Buying either Snow or Desktop TI - Noob Questions

[12341234]

My first post here so please be gentle

I have been on the fence with the whole Virus thing for a while now and after trying every VST I could get my hands on, I just cant seem to find anything suitable for what I am looking to do. Mainly pads, plucks, chord progressions etc. in the various House genres (Electro/Prog/Trance etc.) is what I am speaking of. I've yet to find a VST that can do really clean filter sweeps through the whole range... all of em seem to have dirty aliasing, distortion artifacts etc. (Sylenth, Omnisphere, Dune, Diva etc. just dont cut it for me). But with the Virus, from user demos I have heard the exact sounds I am after, so I decided that a Virus is a must for me. Now I need some help deciding which model - Snow or Destop TI? I've already got killer beats, bass and FX covered with VST's and analog hardware synths, so everything else a Virus can do is just a bonus. I should also add that most of my work with the virus will be done inside my DAW (Ableton) -no midi keyboard, so the TI aspect is a must.

My main question is (and I have searched everywhere for weeks trying to find an answer to this) in relation to playing chords... with the Snow using typical House music pad like patches (I hate to use this example, but for ease of description think mau5 like chord pluck sounds), a little delay and verb, some basic cutoff/res/adsr tweaking/automation, how many notes are realistically possible? 3-7 at the same time no problems at all? Or is the Snow with the limited polyphony/4 parts not really capable of this and the Desktop is needed for this type of work?

I would really appreciate it if someone here could describe some realistic scenarios of use, the limitations and what to expect with the Snow.

Cheers!

[Rick Boogie]

Snow is a Virus C? I think. Shouldn't have polyphony issues at all. My B will do big chords easily. I think B has 24 voice poly(?) So a Snow, or C, should have even more. No clue on using a DAW though, I'm strictly hardware.

[12341234]

As far as I know all Virus models prior to TI don't offer the DAW like plug-in editor, rather it would be dedicated audio/midi cable connection and editing within the hardware unit itself like most other hardware synths. While I've heard some fantastic sounding demo's of the older models, the TI/USB plug-in aspect is very appealing to me and the Snow would be the entry level unit -am I wrong?).

On paper the Snow looks like it could do everything and more than what I am asking, but my question is to actual owner/users that are working with it daily and know its limitations to chime in and give me some feedback on realistic usage - specifically chord work and the amount of notes possible as I described in the OP. No one has answered yet, so maybe its too dumb of a question for the pros around here Not trying to waste anyone's time, just need some clear user feedback before I pull the trigger on a Snow.

[grs]

Snow is a half DSP TI. OR TI is a double DSP snow.
If you want thick chords say with unison of at least 3 voices then you will hit the wall with 3 to 4 parts playing chords on TI. I would think a snow would voice out with much less parts.

[12341234]

Originally Posted by grs

Snow is a half DSP TI. OR TI is a double DSP snow.
If you want thick chords say with unison of at least 3 voices then you will hit the wall with 3 to 4 parts playing chords on TI. I would think a snow would voice out with much less parts.

Right, I get the half DSP difference between the Snow and Desktop and the 4 part vs 16 part (or patches) bit... but using one or two (or even four) simple patches with minimal delay/reverb/unison, C/R and ADSR tweaking to create a sound, when it comes to this style of chord and the amount of notes, wondering just how limited the Snow is? I mean I wouldn't be using uber complex patches (at least not the ones I create) with loads and loads of FX drenching the sound.. or trying to layer bass, lead, pads, FX etc. all in one go... I'm after simple, but big clean House style pad chord sounds.

With the Snow I'm kind of expecting that once I'm happy with a sound or part in the mix, if I want to use the Virus for other parts, I'll save the patch and midi and bounce to audio for further mix editing if necessary, freeing up the Virus to focus on something else. I certainly don't expect to do full on songs all inclusive with the snow (or the Desktop for that matter), at least not without bouncing parts to audio all along the way. -does this seem like a normal workflow for the Snow or have I got it all wrong?)...

Unfortunately, there are no shops in my area to test drive units so I'm relying on demos and user advice to make my decision.

[MarPabl]

If you activate 3 oscillators, sub oscillators and a bunch of effects, I think you can easily get 10 notes of polyphony out of the Virus TI Snow.

If you just plan to use a single Program (not 4 Parts) you can have your chords even with the most complex Programs. Even by using the 4 Parts you can get enough polyphony, just making wise usage of the DSP Resources.

Consider the Desktop if you really need to use several ultra complex Programs or you need to use more than 4 Parts on Multi mode.

[12341234]

Originally Posted by MarPabl

If you activate 3 oscillators, sub oscillators and a bunch of effects, I think you can easily get 10 notes of polyphony out of the Virus TI Snow.

If you just plan to use a single Program (not 4 Parts) you can have your chords even with the most complex Programs. Even by using the 4 Parts you can get enough polyphony, just making wise usage of the DSP Resources.

Consider the Desktop if you really need to use several ultra complex Programs or you need to use more than 4 Parts on Multi mode.

Right on, thanks for the info.

I assumed that fairly basic individual basses, leads, FX would be no problem at all with the Snow... just concerned with trying to do big (4-8 note) chord pad/pluck type sounding progressions might cause problems. Seems not. If I'm working on a part by part basis in a song, 4 different parts or patches on the Snow to create one sound seems like more than enough.. I mean how many patches actually use 5-16 different parts in a sound? is that common? Wondering if any Snow users run into problems with soundsets available for Virus?

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by 12341234

Right on, thanks for the info.

I assumed that fairly basic individual basses, leads, FX would be no problem at all with the Snow... just concerned with trying to do big (4-8 note) chord pad/pluck type sounding progressions might cause problems. Seems not. If I'm working on a part by part basis in a song, 4 different parts or patches on the Snow to create one sound seems like more than enough.. I mean how many patches actually use 5-16 different parts in a sound? is that common? Wondering if any Snow users run into problems with soundsets available for Virus?

I wanted to reply to your original question, but I've already written so many of my experiences with the Virus (I had a Ti2 Desktop unit once before but I've returned to all-software for the time being) in various threads on this forum (and when I wrote them, some things were much fresher in my mind), that my best offering is to ask that you take some time to read over what I and others have written about the issues with total integration and USB over the past few years. I say that because the TI aspect and DAW integration seems important to you, as it was to me, and that was the biggest letdown aspect of the Virus to me. Also, it seems like you like pluck/pad type trance sounds, which as you know are resource intensive, and IMO this is not a strong point of even the Ti2 which is twice as powerful as the Snow. I came to the conclusion that the total processing power of the Virus made it seem like my own CPU was about 10 times more powerful. How much other Virus users agree or disagree can really come down to other things like what types of sounds they are using, the music they are producing, how much realtime control they are willing to give up by bouncing down tracks etc.

Personally the difficulty of getting the thing working consistently and dealing with latency in the DAW was not worth it, thus I went back to VSTs. Some of the VSTs I use (Zebra, Synthmaster, Dune etc) actually seem to do plucks and leads better than the Virus to my ears. I think most of the folks that are happy with their Viruses are not very dependent on the TI aspect.. maybe I'm wrong about that.

[12341234]

Originally Posted by MBTC

I wanted to reply to your original question, but I've already written so many of my experiences with the Virus (I had a Ti2 Desktop unit once before but I've returned to all-software for the time being) in various threads on this forum (and when I wrote them, some things were much fresher in my mind), that my best offering is to ask that you take some time to read over what I and others have written about the issues with total integration and USB over the past few years. I say that because the TI aspect and DAW integration seems important to you, as it was to me, and that was the biggest letdown aspect of the Virus to me. Also, it seems like you like pluck/pad type trance sounds, which as you know are resource intensive, and IMO this is not a strong point of even the Ti2 which is twice as powerful as the Snow. I came to the conclusion that the total processing power of the Virus made it seem like my own CPU was about 10 times more powerful. How much other Virus users agree or disagree can really come down to other things like what types of sounds they are using, the music they are producing, how much realtime control they are willing to give up by bouncing down tracks etc.

Personally the difficulty of getting the thing working consistently and dealing with latency in the DAW was not worth it, thus I went back to VSTs. Some of the VSTs I use (Zebra, Synthmaster, Dune etc) actually seem to do plucks and leads better than the Virus to my ears. I think most of the folks that are happy with their Viruses are not very dependent on the TI aspect.. maybe I'm wrong about that.

Thanks for your feedback. I have indeed read many threads here and on other forums, watched every video I can find, all of which seem to be a mixed bag of people either loving or hating the Virus... some say it works flawlessly and the sound is bar none the best, some say its total rubbish with all sorts of glitches and VST's can match the quality etc. Personally, I have never hands on tried a Virus so I do not know for sure. What I have heard in a few pro studio demos are some really fantastic pads and filter morphing (+ just about everything else imaginable)... which is why I am now on the hunt for a Virus. As I said, I own or have tried all of the latest "top" suggested VST's such as the various U-He models (which are quite good for some sounds no doubt), Sylenth (again good for some), Nexus, Korg Legacy, Omnisphere/Trilogy, Arturia, Dune and so on... all are good for some things, but none good for all. - I have not tried Synthmaster though, IYO where does this VST really excel?)

Because for the most part I am happy with my beats, bass and FX, the thing that I now always look for (in hardware and VST) is a filter section that can do really smooth, clean sweeps for this type of pad/pluck sound I'm after... it is the one part of my sound palatte that is lacking. With the VST's I mentioned the result is always some aliasing, distorted artifacts etc. as I said in the OP. And I'm not just talking about presets, I have tried programming each of those extensively. IMO without FX they sound very messy. - if you know of a VST I'm missing or one that you think is in fact capable of these "clean" pad/pluck filter sweeps, please by all means save me some headache and cash and tell me!! I'll certainly give it a go.

The only synth that I have ever been able to hands on achieve this sound I am trying to create is with the Nord Lead 2x, which unfortunately, I had sell when I moved abroad. The reason I have not gone back to Nord is that I found it too limiting in the sounds I could create and the workflow a bit tedious...actually, very tedious. It could do a lot of sounds really good for sure, but it took a lot of programming to get there. To me it was great with some lead sounds and some pad/pluck sounds, FX and that is it. Price vs usage just doesn't justify buying another one. Spending a couple of hours everyday (Nord) trying to create a sound when something else (Virus!?) can dial it in in a matter of minutes and ITB, well, that to me is a better workflow.

The latency, TI, USB issues you spoke of, many say these are things of the past and have been fixed in recent OS updates? BTW I'm running a dedicated PC DAW -XP Pro SP2/Ableton Live 7 (latest update) if that makes any difference.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by 12341234

Thanks for your feedback. I have indeed read many threads here and on other forums, watched every video I can find, all of which seem to be a mixed bag of people either loving or hating the Virus... some say it works flawlessly and the sound is bar none the best, some say its total rubbish with all sorts of glitches and VST's can match the quality etc. Personally, I have never hands on tried a Virus so I do not know for sure. What I have heard in a few pro studio demos are some really fantastic pads and filter morphing (+ just about everything else imaginable)... which is why I am now on the hunt for a Virus. As I said, I own or have tried all of the latest "top" suggested VST's such as the various U-He models (which are quite good for some sounds no doubt), Sylenth (again good for some), Nexus, Korg Legacy, Omnisphere/Trilogy, Arturia, Dune and so on... all are good for some things, but none good for all. - I have not tried Synthmaster though, IYO where does this VST really excel?)

Synthmaster is semi-modular, which means it can cover a really wide spectrum of sounds (similar to Zebra2) at the expense of having a bit more learning involved to fully master it. These types of synths are just more flexible than most of what's available in the hardware world. So, technically they can excel in all areas. What fast-tracked my love for Synthmaster was listening to some of the Rob Lee patches (I think there are four sound banks available from him total), and he really has a grasp on the kinds of sounds I originally wanted out of the Virus. You can listen to demos of some of those patches as soundcloud files from the Synthmaster website.

Originally Posted by 12341234

Because for the most part I am happy with my beats, bass and FX, the thing that I now always look for (in hardware and VST) is a filter section that can do really smooth, clean sweeps for this type of pad/pluck sound I'm after... it is the one part of my sound palatte that is lacking. With the VST's I mentioned the result is always some aliasing, distorted artifacts etc. as I said in the OP. And I'm not just talking about presets, I have tried programming each of those extensively. IMO without FX they sound very messy. - if you know of a VST I'm missing or one that you think is in fact capable of these "clean" pad/pluck filter sweeps, please by all means save me some headache and cash and tell me!! I'll certainly give it a go.

It may come down to what kinds of sounds you want to achieve, but while I do find that FX are a very important part of patch creation (for the types of sounds I want), I found this to be true of the Virus too, and of course sometimes FX are more processor intensive than the sound.

Originally Posted by 12341234

The only synth that I have ever been able to hands on achieve this sound I am trying to create is with the Nord Lead 2x, which unfortunately, I had sell when I moved abroad. The reason I have not gone back to Nord is that I found it too limiting in the sounds I could create and the workflow a bit tedious...actually, very tedious. It could do a lot of sounds really good for sure, but it took a lot of programming to get there. To me it was great with some lead sounds and some pad/pluck sounds, FX and that is it. Price vs usage just doesn't justify buying another one. Spending a couple of hours everyday (Nord) trying to create a sound when something else (Virus!?) can dial it in in a matter of minutes and ITB, well, that to me is a better workflow.

I find all hardware synths have a certain sound profile, limiting their use... their flexibility is often defined by what can be achieved from the surface controls... these controls are like gold for tweaking or live play, but don't really offer the kind of flexibility of some VSTs. I guess most VSTs, individually, probably also have a similar sound profile, the exceptions being ones like Zebra2 / Synthmaster where the possibilities are so varied that the human ear wouldn't be able to pick up the profile or limit, if there even is one.
And yes, price plays a big part in it all. Given unlimited funds, space and time, maybe I'd have lots of hardware boards and not mess with softsynths at all? It's hard to imagine getting the same workflow productivity as an all software environment, just based on my experience with hardware synths.

Originally Posted by 12341234

The latency, TI, USB issues you spoke of, many say these are things of the past and have been fixed in recent OS updates? BTW I'm running a dedicated PC DAW -XP Pro SP2/Ableton Live 7 (latest update) if that makes any difference.

Well I got my Virus right around the time they (Access) introduced a 64bit driver for Windows, and I'm not sure how far things have come since then. I came to the conclusion the lack of the Virus' capability to fully utilize the bandwidth available in USB 2.0 was part of the problem, so I just decided to sit tight and see what their next product line up would consist of (seems like that's ages ago, and no sign of progress). I keep an eye on this board and elsewhere and I have not seen much good said about their software integration or any major improvements being made. I think the consensus is Access makes great sounding hardware but has yet to get their act together on software. I have seen some folks with certain setups say they have very few issues, I just couldn't tell you what their specific set ups are.