gear purchase, some questions

[sklawlor]

ve been taking another look at Omnisphere and there have been some good things happening with the accessibility of this synth for screen readers that someone in the blind community has been working on in terms of being able to get at elements regarding sound design.

I'm thinking that a dedicated pc with omnisphere, sonar and the CakeTalking scripts (which is a third party accessible solution for the application) as wel as a midi controller would equal or come in under the price of the Access Virus TI II. The one thing that still attracts me to this synth is all the knobs for realtime control but I have to ask myself, is that realtime control worth all that money if I can program evolving sounds with omnisphere.

Also, since the virus is a virtual analog synth, things like pianos, woodwinds and the like I don't believe are as readily available or able to be programmed and if I remember right, doesn't Omnisphere have all those sorts of acoustic and orchestral sounds as well as sounds for lots of ambient sort of composing keeping in mind that ambient often uses acoustic sounds?

Basically, I'd like to get the best synth with the most flexibility that will give me the ability to follow my musical voice, wherever it leads. Since I've been out of composing music for so long, I have a notion of what I'd like to write but I can't say I know for sure if that makes sense.

From what I've read, people who have the virus, some of them also have Omnisphere. Obviously I can't afford both so I've been trying to look at the options from the economic aspect of things and the artistic side in terms of flexibility and accessibility. I know there have been a lot of discussions about omnisphere versus the access virus and I understand that they're both different so I'm not trying to get people to compare the two

In terms of how much pc I'd need for omnisphere, we all know the minimul requirements by software manufacturers rarely address real-world scenarios so for you guys who have this synth, can you give me some details about optimum pc setups to look into, provided I go that way?

And to add to this list of questions, which keyboard controller would be a good fit for omnisphere? If possible, I'd like to get something where I could have some knobs to change effects or other sound mangling possibilities so I don't have to use the pc and sure, you could probably say, just get the virus if you want all that with the knobs. The problem as I see it with the virus is that it's plug-in interface isn't accessible os doing things like searching for sounds would be hit and miss, like say I want to find a choir sound. With the virus, as far as I know, there's no direct dial way to get to the sound, but with omnisphere and the access technology, I could get to category search or to the browser page as far as I can tell and at least have a starting point.

Also, I've read that some people say that the DAW's from sweetwater are overpriced and under perform and I'd like to get people's input on how good their systems are for that purpose.

Thanks for giving me your feedback on this issue.

[MBTC]

If you're creating ambient, I really think you want Omnisphere instead of the Virus. And yes to acoustic and orchestral sounds on Omnisphere, it has a massive sample library. You can use it in that capacity, tweak the samples, blend the samples with synthesis, or just use pure synthesis oscillators. Even as a plain synth, it stands up against some of the best in terms of features and sounds. With a good PC, you will have a more powerful instrument overall -- by that I mean you will be able to add multiple instances of Omnisphere, which in themselves are about as powerful as something like a Korg Triton or similar. You will not get that level of polyphony or overall sound out of a single Virus in real time without either having several of them, or bouncing down the audio to clips.

That said, Omnisphere is not the most CPU friendly plugin -- in fact its almost hard to call it a plug-in, since it is really kind of a workstation in itself. So if you think Omnisphere is going to be your go-to synth, don't skimp on the CPU you equip the PC with.

I know nothing about working with synths via a visual impairment, but my first instinct is that if I were unable to see, I would want to work with hardware synths and their knobs more than software, but the fact that you're using this message board indicates general computer use isn't an issue for you? Keyboard controllers are a personal preference, but I personally use a Novation Remote SL Compact 49-key, one of the features I liked about it was the Automap software, which is something that might be more of interest to you when/if you are working with multiple plugins. I'm also happy with overall quality and feel of the Novation board. I do not do a lot in the way of controlling the software on the PC through the board, like stop/play/record etc, but I know it can certainly be done with any DAW through the Automap software.

Yes, a lot of Virus owners are also Omnisphere owners, and although I don't have a Virus at the moment, I think they supplement each other well in the sense that a lot of people want the more electronic / trance sound of the Virus for harsh leads and such, but need an "everything else" synth to cover film-scoring type acoustic sounds. Omnisphere can do the trance sounds but the Virus does not excel at acoustic sounds. Virus can definitely produce atmospheric sounds, but I think subtractive VA synthesis is not always quite as quick of a route to this goal as something like Omnisphere is.

When you say DAW's from Sweetwater, are you referring to PC hardware setups or the host software (I think most people mean host software when they say DAW)? I personally wouldn't buy their PCs but would spec elsewhere, although I have not looked at their offerings lately. For CPU I would get a strong Core i7 processor, and nothing less. I am using a Core i7-965 which is 2.5 years old but still about as fast as the fastest available, and I still find myself sometimes wanting more processing power. The new Intel Sandy Bridge processors are roughly as fast as what I have, but are much more cost effective than mine was back in 2009.

Since you mentioned Sonar and CakeTalking scripts I assume you've already got the accessibility of the host software decided on and worked out. I would think that the accessibility of your host is probably going to be one of the most important factors that influence your music making efficiency, because you'll want to be able to do things like monitor the CPU usage as you go along.

As far as overall cost, when the goal is composing, I think there is no comparison. With the Virus you need a sequencer and other separate tools, and would probably want to benefit from software FX and related production tools at some point, so you'd need to buy a computer or equivalent gear anyway, its just a requisite piece of gear these days. So really I think you're comparing the cost of a PC plus Omnisphere versus the cost of a PC plus the Virus.

I'm not sure if I covered all the ground here, but hope I've helped somewhat.

[feedingear]

Personally I dont rate the actual analog synth sounds on omnisphere - its very rare that they will find their way into my production. But as far as odd, kooky, textured, psycho acoustic layers, interesting ambiences, and the ability to mess with samples and do some fairly in depth editing, it is an extremely handy VST to own - particuarly if you work in scoring for film/game/tv.

MBTC is right on the money with caning your CPU - ive got a i72600k on 16gb DDR3 ram, w7 with Cubase 6 and 9 instances of omni can cause spikes for me.

If you are interested in ambient/pads, you could always look at NI Absynth, and Reaktor. Some of the Reaktor ensembles are amazing.

[MBTC]

Agreed that Omnisphere is not the one tool to have for analog junkies. There are some great samples there, you can grab a jupiter pad and it really sounds like a jupiter pad because it IS exactly that, and with some work you might get something amazing out of it by combining a synth layer onto it to affect timbres, but a sample still is what it is. You can get some very good analog synth sounds out of Omnisphere's synth engine, it's just that if you're not into a high quality samples, then there is probably a more CPU efficient plug-in that offers more flexibility, I'm just not sure how many of them offer good accesibility for visual impairment, as that is an interesting topic on its own).

As I was trying to think of which other plugins I would recommend (given the original poster's requirement), I'd say with accessibility in mind, you might want to look into Nexus if sound design is not a priority for you. I'd love to recommend something like Zebra, but I cannot imagine how they would make it accessible, and being a semi-modular device, it is not the easiest to approach without mousing all over the screen (i.e. with pure keyboard controller knobs which is what I think you were looking for?).

The reason I thought about Nexus is your interest in acoustic sounds and some of the extremely high quality sound packs for it. Its the kind of plugin that drives a true synth freak nuts because of the inherent limits of samples, but given the types of sounds you're looking for in omnisphere, I'd say this should be your second stop. And yes, I would think you could get a good PC, Omnisphere, Nexus2 with a few sound packs and a good controller for somewhere around the same price as a Virus Ti2 keyboard.

[jgg]

...All depends on how you define synth - and no I'm not trying to be a smarta$$.

If you mean a device that allows you to quickly create any kind of sound you've already heard before - I would suggest looking at a Korg Kronos. It's a rompler, sample playback, FM synth, physical modeling synth, analog modeling synth, German and Japanese grand piano emulator, hammond organ emulator, and electronic piano emulator - and effects, sequencer, and auto-style-accompianment generator and more. You can even get one with 88 piano weighted keys for a true piano feel.

If you're looking at something that creates sounds from scratch in a way similar to the analog synths of the 60s through the 80s, Moog, Oberheim, Arps, Roland Jupiters and Junos, in a blender on steroids with effects and a vocoder, I can't recommend the Virus TI2 series enough! With any note you can grab a knob and tweak almost any parameter in realtime and hear it change instantly. Add two variable peddles, one hand on the mod wheel, you can complexly modulate sounds in multiple dimensions - it's an absolute blast! You can even layer up to 16 instruments across 6 stereo pairs (3 analog and 3 digital through USB on your computer) for some mind blowing complexity.
It's range is insanely huge, but it will never come close to create a real piano sound or other recorded instrument that a rompler can, but you can easily create sounds that have never been heard before.

If you're looking for a Korg Kronos instrument like set on a budget, get a good second hand keyboard controller and get Apple's Logic 9. It comes with many different virtual synths, FM, PM, AM, samplers, emulators, and is less than $500 (plus a Mac of course).

[MBTC]

Hey jgg -- hope I don't come across as disagreeable. I think the Korg Kronos is likely the modern equivalent of something like the Triton? (which I referenced), probably much more powerful, and I'm sure a great music making machine. I stand my my opinion though that with Omnisphere and a good PC setup, he can easily achieve the total voice throughput of probably several physical Kronos purchases at three grand each. If I were on stage I'd take the physical keyboards over patch switching but for the home composer there is necessity and there is excess.

I do agree, if someone really craves analog sound and behavior, the Virus is the first board that comes to mind for me. Real analog often goes along with monophonic or polyphonic but limited capabilities. I recently read a marketing statement from a Moog representative that conceded there is no perceptible difference between analog and virtual analog or even soft synths by the time it hits the listeners ear, but that Moog synths still provided a lot of in-studio inspiration for the player (which I fully understand, I was just surprised that someone from Moog would say that). So, at that point you have to go virtual analog -- I'm just waiting for the next gen of Virus to catch up to modern CPUs (at least partially?) and integration demands (USB 2? Thunderbolt maybe?) because they seem a bit stale at the moment.

I've been playing experimenting with the PC versus a Mac I recently bought, along with Logic Studio. Logic has a lot of things I like about it... some of the instruments that come with Logic are inspiring all by themselves depending on the music you're into. But when I see someone wanting bang for their buck, Macs are still at a disadvantage. Without spending for a high end Mac Pro, you are looking for a heat dissipation problem over time, which can lead to problems. Even Intel has said cooling is an afterthought to Apple. Apple has been successful marketing shiny and compact designs that are beautiful to the eye. Good for them. This particular poster probably does not care what his computer looks like, and is interested in Omnisphere for the accesibility features, which is going to give him something like 30% less computing bang for the buck if he goes Apple. I like Logic -- I am a geek at heart, and have enjoyed learning it and exploring features of Logic. For certain music creation tasks I really like the workflow. For raw processing power, or Omnisphere... if money is no object its a coin toss. If you care at all about price then the PC wins hands down here.

[feedingear]

Again agree with MBTC: bang for your buck - 500USD or less for Omnisphere, infinite instances with freezing is definitely the way to go. As someone whos owned a XV5080, a Triton Extreme and an M3, I do not miss my rompler AT ALL. So many more inspiring plugs, where you can work straight in the DAW, and do more creative, intuitive automation and editing.

[sklawlor]

Hi. Thanks all for the replies to my thread question. The one thing I found a bit confusing about the vuris was that there were two bank buttons and two buttons to go between patches in a bank so my question for you guys who use the virus is how do you quickly find sounds that you want to use for a composition? With thousands of sounds, for myself, I could see it taking quite a while to find the sound I'm after especially if there's no direct dial method for calling up patches. Do you use the TI II plugin to find patches or go the hardware route? Also, do you guys who replied to this thread have dedicated pc's for recording or do you just use a high end pc for general use including the audio side of things? I'm just going to be one guy with a keyboard and my music making is really a hobby and since ambient is such a nitch market, it's seeming like creative commons will be the way for me to get my music out there. Being a stay-at-home dad with a teenager, a toddler and an infant gives me little time right now for this hobby and I honestly won't be able to make the purchase until sometime next year but I wanted to do the research now anyway, just to have some ideas.

Thanks for more feedback and the continued dialog on the issues.

Scott

Originally Posted by MBTC

If you're creating ambient, I really think you want Omnisphere instead of the Virus. And yes to acoustic and orchestral sounds on Omnisphere, it has a massive sample library. You can use it in that capacity, tweak the samples, blend the samples with synthesis, or just use pure synthesis oscillators. Even as a plain synth, it stands up against some of the best in terms of features and sounds. With a good PC, you will have a more powerful instrument overall -- by that I mean you will be able to add multiple instances of Omnisphere, which in themselves are about as powerful as something like a Korg Triton or similar. You will not get that level of polyphony or overall sound out of a single Virus in real time without either having several of them, or bouncing down the audio to clips.

That said, Omnisphere is not the most CPU friendly plugin -- in fact its almost hard to call it a plug-in, since it is really kind of a workstation in itself. So if you think Omnisphere is going to be your go-to synth, don't skimp on the CPU you equip the PC with.

I know nothing about working with synths via a visual impairment, but my first instinct is that if I were unable to see, I would want to work with hardware synths and their knobs more than software, but the fact that you're using this message board indicates general computer use isn't an issue for you? Keyboard controllers are a personal preference, but I personally use a Novation Remote SL Compact 49-key, one of the features I liked about it was the Automap software, which is something that might be more of interest to you when/if you are working with multiple plugins. I'm also happy with overall quality and feel of the Novation board. I do not do a lot in the way of controlling the software on the PC through the board, like stop/play/record etc, but I know it can certainly be done with any DAW through the Automap software.

Yes, a lot of Virus owners are also Omnisphere owners, and although I don't have a Virus at the moment, I think they supplement each other well in the sense that a lot of people want the more electronic / trance sound of the Virus for harsh leads and such, but need an "everything else" synth to cover film-scoring type acoustic sounds. Omnisphere can do the trance sounds but the Virus does not excel at acoustic sounds. Virus can definitely produce atmospheric sounds, but I think subtractive VA synthesis is not always quite as quick of a route to this goal as something like Omnisphere is.

When you say DAW's from Sweetwater, are you referring to PC hardware setups or the host software (I think most people mean host software when they say DAW)? I personally wouldn't buy their PCs but would spec elsewhere, although I have not looked at their offerings lately. For CPU I would get a strong Core i7 processor, and nothing less. I am using a Core i7-965 which is 2.5 years old but still about as fast as the fastest available, and I still find myself sometimes wanting more processing power. The new Intel Sandy Bridge processors are roughly as fast as what I have, but are much more cost effective than mine was back in 2009.

Since you mentioned Sonar and CakeTalking scripts I assume you've already got the accessibility of the host software decided on and worked out. I would think that the accessibility of your host is probably going to be one of the most important factors that influence your music making efficiency, because you'll want to be able to do things like monitor the CPU usage as you go along.

As far as overall cost, when the goal is composing, I think there is no comparison. With the Virus you need a sequencer and other separate tools, and would probably want to benefit from software FX and related production tools at some point, so you'd need to buy a computer or equivalent gear anyway, its just a requisite piece of gear these days. So really I think you're comparing the cost of a PC plus Omnisphere versus the cost of a PC plus the Virus.

I'm not sure if I covered all the ground here, but hope I've helped somewhat.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by sklawlor

Also, do you guys who replied to this thread have dedicated pc's for recording or do you just use a high end pc for general use including the audio side of things? I'm just going to be one guy with a keyboard and my music making is really a hobby and since ambient is such a nitch market, it's seeming like creative commons will be the way for me to get my music out there.

The PC I spoke of, which is my primary PC is also a general purpose PC that gets used for everything. I play games on this PC, surf the web, etc. In terms of the technical considerations it's never been a problem. Since I write software too, I have all kinds of development related Windows services running that probably consume a small amount of CPU resources that could otherwise be used for synths, but its nothing that warrants a dedicated PC. Right now all of this stuff is crammed in one room -- actually 2 desktop PCs, one laptop thats docked when Im at home, and the Mac are all within easy reach with a swivel of a chair (the Mac, PC#2 and the laptop are hooked up to a KVM switch for shared monitor/keyboard/mouse).

From a purely creative perspective, however, I've often thought I would benefit from having a room that is "nothing but music", meaning the entire room has no software development books or anything that doesn't directly contribute to (or could potentially distract from) the music creation or sound design process. By that I mean as it is, its too tempting for me to leave an e-mail or a chat client up while I'm making music or sculpting sounds, then find myself wanting to attend to the distraction. But its really more psychological than technical. And I also worry that if I did create a dedicated setup, I would just feel compelled to get up and walk in here occasionally to check e-mail or see who is bugging me on chat

[jgg]

My understanding of the Kronos is that it's more like the Oasys than the Triton, it's certainly much more than the 01/W or M1 models which I've owned.

Another best bang for the buck idea is the Akai Miniak for around $270 on Amazon right now. It's an improved Alesis Micron synth and certainly more than a tenth of a Virus (or half a Blofield) It's pretty easy to get around the basics without much visual cues, but then I haven't yet started trying to dial into the deeper menus - patch creation - sequencer functions. It's very easy to jump to the basic keyboard / bass / synth / etc. sounds. 37 full size keys, vocoder, and it comes with a microphone that plugs into the top.

To address the "how do you find patches out of the thousands of ones out there" question, I've create my own banks of sounds I really like, which is easy to do with the Virus Control TI software. The thousands of sounds are fun to randomly surf through more for ideas and possibilities than the "I really need to find that exact sound". Usually you already know where to find something close to what you're looking for and it's easier to tweak it into shape. After a while playing with the Virus, you can get to the point where you can dial a new sound from scratch, although I find I get distracted by the possibilities and end up creating sounds nothing like what I imagined at the beginning of the process. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, some of the results end up way beyond where they started out toward.

Hope this helps.
JGG