Korg Re-Issue mini-MS20 Monosynth!!!!

[namnibor]

Originally Posted by TweakHead

Yeah, no sympathy for people who have never blown speakers!

On Hanz Zimmer's interview on Access's website he says exactly the same: that he turned to the Mini Moog for extreme bass.

I know for a fact that most EDM producers use digital synths for Bass. It's mainly got to do with precision: since there's usually the option to lock the phase on the oscillators. Either that, or use other sources, such as Analogue, but sampled. And it's no easy task: you have to record many notes for the same note, and choose the best sounding one (for all of them)...

That's mainly what's happened here:

http://www.spectrasonics.net/products/trilian.php

This product is done like that: a lot of good sources, sampled carefully and ready to go. (I think it doesn't include the growl bass shit, however )

But I somehow miss the all over the place, more organic and unprecise synth bass. I think the BPM has gone way up, nowadays, because you can trully get more precision with digital sequencers and synths, and sampling... I mean, you couldn't possibly expect an analogue synth to cope with 160bpm KBBB bass, that's why you'd see much more glide taking place on the 90's rave scene then nowadays... The TB303 era, so to speak... Most modern synths still sell on the basis of recreating that kind of filter for squelchy delights, and analogue warmth, and distortion still sells to... So Bass is probably the area where it shows people want the best of both worlds, nowadays...

Right-on! Now, unlike some of the shits on other forums that either LOVE to hate on the Virus OR seemingly always want to get into this debate over whether true analog is only VCO rather than DCO, (even Dave Smith has said many times over that the DCO is real analog with only exception of **digital stabilization** of frequency, hence no tuning issues), I DO wonder if a DCO would be more apt to get to those insane speeds with it's accuracy in and not so much 'glide'...just a thought?!
The analog halves of the Evolvers CAN get nice and juicy with right twiddling, but for LESS than a price of a DSI Mopho with it's 2 DCO's and 2 subharmonoic osc's, we can soon buy the Korg MS20(mini but same monster sound and exact circuitry VCO's) and SO easily have a very capable rumbling, growling, fell-in-your-brain-bass monosynth that's got a quite massive modulation patch-bay panel that could be enough to tickle people to grow other modular pieces thereof.
I am on speculating here but mark my words, Korg could quite *possibly* then re-release a mini-MSQ20 (the analog sequencer of same shape) and the couple others or even brand new addition to this line as well !!!
Back when I had the orig. and had learned much about it and was firstly an enlisted in US Air Force, we had dormatory rooms very much like college campus's do and once a week our Flight Commander would go through and perform inspections, mainly for cleanliness, etc. I had rigged the MS20 in a closable desk cabinet with a microphone connected to either cv or external audio with a program I had dialed-in that sounded JUST LIKE original video game Space Invader's laser-firing-off when the mic had detected a sound loud enough to set it off, of course leaving everything on, the small amp and monitors. I remember getting a direct call on the Motorola Radio hanging from my belt from her, my commander, asking, "HOW DO YOU STOP THIS??!", with of course the sound of laser fire from fast envelopes with pink noise and high pass filter in background of her voice!!! I did not get in any trouble and she simply unplugged everything to turn it off--just ONE of the very fond memories I have of this beast! Thought you might enjoy a blast from my intestinal past! HA!
The Korg sites gives you the specs and imagine having TWENTY SECOND attack time and equal decay for a sound that blows away any roland-ish 303 sound....have never really been a fan of 303 sound but I do appreciate its place in synt/music history. Matter in fact, the orig. 303 was NOT a big seller for roland rather, it was indeed the music and dj scene of 90's that brought that from it's relative grave and like you said (I think), roland would be truely missing the boat, since there's SO MANY imitators of that box to this day.
Lastly, if you go to DSI website and click on the huge image of Prophet 12 firstly all over page and then click on that video of dave doing a cool but short teaser of the Prophet 12...look in the background on a Prophet 5, he has a liquer bottle of tiquila WITH a FULL shot glass sitting there just waiting for him!!! I just noticed that and am sure that was not an oversight by this man!!!

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by namnibor

Right-on! Now, unlike some of the shits on other forums that either LOVE to hate on the Virus OR seemingly always want to get into this debate over whether true analog is only VCO rather than DCO, (even Dave Smith has said many times over that the DCO is real analog with only exception of **digital stabilization** of frequency, hence no tuning issues), I DO wonder if a DCO would be more apt to get to those insane speeds with it's accuracy in and not so much 'glide'...just a thought?!

I think it's got more to do with stability in tunning, rather then have the phase of the waves recycle for every note. Something that's a "must have" for real stable bass sounds, much used in EDM music - like psychedelic trance, the sound that's become standard for it, it's got this very precise and fast notes, creating a bass floor that's as precise as a swiss clock - maybe even more. But I think it's a good idea to have microchips tunning those oscillators while making them more able to cope with more extreme modulations at the same time. Honestly don't know if there's the option for phase retrigger on those... The fact is, it really doesn't matter much, because it's quite fun to make a sampler instrument out of that gear, takes a lot of work, but will ultimately produce a unique sound that no one else has got.

About that, all it takes (besides a lot of time, and I mean A LOT) is some kind of wave editor, such as wavelab, that lets you zoom in on the audio and select the snap to zero cross values on the waveforms - it doesn't have to be 0 phase, of course, but it's easier that way, because what you're looking for is stability for all the notes on the sampled instrument.

To give you some perspective on it:

pick your virus and build a simple patch with only one sawtooth oscillator, a lowpass filter pretty much closed and with no resonance, add some filter envelope modulation to it, this one have a little decay going, and a touch of release. Now, turn on the ARP (hold mode on), the first pattern is ok, and go to the AMP envelope, have a little decay, little sustain going, and adjust the release so as to make it feel more natural, and add a little attack so that you don't ear the click. Now, bring the tempo up to, say, 160 bpm...

If you add phase init value to it, say value "1", it plays smoothly and steady (once the envelopes are tweaked right), if you turn it off (0 value) it's rather nasty. The Virus is always set to free running mode (with the 0 value on phase init on oscillator section) by default, and that's a feature used to emulate the behaviour of analogue synths, so that every note is slightly different. But for that kind of machine gun sound (funny using this metaphor to you) it's better to have the phase locked, as you can clearly ear. And that's pretty much what we've grown to expect nowadays in most modern genres of electronic music, that's why people say something like "rock solid bass", it's very steady in both presence and timbre.

So, I'll check if there's some DCO's out there with (phase) retrig option on them, honestly don't know

If Korg doesn't release the sequencer, you can take a look at what they used on some of their demos, the Kaos machines. I don't know if they send real CV or just audio, with those, will have to check, but those are great for many stuff. I think the MS 20 probably reads both CV messages and audio could be used as a modulation source as well, right?

Liked the story of the general getting mad with an alien sounding classic synth, of course

Dave has earned the right to drink his tequilla shots

[namnibor]

There WAS a NAMM video demo of the MS20 using an MP3 player as input/external sig in and cannot seem to find that video right now but it was pretty amazing how it responded to audio alone.
Just rec'vd. an email back from Waldorf in my blatant quest for sound demos possibly soon of their anticipated Pulse 2 in which they curtly stated, "We will make some audio examples when the Pulse 2 is in a state where we can
take samples " I wrapped that request in a thankyou for directing me last month in where in the USA I could obtain preformatted Q-cards for Q-rack .
Speaking of which and the tuning inherent with the Virus emulating characteristics of analog--the Waldorf Q engine has a similar tuning that actually can be altered globally or per voice/program from zero to 100% and called "The HMT function", in which the tuning is not static, but rather dynamic and adjusts depending on content and say for instance, chord structure, whether it is a Major/Minor, a third, fifth, and so on. It even shows a setting to ensure you send these settings to other instruments via midi...I am of course just touching tip of deep iceberg of learning curve of the Q and is very interestingly scientific in explainations in the manual to where you can tell a person that is BOTH a musician and engineer wrote/designed/programmed this beast. Thought I'd share this since on the tuning fork--so-to-speak! Ha!

[namnibor]

Just talked with my Sweetwater Rep and learned something new about the MS20 and was directed to product description as to have something to copy/paste here, which will follow.
Although this IS a faithful reproduction, yet 86% of orig. in size, Korg used digital stabilization on the ANALOG osc's, which is kind of coy marketing jargon to be sure to cause rehash of the grand ol' debate between VCO/DCO--with both being true analog, just the DCO is digitally stabilized for tuning purposes only. here's a direct copy of brief description from Sweetwater dot com's product page:
A Legendary Synthesizer Reborn!

Back and smaller than ever, Korg's MS-20 mini analog synthesizer revives the legendary MS-20 synth in all of its glory, but at 86% of the original size. This is no copycat knockoff either - the MS-20 mini is nearly identical to the original, with the same analog oscillators (now digitally stabilized), first-generation filters, and a VCA that's been tweaked to reduce noise. You'll also find cool new additions, including an External Signal Processor for your mics and instruments, MIDI In, and even USB connectivity, onboard the Korg MS-20 mini.
Now, although it does not SAY "DCO", and perhaps a new form of digital stabilization for as Korg states, "...with the SAME ANALOG OSC's...", has been developed by Korg but sales rep said, "You could CALL them DCO's, but the osc's behave and sound true to the orig. MS20 side by side."
What say you (anyone) about this new revelation? Would this change your avid interest?
Thanks,
Robert

[AndrewM]

I've pre-ordered mine yesterday... Can't wait till it arrives!

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by namnibor

What say you (anyone) about this new revelation? Would this change your avid interest?
Thanks,
Robert

It just makes it better, I think. Classic analogue is famous for getting out of tune, and being sensitive to temperature and stuff like that. Digital stability only means it always plays as it should and was thought out to sound in the first place. I have no doubt they would have implemented this back then if such a thing was possible. This is like the debate about tape warmth... Back in the days, it was a real pain in the ass to record stuff to tape and nowadays people complain about digital being to transparent - which engineers would have killed for in the sixties or seventies. Technology does evolve, and I'll be getting one of this perfectly tuned analogue classic beasts for sure and not give a crap about those that say the original sounds much better kind of bull - and it's true other foruns are filled with such people to the extent I can't even read it.

I was thinking of getting an analogue for a while, to be honest, but wasn't really interested in most of the stuff out there: for it's either short on features (or knobs, or both), or way to expensive. I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mopho, for example, sounds good, but to my eyes (and wallet) it sounds like a lot of cash for such a small device and having to dig through menus and all of that - just doesn't read analogue to me. I mean, I choose the Virus C over the Snow for some reason, and I don't regret it: I think people make better sounds by interacting with the instrument in an intuitive way, much more then having tons of features packed within menus, but then... I'm still an enthusiast for the features as well, and I obviously have no trouble with software instruments either, and that's why the snow is still on my wish list - or the desktop even, but would rather wait to see if something else comes up by the likes of Access, to.

But this new Korg, I think, is packed with enough juice on it to appeal to all those who have always liked the idea of having an analogue synth, but really couldn't afford the big ones, pretty much the same way as Arturia's MiniBrute - and not so much the Moog, which is far to expensive for what it does.

[Timo]

Digital stabilisation would be good. They're still analogue waveforms being generated. It's only affecting the tuning.

It means you can always program in instabilities yourselves, if you want them, but on your own terms.

[namnibor]

I totally concur with all three posts! I am still preordering here soon but since we were actually talking about this VERY subject prior to me talking to my Sweetwater Rep., I thought for the sake of continuity and information to pass it along. It was not a sour thing to my ears either but also wanted to hear the brilliant minds on here as far as feedback.
Yes, there's some other forums that I READ and glean ALOT of great information but do not so much contribute and cannot read the illogical debate of VCO/DCO and then those vehemant virus haters that cannot get their brains out of stereotyping (an perpetuating same) by seathingly stating and believing all the Virii are made and good for are **trance**! You know the types, am sure! To me that's akin to stating a certain brand of soccor ball is ONLY good for kicking by ONE BRAND and TYPE of tennis shoe or even simpler of the likes that strings/pads only are for filmwork/soundtracks...it's a non-critical thinking argument and if I were a monkey, would toss feces at the screen because am one to detest stereotypes in first place!
I remember I used to have to turn on my orig. Korg MS20 for a good 15 minutes, depending on ambient temperature, just as I hear they still need to do with Moogs, before osc's would remain in-tune and stable so yes, as Timo stated, this is actually additional control with this synth.
Thanks for all your feedback!

[TweakHead]

Yes, there's plenty of people speaking stupid stuff about the virus! it's a much capable machine, even to the point of doing some similar sounds to this one's on the demo here, for example: this is me tweaking knobs with arp on hold, just a recording...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2jrez9ay2j...oticMelody.mp3

[namnibor]

Good mind-trippy stuff....I love experimental tweaking and matter in fact has been a great way to hear real-time affects of different parameter changes.....and I absolutely LOVE the Virus C's "undo" button, rather than simply a "peek" function...I think all synths should have incredible edit buffers as the Virus does and have found the waldorf q is same fashion.
Sometimes I half wonder if those arguing so negatively about the virus are just full of sour grapes and bet most of them have never ladyed their hands on one other perhaps in turning the page in Keyboard Magazene, LOL! Lest we not forget the other debate of software vs. hardware, then they will say all our synths are just software anyway....oxyMORONS at their best!
Liked the trippy knob twiddling!