Ultranova - Got one! Here are my thoughts..

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by Timo

In terms of sound, how much is the Ultranova like the original Supernova? Can you tell, from hearing them, that they are from the same family (like the Virus A, B, C are to the TI), or are they totally new synth engines? How does it fit in compared against the K-Station series, too, given they have similar feature sets?

Unfortunately it's been a while (long time actually) since I've heard a Supernova, so it's hard for me to compare actual sound. Instinctually I think the characteristics of the Ultranova remind me of the Supernova.
Supposedly the Ultranova's engine is not exactly the same as the Supernova II but architecturally similar and supposedly much more powerful. Some folks claim to notice a more digital sound out of the Ultranova.

Originally Posted by Timo

Reason being, I checked out a few Ultranova audio demos and reviews on youtube and unfortunately I was disappointed with all of them. To me sounds like it has a kinda plasticky, digital, thin, phasey sound to it. I did however like the K-Station demos from a few years ago.

For example on the Sonic State overview...

I think some of the default sounds are kind of thin but with a little experimentation I was able to get things to my liking, although your mileage may vary. When playing a synth like this, I can't help being biased by the overall price, so if I have to tweak a little more to get the sound I want, the price makes that less painful. Whereas if I pay five times the price for a Virus I have very high expectations for even default sounds and if I have to get deep under the hood to make something sound good to my ears it tends to tick me off.

Originally Posted by Timo

... the supersaw at 2:57 onwards on the Ultranova sounds horribly phasey and weak when dialing in the detune and hitting new keys

Well one thing to keep in mind is that around that point in the demo, he has only dialed up a single oscillator and detuned it. To start approaching something that sounds more like a thick supersaw, take what he did, set Unison x 4, then detune unison... But...wait, you still have two more free oscillators to use plus a noise osc. So bring those next two osc in, detune each to maybe +/- 7 and maybe put one on a different octave, etc., then add some reverb, delay etc and you're going to have a much different sound, something like a proper dreamtrance supersaw that way.

Originally Posted by Timo

(more specifically it resets the trig phase of all the multiple detuned saws at note-on each time, so you get a "peeow, peeow" sound every time you press a key as they all start in phase then detune away from each other, rather than starting them as free-running entities to begin with, regardless of detune amount) and I've noticed this undesirable artefact effect is common in other people's Ultranova demos too. My Korg Radias does the same thing and I hate it. Furthermore, there appears to be no compensation for the change in volume that is heard when all the saw waves are being phased triggered at note-on (i.e. when they're all summed, creating a large spike in volume at note-on, then decaying away as the individual saws separate), compared to whether they were all free running phase wise (always a more consistent, average level). Same problem with the Radias, so unfortunately I end up never using the supersaw oscillator type.

I'm not 100% sure if I can properly address this other than to say that in that demo he probably left the OscPhase param set to default which is 0 degrees. If you set it to "free" it removes that quality that I think you're talking about. The range is 0 to 357. It is one of those params that would is somewhat obscure and could be overlooked in many demos. You need to hit the Oscillator button, and use Next to get to the screen. I duplicated what the guy in the video did with one Osc, and set it to free and the initial click disappeared. Hope that helps?

Originally Posted by Timo

You say the Ultranova fairs better at supersaws than the TI|2?

Oh, no I didn't Please read what I wrote again, I was afraid I was giving that impression and opening myself up a can of worms. I was just describing an overall initial impression of a couple of weeks I spent working with the Ti2. For all I know I may not have had something configured properly. It was just a comment about the out of box experience. The Virus started giving up the ghost on polyphony in rediculous places like Roland D50-ish bell sounds, which (again at the price point) left me disappointed.

Originally Posted by Timo

The original TI|1 had 80 voices of poly using the hypersaw, whereas the Ultranova has upto 18 note poly, so not sure how you figured that?

Again I will refer to comment above and previous post, but one thing I noticed about the Ti2 is that it seemed every little thing I did seemed to affect "patch complexity", which was indicated by a small meter on the display. Once you introduce any level of complexity, it started robbing notes out of the patch left and right. I may be sticking my neck out here for the chopping block here, because I do not have specs available, but I honestly feel that the DSP in the Ultranova is roughly on a par, if not faster than that in the Ti2, based on very subjective and non-scientific evaluation that took place several years apart Not sure how to say it any more wishy washy than that... hehe

Originally Posted by Timo

Monotimbrality is a bit disappointing.

Agreed, that could be an issue for some folks, it was considered prior to my purchase and is not an issue for my particular needs.

Originally Posted by Timo

However I really liked the idea of the extended LFO waveforms, some effectively as mini step sequencers. No idea why most synth companies fail to add more musical, creative LFO shapes like these, and instead restrict themselves to just the Sin/Tri/Sq/Saw waveforms (useful though they are, it would be nice to have more creativity and variety).

Yes, one thing about the LFO sequence-type waveforms, I can't see that those are editable. I know most hardware probably wouldn't have them at all, but if you're used to working with softsynths like Zebra where you can literally implement any sort of modulation you could possibly draw with a mouse, the limitations of hardware are stifling to say the least, and I'm still unconvinced there is any real sound benefit to a hardware VA synth vs a good quality softsynth.

Originally Posted by Timo

I do like the touch sensitive knobs, that's a good performance feature for triggering multiple modulations on cue.

Yep, they are awesome.

Originally Posted by Timo

Overall very good for the price, though. The price of Virus in comparison is ridiculous.

Definitely. One reason I got this synth is to sort of dabble with "well integrated" hardware, to stick my foot back in the hardware synth water and decide how much of a financial commitment I want to make toward it. I've been somewhat spoiled with the ultra smooth workflow of softsynths, not having cables everywhere, not having to jump through hoops to get midi clocks sync'ed up and volume levels right and so forth. I think these synths are a phenomenal value. May or may not be for everyone's needs but it is certainly scratching the itch I bought it to scratch.

[trance gate]

Originally Posted by Timo

Reason being, I checked out a few Ultranova audio demos and reviews on youtube and unfortunately I was disappointed with all of them. To me sounds like it has a kinda plasticky, digital, thin, phasey sound to it.

... the supersaw at 2:57 onwards on the Ultranova sounds horribly phasey and weak when dialing in the detune and hitting new keys (more specifically it resets the trig phase of all the multiple detuned saws at note-on each time, so you get a "peeow, peeow" sound every time you press a key as they all start in phase then detune away from each other, rather than starting them as free-running entities to begin with, regardless of detune amount) and I've noticed this undesirable artefact effect is common in other people's Ultranova demos too. My Korg Radias does the same thing and I hate it.

You are completely right Timo.

I have the ultranova and though it's a really nice synth, the supersaw on it sucks and has the peeow peeow thing you noticed. It's a pity.

I am about pushing the button for a King Korg, it would be nice to know if it has the same problem like the radias with the supersaw osc.

I don't notice it in the videos, for example in this one:



but I'll try to ask in korg forums.

cheers!

edit:
Love these supersaws from KK
https://soundcloud.com/korg/demo5-anthem-king

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by trance gate

You are completely right Timo.

I have the ultranova and though it's a really nice synth, the supersaw on it sucks and has the peeow peeow thing you noticed. It's a pity.

I am about pushing the button for a King Korg, it would be nice to know if it has the same problem like the radias with the supersaw osc.

I don't notice it in the videos, for example in this one:



but I'll try to ask in korg forums.

cheers!

Did you read my followup to Timo's question? You can set the oscillator phase to either Free, or a numeric value between 0-180. Set to Free either from the board itself or the VST to get rid of the peeow peeow sound.

I'm curious what you don't like about the supersaw on the UN, maybe I can help there too? If you didn't yet know about the osc phase setting I'm inclined to think you haven't explored it deeply enough yet. You have to on this synth to get the most from it. There are a couple of different ways to achieve supersaws on the UN, one uses up more voices (like the Virus) and one does not. Explore both methods and I think you'll find some good stuff.

Also be sure to get both Supernova soundsets -- they are better than the factory patches. The Daniel Fisher sounds are a nice showcase for its diversity but if it's trance sounds you seek, they are not good starting points.

The biggest shortcoming I find in the Ultranova is simply lack of available soundsets for it. You have to be committed to making your own sounds to get the most out of it.

But about the King Korg -- yes I think it has a nice sound too from what I've heard, been eyeballing that one for a while. Nice price point as well, even if twice the cost of a Ultranova.

[trance gate]

Originally Posted by MBTC

Did you read my followup to Timo's question? You can set the oscillator phase to either Free, or a numeric value between 0-180. Set to Free either from the board itself or the VST to get rid of the peeow peeow sound.

I'm curious what you don't like about the supersaw on the UN, maybe I can help there too? If you didn't yet know about the osc phase setting I'm inclined to think you haven't explored it deeply enough yet. You have to on this synth to get the most from it. There are a couple of different ways to achieve supersaws on the UN, one uses up more voices (like the Virus) and one does not. Explore both methods and I think you'll find some good stuff.

Also be sure to get both Supernova soundsets -- they are better than the factory patches. The Daniel Fisher sounds are a nice showcase for its diversity but if it's trance sounds you seek, they are not good starting points.

The biggest shortcoming I find in the Ultranova is simply lack of available soundsets for it. You have to be committed to making your own sounds to get the most out of it.

But about the King Korg -- yes I think it has a nice sound too from what I've heard, been eyeballing that one for a while. Nice price point as well, even if twice the cost of a Ultranova.

sorry for the late reply!

Well, As I told I really like the ultranova but I've got one of the first sold units. It's full of bugs and problems.
Beginning with the hiss on the headphones output, the unreliable big knob (it fell of the shaft in maybe 3 hours of use) and sometimes the synth just doesn't want to turn on.

The software is pretty buggy, the drift of the oscs sometimes works, the same happens with the delay time.

About the supersaw IMHO, I don't find it bad but I feel it begins to sound really thin as you detune it to a point it sounds like a real supersaw. To avoid it you only have to stack another set of detuned saws an octave appart but it usually makes the sound muddier and full of white noise.

Again, IMHO the virus hypersaw sounds better and the sylenth1 detuned saws too.

Appart of my crappy full of bugs unit the synth is really nice. The mod matrix is really nice to use with a lot of destinations and the touch control is clever.
About presets I can't tell you anything as I never use them in any synth, I prefer creating my own sounds.

If I'd only have 700 euros to spend it would be a fight between this and a blofeld keyboard.

Both of them full of nice sounds and a crappy build quality to reduce costs.

Whatever, after having it for 2.5 years, I've never planned to sell it, it's a nice synth with a nice keybed and a great size.

cheers!

[namnibor]

Well, since I have a Blofeld Keyboard Black Shadow Edition, I can attest to fact it is BUILT LIKE A TANK! The Fatar keys are exact same ones used on Virus KC and DSI Mono Evolver Keyboard, of which I own as well. Understand that I did not buy mine until the O.S. was stable as that's a pet peeve of mine with companies and there's only a few minor bugs yet to be addressed that relate to the arp sync on first note, but that's kind of a Waldorf thing because my Q has the exact same little bug. Fabulously deep and capable synth that compliments the Virus very well because of distinct filters, incredibly deep mod matrix, with my preferring Blofeld's envelopes and LFO's, yep, ALL FOUR each of them with choice of linear, algorithmic, bipolar/looping. The Virus of course excels in all of those too, and if I truly were to gripe about *anything* with Blofeld Keyboard, it would be the effects, which are nowhere near a Virus, and being able to run Blofeld through Virus effects make them so happy together I HOPE they produce an illegitimate LOVE CHILD one night. I think both the Virus KC and Blofeld Keyboard have bit of a craptastic mult-mode unless of course, you just use your DAW, which is work-around for both, have learned.
After all, many of the Waldorf Engineers went to work with Access for the brief time of bankruptcy mess in helping develop the Ti. So they actually share some "synth DNA" as far as brilliant minds.
**Seems more common now that ever for a new product upon release to either be incomplete or very buggy and it's beyond me why these companies actually utilize the SAME Beta-Testers most of the time because seems it's people that think and use/push their instruments 'outside the box' that catch all these 'bugs'.
Rant over...had to say something or my Blofeld would keep threatening my cat!

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by trance gate

sorry for the late reply!

Well, As I told I really like the ultranova but I've got one of the first sold units. It's full of bugs and problems.
Beginning with the hiss on the headphones output, the unreliable big knob (it fell of the shaft in maybe 3 hours of use) and sometimes the synth just doesn't want to turn on.

Thanks for the response. I haven't used the headphone output much or had the other problems you mentioned, could just be early production bugs as you say. Although, the big knob does seem to "lose it's grip on the value" if I move it too fast if that makes sense? Its like the software can't keep up with the synth knob.... I meant to contact Novation to see if that's normal, but it didn't bother me too much because I have so many ways to overcome it (such as mapping a knob from my MK II or my Cubase AI controller to the filter on the VST, which works just like any soft synth).

Originally Posted by trance gate

The software is pretty buggy, the drift of the oscs sometimes works, the same happens with the delay time.

I've had problems with the librarian (specifically loading bulk patches) recently, which is weird because before I had no problems and I haven't applied updates since. The software itself is a little quirky, but I find it to be quite solid for an "integrated hardware solution" (my only other experience for a valid comparison would be with Virus control which was way buggier by comparison).

Originally Posted by trance gate

About the supersaw IMHO, I don't find it bad but I feel it begins to sound really thin as you detune it to a point it sounds like a real supersaw. To avoid it you only have to stack another set of detuned saws an octave appart but it usually makes the sound muddier and full of white noise.

Again, IMHO the virus hypersaw sounds better and the sylenth1 detuned saws too.

I can believe that's true, I just don't have a Virus ATM to compare and contrast. When I first got the Ultranova I did some raw supersaw comparisons with Zebra, which I have gotten some insanely rich supersaws out of in the past, and I found the Ultranova to be roughly comparable. But like all synths, great sounds don't just jump out at you from nowhere, sometimes finding the sweet spot of sound design takes some time. Biggest difference for me is that with something like Zebra, Massive, Sylenth1 etc I have huge libraries of already great sounds when I don't feel like investing the time to start from scratch, while the Ultranova is lacking a little on third party patch availability.

I do admit to kind of a love/hate relationship with the software, because on one hand it is very rich in features but on the other hand you sometimes run into limitations that are just in your way, more so than with a good soft synth. As you said though the combination of mod matrix and the touch controls bring a lot to the table.

Originally Posted by trance gate

Appart of my crappy full of bugs unit the synth is really nice. The mod matrix is really nice to use with a lot of destinations and the touch control is clever.
About presets I can't tell you anything as I never use them in any synth, I prefer creating my own sounds.

If I'd only have 700 euros to spend it would be a fight between this and a blofeld keyboard.

Not sure how pricing is where you are, but in the US I paid the equivalent of 450 euros for this unit brand new direct from Novation! Admittedly, the price contributes greatly to my satisfaction.

Originally Posted by trance gate

Both of them full of nice sounds and a crappy build quality to reduce costs.

Whatever, after having it for 2.5 years, I've never planned to sell it, it's a nice synth with a nice keybed and a great size.

I'd definitely agree the build quality is not in the same league as Virus or any high-end instrument. The keys even feel light and cheap to me, but for certain types of playing I find this to be easier on the hands and good for quick movements. I don't expect to see these selling in "mint condition" on eBay 20 years from now.

[MBTC]

This thread cooled off a little, but I would like to encourage any questions from anybody, because it motivates me to get under the hood and learn specific things faster. The manual for this thing is actually quite good and the synth parameters are surprisingly deep and varied.

A few more observations since my last post while reading about the Ultranova elsewhere:

1. Much of the (legitimate) negative feedback I've heard from folks who have tried this synth relates to lack of multi-timbrality. I can understand why this preludes using it as the only synth in one's arsenal; however, often on multi-timbral synths, using a single complex sound uses so many resources that using additional sounds results in such a polyphony reduction that it defeats the purpose. So, I say at the given price point, someone could always buy 5 of these things, keep two and a half band-members hands busy, and across them play 90 notes of 5 different complex patches and still have spent less than a Virus Ti2 keyboard. That's a silly scenario but it puts the value proposition in perspective.

2. Some of the demos I've seen on youtube have been "low-end limited" by the 37 keys. Typically when I hear a synth being played in a manner that I can be sure it's going to meet my needs, it is done with 2 hands that are 3 to 4 octaves away from each other. Without enough physical keys to do that, I think most of the demos I've seen are playing at higher octaves, thus result in a thinner sound. So there may be a kind artificial drawback there, that leads to a real drawback (see #3)

3. There appears to be very little aftermarket sound packs available for this synth. I can see a few potential reason for that... a sound designer probably wants a larger controller, which can be done but at the expense of being farther away from the knobs that provide the immediate interface and take advantage of the UN like the touch knobs, etc. So, much of the sound design would probably require lots of hands on with the plug-in. I've had pretty good luck with the VST but I've read from guys who did not have as much luck with other forms of the plugin, at least in the early days. I saw a post from Rob Lee, who is a very good sound designer, asking Novation to contact him about writing a sound pack for the Ultranova (I don't know what ever came of it except there is no Rob Lee sound pack for the UN that I know of). Why is this? Novation's handling of things or interaction with the community? I don't know, but there may be a combination of issues that resulted in not much aftermarket sounds being available for this synth. Good news is it is very easy to program yourself, bad news is the presets do not showcase the synth and there's not much available that will. It becomes a very DIY synth, which I think is fun but others may not.

4. The modulation is really good. But things like preset arp patterns are irritatingly limiting to me (to some extent the very editable gator effect could be used for this I think).

5. Price always seems to be listed in the $700+ range. I picked this one up for $600 out the door via Amazon, perhaps because its been out a couple of years (too bad Virus rarely drops in price)... and the Mininova can be had for even less. At those prices we're approaching the cost of the better softsynths but getting much so much more for the money.

For convenience, I rounded up some of the review links I came across, posting for posterity here. The synthtopia one has a good look around the plugin... Interesting quote from keyboard mag "Given what the present UltraNova does with just one part, though, I might go so far as to call it the deepest implementation of the virtual analog paradigm next to Arturia’s Origin—which lists for $3,200. This makes the UltraNova one of the most outstanding synth values you can buy":

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/20...hesizer-review

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/N...UltraNova/4414

http://www.emusician.com/gear/0769/n...-review/140117

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb1...-ultranova.htm

http://www.tonylongmusic.co.uk/keybo...supernova-gaia

http://www.groovypost.com/reviews/no...tranova-review

http://www.junodownload.com/plus/201...tranova-review

http://www.residentadvisor.net/review-view.aspx?id=8544

[namnibor]

Nice selection of varied reviews there! I really wonder why Novation jumped in really no time at all and implimented a mini-me version with indeed twinkle-toe keys rather than offering a 61 key version of the UN?
Wouldn't it be an awesome thing for a company to make such a synth that to expand all you had to do was buy another, then remove an end-cap of each and connect the two for a 74 key, then-biTimberal synth?
I read some things on gearslutz where people actually found the computer integration/editor/vst part of UN to work best actually using the UN as the actual audio interface AND the Automap seemed to be pretty important for that to work well. They also said in that same thread that the UN is really USB-hungry in that when using UN as the interface via USB, it used most of the available bandwidth and to avoid problems, they actually were successful in using an A/C powered USB hub. (I forgot to save that gearslutz.com thread in faves). Read people really liked the action of the keys as well.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by namnibor

Nice selection of varied reviews there! I really wonder why Novation jumped in really no time at all and implimented a mini-me version with indeed twinkle-toe keys rather than offering a 61 key version of the UN?
Wouldn't it be an awesome thing for a company to make such a synth that to expand all you had to do was buy another, then remove an end-cap of each and connect the two for a 74 key, then-biTimberal synth?
I read some things on gearslutz where people actually found the computer integration/editor/vst part of UN to work best actually using the UN as the actual audio interface AND the Automap seemed to be pretty important for that to work well. They also said in that same thread that the UN is really USB-hungry in that when using UN as the interface via USB, it used most of the available bandwidth and to avoid problems, they actually were successful in using an A/C powered USB hub. (I forgot to save that gearslutz.com thread in faves). Read people really liked the action of the keys as well.

About the Mini, I think almost all aspects are the same except lacks built in audio interface and of course is smaller and costs less. There are some aspects of the knobs and buttons I actually like better on the Mini, but I don't do well with small keys so I needed an Ultra.

Currently, I'm not using the interface in the UN, I run the audio to the Saffire Pro 24 (which is firewire) and a MIDI cable, but the UN is plugged into USB because the plugin needs it. That's one reason its not a fair comparison against the Virus with VC, because at that time (my brief stint with a virus) I was trying to do everything over USB, and its hard to tell how many of my problems were a result of that. Only drawback I can find to the current setup is one of MIDI sync, that changing the tempo in the DAW sometimes seems to take and other times I have to hit play to get it to send the new tempo to the UN (could be the software or just the way things are in the hardware world). That's not something I do every 10 seconds though.

I used to use Automap fairly frequenly with my 49 key controller, but over time I found myself using it less because of the load time it added to each plugin. The new PC does not yet have Automap on it so I have not tried that aspect. I haven't even really used the top row of buttons (right under the knobs) because they are apparently all designed for use with Automap. I guess the idea there is that for folks using the UN as their primary controller, it would be silly not to be able to use Automap like every other controller Novation makes so it was a must-have for some. I probably will not use the UN as my primary controller only due to # of keys, but the laptop-producers on the go will probably love that feature of it.

About the key-action, I think it's about what I want in a synth -- light (as opposed to weighted) for fast or percussive playing (as opposed for the piano feel). Some equate light with cheap but I think quality-wise it feels like Novations other controllers (good for what I do) and things like aftertouch feel right to me.

It's one of those synths that does some things well and other things not.

Sounds it does well: Edgy, punchy, gritty, screamy sounds, trance/hardstyle, dub filth etc. plucks, stabs, etc are good! Basses are good! Formant-vocaly sounding stuff is good and you sometimes stumble on extremely interesting stuff just by playing with moduling things like sync, detune. You can also modulate the waveform index (changing the fundamental sound type of the osc), slew the LFOs and other "interesting" things.

Sounds I would NOT use it for: 80's retro, true analog warmth, bread and butter, mega-layered texture sounds. You can achieve layers and textures by getting creative with modulation it but I don't think its the strength.

As some of those reviews said, one thing that's nice is you can make a single osc sound pretty fat then modulate a different osc with a completely different waveform to get a sound that would be like a multi in another synth, yet it seems to almost offer up the same polyphony no matter how complex you make things. Inside a DAW you could also just layer it with a softsynth or whatever to get whatever multi effect you want, but some folks are used to having that right on the board.

[MBTC]

Here is an interesting post I saw on KVR....

The guy who says "I have the Virus TI2 Polar and x2 Ultra Novas.. i bought another Ultra Nova just for more parts as i love the sound. I wish Novation had made the Ultra Nova 4 part or more cause the sound appeals more to me than my Virus. The Virus is a great sound but the Ultra Nova's get more use. I hope Novation considers producing a new Synth with more parts/polyphonic in future." is none other than Rob Lee, who I would say is one of the better sound designers for EDM type sounds out there at the moment (or at least the type of sounds I aim for).

If you're not familiar with his sound sets, you can hear them at this link. I guess if you don't like his sounds, you may not agree with him about the Ultranova sound
http://www.roblee-music.com

Maybe I'll contact him to see why he doesn't make a sound pack for the UN. I read somewhere something about editing large numbers of sounds on it is a bit of a hassle even with the librarian, so maybe that's it. Also I know he was trying to contact Novation about doing one and was having trouble getting in touch with them, so maybe he's built up enough of a reputation that he can hold out for the big bucks ... Given his talent and the lack of sound packs available for this synth, I'd think that would be a killer opportunity for him.

I also found it weird that Adam Van Baker owns a Virus but claims it doesn't get as much actual use in his music as Zebra and Massive. He even wrote a Jupiter 8000 inspired plugin but has never down a soundset for the Virus to my knowledge? Weird.