One synth to rule them all?

[TweakHead]

Yes, I tend to agree with all that you've said here. But among all the sub genres of trance, there's more things in common then differences. The structure and basic grooves are more a less the same. And the effect it has on listeners is similar as well. There's also very emotional and melodic psychedelic trance out there. Actually, there's tons of sub genres which is kind of natural since this all started in the early 90s and it's still developing these days. There's room for a lot of different variations, but "building up for a release" is something that's shared across most electronic music in general - and even some pop tunes, that's recurring more and more to EDM vocabulary.

But yes, you'll rarely find a supersaw lead on psychedelic trance, whereas on other genres of trance there's a lot of that going on, and more warm pads and stuff like that. The squelchy, acid sounds is more a characteristic of psychedelic music - and playing with generously applied effects is also a big factor. That is one of the reasons a synthesizer like the Virus which integrates the fx section so well - having its parameters available as destinations - is very popular for these genres.

Probably for anthem trance, people lust after the Roland sound, like the Juno JP8080, right? Not that I wouldn't love to have one. BTW, see them going for fairly reasonable prices in my country in mint condition. Has anyone here tried one? I think that's a very nice machine with the unmistakable Roland sound - and the original supersaw waves of course.

Also, don't know how the hypersaw on the Virus can live up to replace that, since I have the C. There's tons of plug-ins that can do it fairly well nowadays. Lush 101 is one of the best, Zeta +1 is another, but there's plenty more, like Zebra can make that kind of Lead very well, no?

[MBTC]

The JP-8000/JP-8080 (actually was technically not a Juno or Jupiter) has a lot of historical importance to trance, and considered a predecessor to the VA synths that came after it like Virus, SuperNova, etc. Maybe in some ways it was the synth that made trance possible? But yes they can be picked up pretty inexpensively -- I think Roland made a lot of them. I know Prodigy used to use these (they aren't technically a psytrance band but they always used a lot of resonant/distorted filter-esque sounds, so maybe it speaks to the versatility of the JP-8xxx somewhat).

I've toyed with the idea of picking one up, mostly for nostalgia sake, but most of the people I know that own the hardware boards have made the move to soft synths due to getting same (or better) results in an easier to work with form. You can certainly find them at a good deal though!

Do you feel the hypersaw on the Virus C is not capable of living up to the supersaw available in soft synths or the Ti2? I'm interested in this because maybe you saw another post where I was hoping to find a polyphony/voice count comparison of a Snow versus a C with the same patch.

But yes, Zebra is quite capable of this kind of sound. Another one that might surprise you, that I think you already own is FM8. Nobody thinks of FM synthesis when they think of the supersaw sound, but it is definitely capable, it just achieves the sound a slightly different way. If you dig through some of the trancelead patches on FM8 I think you'll see what I mean. Warmth isn't really the best characteristic of FM synthesis, but you can always layer it with the timbres of another synth if needed.

I think the supersaw is an interesting sound, mostly because it is such a processing-heavy type of sound, one that older analog gear wasn't really capable of, so in a way it is kind of iconic of the mid-late 90s, a time period which I see as kind of a "comeback period" for synths. For a time during the 90s, it seemed like everyone in popular music was going unplugged/acoustic and synthesizers were getting neglected. A handful of bands like Depeche Mode and Nine Inch Nails were keeping them relevant throughout that period, at least here in the USA, with the exception of course of dance club music. Then VA gear came onto the scene and brought a new sound to the table, and the supersaw was one of the iconic elements of that sound.

Really though, I think the basic supersaw sound is kind of boring by itself... just lots of detuned oscillators. It's things like the envelopes/LFOs and how it's used in the music that matters.

From a pure synth perspective, it's kind of an important type of sound I think, because a synth that has the power to do a nice supersaw typically has the power to do almost any other kind of sound. Yet there are synths that do every other kind of sound, but just don't have the raw power to do a proper supersaw.

[TweakHead]

Well, the Virus C can only approach this. As the oscillators themselves aren't capable of producing a raw supersaw wave. But you can get near that sound for sure. The hypersaw oscillator is only available on ti, ti2 and snow - and I was asking this because I think it was access's way of bringing this sound into the virus. I think with a couple of sawtooth waves detuned apart and making good use of the unison one gets close enough, maybe a touch of EQ as well, to bring the highs up a bit - maybe then a touch of chorus and reverb. But think the ti range of virus is much more capable of doing this, since it can pack a couple of waves together at oscillator level like the real deal - just don't know how close it is to the Rolands.

FM can surely sound similar to this sound. One oscillator modulated by a fast one will get some very juicy harmonics and the fast movement - which is similar to the supersaw. One must find the sweet spots though - one of the things I really like about Virus's FM btw. And you're right, also use FM8 a lot - actually couldn't live without it tbh. I'm a big fan of FM. Lately I've been crazy about analogue kind of FM to, sounds different but it's so cool there's days I'd kill for it. One of the interesting ways to go there would be the euro rack - so much stuff one can do with that.

Also heard that a decent analogue with FM capabilities going through the mooger fooger ring modulator produces the kind of eargasm that you easily forget the money you spent for it eheh.

Oh, and our beloved Monark can to a very good emulation of analogue FM. Also, have you guys heard about Aalto synth?

http://www.madronalabs.com/products/aalto

some sounds you get out of this, you can't find in anything software so far. it's kind like the buchla sound, very very cool

[Berni]

Originally Posted by MBTC

IMO there are two main elements that distinguish good trance from bad: good melodies and good mix quality. Sadly those are the two things that only a few seem to really know how to do well. The drums are relatively simple so it's too easy to throw in a drum loop and some bassline that's been heard a gazillion times elsewhere, and out pops a generic turd with nothing special about it.

If you don't like AvB though, in general I doubt you'd like anything I've ever created. He, Markus Shultz, Paul Van Dyk,etc. are some of the best around in their genre. Thing is that appreciation of a genre varies, so if you don't like it then you don't. I'm the same way about 99% of R&B, and although I like some dubstep, watching every 12 year old out there who saw a youtube vid on how to create a wobble doesn't take long to get old.

The trance I like to listen to takes melody and crafts it into emotion, and combines that with a really clean mix. It's getting harder to come by these days as the EDM crowd is a fickle floozy that likes to chase after the newest thing, so less people are creating good stuff.

I was a fan of PVD, Ferry Corsten etc. back in the day but not so much now, there sound doesn't seem to have progressed much. Unlike guys like Sasha who where big trance DJ's back then but now seem to be more into the progressive side of House (still hammering his remix of Hot Chip's 'Flutes' every saturday night) The same thing is happening with dubstep like you say, when it first emerged it was a cool & interesting new sound but now everyone & his dog are making it with the same cookie cutter attitude it has got boring as hell really fast. You can hear my first & only attempt at it on my Soundcloud, the track is called 'I think were dead'

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by Berni

I was a fan of PVD, Ferry Corsten etc. back in the day but not so much now, there sound doesn't seem to have progressed much. Unlike guys like Sasha who where big trance DJ's back then but now seem to be more into the progressive side of House (still hammering his remix of Hot Chip's 'Flutes' every saturday night) The same thing is happening with dubstep like you say, when it first emerged it was a cool & interesting new sound but now everyone & his dog are making it with the same cookie cutter attitude it has got boring as hell really fast. You can hear my first & only attempt at it on my Soundcloud, the track is called 'I think were dead'

I dunno, I think all genres have their good and bad. PvD and AvB have done things that are pretty well outside the trance genre too. This one by PvD came to mind, more of a pop/rock type of tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO0PMclabt4

[Timo]

If you have an iPad and are after a really great JP supersaw sound, check out BeepStreet Sunrizer. Gives you a JP80x0 effectively for £7.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/sunr...443663267?mt=8

Fantastic supersaws on that lil' app, and a whole more besides. Loads of usable sounds, has a nicely refined polished sound to it. The morph wheel is really great too.

[Berni]

Originally Posted by MBTC

I dunno, I think all genres have their good and bad. PvD and AvB have done things that are pretty well outside the trance genre too. This one by PvD came to mind, more of a pop/rock type of tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO0PMclabt4

Still sounds like a commercial trancey sound to me & when I first heard this kind of thing on the radio it was the end of my love affair with trance. Once it got out of the underground scene & into the mainstream I lost all interest.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by Berni

Still sounds like a commercial trancey sound to me & when I first heard this kind of thing on the radio it was the end of my love affair with trance. Once it got out of the underground scene & into the mainstream I lost all interest.

It is definitely more mainstream pop, but I think that song drifts far from trance by definition. Anyway, your situation may be different because correct me if I'm wrong but you listen to EDM every night and probably preparing mixes for work and stuff during the day? I would think that's going to completely change your burnout rate for different EDM genres. I have such varied taste in music that I only occasionally listen to trance. Plus, other factors need to be in place for it to work. I don't really like listening to EDM early in the morning getting work done or whatever. It's more for night time listening with some brewskis

[TweakHead]

But there's always underground and mainstream. It's just that some producers get tired of being "in the shadows", putting to much work into their music for a small niche of people who appreciate it and probably download the music from the web for free. The way I see it, it's just some musicians that get seduced by the lights of fame, success, the chance to make real money from their work. There's some very bad examples of that. I think there's a band with a name similar to this forum that rings a bell.

But while there's a whole pack of artists in psytrance that started good and then turned to more cheesy commercial music, there's still a very diversified underground scene and music going. What we sometimes feel is that it has changed and we can never get that element of surprise back. But that's mostly us that have changed. It used to be new for us, now it isn't. But there's always new people coming in and their amazement is very similar to what we've felt back then. It's only different.

And while we can go on talking about the specifics of a given genre, I feel trance is like a state of mind that can be achieved through music and sharing the experience with other people. That's just as good a possibility as it was when it all started, the rest of it is just trends, labels, organizers and their greed levels - sometimes it goes of the charts, sometimes you find good stuff. Take a look at this events, for example: boom festival and ozora festival. The atmosphere in there is just amazing. Just an example.

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by Timo

If you have an iPad and are after a really great JP supersaw sound, check out BeepStreet Sunrizer. Gives you a JP80x0 effectively for £7.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/sunr...443663267?mt=8

Fantastic supersaws on that lil' app, and a whole more besides. Loads of usable sounds, has a nicely refined polished sound to it. The morph wheel is really great too.

don't have the ipad, but saw a video on youtube and it surely does sound good!!