Filter to increase the brightness/crispness of the general Virus sound

[TweakHead]

might be "cumbersome", but we're talking "recursive modulation" for a synthesizer that was released in 2004 folks!

and if you look at it, the B could do it! and so could the Virus A!

the Nord Lead can't even invert the polarity on the filter envelope, even on Nord Lead 4! It does sound good and very crisp and clear on highs. but if you praise that sound, why would you go for a Virus C - that is known for a more darker tone - instead of it?

but seriously, the Nord can't adjust the curve of envelopes! period! recursive modulation in the Virus is a bliss that extends it's options far beyond anything you can touch with the Lead.

this topic was about character: someone bought a Virus and likes the Nord sound better! Answer: you've made a bad choice! Try before buy! The envelope's curves have nothing to do with the kind of byte and highs you can get out of a Nord Lead. That's just the Nord sound - and some analogue machine's sound to.

The Ultranova... Well, it's just much more modern, isn't it? But there's plenty stuff the Virus C or B can do that it can't folks. More then the other way around.

Now, if we're talking multi-stage envelopes on some software instruments, ok, nothing the Virus can touch! Hardware? Can do almost anything that comes to my mind!

There's another way to change the slopes of envelopes (I remember Timo posted the work around once): it's using the LFO's in envelope mode, single hit (you know the deal), pick your wave, change the "contour", do whatever it is you like to it...

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by MBTC

I seem to recall reading that somewhere else here. Seems like kind of a cumbersome way to get non-linear settings, although I can see how it might have needed to be implemented that way on a hardware synth (especially pre-TI models where the display on the board itself is all you have). A visual of the line goes a long way (not sure if Virus Control for the TI offers that or not -- they should be able to add it easily enough if not).

I think that hey didn't already because it's possible to do it with recursive modulation and because of patch compatibility with older models - the features that were present in earlier models are left intact on the TI.

but the thing is: why would anyone buy a synthesizer whose sound one doesn't like? there are plenty of second hand nord leads out there for a bit over half the price of a Virus C, so...

because I totally get why anyone looking for the Nord sound would feel frustrated with the Virus - and the other way around. even though they're both VA, they're totally different beasts and the main difference is in the character: the virus sounds warm and grittier while the Nord sounds clean and crisp - there's no way around that fact!

funny enough, the Novation's synths sound somewhat similar do the Nord: it's got a very liquid and smooth sound on the highs, less crisp and harsh but still a lot of presence that easily cuts through the mix. I think Novation's sound sits somewhere between the Nord and Roland - it's got some roundness to the sound. While, for example, the Waldorf's sound much more edgier and with tons of ear piercing highs on them.

I don't think any of these is better. it's just different: many people have one of each and find a place for them on their mixes.

someone said here: nord and virus do complement each other quite nicely! that's exactly how I see it!

plus, I'm inclined to say: spend a little more time programming the Virus and you'll see it can get you very crisp sounds. the recipe above is about that: when you want to get close to Nord sound (without considering actually buying one, of course), turn off everything that isn't present on the Lead. It's got no effects, it only has one filter whose envelope can't be inverted, so forth and so on... but then... the FM on the Lead sounds a lot different to the Virus, for some "classic" sounds, it's the Nord that provides them. for others, the Virus is much more capable! also, if you modulate pitch with a sine wave LFO on the Lead or on the Virus, the results are different in sound even with very similar settings. they don't even have similar maximum frequencies on them...

so what can I say? grab a Lead. take more time programming your Virus to! if you boost the highs and do the opposite in the lows and low mids, you get much more presence (the gain structure across the spectrum changes)... once you move the filters, though, it might not sound as you want. so make the EQ follow the filter movement instead: assign a soft knob (or mod wheel or whatever) to make the EQ band's frequency move with the filter cuttoff (sort like EQ key tracking, made with modulation! handy uh?) if it doesn't sound pleasant enough yet, then keep on fine tunning it: the boost in the EQ could decrease or increase as filter cutoff gets higher, or the other way around. pretty easy to set up on the Matrix.

thinking like this you can overcome many of the apparent limitations a given synthesizer (not just the Virus!) seems to have when it comes down to "the way it sounds". with plenty of modulation options (that are not exactly "standard", I give you that) there's not much to complain about. be relentless. experiment experiment experiment

[bluesmoose]

Thanks to feedingear, chimney chop, and MBTC for their posts.
I have some things to experiment with.
Thanks.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by bluesmoose

Thanks to feedingear, chimney chop, and MBTC for their posts.
I have some things to experiment with.
Thanks.

No love for Tweakhead? I DECLARE SACRILIDGE!

Seriously though, Tweaks posts are almost always worth a read, even when I find his opinion not aligned with my own.

To clarify my position here, there are lots of ways programmatically to achieve logarithmic and exponential slopes of lines without recursion, so I do believe it is going ass-over-elbow-to-get-to-thumb. Not an elegant solution.

Was there a technical reason it was done with the DSP's of the early Virus models? Very possibly, I cannot comment on that. I was absent from the synth world (in terms of ownership of one) from about mid 90s until 2006-ish, and when I look at the evolution of electronic music brought forth by the legendary Virus line, it's clear that this is not a feature the synth necessarily needed to be successful. The Virus can produce good sound, even if sometimes unintuitively. Some synths have implemented slope algorithms for various features in a way that is non-modifiable, and to some extent that can be a musically "good thing". It can give a synth a specific profile or individual character, that lets you potentially recognize a synth's sound. Thinking about that for a second, that's exactly what occurs with acoustic instruments like piano or guitar for example. The sound profile is inherently parameterized... basically limited by the physical characteristics of the instrument. Good for character, but not so much for flexibility.

Back to my position -- what I was trying to say is that the Virus models that implement curves via recursion (for better or worse in terms of computation speed), the equation could still be expressed graphically somewhere. I wouldn't necessarily expect or want the TI2 line for example to be able to produce filter slopes that were vastly incompatible with previous models, but the bottom line is that the slope is what it is, regardless of derivation. This means that with regard to VIRUS CONTROL SOFTWARE (operative concept here), it *COULD* be expressed visually, and even given a very user-friendly way to tweak it.

I've got a softsynth called Oresus that I paid something like $25 for. It lets you use the mouse to bend the curves like they are rubber bands. The math behind them is so much less important than the visceral relationship between the sound sculptor and his design goal.

So, all I was really saying is that it wouldn't take much for Access to include a feature into Virus Control, without affecting existing patches, that would allow users to easily manipulate these lines. The math behind them can remain what it is, however efficient or convoluted or whatever. That's just a modern expectation of audio software.

If I seem down on the Virus, I'm really not. I want one. Its just that from someone who cares about overall value, I just wish they could keep up with $25 softsynths in terms of technological progression.

[TweakHead]

Not worried about the exclusion from the "thanks" list. I stand by every word I said! Plus, I dare say there's some handy tips on my last post and took some time to write that for a total stranger, so...

@bluesmoose #$%& u!

try ebay.com then moan!

Now, of course there's plenty of plug-ins doing that. Even Albino 3 does that. But I honestly don't think it would be that easy to do that. It still needs a modulation assignment to get it working. Imagine you have a patch so complex that all the modulation slots are taken...

TBO, I think that's just a minor detail. Once you're familiar with the instrument, you get the envelopes in the shape you want quite fast and easily. There's not even independent volume for each oscillator, let alone that. But it's still a great instrument, even though it doesn't sound like a Lead, and it's got it's own set of limitations. Some you can easily overcome with some clever modulation. That means, of course, you're also using modulation assignments to do that, that can prevent you to do something else. I, for one, feel that having to deal with limitations actually tends to help creatively and in the sound design process. And sure it does make you know the instrument inside out and do some stuff most people would assume it couldn't do without even trying.

[TweakHead]

It's easy enough to implement that on a new instrument. It's not that easy to do that with a fixed arquitecture that's been here for long. There's many things to consider: the whole range of the Virus is identical in all aspects they have in common. If you have a patch made on the A, B or C, it should sound the same on the TI. So I guess it's just a brand priority. There's some HS patches that make clever use of this recursive modulation thing, for example, it takes a slot or two in the matrix. To change this into a more easy interface (only available on the TI range, of course, the first post was about a Virus C, uh? never mind...) would take much for such a tiny thing.

One of these days people will be complaining about not having multi-stage envelopes on a Virus B... you know? yes, things evolve and in software there are no limitations of any kind besides the cpu hit of the instrument, so it's kind of natural that some plug-ins have that and the Virus doesn't. You say 25 bucks, I say there's some free, open-source ones that do that. It's not a big deal. FM8 or Absynth can put any kind of envelopes in hardware to shame. So what?

But how do we get from Virus not being able to sound like a Nord. Or sounding "plastic and fake", to envelope's contour options versus recursive modulation? I don't think the difference between the two is down to the envelope's curves at all.

And if the Virus isn't keeping up with software, how about the Lead? Does it? I think the one who started this thread was looking for that particular character - and I know what he's talking about - and the best answer to that is still: just grab one! Let's not get into a it's all down to the converters thing, but I like the nord 1 and 2 better then 2x (possibly down to the older converters making the sound less clear, creating the illusion of more byte to it, don't know...) and they're fairly cheap on second hand market. But it's a much more "cumbersome" instrument. What it does, it does great and has "that sound".

How about a TB303 or a Mini Moog? they're pretty cumbersome to. Good that people can change the envelope's curves on some plug-in, uh? What the hell are we talking about here? It's the sound that counts.

[MBTC]

Keep in mind I'm not saying it would be easy to change the method in which, architecturally, the slopes are achieved on the Virus hardware itself.

I'm saying they wouldn't need to. Even a mediocre software developer with high school level math could take their existing recursion method, and display it visually and provide a couple of knobs to modify the curve of the lines, so they are out of excuses as to why they have not made Virus Control plugin competitive with other offerings. We are talking here about modification to the software plug-in only, not the Virus. They don't need to go back to hardware manufacturing design, just update their software like every other software publisher does, with a value-added feature set.

Actually, because the Virus itself is only software, they could offer both legacy and "modern times" methods of achieving this, but there could be some issues with regard to physical knobs and such (I doubt anything insurmountable). But yes even on the hardware it should be achievable with a firmware update alone.

I'm not saying the software work would be easy, or should be done with the Virus C, but it could be doable there as well by a third party editor, once again without changing the nature of how the curves are derived.

But the crux of my position is that despite how easy it is to do right, don't hold your breath waiting for Access to do it. They transcended complacency a long time ago and have been riding on all-in-arrogance for many years. The best you can hope for is an announcement in NAMM 2016 of the coveted limited edition PinkStar, a Virus with pink keys for those fans of Lady Gaga or Ke$ha Another color change, yay. Marvels of innovation.

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by MBTC

But the crux of my position is that despite how easy it is to do right, don't hold your breath waiting for Access to do it. They transcended complacency a long time ago and have been riding on all-in-arrogance for many years. The best you can hope for is an announcement in NAMM 2016 of the coveted limited edition PinkStar, a Virus with pink keys for those fans of Lady Gaga or Ke$ha Another color change, yay. Marvels of innovation.

I guess sarcasm is running strong in this forum. Made me laugh!

I agree with you. I only think even if they did it, that option could possibly conflict with at least some patches - since it has to use the modulation matrix slots to achieve so, at least on the current architecture. A firmware update would be great, of course. But if I have to "hold my breath", like you say, I'm assuming major changes will only arrive with a new version of the Virus - when and if such a thing ever comes to be. And I honestly hope they focus on taking some of the suggestions from people here (I'm going to proclaim the obvious here: we're the best making suggestions for hardware on the entire web, gear slutz are amateurs compared to the core members here XD), if not mine, at least Timo's idea of what the Virus could touch would make me happy enough to buy one. User drawable waves for both LFO and oscillators would totally kill! And I'm pretty sure they'd implement them on both modules, pretty much like they did with the extra 64 waves - that are the thing that set the Virus apart in terms of modulation to these day! Well, other companies have been sleeping more then Access has. I'm thinking Clavia here. I mean, last update you got extra envelopes on the Virus and that brings any synthesizer to another level in terms of possibilities whilst the Lead is still very similar in features - even the latest one - to a classic hardware synthesizer. But they are the first (I think so, no?) to have done a Virtual Analogue and despite that fact, the thing does sound great. I discovered to my surprise (quite recently) that I love some of the sounds you get out of it. You've heard them everywhere on classic tunes from primordial EDM times, from Goa classics, to House, to Techno, to almost everything you can imagine. The fact that it's got a simple architecture plays on it's behalf if you're using it rather then looking at a detailed specs sheet - because of the immediacy of the interface that asks you "just go ahead and tweak me". Plenty of ways to look at the same thing.

But to make things clear, I do agree with you. All efforts should be made to make simple things simple. Sometimes they involve getting deeply under the hood though and I think it would conflict with some patches currently on the libraries and would just be another mess to get into. And they have plenty of that with the "integration" thing already. Just speculation of course...

I think this is the way to go with most manufacturers out there: better integration, perfect sync, screen editors or proper plug-ins to integrate into our host apps with total recall... I believe we will get it pretty soon! And I have the feeling Access is going to surprise us when the time comes. I was actually glad that one of the guys has been busy with the guitar stuff, means it's not just sleeping over success, there's a reason behind this delay. I think the update sort of makes up for it and most people that own the Ti or Ti2 just moan about it because they've paid the big buck for something that doesn't work as publicized regarding the integration. But if you compare the specs on the C to the TI with the latest update, you'll hardly think they've been sleeping!

[bluesmoose]

Originally Posted by TweakHead

Plus, I dare say there's some handy tips on my last post and took some time to write that for a total stranger, so...

@bluesmoose #$%& u!

There was nothing constructive in your first post.
It was a rant defending the Virus and attacking people's choices and opinions.
Based on the contents of the first post, I didn't read the second.

Originally Posted by TweakHead

@bluesmoose #$%& u!

Thanks.

That shows who you really are, I suppose.
.

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by bluesmoose

There was nothing constructive in your first post.
It was a rant defending the Virus and attacking people's choices and opinions.
Based on the contents of the first post, I didn't read the second.




Thanks.

That shows who you really are, I suppose.
.

no time right now. I'll get back to this. Nothing constructive, hey? Care to explain?