Buying either Snow or Desktop TI - Noob Questions

[12341234]

Originally Posted by MBTC

I wanted to reply to your original question, but I've already written so many of my experiences with the Virus (I had a Ti2 Desktop unit once before but I've returned to all-software for the time being) in various threads on this forum (and when I wrote them, some things were much fresher in my mind), that my best offering is to ask that you take some time to read over what I and others have written about the issues with total integration and USB over the past few years. I say that because the TI aspect and DAW integration seems important to you, as it was to me, and that was the biggest letdown aspect of the Virus to me. Also, it seems like you like pluck/pad type trance sounds, which as you know are resource intensive, and IMO this is not a strong point of even the Ti2 which is twice as powerful as the Snow. I came to the conclusion that the total processing power of the Virus made it seem like my own CPU was about 10 times more powerful. How much other Virus users agree or disagree can really come down to other things like what types of sounds they are using, the music they are producing, how much realtime control they are willing to give up by bouncing down tracks etc.

Personally the difficulty of getting the thing working consistently and dealing with latency in the DAW was not worth it, thus I went back to VSTs. Some of the VSTs I use (Zebra, Synthmaster, Dune etc) actually seem to do plucks and leads better than the Virus to my ears. I think most of the folks that are happy with their Viruses are not very dependent on the TI aspect.. maybe I'm wrong about that.

Thanks for your feedback. I have indeed read many threads here and on other forums, watched every video I can find, all of which seem to be a mixed bag of people either loving or hating the Virus... some say it works flawlessly and the sound is bar none the best, some say its total rubbish with all sorts of glitches and VST's can match the quality etc. Personally, I have never hands on tried a Virus so I do not know for sure. What I have heard in a few pro studio demos are some really fantastic pads and filter morphing (+ just about everything else imaginable)... which is why I am now on the hunt for a Virus. As I said, I own or have tried all of the latest "top" suggested VST's such as the various U-He models (which are quite good for some sounds no doubt), Sylenth (again good for some), Nexus, Korg Legacy, Omnisphere/Trilogy, Arturia, Dune and so on... all are good for some things, but none good for all. - I have not tried Synthmaster though, IYO where does this VST really excel?)

Because for the most part I am happy with my beats, bass and FX, the thing that I now always look for (in hardware and VST) is a filter section that can do really smooth, clean sweeps for this type of pad/pluck sound I'm after... it is the one part of my sound palatte that is lacking. With the VST's I mentioned the result is always some aliasing, distorted artifacts etc. as I said in the OP. And I'm not just talking about presets, I have tried programming each of those extensively. IMO without FX they sound very messy. - if you know of a VST I'm missing or one that you think is in fact capable of these "clean" pad/pluck filter sweeps, please by all means save me some headache and cash and tell me!! I'll certainly give it a go.

The only synth that I have ever been able to hands on achieve this sound I am trying to create is with the Nord Lead 2x, which unfortunately, I had sell when I moved abroad. The reason I have not gone back to Nord is that I found it too limiting in the sounds I could create and the workflow a bit tedious...actually, very tedious. It could do a lot of sounds really good for sure, but it took a lot of programming to get there. To me it was great with some lead sounds and some pad/pluck sounds, FX and that is it. Price vs usage just doesn't justify buying another one. Spending a couple of hours everyday (Nord) trying to create a sound when something else (Virus!?) can dial it in in a matter of minutes and ITB, well, that to me is a better workflow.

The latency, TI, USB issues you spoke of, many say these are things of the past and have been fixed in recent OS updates? BTW I'm running a dedicated PC DAW -XP Pro SP2/Ableton Live 7 (latest update) if that makes any difference.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by 12341234

Thanks for your feedback. I have indeed read many threads here and on other forums, watched every video I can find, all of which seem to be a mixed bag of people either loving or hating the Virus... some say it works flawlessly and the sound is bar none the best, some say its total rubbish with all sorts of glitches and VST's can match the quality etc. Personally, I have never hands on tried a Virus so I do not know for sure. What I have heard in a few pro studio demos are some really fantastic pads and filter morphing (+ just about everything else imaginable)... which is why I am now on the hunt for a Virus. As I said, I own or have tried all of the latest "top" suggested VST's such as the various U-He models (which are quite good for some sounds no doubt), Sylenth (again good for some), Nexus, Korg Legacy, Omnisphere/Trilogy, Arturia, Dune and so on... all are good for some things, but none good for all. - I have not tried Synthmaster though, IYO where does this VST really excel?)

Synthmaster is semi-modular, which means it can cover a really wide spectrum of sounds (similar to Zebra2) at the expense of having a bit more learning involved to fully master it. These types of synths are just more flexible than most of what's available in the hardware world. So, technically they can excel in all areas. What fast-tracked my love for Synthmaster was listening to some of the Rob Lee patches (I think there are four sound banks available from him total), and he really has a grasp on the kinds of sounds I originally wanted out of the Virus. You can listen to demos of some of those patches as soundcloud files from the Synthmaster website.

Originally Posted by 12341234

Because for the most part I am happy with my beats, bass and FX, the thing that I now always look for (in hardware and VST) is a filter section that can do really smooth, clean sweeps for this type of pad/pluck sound I'm after... it is the one part of my sound palatte that is lacking. With the VST's I mentioned the result is always some aliasing, distorted artifacts etc. as I said in the OP. And I'm not just talking about presets, I have tried programming each of those extensively. IMO without FX they sound very messy. - if you know of a VST I'm missing or one that you think is in fact capable of these "clean" pad/pluck filter sweeps, please by all means save me some headache and cash and tell me!! I'll certainly give it a go.

It may come down to what kinds of sounds you want to achieve, but while I do find that FX are a very important part of patch creation (for the types of sounds I want), I found this to be true of the Virus too, and of course sometimes FX are more processor intensive than the sound.

Originally Posted by 12341234

The only synth that I have ever been able to hands on achieve this sound I am trying to create is with the Nord Lead 2x, which unfortunately, I had sell when I moved abroad. The reason I have not gone back to Nord is that I found it too limiting in the sounds I could create and the workflow a bit tedious...actually, very tedious. It could do a lot of sounds really good for sure, but it took a lot of programming to get there. To me it was great with some lead sounds and some pad/pluck sounds, FX and that is it. Price vs usage just doesn't justify buying another one. Spending a couple of hours everyday (Nord) trying to create a sound when something else (Virus!?) can dial it in in a matter of minutes and ITB, well, that to me is a better workflow.

I find all hardware synths have a certain sound profile, limiting their use... their flexibility is often defined by what can be achieved from the surface controls... these controls are like gold for tweaking or live play, but don't really offer the kind of flexibility of some VSTs. I guess most VSTs, individually, probably also have a similar sound profile, the exceptions being ones like Zebra2 / Synthmaster where the possibilities are so varied that the human ear wouldn't be able to pick up the profile or limit, if there even is one.
And yes, price plays a big part in it all. Given unlimited funds, space and time, maybe I'd have lots of hardware boards and not mess with softsynths at all? It's hard to imagine getting the same workflow productivity as an all software environment, just based on my experience with hardware synths.

Originally Posted by 12341234

The latency, TI, USB issues you spoke of, many say these are things of the past and have been fixed in recent OS updates? BTW I'm running a dedicated PC DAW -XP Pro SP2/Ableton Live 7 (latest update) if that makes any difference.

Well I got my Virus right around the time they (Access) introduced a 64bit driver for Windows, and I'm not sure how far things have come since then. I came to the conclusion the lack of the Virus' capability to fully utilize the bandwidth available in USB 2.0 was part of the problem, so I just decided to sit tight and see what their next product line up would consist of (seems like that's ages ago, and no sign of progress). I keep an eye on this board and elsewhere and I have not seen much good said about their software integration or any major improvements being made. I think the consensus is Access makes great sounding hardware but has yet to get their act together on software. I have seen some folks with certain setups say they have very few issues, I just couldn't tell you what their specific set ups are.

[12341234]

Originally Posted by MBTC

Synthmaster is semi-modular, which means it can cover a really wide spectrum of sounds (similar to Zebra2) at the expense of having a bit more learning involved to fully master it. These types of synths are just more flexible than most of what's available in the hardware world. So, technically they can excel in all areas. What fast-tracked my love for Synthmaster was listening to some of the Rob Lee patches (I think there are four sound banks available from him total), and he really has a grasp on the kinds of sounds I originally wanted out of the Virus. You can listen to demos of some of those patches as soundcloud files from the Synthmaster website.



It may come down to what kinds of sounds you want to achieve, but while I do find that FX are a very important part of patch creation (for the types of sounds I want), I found this to be true of the Virus too, and of course sometimes FX are more processor intensive than the sound.



I find all hardware synths have a certain sound profile, limiting their use... their flexibility is often defined by what can be achieved from the surface controls... these controls are like gold for tweaking or live play, but don't really offer the kind of flexibility of some VSTs. I guess most VSTs, individually, probably also have a similar sound profile, the exceptions being ones like Zebra2 / Synthmaster where the possibilities are so varied that the human ear wouldn't be able to pick up the profile or limit, if there even is one.
And yes, price plays a big part in it all. Given unlimited funds, space and time, maybe I'd have lots of hardware boards and not mess with softsynths at all? It's hard to imagine getting the same workflow productivity as an all software environment, just based on my experience with hardware synths.



Well I got my Virus right around the time they (Access) introduced a 64bit driver for Windows, and I'm not sure how far things have come since then. I came to the conclusion the lack of the Virus' capability to fully utilize the bandwidth available in USB 2.0 was part of the problem, so I just decided to sit tight and see what their next product line up would consist of (seems like that's ages ago, and no sign of progress). I keep an eye on this board and elsewhere and I have not seen much good said about their software integration or any major improvements being made. I think the consensus is Access makes great sounding hardware but has yet to get their act together on software. I have seen some folks with certain setups say they have very few issues, I just couldn't tell you what their specific set ups are.

Very helpful information, thanks again. Yes, I checked out (still listening now) the Synthmaster site and am quite impressed with some of the sounds in the "Factory - Big Tone - Synthmaster 2.5" demo clip. Definitely worth trying out - cheers for the tip!

Yeah, I agree with all that you said about hardware... I still use some analog mainly for essential bass tones and such, but was thinking that the Virus would get me the last bit of sounds I'm after (and more), give me ITB control as well as a little hands on tweaking if/when I want it. -- Damn, this next "Factory.." demo is also quite good! I'm going to try out this Synthmaster for a day or two and see how it gels with my setup and flow -- I'm still leaning towards a Virus, I've at least got to find out for myself if this thing is really ALL THAT.. that is, if one comes along at a fair price. And hey, if I hate it I can always sell it quickly for the same price init

[MarPabl]

Originally Posted by 12341234

If I get tired of waiting and decide to go ahead and buy new, considering that the Snow will play all of these soundsets, wondering, for someone who wants to work ITB as much as possible, does anyone who has owned a Snow and then upgraded to the Desktop model think its really worth the extra coin/regret it?

Considering the type of sounds you need, I think the only issue you may have is the lack of knobs for realtime tweaking. If you'll work mostly with a DAW, it's fine. If you need live performance and you want to do many adjustments, it's more difficult on the Snow.

Considering that the Virus TI Desktop (first version) is usually sold at a price for a new Snow, maybe that's a pretty interesting option to consider

[12341234]

Originally Posted by MarPabl

Considering the type of sounds you need, I think the only issue you may have is the lack of knobs for realtime tweaking. If you'll work mostly with a DAW, it's fine. If you need live performance and you want to do many adjustments, it's more difficult on the Snow.

Considering that the Virus TI Desktop (first version) is usually sold at a price for a new Snow, maybe that's a pretty interesting option to consider

Yeah, I wont be using this live at all, strictly studio work.

I agree. From all of the reading and demos I already decided that the TI2 additional features aren't enough for me to go all in for a new Desktop. I'm on the hunt for either a Used Snow, Desktop TI or a new Snow if all else fails. Unless of course I find something else that'll do the job while waiting around...

[MarPabl]

Originally Posted by 12341234

Yeah, I wont be using this live at all, strictly studio work.

I agree. From all of the reading and demos I already decided that the TI2 additional features aren't enough for me to go all in for a new Desktop. I'm on the hunt for either a Used Snow, Desktop TI or a new Snow if all else fails. Unless of course I find something else that'll do the job while waiting around...

Considering the budget assigned to those choices, the best option is a Virus TI Desktop (first generation), even the Virus TI Keyboard (fist generation) can be appealing.

[enossified]

The biggest advantage of the desktop is the knobs for programming. Deep programming requires menu diving on both. If you don't mind programming on your computer screen, then polyphony is the major difference between the Snow and desktop.

The Virus Control plugin only supports three stereo/six mono audio feeds so the 16 parts of the desktop are less useful for ITB use anyway. You can always freeze tracks in Live if you need more polyphony or parts.

I don't know what computer you have, but for me VC inside Live on a MacBook Pro with Snow Leopard works great, I have no problems with latency, clocking or crackling.

[AndrewM]

Keep an eye on MusiciansFriend.com ... they usually get returns that are in pretty good shape. ...And they always have some sorta coupon 15% off and free shipping. That's how I got my a few years back. Under 900 bucks and it still had the plastic film over the screen. Not sure if 'used' gear applies for the discounts anymore, but I'm sure if you called them and talked with them they'd cut you a deal.

[12341234]

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

It seems that the Snow will fulfill my needs.. but its really down to what I can find second hand. I'm not sure if Musicians Friend will ship to my location, I emailed support.. they have 15% off right now with free shipping so that might be a decent deal. There aren't any stores locally, well there are a few distributors selling online, but their prices are jacked up like an additional 30%!! Crazy. So it seems that I have to stick with Ebay.. but I'm also wondering about the power supply, the USA is different than here -220v in Asia where I'm currently located. Sent an email to Access, so we'll see what they have to say.

[feedingear]

The power supply for the TI is universal so you can gig it anywhere. Just get the appropriate converter for the cable from any hobby/electrical shop. I run a US TI in Australia and have never had a problem.