason nobody wants to do real analog anymore, the modern crop of musicians wasn't around to see all of the creature comforts that are foregone with real analog... Just simple things like being able to load a project into the DAW and be able to recall all patches -- that was the real watershed feature that sold me on software as the future, because its that important to music making. With real analog you gotta sample it if you like it, otherwise you'll never hear the same noise twice.

[TweakHead]

@berni

so you think only people who have clearly took to much acid are into the acid sound? that's not just some huge generalization, that's even stupid... just saying. there's a lot of genres you're more fond of that have an acid sub genre in there, or no?

and it's not just one note bass, it's being able to play it for 30k crowds with big PA systems and the thing sounding stellar. give it a try one day, you'll see it takes more then a load of acid or two ;)

another thing. the simple sound of 808 or 909 may have been abused, yes. but take a look around, there's this samples after they've been on a SP 1200, an MPC 60 (for the grit of the Analogue to Digital convertion alone), all sorts of analogue equipment, plus, you really need to layer them with others, still being used in almost any genre I can think of in EDM.

303? it even makes it to pop music sometimes and it doesn't sound much like psytrance to me, it's just the classic rave sound of the toy that feels almost like a quote these days... yeah, house guys do it because they abuse coke then, no? and pop maybe a cocktail of LA chicks and more coke and weed? what do you like best I wonder?

303 is a classic, those xoxboxes sell very very well. it's used even on Berlin school kind of music, there's even euro rack modules that can give you that filter, that exact kind of sequencer with the accent and all of that, so it's not nearly gone, no, it's just changing colours, getting mixed with other unpredictable contexts, just like the original. and do yourself a favour and turn one on and give it a try connected to some cool sound system one day and let me know about it! that sound is that sound, no wonder it's made it big when even the developers thought it was just some toy, it was the sound, not the looks, or the interface, all based on the sound. same thing with the TR drum sounds, many people will stop scanning a pack of samples when they get near a 909 kind of snare "yeah, this one", just because it's cultural, you've based your taste on many genres around this kind of sounds.

what's boring is Roland's take on their own legacy, but don't piss on the legacy itself, let alone with some generalizations, kind of offensive really, about psytrance and associating it with drugs or brain damage. your taste is your taste, just don't think it's science and it will all be fine, ok?

[MBTC]

what's boring is Roland's take on their own legacy, but don't piss on the legacy itself, let alone with some generalizations, kind of offensive really, about psytrance and associating it with drugs or brain damage. your taste is your taste, just don't think it's science and it will all be fine, ok?

I'm still pissed at Roland for using the name Jupiter on the Jupiter-80. Desecration of their own brand. They should have just continued with Fantom or some new name or whatever instead of muddying the waters and making real Jupiters indistinguishable from ROMpler garbage in conversation.

[Berni]

So I couldn't resist downloading the Rebirth app for my iPad today. It's a holiday here in the states (presidents day) & I had nothing better to do but lay in my back garden & drink beer (yeah it's tough living in south florida this time of year) I cranked up my wireless speaker & proceeded to annoy the shit out of my neighbors for several hours with some 303, 808, 909 action. Oh what fun...forgot how cool this program is.
So for around $2000 + you can get an original 303 on ebay in reasonable condition, although they all seem to be from japan so there authenticity is questionable.
For $3-700 you can get a re-model box.
For around $70 you can get a VST plug in or for $15 you can get this iPad app that has 2 303's & an 808 & a 909 plus sequencer & FX.
Here's some snippets of the demo songs I recorded straight off the iPad with Ozone 5 preset on the master bus to give it a boost if anyone is interested...

http://soundcloud.com/dj-berni-2/rebirth-for-ipad-demos

@Tweak...calm down you hippy, I was in Goa in India at the start of trance so PLEASE don't tell me about the 303 or PSYCHEDELIC TRANCE for that matter, the name of the genre is a bit of a dead giveaway even if I didn't know any better, which I do. :p

[TweakHead]

everything calm down here, captain!

playing loud music to annoy neighbors is something we hippies respect! :twisted:

no problem, feel free to tell stories of those times. you have my ears and interest eheh

will take a listen to the tune

[TweakHead]

that's very cool! like the middle part a lot! could be made into a full song! Roland genre XD music from back when they were good! the last part, the intro feels like Prodigy music kind of vibe, real nice to

[Berni]

that's very cool! like the middle part a lot! could be made into a full song! Roland genre XD music from back when they were good! the last part, the intro feels like Prodigy music kind of vibe, real nice to

Yeah like my post say's these are just samples of some of the demo tracks. What I was trying to get at was could any of the purist's out there (if they exist) could tell if this was something made with a $15 iPad app or several hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars worth of hardware & also after hearing it would you still want to fork out $500 for the new TR-8 which does not include the 303 re-model TB-3 which will cost you an additional $300?
If I broke down the seperate instruments from rebirth into seperate channels in my DAW & give them some nice eq, reverb, delay, compression etc. I reckon I could get them sounding close enough to the REAL thing that hardly anyone (including the 'purists') would know the difference.
Also with this app you can use modified versions of the drum machines giving you even more possibilities. Should have posted a link in the last post...

http://www.rebirthapp.com/rebirth-for-ipad/

[TweakHead]

Yeah, I think many people that get the XOXBOX are also running hardware setups where the sequencer might come handy, since it comes with both CV and Midi these days, even the Virus might be fun to control with such a sequencer.

I think you could and probably would get away with that test. Only thing to add to what you're saying would probably be some emulations of distortion, maybe even stomp boxes for guitars with some automation going. With a good crafted mix, people would certainly be unable to tell the difference I think. I like the D16 group's plug-ins a lot, made some retro style music once, will check if I still have it on some hard drive - probably do; but I've mixed those a bit, like you're saying. It's a cool exercise to just accept the limitations of those units of the past and play with them like you did here, one can easily forget how narrowing the options down a bit can enhance one's creativity. I think part of the success of these devices was that, you really had to play with what you got.

Also, the virus can sound incredibly close to the TB and with some processing on tops, I highly doubt that anyone would tell to, granted you'd need to sequence the notes in a teebee kind of fashion and enable velocity to filter cuttoff for the accent, and that sort of thing. I mean, even back in the day, many acid sounds would come from the SH 101, or original Bass Station, don't think any of those guys got beer thrown at them for not using the real toy...

That tendency is sort of coming back, mostly (I think, not really sure) here in Europe with the Euro Rack thing, see some guys going after sequencers and that way of composing, where you're left with just tweaking away while recording after the phrases are in place, sort like Berlin School music, only with an edgier touch. while many people are more then happy producing in the box, and I think those end up making more music then the others, to who gear slutz is more then just a forum, it's kind of an identity XD

and everyone should really think about this all, I mean, software is a very nice thing that's unleashed a lot of creativity worldwide and even access to the classic sounds of most genres with enough quality that no one would actually tell the difference, and even if they did, who cares anyway? if some guy can say that's not the 303 filter? that's just some nuance, a fairly small one imo...

[TweakHead]

Yesterday the SH 101 plug-in for the System 1 (Roland's AIRA series) has been released. I watched a bit of the presentation online, there was an interesting part with some veterans going over old stories and their favourite classic equipment - obviously focusing on Roland stuff, but not only.

Well, the advantages for such a platform are as follows:

1. Software you can use without the hardware.
2. Hardware control of the software.
3. Software automation (recording and editing) from that control.
4. Preset storage and management in software.
5. The ability to swap models on the keyboard itself, effectively turning the same hardware into different instruments.

Number 1 is where this product seems a lot different to the likes of the Virus ti. To most people this would mean that the sound is generated within the computer, and that the hardware is but a controller for it. But the hardware actually allows you to load one of this synths (currently just the system one default and now SH 101, both fairly simple architectures) and take it anywhere and use that as you would any hardware instrument.

Reason I'm mentioning this is that I was under the impression that Software and DSP based instruments are two different things when it comes to coding.

I remember one thread where I debated the idea of something within these lines with MBTC, some time ago. Main idea was that you could have some hardware instrument that could load other instruments into it, sort like the Nord Modular did.

I think they have a somewhat similar approach with this, even though it's a closed platform and one that seems fairly limited from the get go. I would lie if I say I don't like the concept though, and would like it even more if the hardware had a better interface that would allow the use of more complex instruments, something like the Nord or Reaktor or Sonic Core, with ready made blocks and modules for user assembly would also complement such an idea very well. I wonder what Native Instruments would come up with if they took this path, or Access Music...

[MBTC]

To me the premise behind plug-out sounds neat, but really I don't see a huge difference in what it fundamentally different than what the Miko/Neko stuff did from Open Labs. And, unfortunately here's how that worked out for them:

http://us.openlabs.com/2013/index.php/products/legacy-hardware

What will matter more about this System 1 synth, I think to many people, will be how it works when truly integrated with the DAW in the same way the Virus TI or UltraNova integrate -- for example audio over USB with low latency, using the DAW plug-in to instantly visualize changes made on the hardware when the synth engine is running fully on the hardware, etc.

Granted, even if they take a piss and say "well if you're having latency issues you need to run the synth engine on your host computer and just use the keys and knobs as a controller", there could still be a very big benefit here that other vendors have not yet tapped. That would mean that you could potentially use the plug-in in your DAW during the initial stages of your workflow using the PC's CPU just to speed workflow along, then when the track gets busier and you need more processing power you could potentially off-load the processing to the synth, feeding it into the sound card via audio in.

However, for that to begin to excite me at all, I'd need to hear some really impressive sound demos from this little green light box, which I haven't heard yet.

I also don't like buying anything based on a promise of how good it's going to be some day in the future. The SH 101 module is not yet released so nobody can review it, I haven't heard how much Roland plans to charge for each module, there's no guarantee the module will be authentic, and nobody knows which modules will really be available. Like most things, if there isn't a strong revenue stream tied to the modules, Roland is not going to spend a lot of money doing the hard part (making the software synth sound top notch).

So I think it will be another 2-3 years before I can really look at the System 1 and say whether or not it's something I'm remotely interested in.

[TweakHead]

I didn't mean this product looks interesting to me. The concept is good fuel for thought though :)

I agree that the value of it is highly dependant on promises and, even, that Roland has a bad history of failing to deliver. They did it with VariOS and the V-synth, and they will presumably do so with this one, but only time will tell. This is a point where Access Music does deliver more then usual. Most companies fail to add those extra features even when they're advertised on their release, many are haunted with bugs for life because there's no incentive going back to older products and perfecting them, but on placing new ones to get new money from new costumers.

What I like is this capacity to "off load the processing to the synth" while still retaining sample accurate timing. On another note, for anyone with analogue synths, Expert Sleepers is worth a look, since it enables you to use any instrument with CV inputs with sample accurate timing (I kid you not), plus a bunch of other stuff - check ES-4 ;)

I don't think you'll need 2 or 3 years to really appreciate System 1. The physical interface isn't exactly vast, and I highly doubt you'll ever see an instrument with more then two oscillators coming out for it. The Nord Modular had a similar principle: you could load different instruments on the hardware, but then they were presets, not a firmware reset (like plug-out apparently does) and you could build your own instruments combining ready made modules - so that's my definition of versatility. Under the premise that this new digital technology can reproduce the old one to the point it's indistinguishable, we're presented with fairly simple stuff with borrowed hype from the old classics.

Despite all this, I have to admit it does sound good to my ears but could never ever justify getting one. It's still VA even if you give it another name, and it's way beyond the competition in terms of features. You've seen simple analogue synths, you've seen feature rich VAs like the Virus and Nords, now there's more of both, but here comes Roland with a digital synth that's as simple in architecture as simple mono synths from the past... At least they should give you all of them in one package: all the junos, jp, etc.

[MBTC]

At least they should give you all of them in one package: all the junos, jp, etc.

If I thought they would come out with an authentic sounding Jupiter or JP-8080 plug for it, then I might be all on board. But they don't even do real Jupiters with their Jupiters these days.

[TweakHead]

Yeah, more like Sega Saturn kind of Jupiters XD