Cubase mixdown sounds different

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by grs

I dont believe the is such a thing as real-time exporting. (edit, ok cubase has it but still I wouldn't count on it.)

The Virus TI is not designed for any Render/Export kind of thing. You might be able to press the button on your DAW and get a file but the TI will just give you all sorts of drama. In a fresh install of your Virus TI a dialog appears when you try to off-line Render/Export/Mixdown etc. saying something like "hey buddy! cant do that. sorry".
In cubase the op needs a vst plugin that captures the stream to a file. or set an audio track to record the master buss and capture/record in real-time..

Real-time exporting would put the Virus in the same situation that he is having positive results with now (well, the closest possible situation without the extra safety net of capturing the audio output before hand). In theory, it should not put any greater demand on the DSP of any single instrument than simply allowing the track to play in its entirety. There could still be some hiccups, but at least it might identify the culprit of the voice stealing. Between what Tweak said and what I think you're saying here, I'm getting the impression the Virus doesn't support even this? That would be too bad, I can do it with pretty much any other synth (the only two HW synths I have to date are the Ultranova and Leipzig but it would work with either or both at same time). It should be doable with the Virus by just unplugging the USB and using regular audio outs if not any other way.

[TweakHead]

Actually it's quite simple: the number of voices used or complexity of the patches, or playing many of them simultaneously is something that changes with time in a normal track - so when the system gets busier, there's note steal and that's it.

Recording just one part at a time is the secure method here for making sure it's recorded with maximum quality and all the notes going.

[grs]

The op has to know you can't do a mixdown with the virus in any configuration. You need to record in "realtime" the whole mix thus not needing to record individual parts. There is no non realtime way to capture the virus sounds like other vstis.

[TweakHead]

Again, this is just pretty standard stuff. Virus, as far as recording goes behaves pretty much as any external instrument: you need to record it in real time. It has to play through, while recording.

The only problem I think the Op was having was that at some instances, there was to many things going on and that's originated the "note stealing", due to DSP overload - also a common thing in all DSP based hardware.

Virus allows you to change the priority per part, but ultimately when the time to mix down comes, it's best do record every patch on a multi on its own - specially when there's demanding patches involved or to many of them; so as to assure best performance/quality for each. It's really as simple as that.

As far as outputs go, you can go with either analogue outs connected to a sound card; or the audio stream using the usb connection - in which case he'll have the advantage of sample accurate timing; this last point is where the TI is similar to software instruments.

I'm able to record my Virus (C desktop) using the "freeze" function on Ableton, what it does is it records the parts and then the Virus stops receiving and sending audio, it's just an audio clip; so if that's what you mean with this Cubase function, it should - presumably - work properly.

Offline rendering, as you'd do with software is not supported. Not only with the Virus, but with any hardware synth that I know off. Unlike many people say, I feel the Virus DSP is strong enough for most uses, provided the user is familiar with what it can do and can provide a very smooth workflow - even with the C. The TI range has a major advantage though: you get delay and reverb per part on a multi, whilst before that you'd have those set as global fx - for the whole thing; even when using different outs for the parts on a multi. Thus, knowing this, rendering the parts on their own is a no brainer and I feel the same must still be true for the TI, except it makes life easier for arrangement and previewing the sounds while composing - plus some other tasty features that have been added meanwhile.

Multi implementation is actually very strong with the Virus, compared to many other instruments like the Blofeld for example - which is sort of incomplete btw. Number of voices available is also flying above most anything VA on the market, except maybe the Nord Modular (but that's discontinued anyway).

[MBTC]

Cubase has freeze also but it's a little different than audio export - maybe its the same way in Ableton? Freeze comes in handy more when I have a plugins running in the DAW that are CPU heavy (instruments or fx). The advantage is that if I have something like Dune2 playing a thick strings pad with a lot of notes and fx, that single instrument might take up 15-20% or more of CPU by itself. Freeze gives me a way to bring the CPU down to almost 0% usage with one click (actually a single button press the CH Cubase channel controller since it has its own button). It is essentially just creating invisible audio clip of the track behind the scenes, locking the midi data so it can't be edited, and managing it all invisibly, then giving an easy way to unfreeze individual tracks as needed for editing. It's one of the reasons I prefer soft synths from a workflow perspective, treating of midi data and audio as one, whereas I have to treat them as separate entities with my hardware. Freezing of course doesn't work with external instruments which would need to be recorded in real-time anyway. What I wasn't sure about originally is if the TI had the ability to take midi and render it digitally internally to feed back to the DAW - it makes sense to me that it would not, because while the technology is there to do it (the Virus is could be thought of as just a soft synth running on dedicated hardware), it would complicate the TI aspect and it seems they already have their hands full with that.

But I have to say I don't understand why if the OP is talking of simple note stealing from too much DSP demand, why he is getting such different results with simple playback. It should manifest there too unless there is something creating additional DSP demand during export.

[TweakHead]

The extra struggle while recording (or mixing down) should be the computer's cpu and not the Virus. The extra stress of the internal cpu could mean some added latency in the communication with the Virus, maybe - but all I'm doing here is guessing, really.

[MBTC]

Yeah that's what I mean, it seems like the computers' CPU would take the hit in a mix down, which doesn't explain voices from the Virus missing.

[TweakHead]

It could explain it. In theory there's a lot going on at once: during a real time exporting of a full track there's a huge cpu load; certainly hope this isn't what the OP is doing - 'cause that's just pushing your luck imo. The thing is: if using the usb for audio streaming and the usb connection is also taking care of the TI thing, where Midi in and out is an open route (if you will), then this gets busy. At the same time, if the cpu is struggling to keep the pace - and that's a common thing considering there might be a lot of latency inducing plug-ins (heavy duty dsp processing can be a cpu hog, as I'm sure you know better then I do); to my mind all of these things together can induce cpu spikes, in which case the added latency could originate this kind of thing.

In most common situations (where one isn't pushing his luck), missing voices is just "note steal" due to DSP overload on the synth. It's got it's own mixer, you can solo the parts, you can record one track at a time in solo, making sure both system resources and the Virus is free from unnecessary struggle and performs as expected. This is, or rather should be, common practice and best way to avoid issues - even timing issues with all types of hardware synths, where latency is always a factor to have in mind. Some ms is ok (sometimes a little bit off the grid doesn't hurt), you can compensate it with sample delay function (many times included on the channels themselves, otherwise as plug-ins, few times the host can compensate the latency and align with the midi).

What matters is to get a routine that works and stick to it and focus on the music, really.

[luigi71cx3]

Hello people, I am very happy that my question has ignited a discussion so exhaustive, and I wold to thank each one.

I understood that to make an audio track for each midi track is the best way, so I will do this way. Following an answer from the Access support:

Dear Luigi,
No, the Virus does not operate differently when creating the audio file via the "audio mixdown" function. I monitor the output of Cubase during a realtime export, so I hear if anything goes wrong already during this process. Are you doing the same?
Also does this already go wrong if you do a test and simply solo the TI tracks and then create an audio file out of this? (by "printing an audio file" I literally mean creating an audio file with the audio mixdown function or whatever process a music software provides for this).

As you can see doing an audio track each midi track is also suggested by them.
Probabily the Virus TI2 does not suffer of this issue (maybe it can play the tracks simultaneously during the mixdown without matters).

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by luigi71cx3

As you can see doing an audio track each midi track is also suggested by them. Probabily the Virus TI2 does not suffer of this issue (maybe it can play the tracks simultaneously during the mixdown without matters).

Let us know how it goes. As I mentioned I ended up needing to do this with the Ultranova editor anyway, because otherwise the output just goes to Stereo Out and you have limited mixer options that way (including not being able to control audio/pan of that track independently aside from whatever features the VST plugin provides). I wasn't sure how much has changed between Cubase 6 & 7.5 because supposedly the mixer was a ground-up rewrite in 7.0. It was very different the last time I worked with the TI plug-in, because at that time, I only tried it in FLStudio which treats instruments and mixer tracks as two very separate things which do not necessarily have a 1:1 mapping (or in the case of external hardware, a 1:2 mapping with an instrument track for midi and mix track for audio). That felt a little cumbersome at first to me in Cubase but it really does give you a lot more flexibility once you get used to it.