(Not) another virus vs. VST thread

[Barnelby]

Hey guys,
So all over the web are debates and beyond about the virus vs plugins like sylenth, massive, kore2, the list goes on. I happened upon this thread:

http://www.access-music.de/forum/ind...=1068&pageNo=1

In which an amateur synth enthusiast posted a simple question regarding the virus and soft synths and got some very heated, rude in my opinion, answers that were uncalled for, disappointing, and just plain childish.
So let me, a very enthusiastic but novice synth user, ask this question (and hopefully get civil, adult-quality answers)

I opened up Logic and made two tracks, one with my TI2, one with sylenth. I set both to init and started plinking away on my midi controller and immediately noticed that the oscillators of sylenth SMASH the oscillators of the TI2 (and I AM running the ti2 through the analogue outs, not USB). I read somewhere that simply focusing on the oscillator sound of a synth is missing the "big picture," and that the virus still has the edge on plug ins, which I am completely open to believing, but I think I need a little convincing from some experts being that the first impression of the sounds of the two would lead me to believe that the soft synths are at least as good as the TI2.

One of my personal mottos and beliefs is that tools are tools and the artist is the artists blah blah blah, whatever But the way I see it, if it is possible to get GREAT VA sounds out of some computer programs, perhaps the better investment might be something like a DSI prophet or alesis andromeda to get the REAL analogue sound. (then drop in the U-he effects or something like that to add some flavor)

I don't really have a defined question to ask anyone, but I would like to hear the opinions of those who are very familiar with both the virus and the VSTs. Specifically anything that the virus could do that is out of reach of the VSTs (or vice versa?).

[GV1UK]

It's simply a matter of personal preference.

I have probably on of the most powerful Macs in the world, yet the only AU/VSTi's I own are Massive and Albino. Neither can step close to the Virus ... and I'm not talking about processor speeds or ram.

One of the great aspects about the Virus is the sound. It has a unique sound, something that no other synth or VSTi can replicate. The sound quality is awesome.

Think about it logically. Access are a small company. But, the Virus is one of the most sought after synths in the world and they continue to sell out. The majority of people buying the Virus know why they want it. The buyers are not stupid.

The people that complain, are the people that failed to do the research in the first place. They didn't really need the virus, and now they have wasted their money they go on a ranting spree. I can bet money on it those users have never purchased a piece of software in their life.

Creating a sound on a synth is not just about selecting a waveform, wavetable, and fiddling with the envelopes. If you love synths as much as I do, you spend hours creating that perfect sound. I don't know about anyone else but I want that power at my fingertips. Every aspect of the virus does it's job perfectly.

I'm a fanatic.

Refactor the question to say "Why do you prefer the Virus over VSTi's". At the end of the day it boils down to why you like it and nobody else.

[MBTC]

I had a Ti2 desktop briefly. Dealing with latency, only 3 USB outs, polyphony limitations and such prompted me to send it back (mostly latency). In order to justify the price it would have needed to integrate into my workflow pretty much as a VST would, and I just could not get it to that level of productivity.

I do have Sylenth, Zebra2, and a new inexpensive one called Oresus that I think are capable of competing with the Ti2 in many ways. One of the reasons I wanted the Virus in the first place was really to offload rich hypersaw leads, get them off my CPU, to free up the PC to do other tasks. This is quite a fast PC, Core i7-965 Extreme Edition, but in even the best VST a dense hypersaw with lots of polyphony and reverb can end up eating up 35% or so of total CPU, so I wanted more elbow room.

I did feel that the sounds from the Virus cut through the mix a little better than the average softsynth. I also think most hardware filters respond better in some situations when compared to most VSTs. However I also think that the gap between the two has narrowed a great deal in recent years, and I've heard others say (and I do believe) that by the time the mix is all said and done you will not be able to tell which of the sounds came from hardware vs. software.

So to be honest, yes I think that if I demo individual sounds, Sylenth probably sounds as good as a Virus.. the big benefit for me was having a separate module that takes a huge chunk of the processing requirement of fat hypersaws with long reverb tail off my CPU, but all the latency issues just sent me running back to VSTs and RMA'ing the Virus, until at least I have reason to believe they have fixed their buggy software. Great synth but they need to get total integration working flawlessly in all popular hosts if they want to stay in business, because some VSTs are getting REALLY good.

[GV1UK]

Originally Posted by MBTC

I had a Ti2 desktop briefly. Dealing with latency, only 3 USB outs, polyphony limitations and such prompted me to send it back (mostly latency). In order to justify the price it would have needed to integrate into my workflow pretty much as a VST would, and I just could not get it to that level of productivity.

I do have Sylenth, Zebra2, and a new inexpensive one called Oresus that I think are capable of competing with the Ti2 in many ways. One of the reasons I wanted the Virus in the first place was really to offload rich hypersaw leads, get them off my CPU, to free up the PC to do other tasks. This is quite a fast PC, Core i7-965 Extreme Edition, but in even the best VST a dense hypersaw with lots of polyphony and reverb can end up eating up 35% or so of total CPU, so I wanted more elbow room.

I did feel that the sounds from the Virus cut through the mix a little better than the average softsynth. I also think most hardware filters respond better in some situations when compared to most VSTs. However I also think that the gap between the two has narrowed a great deal in recent years, and I've heard others say (and I do believe) that by the time the mix is all said and done you will not be able to tell which of the sounds came from hardware vs. software.

So to be honest, yes I think that if I demo individual sounds, Sylenth probably sounds as good as a Virus.. the big benefit for me was having a separate module that takes a huge chunk of the processing requirement of fat hypersaws with long reverb tail off my CPU, but all the latency issues just sent me running back to VSTs and RMA'ing the Virus, until at least I have reason to believe they have fixed their buggy software. Great synth but they need to get total integration working flawlessly in all popular hosts if they want to stay in business, because some VSTs are getting REALLY good.

I have a TI desktop, and use it for some very big hypersaws, I also make use of the onboard effects. I've never had any issues, although I am using the latest software update.

[Barnelby]

Thanks guys, exactly the kind of knowledge and wisdom I am looking for! Hope more folks can chime in!

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by GV1UK

I have a TI desktop, and use it for some very big hypersaws, I also make use of the onboard effects. I've never had any issues, although I am using the latest software update.

No latency problems at all? What was your host and operating system? I was using FLStudio on Win7 64bit. Others running different hosts reported no latency problems so mileage definately varies, but if you look through some of the various troubleshooting posts here you'll see there are lots of other folks having various issues, whether its latency, timing synchronization, other other quirky behavior (usually software related). Maybe my luck would have been better if I were using Cubase or maybe 32 bit version of Windows? I did a lot of research as this was something I had wanted for years, so I tried hard to make it work.

[fgimian]

Hey friends, I can also shed some light on this one since I've been a softsynth user since the start, and then bought my TI at the start of last year.

I also own, Massive, Zebra2 and Sylenth1.

I truly think that each have their place. I absolutely adore these 3 softsynths, particularly Massive and Sylenth1 at the moment. They are truly amazing bits of kit. Their oscillators do indeed sound pristine compared to the Virus TI, however, they simply can't sound quite as gritty as the Virus. The Virus TI has a completely different tone to any of my VSTis, it sounds a bit more human, a lot more imperfect, which I just love for certain tasks.

Also, the TI filters are just incredible and the effects have a different character to most.

I have tried time and time again to replicate some of the TI sounds with software synths and can't come even close, and vise versa. Take the TI's "boingy" preset for example, really cool sound that is incredibly hard to replicate on anything other than a Virus. On the other hand, the TI can not do the insane, crazy sounds you can do in Massive for example.

Do you prefer Strawberries or Grapes? Both taste good, just depends on what you are the mood for. There is no better or worse between the Virus and native VSTis for me, they both rock and they both have their place, just like PCs and Macs.

[Barnelby]

But strawberries definitely have better hypersaws.

[HUROLURA]

Just a Virus newbie 2 cents tribute to the discussion (I just bought an old Virus A so I cannot tell anything about the Virus TI2).

First for me when thinking about such topic, is to keep in mind that sound and music are the most important.

Then working/playing flow is also of interest.
Value over lifetime is also important.

My general opinion is computer is at its best for sequencing, sampling and managing sound libraries.
Hardware is for me better solution for synth.
Any attempt to merge the best of both world is interesting for me (virus TI, clavia modular series, ... CreamWare/SonicCore Scope).

But here we should keep the discussion on sound synthesis quality.
There is theoretically no reason why a "hardware" VA should sound better or worse than a VST VA except for the programming talent of their designers.
Only other thing that can enter in line is DAC quality.

My experience so far is limited to hardware VA as I prefer hardware for workflow/lifetime value reasons.

The sound you can get out of different VA synth I own(ed) is obviously different from synth to synth because of their architecture differences.
I once had a Rompler with some synth abilities (digital filter ...) but the sound of VA is far nicer to my ears.
The model I know most are:
- Waldorf MicroWave: this one has its own flavour because of its synth principle (Waldorf WaveTable synthesis is really something special)
- Casio CZ: this one is special also because it is not a VA but the sound you can get out of it reminds the one you can get out of a filter though there is no filter inside. Once again some really special oscillator here.

These first two both have non standard oscillator that offer nice sound sources, combined with other nice tricks regarding enveloppe and modulation matrix to make the sound more living.
I do not know many VSTi offering such oscillator type, with the exception the propellerheads THOR which offer both these special oscillator types.

Clavia modular series is also a special thing in itself for its flexibility.

Regarding over VA I know: Waldorf MicroQ, Chameleon Australis, Novation KS and Access Virus are more similar in term of architecture but still sound quite differents because of details and specific tools they offer.

Now I should come to my favourite sounding VA synth which for me are sounding warmer than the others: the CreamWare/SonicCore gears which provide more warm bass sound. The Minimax, Pro12 and Prodyssey replicant just sound good though their sound design architecture is simpler than the one provided by the Virus/MicroQ for example.
The Minimax is meant to be a DSP clone of the original Minimoog (I do not have any Minimoog so I wouldn't dare to pretend it sounds the same) and provide a really good sounding solution (compared to the Arturia VST I already tried by a friend of mine for example) and the hardware control panel is just a pleasure compared to mouse editing. If we stick to sound only, this one (and the two other also) is also available in Scope PCI DSP boards, Noah and the cheap Plugiator/ASX series with similar quality (actually it is the same plugin powered by similar DSP with different host). Here a special mention about the really nice filter which is way ahead what I have with the other VA gears.
I have the same feeling regarding the Pro12 (inspired by the Prophet 5) which inherits from the more elaborate Prophet architecture (modulation matrix, unison, sync Osc). I also tried the VST form Native Instrument and Arturia without being really convinced (the idea of Arturia of merging Prophet 5 and Prophet VS in one gear is quite nice though). I do not mean they do not sound good, I just prefer the CreamWare sound.
Regarding The Prodyssey (an ARP Odyssey), the particular archtecture of the original Odyssey is great and the nice addition of the Minimax filter alternative is nice to have. Sadly, I never had the chance to compare it neither to an original Odyssey nor to their VST clones.

But I am really interested in what is offered by some more recent VSTi which I feel are offering new possibilities (propellerheads Thor, VA-1, Rob Papen VSTies, NI massive and Absynth ...) and the launch of the Muse Research Receptor and the SMProAudio V-Machines series could rise interest for me as I could have a hardware gear to host them.

I also would like to test the more recent Virus TI/TI2 and the Arturia Origin as I feel these are some of the most interesting of their generation.

[feedingear]

I think its easy to get lost in the hype... a good songwriter and a good producer will make it sound good. For mine, the TI has a definite warm and dark vibe. It blends nicely with the VSTs I prefer to use - Alchemy, NI Massive, and some other NI products (Reaktor/FM8, Kore 2) etc. I have no issues with getting it to work in my sequencer, and bouncing in real time is really not such a big deal. Perhaps a tad tongue in cheek, but if people spent less time posting about how long it took to bounce a track, and just spent it writing their music, then perhaps they would worry less .