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  #11  
Old 26.01.2014, 09:09 AM
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I personally dont understand why anyone would want to spend a good chunk of money on a drum machine in this day & age. Even revamping the 808/909 seems totally backward to me. The chinese guy saying "I would use the same cymbal again" says it all. There is so much really good drum software out there & hybrids like the Maschine that they seem so redundant & restrictive to making beats it's retarded.
As for access being a no show @ the show...seriously is anyone genuinely surprised I don't know why they have bothered the last 2 previous years...actually I do, & if you're smart so do you It's called keeping up appearance's.
Well, what one person may find entirely intuitive, another may find counter-so. Plus, there's also the human 'subjective/objective' element and thus, reason options still exist for several things in our tech-dependent lives. One could intelligently make the same argument for say, photography. "Why does this photography group lean more to sticking with 'old school analog film' and all that messy developing chemical process when they could go with an DSLR device?" We are all different. (Thank God)

It's also smart to realize that in this era that we are experiencing of an 'Analog Spring', there's going to be companies that are going to unapologetically 'cash-in' and *claim* analog synthesis can emulate real drums better--regardless of industry already been there--done that. But then there will *always* be the obvious in that nothing ever really *replaces entirely* real drum kits; similar to photography analogy aforementioned.

One would have thought Roland would not have moved in this direction again if it were not a capitalistic advantage 'to them'. Otherwise, Roland surely would have or is yet to re-release their then-cheap TB-303 and gang, to include the 101.

"Keeping up appearances" also has a lot to do with maintaining relevance in an ever-changing human need to explore. It's not entirely a bad thing. The Virus is still considered a massive tool that others are hell-bent to emulate via software. Kind of in the vein of the demand for the PPG sounds, thus the awesome Waldorf Nave iOS App.
(Same Waldorf development team made the iSEM App for Arturia...it was not Arturia's own team that did that.)
Was not exactly 'wowed-out' by this year's NAMM. But again, that's just this silly little human on this blue ball rolling through outer space.
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  #12  
Old 26.01.2014, 09:54 AM
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Well, what one person may find entirely intuitive, another may find counter-so. Plus, there's also the human 'subjective/objective' element and thus, reason options still exist for several things in our tech-dependent lives. One could intelligently make the same argument for say, photography. "Why does this photography group lean more to sticking with 'old school analog film' and all that messy developing chemical process when they could go with an DSLR device? We are all different.

It's also smart to realize that in this era that we are experiencing of an 'Analog Spring', there's going to be companies that are going to unapologetically 'cash-in' and *claim* analog synthesis can emulate real drums better--regardless of industry already been there--done that. But then there will *always* be the obvious in that nothing ever really *replaces entirely* real drum kits; similar to photography analogy aforementioned.

One would have thought Roland would not have moved in this direction again if it were not a capitalistic advantage 'to them'. Otherwise, Roland surely would have or is yet to re-release their then-cheap TB-303 and gang, to include the 101.

"Keeping up appearances" also has a lot to do with maintaining relevance in an ever-changing human need to explore. It's not entirely a bad thing. The Virus is still considered a massive tool that others are hell-bent to emulate via software. Kind of in the vein of the demand for the PPG sounds, thus the awesome Waldorf Nave iOS App.
(Same Waldorf development team made the iSEM App for Arturia...it was not Arturia's own team that did that.)
Was not exactly 'wowed-out' by this year's NAMM. But again, that's just this silly little human on this blue ball rolling through outer space.
I think you need to evolve or die.
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  #13  
Old 26.01.2014, 01:39 PM
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I think you need to evolve or die.
I love sardonic humor but this seems a tad bit harsh!

Evolve this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRbWW...ature=youtu.be
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  #14  
Old 26.01.2014, 03:45 PM
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I love sardonic humor but this seems a tad bit harsh!

Evolve this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRbWW...ature=youtu.be
Lol, yeah thats the kind of vision in my head I have of people who still use drum machine's
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  #15  
Old 26.01.2014, 10:17 PM
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when it comes to drum machines, to this day, there's two takes:

one is the sequencer based drum programming, like the Roland TR series

the other is the MPC kind of way, where you perform with sensitive pads that give you the dynamics and groove of a natural performance - hopefully.

the Maschine is like the natural progression of this two things, coupled with software integration, now that we're living in the DAW age. but, it's still dependant on the very same things. plus, even on NI's factory bank you find a ton of original 808 and 909 samples. Fact is, even most modern music rellies heavily on layering those or synthesized drums in general with accoustic samples for multi-layered, real fat drums.

the coming together of Dave Smith (almost the father of MIDI) and Roger Linn, the man behind the MPC and the inventor of midi swing, quantize, etc; in the form of Tempest doesn't read to me like a step back, but a clear sign that what worked back then still works today, but that's entirely dependant on your workflow and setup of course.

owning Maschine, you know how the physical interface has an impact on how you make your beats, and having a simple and intuitive interface allows you to dive deeper on the drum side of making music. same thing can be said for these machines of the past, some of them being used to this day both on studio or live.
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  #16  
Old 26.01.2014, 11:08 PM
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+1
It seems the brand new, released at NAMM '14, Elektron's 'RTHM' is aimed at direct competition with the DSI Tempest.
However, as I understand it, DSI finally implemented a sort of 'midi out' that's limited to only ONE channel, at the sacrifice of a voice/track. Both devices use samples. Elektron has limited their RTHM to permanently assigned analog drum sound and type per voice/track, and sample import is limited to only what they allow. They claim that these 'limitations' give the edge over Tempest.
I highly doubt Elektron will allow midi out to ONLY to sync with ONLY their other machines...again, Elektron claims limitations on their machines spawn creativity.
That's a crap-tastic way of being able to legally state, "Full MIDI SPEC/SUPPORT" on their descriptions to the unwary and keeps in-place Elektron's desire all along only to make unaware customers into 'fanboys' and get them to purchase their other machines in order to get midid out, for instance--but that still is mostly within a 'closed Elektron system'...it's one really weird and wonder how razor sharp the fine line of truth in advertising and legalities it straddles?!
At least DSI is quite clear and honest about: 1)no sample import, and 2)midi out is only one channel at sacrifice of a voice/track.
I realize that limitations can indeed spawn an atmosphere for focused creativity but midi being around 30 years now, it seems people are not exactly adhering to the so-called 'industry standard' set-up.

So, is the continual re-hash of the electronic drum machine an exercise in blatant capitalism? Could we also say same with Korg and their seemingly continual release of their Triton sound engine, which is entirely ROM sample based? Roland's "Fantom" sound engine? Both just introduced yet new series in what one could surmise as a 'dead horse' at NAMM this past week.

Maybe some things are indeed so good there's a reason they keep hanging around, just like those 808/909 samples.

Or...

Is it simply we humans that insist on NOT moving-on?
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  #17  
Old 27.01.2014, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by TweakHead View Post
when it comes to drum machines, to this day, there's two takes:

one is the sequencer based drum programming, like the Roland TR series

the other is the MPC kind of way, where you perform with sensitive pads that give you the dynamics and groove of a natural performance - hopefully.

the Maschine is like the natural progression of this two things, coupled with software integration, now that we're living in the DAW age. but, it's still dependant on the very same things. plus, even on NI's factory bank you find a ton of original 808 and 909 samples. Fact is, even most modern music rellies heavily on layering those or synthesized drums in general with accoustic samples for multi-layered, real fat drums.

the coming together of Dave Smith (almost the father of MIDI) and Roger Linn, the man behind the MPC and the inventor of midi swing, quantize, etc; in the form of Tempest doesn't read to me like a step back, but a clear sign that what worked back then still works today, but that's entirely dependant on your workflow and setup of course.

owning Maschine, you know how the physical interface has an impact on how you make your beats, and having a simple and intuitive interface allows you to dive deeper on the drum side of making music. same thing can be said for these machines of the past, some of them being used to this day both on studio or live.
Actually the MPC is a sampler & does NOT generate any sound unlike the the drum machines I am talking about which are completely redundant at this point as far as I'm concerned. Sure there are people still using them...hey there are still some old farts putting together analog synths but I dont hear any MUSIC out of them just a bunch of boring blips & squelches. & yes if I want that generic beat box sound (I mean any of them that have ever been manufactured in the last 30 years) i can, but they mostly sound like crap so why would I. This is 2014...Hello!
The one thing I used to hate when I started DJing was the forty somethings coming up to me & say "play some 60's stuff' thankfully there generation are mostly dead now so I don't have to hear about the good old days & play there (mostly) crap music.
I think most people have the generic 808/909 sampled out the ying yang & releasing ANOTHER box with buttons, knobs & flashing LED's isn't going to make it sound any more interesting.
I was a drummer in several bands for many years playing the real thing & for me the Maschine is about as good as it gets for modern beat making. Before that it was all about the MPC but times have changed.
The point I am trying to get at is the people who embraced the new drum sound back then are just as stuck in the sound as old farts that still like 60's music. I guarantee there are very few young electronic producers even bothering with trade shows like NAMM.
Seriously, why would they? With DAW's like Ableton live etc. who needs a bunch of flashing boxes with knobs to wank off too
Oh yeah thats right, young electronic producers are mostly wankers...please disregard this post
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  #18  
Old 27.01.2014, 01:28 PM
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Thanks for sharing your opinion, everyone's entitled to one and as always you speak for yourself.

I see drum machines as physical modelling versions of the static drum samples you have in your collection. Sure you can process and warp samples any way you wish in Kontakt, Live or MPC or whatever, but with analog drum machines you can truly modulate the sounds on the fly. There's the difference. An instrument, or a sample.

For me, however, drum machines are not so interesting as they always seem very electro, minimal or 80's. Not really the sound I'm after unless layered with other stuff, but for many people they are.
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  #19  
Old 27.01.2014, 02:13 PM
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Also owning a Maschine, I do agree it seems hard to get excited about new drum machines, because in addition to the sample library we also have the drum synths and the ability to play other plug-ins and tweak and manipulate in real-time. Because percussion is the least of my CPU worries in a DAW environment, dedicated hardware for this doesn't bring much to my particular setup.

But another side of this I see is that new gear is inspirational, and a because an existing piece of gear in our collection can perform a certain task it doesn't preclude a new piece of gear that also performs the task from bringing a fresh sound to the palette. A new piece of gear inspires discovery and creativity, perhaps even more so if there's an interesting story behind it (like the designer of a previously legendary instrument). Sometimes acquiring new stuff keeps us motivated. Even just getting a new plug-in can make me want to sit down and learn it in depth, and at least for folks like me who do it purely for the love of music, that can make it all worthwhile.

It's amazing what impact just a change in physical layout can have. I wrote before about what a gamechanger it was for me when I bought the Maschine stand and mounted it atop a Roland PDS-10. Who would have thought a couple of pieces of metal make that big of a difference? Just a simple shift in ergonomics changed & improved how I use Maschine and the impact of it to me in large amounts. Berni, also being a former drummer, do you remember that feeling when gigging and someone moved one of your instruments about 1/8th of an inch out of kilter and you immediately felt the impact? If so you can relate to what I mean about ergonomic layout here.

So I don't want a new drum machine right now but I guess there are others that are interested in these. In terms of my personal thoughts -- I look at the new stuff at NAMM this year and I have a hard time getting excited about any of it. Nord is starting to get confusing with their product line and positioning of things, I don't know what I would do with a Moog that I can't already do with my Leipzig-S (the comments in the Moog vid about the sequencer being a "future possibility" are going to be funny to any Leipzig owner), I really don't know what Roland is even trying to accomplish these days or at least how their products apply to me. As far as this Bitwig Studio DAW -- one of the first questions they should answer in their FAQ is why do we need yet another full priced DAW and what does Bitwig bring to the table that current DAWs do not? Fail, it wasn't there.

In the mean time I'm pretty happy with my current gear setup. I'd love to see Access suddenly get themselves excited about their own Virus product line and do something interesting or innovative, particularly as it relates to the integration aspect, but I stopped holding out for that day about three or four NAMM shows back.
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Old 27.01.2014, 05:09 PM
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interesting posts here!

owning the Maschine, you guys need to realize you have a drum machine already...

I mean, would you be ok with just the software? or do you value the velocity sensitive pads? and the interface itself?

I think the physical interface is much more valuable then the sounds themselves. I mean, why on Earth would I need Maschine just for the library sounds? (they're damn good, but so are milions of sample packs out there?), or the software? owning a daw, how come I'd be interested in yet another piece of software to sequence, pitch-shift, time-stretch, or even, the recent and aclaimed drum synths, that look just like the Kong ones in old Reason, and sound no different then those boring samples on an 808 or 909, just like any synthesized drum sound will, imo. being so modern and proficient with digital tools, you know the source is just the raw material and what makes things stand out is the processing. and in drums, layering!

let me also tell you this: Roger Linn is the master when it comes to drum pads. both Maschine and Push, and Tempest owe that to him. you know of how close Akai and Ableton are, right? no wonder, this know how is what makes it work. compare the pads on such machines with those on a Novation SL mk2 and you'll instantly know why. and Tempest, sounds like 80's? hell, go to a store and try it, then process those sounds with your plug-in chain of choice and you have full spectrum analogue voices, midi synced, perfect sensitive pads, so forth and so on... just saying...

Myself, I don't even use Battery. I use audio channels. and I can make it sound like a real drummer if I want to. but will probably get Maschine, just for the interaction itself, the physicial interface mind you, not the software side of things. Maschine is a controller with excepcional pads and software integration, period.

Analogue doesn't necessarily sound old and dusty. Just visit a friend that happens to own a euro rack system and you'll instantly be reminded why... just my 2 cents
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