Adding compressor to mixer...

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by jasedee

You look at a really high end, beautiful sounding console, and the "Silly" resistors they use cost about 10 or 20 times more than the ones you would find in a Behringer/Mackie mixer. And as far as op-amps goes (chips), these things are the most horrible sounding shit you could ever hope to run a signal through. You think about all the analogue "warmth" Vs. Digital "coldness" arguments and most of the time the analogue gear they are talking about DONT use chips/op-amps, they are running through transformers and high quality capacitors/resistors etc....or tubes!

You know, you can use the high quality components with opamps too. And of course crappy opamps sounds crappy, but keep in mind that an opamp is the saviour of analogue electronics. An opamp is a very good component because it has very neutral frequency respones, really low noise and huge output impedance. In addition to that it's bloody simple to use because most of the components are inside the IC so the use of "noisy" external components is in minimum and it's ridicilously cheap die the IC structure. Even an opamp is an IC, it's still has the analog sound. There's always place for opamps and the "vintage" bulk components. They excell eachother in various areas. The strenght of an opamp is the value/quality rate. Choosing between vintage components and opamps is like choosing between a Rolls Royce for a million or a BMW for a 20 euros.

You can pay $100 for a behringer parametric EQ, full of op-amps.....and then, you could pay $10,000 for a Manley MASSIVE PASSIVE, full of beautiful circuitry made up of transformers and other high quality parts (NOT op-amps/chips) and these things are like the best sounding bit of gear you will ever come across.....you dont even need to actually use the EQ, just run your signal through it and it comes out the other end sounding "Better".......

The one reason why to use opamps is the price (although it's quite trivial to compare crappy Behringer products to highend hifi gear, ?hih). Of course the sound is lovely vintage on the "traditional" circuit but the price difference is huge! Opamps allowed a production of nice analog gear with really low price. For example Korg MS-series sound very nice, even they are constructed from "the most horrible sounding shit you could ever hope to run a signal through". I start to smell analog purism here. Tshihihi.

The parts inside your mixer 100% determines the sound quality that comes out the other end. This is why shit desks sound shit, and Neve desks sound fuckin awesome!

That's naturally true. Cheap isn't good. But even Neve sounds incredible, it doesn't mean Soundcrafts and Mackies would be shit.

Also, think about in Live sound, where the engineers will often use the VCA groups for sending the drum channels, because they dont want to pass their signals through another set of fader circuitry, as it will degrade the signal more so than a VCA circuitry would.....This is a normal procedure in Live sound, and one which translates into the studio world as well. Engineers will often try to record using the purest signal path, the one that doesnt pass through a whole bunch of extra circuitry, the simplest route. On it's own it may not make a lot of difference, but collectively.....?????

It really depends on the gear used. Of course on paper the difference exists. If you use a noisy and distorting mixer then you'll end up having a bad sound when you run the signal through channels multiple times. But if you have a good mixer then avoiding faders at all cost might be a bit paranoid.

That live thing you mentioned is making me wonder... I'd understand that on a studio, but why they do that on a live setup? Usually the live situation is not even near hifi which means you really can't tell the difference between a single fader signal or 32 fader signal because the listening situation has loads of background noise from the fellow audience, noise from the guitar/bass amps & PA's and high power PA's are not-very-high-fidelity (they just concentrate on being loud).

Gosh I wish I had more knowledge of electronics......

Why don't you study? Electronics is simple. It's not harder than basic physics.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by Hollowcell

This has turned into one of the more interesting threads for sure.

Indeed.

I really am looking forward to what some Techs say about this. Please let us know when you find out Jase.

Anyway, with my little setup I still have to use the Aux sends pre-fader for some things, but knowing in more detail about it will be nice.

Yes. Let's see what's the truth out there.

[jasedee]

Originally Posted by Juho L

That live thing you mentioned is making me wonder... I'd understand that on a studio, but why they do that on a live setup? Usually the live situation is not even near hifi which means you really can't tell the difference between a single fader signal or 32 fader signal because the listening situation has loads of background noise from the fellow audience, noise from the guitar/bass amps & PA's and high power PA's are not-very-high-fidelity (they just concentrate on being loud).

You make a good point....We were learning some general info about Live Sound recently, and on some of the better Live consoles, you have the option to send the fader to one of a number of VCA masters, instead of using the normal subgroups. The reasoning is that there will be less signal degradation using VCA faders, and the signal does not have to pass through additional subgroup circuitry, and I guess the last thing you want in a live situation is for you signal to start to turn to shit, cos as they say

"If you sound like shit, you will sound like amplified shit through the PA"

I thought that was a nice saying.........

I guess I am being influenced by a particular someone, who you could say is a bit of an audio "Snob"........great guy but he sure does like his audio hi-end and expensive! I guess when you have had the luxury of using the best, the other stuff doesnt sound so great. And I am not yet at that point, so I guess I shouldnt have such an attitiude about Project studio gear etc. I cant complain about digital, and affordible analogue, cos I am without a studio if I start to get snobby!

Im not afraid to admit I own behringer gear hehehe......

[jasedee]

OK........

I had a brief chat to my lecturer, and the answer is kind of a combination of what we have both been saying.

He started off by asking me why on earth I would use a compressor through an aux send, but I assured him that all I wanted to know, was the differences on how the two different busses work, regardless of the obvious reason why you would use one in preference to another....

Basically he said, an insert send is not really a send, it is like an output, or a break in the signal path, with a corresponding input before the EQ.

An aux send takes a split of the signal, without breaking the signal path, and depending on the aux master, the aux send could be sending even more than 100% of the original signal.

He also went on to say that if you were using a compressor via an aux send, returning it to a channel would be a better option so you had the choice of EQ'ing the return. Ultimately, you can use the aux send to feed a compressor, but for obvious reasons it is not the standard practice.

I didnt get any technical response, as we were in a lecture, and we try to keep focused on the current subject, but the answer seemed to be yes, you CAN use the aux send to feed a compressor, but you SHOULD be using the insert points.

Apologies to all I doubted! I dont mind admitting I was wrong

Still searching for the technical explanations......One I can think of is that the send is mixed with all of the other sends too, and then through the aux master, as well as back through another amplifier, and EQ etc....so all the while adding noise/distortions of the original sound etc..

But we've been through all that already.....

[Juho L]

Yup. So it seems that everybody was righ a little bit.

[Hollowcell]

That's great that this chapter of my life can be layed to rest. One day I'll have enough cash to grab a nice desk with heaps of sub-outs, sends and inserts, but until that day I'll have to go for the pre-fader option.

Thanks heaps for finding out Jase.

[jasedee]

Originally Posted by Hollowcell

That's great that this chapter of my life can be layed to rest.

such a drama queen!

I guess I learned that just because a method is traditional, it is not necessarily the ONLY way, and there are always options!

Cheers!

Jase

[Hollowcell]

Originally Posted by jasedee

such a drama queen!

Hehehe, you like that one did ya?

This was a splinter in mind, that honestly if not removed could have (probably would have) caused major mental traumer!

Much like the Normalizing thread that was never resolved. Everytime I get taken to the police station for punching my neighbour in the face I say "The Normalizing thread was the cause of this violence". Then I give them the link to that thread and they let me go.

Dramatic enough for you Jase?

[AjmaGard]

Originally Posted by Hollowcell

Much like the Normalizing thread that was never resolved. Everytime I get taken to the police station for punching my neighbour in the face I say "The Normalizing thread was the cause of this violence". Then I give them the link to that thread and they let me go.

Dramatic enough for you Jase?

Please post a link to this thread

And thanks for all the replies, all I ever wanted was to find out how to connect my compressor, and I found out of this: AUX: Sometimes BAD, Inserts: GOOD

[jasedee]

Originally Posted by Hollowcell

Much like the Normalizing thread that was never resolved.

Was that a thread I was involved in????? Oh yeah....it is coming back to me now!

We should pick that one up again.......Ummm....but I cant rely on the infinite wisdom of my lecturer anymore. He is off on a spiritual journey. He is following the Buddha trail and recording the harmonic chanting monks of tibet (etc) with a $20,000 portable rig......how cool is that?

So yeah, Normalizing huh? Well, maybe best to let sleeping dogs rest?