Quantized notes sound un-quantized

[seantyas]

had the virus ti a while now but only starting to really try to use it more.. and more and more i notice, that when i play, say straight 8th notes OR 16th notes, its not exact 16th notes.. the note timing is 100% ALL OVER the place.

I have the latest os 2.5.1 and am running on logic 7.2.3 on a mac pro.

anyone else experiencing this?

[IlMolto]

Hey,

How badly is your Virus out of time? I have a Virus C and have been experiencing the same thing. MIDI playback is a little sloppy with a noticeable delay...

Only difference is I'm using Cubase 4.1.

[IlMolto]

By the way if you're really Sean Tyas, I love your work ;)

[seantyas]

hahhaha yep its me :) THANK you man!!!

i am debating to try this beta 5 os

[Timo]

The latest beta is appearing to get a lot of thumbs up.

I think Access will release a final release soon.

[marc]

had the virus ti a while now but only starting to really try to use it more.. and more and more i notice, that when i play, say straight 8th notes OR 16th notes, its not exact 16th notes.. the note timing is 100% ALL OVER the place.

I have the latest os 2.5.1 and am running on logic 7.2.3 on a mac pro.

anyone else experiencing this?

if you use Virus Control something goes wrong, the timing is supposed to be "perfect" since all the notes are time stamped and not arrive in a sequential fashion like it would using midi.

i'm not sure if logic 7 and the newer mac pros are good friends, all i know is that the new 8 cores are a challenge for most developers of realtime applications (which would include virus control). so give beta 5 a try, it might help, from the top of my head we improved several things which will only show their ugly face on multi-core systems.

hth, marc

[seantyas]

ok check out the attached mp3...

each pluck is just 2 notes, PERFECTLY quantized but sounds like its played live

http://www.seantyasmusic.com/access

[paulkeeley]

i've had the same issue here - i use my virus primarily in standalone midi mode, as i can't stand to work with even the slightest bit of latency.

i've taken the issue up with access support in the past. the issue seems to be when i'm using complex patches (anything but standard saw/pulse).

i tried a comparison test with a dry unfiltered sawtooth, and the timing was rock solid. i then tried some hypersaw, and the timing went completely off.

so, long story short - if any of the oscillators in a patch are set to anything but "classic", you can say bye-bye to timing. i'm not sure if this is the same case for the C line or earlier, but it has driven me to the brink of insanity on many occasions.

what i usually end up doing is layering a vst-i with similar settings (where applicable) underneath the virus to thicken things up and ensure that at least something is playing back spot-on cue. seems to work well enough. still frustrating, especially since my nord wave is bang on all the time. different architecture, obviously, but bad timing is not something you'd expect in a high-end piece of gear.

hope that helps. happy head-bashing!

paul.

[Totty]

I've been having the very same issue on my TI Polar - latest OS 2.7.5 OSX 10.5.5 8 Core Mac Pro Logic 8.02.

If i fire off complex patches or patches that have very quick modulations on attack, or if there is a monophonic lfo cycling a parameter such as formant or filter env depth - things start to sound wrong. The envelopes skip the attack and the modulations go awry....

[synthfiend]

if what you guys say is true I'm going to be V disappointed, one of the main reasons I outlayed all this money for a hardware synth was to avoid bad timing.....

[Totty]

if what you guys say is true I'm going to be V disappointed, one of the main reasons I outlayed all this money for a hardware synth was to avoid bad timing.....

Depends how you use it I suppose. I've come to the conclusion it may never work right - maybe TI 2.

[Monobeat]

That's too bad because my Virus TI is always out of time... I love the sound, I HATE the timing.

Especially when I output my Arp notes.... The notes are 100% all over the place, they never sit in the same place twice.

I still love my Virus.

[Totty]

That's too bad because my Virus TI is always out of time... I love the sound, I HATE the timing.

Especially when I output my Arp notes.... The notes are 100% all over the place, they never sit in the same place twice.

I still love my Virus.

I know exactly how you feel, amazing synth that has issues. With me I don't often use that many parts so I suppose I don't push the VC/Synth integration too much, but the other day I made this Chord Arp, Very simple single modulation of the formant shift on one osc, lfo was set to monophonic. When I played it back in standalone mode sounded great, cycling up and down. In Logic and VC the playback turned the modulation into a random event. Very frustrating. The hope was that sometimes it did work ok, so I'm thinking maybe it's Logic, but I don't know.

I also find if I use the filter env to modulate the filter env decay (ie:recursive modulation) that If I play a couple of notes it sounds really great with a tight attack. If I add another part the attack portion randomly skips it's decay.

In a way it reminds me of my old Roland JV2080. Sounded great on it's own, start sequencing with it, and all sorts of timing delays and envelope problems came to show.

I love my TI to bits, I hope there will be a fix

Mike

[paulkeeley]

this thread has inspired me to take another stab at virus support. i set up an ableton test project with an 8th note quantized 4-note chord rhythm and ran through each oscillator type while recording to audio.

i ended up sending them the ableton project and the patch in question. here's hoping they'll be able to replicate it and sort it out. if they can, it'll be like having a brand new synth that i could use anywhere in the mix, instead of just for pads/effects/etc as it is now.

[oblivion]

Wow! this is serious problems, I was going to buy a Snow or Desktop very soon but now I am not so sure about it anymore.

It may be so Access have to little horsepower in the Virus TI??? that is what I think.

Are there any user who use it professional in Studio without sync problems?

SERIOUS!!!!

[Totty]

Wow! this is serious problems, I was going to buy a Snow or Desktop very soon but now I am not so sure about it anymore.

It may be so Access have to little horsepower in the Virus TI??? that is what I think.

Are there any user who use it professional in Studio without sync problems?

SERIOUS!!!!

Well yes I think it's serious, everytime I mention it I don't really get alot of feedback, either I'm imagining it, or people generally haven't noticed it (I find that hard to believe) or it's an unmentionable wall of silence:confused:

I've never meant trouble by posting issues, sometimes I question whether I have, but I can categorically say I have noticed several issues which I perceive to be DSP power related and although I'm no engineer I feel I am correct on this one.

The other thing I've just thought of, when I had my Indigo2 (before I drowned it in wine and got an Insurance payout - for once in my life luck was on my side and I got a TI as a result) I programmed some sounds using the Moog filter in self oscilation. On the Indigo it used to make a great kick. On the TI, it looses the attack for about 5 keypresses and then starts to play back if you play back multiple keys in legato. I know these are probably rare sounds using the filter and envelope like this (including recursive modulation) I always found it disconcerting that the TI had problems playing those sounds exactly. Flame me if you like, but I'm sure there is a technical reason why..

I welcome people's comments!

[oblivion]

Is it better when using the TI with just MIDI or is it the same?

How many tracks before it cracks up?

Wery important questions for me, so please I need your opinions.

Anybody whithout quantize problems?

[Totty]

Is it better when using the TI with just MIDI or is it the same?

How many tracks before it cracks up?

Wery important questions for me, so please I need your opinions.

Anybody whithout quantize problems?

Well I don't use it with midi, never really have to be honest. I can perceive modulation going awry with 3 tracks running. If I recall one had 2xUnison, and the other has the formant modulation I've mentioned. This is on a TI Polar.

[paulkeeley]

in my experience, it's the same regardless if i'm using MIDI or the TI plug-in. definitely an issue with the synth's dsp as near as i can tell. realistically i can use 2-3 patches in a multi with reasonable polyphony (12-note max) before things get really out of whack.

however, even using single patches, there is a definite internal timing problem. still in the process of sorting it out with support. they've been unable to recreate the issue on their end and suggested it was due to my set-up, but i've tested it with all of my possible midi interfaces (usb and firewire) with the exact same results.

so i'm thinking it's either to do with a hardware batch being flawed, or they're turning a blind eye. i'm very much hoping it's the former, as long as it's fixable. i just want to be able to reliably use my synth instead of having to mask it in the mix.

[paulkeeley]

btw, if anyone is interested, here's the test project i put together in Ableton Live 7 along with the single patch in sysex format:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ef20fe4090a9461fd2db6fb9a8902bda

for each test, i simply changed the oscillator type of OSC1. in the recorded audio you'll notice how OSC1 drifts out of time from OSC2 (which is just a simple classic sawtooth).

i'd be very interested to know if any of you experience the same thing with your synths.

cheers,
paul.

[Totty]

btw, if anyone is interested, here's the test project i put together in Ableton Live 7 along with the single patch in sysex format:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ef20fe4090a9461fd2db6fb9a8902bda

for each test, i simply changed the oscillator type of OSC1. in the recorded audio you'll notice how OSC1 drifts out of time from OSC2 (which is just a simple classic sawtooth).

i'd be very interested to know if any of you experience the same thing with your synths.

cheers,
paul.

Hi Paul,

I had a listen. I can hear from your audio what you are saying. I'm more logic based and I set up a similar test using your patch. With just those 4 chords and changing oscillators I have to say it sounded more accurate than your file... Was this played originally in VC or via midi?

[oblivion]

Totty! do you have Mac or do you have the old Logic for PC?

Can you please test the Virus TI with MIDI?

Thanks!

I shurley hope that the TI performs better with Mac and Logic Pro? if not, it is bad horsepower=old horses it may be!?

[paulkeeley]

Hi Paul,

I had a listen. I can hear from your audio what you are saying. I'm more logic based and I set up a similar test using your patch. With just those 4 chords and changing oscillators I have to say it sounded more accurate than your file... Was this played originally in VC or via midi?

thanks for giving this a go Totty - i haven't tried the test yet in Logic - i assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the MIDI timing between Ableton and Logic would be the same - i'm predominantly a Logic user myself.

i recorded the notes in realtime and then quantized them to 16th notes within Ableton. i'm running an iMac C2D 2.16ghz so horsepower shouldn't be an issue there.

i'll give it a shot tonight within Logic and see if that makes any difference whatsoever.

cheers,
Paul.

[paulkeeley]

ok, i tried the exact same MIDI clip in Logic 8, and i'm still getting the same note drift.

here's the Logic project if anyone's interested in trying it out further:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=991632b3312483dfd2db6fb9a8902bda

cheers,
Paul.

[paulkeeley]

aaaaaaand since i clearly haven't posted enough today on this topic, i've made a bit of a breakthrough.

in VC mode, everything is rock solid. it's only in MIDI standalone mode where the timing goes to hell and back. again, no problems with my other synths whatsoever using the same MIDI interface(s), cables, etc.

so, it must simply be the way the TI is handling MIDI input info. or at least that seems to be the case with mine.

hope this helps in any way, however insignificant.

cheers,
Paul.

[Totty]

Totty! do you have Mac or do you have the old Logic for PC?

Can you please test the Virus TI with MIDI?

Thanks!

I shurley hope that the TI performs better with Mac and Logic Pro? if not, it is bad horsepower=old horses it may be!?

Hi Oblivion, I'm on a Mac with the latest OS on Osx and VC and Logic 8.02.

I think Paul has just answered the issue below, it seems midi timing is worse - which it should be as the VC is supposed to be sample accurate.

[Totty]

aaaaaaand since i clearly haven't posted enough today on this topic, i've made a bit of a breakthrough.

in VC mode, everything is rock solid. it's only in MIDI standalone mode where the timing goes to hell and back. again, no problems with my other synths whatsoever using the same MIDI interface(s), cables, etc.

so, it must simply be the way the TI is handling MIDI input info. or at least that seems to be the case with mine.

hope this helps in any way, however insignificant.

cheers,
Paul.

Hi Paul, sounds like you have made a breakthrough:) I'm downloading your Logic file and will have a go here too. From what I know the VC timestamps midi events so the timing should be accurate on VC, However as you say, your other midi synths don't exhibit this problem.

I will also try a midi connection to my TI, may take me a few days as I'm set up very minimally at the moment, so I'll have to dust off my AMT8 and Motu in the attic:)

Best regards

Michael

[oblivion]

Very interesting thread!

I hope Access is reading this.

[Totty]

Yes it is! I'm conscious that there may be 2 separate issues are here.

1: The Midi Timing of the Virus TI as a standalone midi Synth.
2: The issue I mentioned regarding heavy patches and fast modulation/envelopes tripping up the sound.

I'm inclined to think they may be one of the same. I'm speculating here but if there are DSP resource issues as a standard midi synth this could be alleviated to an extent by loosening the sound reaction time so that lots of notes don't start exactly together. I know midi is a serial protocol and no 2 notes can sound exactly together, but by reducing reaction time would give the hardware more processing time (not good!).

With Virus Control the data has to appear out sample accurately apparently. This would disallow the theory above, but since I have experienced these modulation and envelope discrepancies, that could also be as a result of DSP resources lacking.

I'm happy to be proven wrong - in fact I hope I'm wrong, because as it stands I don't feel I can make a complex sound and have it play back correctly unless I'm using only one channel.

[paulkeeley]

hey all - once again, another development on my end. with the patch in question, running in MIDI standalone mode, i noticed that if i adjust the amplifier envelope release time to 20, where there is no note overlap, the timing is relatively tight. not as tight as VC mode, but much tighter than before. however when i bump it up to 36, where there is slight note overlap, the timing goes awry. yet another clue that it may be the way the virus is handling note information and note stealing.

i've sent this latest development to Access support. hopefully they can shed some light on the subject. if anyone has a chance to try the same out on their setup it would be greatly appreciated. if this isn't just an issue with my virus, then this is something hopefully Access can fix.

cheers,
Paul.

[oblivion]

Have you experienced any problem with ordinary patches = Bass, Trance sounds, strings and pads?

Hope there is only problem with complex patches.

[Totty]

Have you experienced any problem with ordinary patches = Bass, Trance sounds, strings and pads?

Hope there is only problem with complex patches.

Hi Oblivion,

It's really hard to quantify, the problem I suppose is originally you don't build things up thinking scientifically like we are now, and I'm sure no one here really does:-D. I've never used the TI VC all out as I've had other issues over the years and have just used it for one or 2 channels. As I said in a previous post I've really cut down my hardware - it's all still here upstairs but with my MacPro and the TI and sometimes the Blofeld I feel I have it all covered and alot more space:p

But as I've come to use the VC more, these niggles have surfaced and I'm still avoiding using it like I would like to. From memory standard patches with none of the more complex forms of synthesis are far more efficient than the others. This is no secret and Access say that polyphony drops alot with graintables and formant processing. I don't mind that at all, but I want what I do play to be played back with rock solid timing and not with random glitches in modulation or envelopes if I choose a more complex synthesis method.

Hope this explains a little better.

[synthfiend]

As a matter of interest Paul, when you are using the Virus in VC mode are you using the Virus as your sound card or are you using the sound card on your PC ?

Out of all the different ways you can route audio and midi with the TI I am starting to suspect from what I read and have experienced that you get the best performance (latency wise etc) when using VC with the TI as your sound card. Maybe wrong though :-D

[paulkeeley]

As a matter of interest Paul, when you are using the Virus in VC mode are you using the Virus as your sound card or are you using the sound card on your PC ?

Out of all the different ways you can route audio and midi with the TI I am starting to suspect from what I read and have experienced that you get the best performance (latency wise etc) when using VC with the TI as your sound card. Maybe wrong though :-D

i remember trying to use the TI as a soundcard when i first bought it (quite a while ago now) to see if it would solve the latency issue, but didn't notice any marked improvement over my existing audio interface. in fact if i recall correctly, i was getting worse latency when using the TI's audio. anyway, i pretty much dropped the idea then and there, since i have other external gear that i need to be able to record and much prefer to use my trusty FW410 for such things.

thanks for the suggestion though - definitely an option for those who are using their TI without any other external gear.

[oblivion]

Is it safe to use it with just five or six channels and ordinary subtractive synthesis+arpeggios and lots of fx?

I want it badly because of its soundquality, but if it is useless as a multitimbral synth with sloppy timing I have to find an other synth.

Just interested of its subtractive synthesis, fx and arpeggios, dont care about the other synthesis in the Virus TI.

I hope that you have the answer?

Thanks!

[Totty]

Is it safe to use it with just five or six channels and ordinary subtractive synthesis+arpeggios and lots of fx?

I want it badly because of its soundquality, but if it is useless as a multitimbral synth with sloppy timing I have to find an other synth.

Just interested of its subtractive synthesis, fx and arpeggios, dont care about the other synthesis in the Virus TI.

I hope that you have the answer?

Thanks!

Hi Oblivion,

I reckon you'll be ok (don't hold me to it!) If you keep on the standard waveforms and use just effects I believe with VC it will work ok.

[Totty]

i remember trying to use the TI as a soundcard when i first bought it (quite a while ago now) to see if it would solve the latency issue, but didn't notice any marked improvement over my existing audio interface. in fact if i recall correctly, i was getting worse latency when using the TI's audio. anyway, i pretty much dropped the idea then and there, since i have other external gear that i need to be able to record and much prefer to use my trusty FW410 for such things.

thanks for the suggestion though - definitely an option for those who are using their TI without any other external gear.

Hi Paul,

I found that using my 828mk2 as the main interface and piping the TI through USB sounds slightly more latency than direct through the TI's Audio interface!! Don't know why - it's almost negligible though.

I've PM'd you Paul with a test I'd like you to run if you have time.

Kind rgrds

Mike

[paulkeeley]

Is it safe to use it with just five or six channels and ordinary subtractive synthesis+arpeggios and lots of fx?

I want it badly because of its soundquality, but if it is useless as a multitimbral synth with sloppy timing I have to find an other synth.

Just interested of its subtractive synthesis, fx and arpeggios, dont care about the other synthesis in the Virus TI.

I hope that you have the answer?

Thanks!

i've only having major note timing problems in MIDI standalone mode. so, if you're content only using the synth as a plug-in (with some latency), then you'll be relatively ok on that front, as long as you keep your voice count low. i would say you'd be safe running 2-3 patches with low polyphony/complexity at once. anything above that, and you're asking for trouble. adding big reverbs and long feedback delays will also take a fair chunk of available DSP power, further limiting what you can realistically pull off.

this is specific to the TI Desktop/KB/Polar. if you're thinking about a Snow, then you can cut the performance by half, as it's got half the DSP power as the Desktop/KB/Polar.

cheers,
Paul.

[oblivion]

Thanks! paulkeeley!

[seantyas]

access wrote me trying to weasle out of this.

"This "smearing" is what we have designed it to do"
oh man what a joke.

[Totty]

access wrote me trying to weasle out of this.

"This "smearing" is what we have designed it to do"
oh man what a joke.

That sounds very odd, designed to do? :confused:

[grs]

People with this timiming in VC mode try to avoid USB1, or Analog1.
I've had good success doing this, also mooving a bad patch to another part. Then filling the part with INIT patch.
Also set any unused parts to anything not USB1 or Analog1.
I know the timiming isues scince virus b. and now use OS3 TI desktop.

[incubatid]

access wrote me trying to weasle out of this.

"This "smearing" is what we have designed it to do"
oh man what a joke.WTF Access?! :rolleyes:

[paulkeeley]

it's a feature, not a bug!

hmm....i disagree, Access.

incidentally, i still haven't heard back from Access support regarding my specific timing issue. last i heard from them, they said they'd get back to me as soon as winter namm had concluded. so either that means they're going "lalalalala i can't hear you" or they've actually found something and are looking into it further.

i'm guessing OS3 is giving them more trouble than anticipated.

[seantyas]

hey whoever posted that logic session with the different bounces in it. I just tested your sequence but being played back not by midi, but by the VC

and timing is attrocious... BUT

The one thing i notice... timing is ONLY affected when you are using UNISON modes.

will this shed any light as to what is going on...

[seantyas]

aaaaaaand since i clearly haven't posted enough today on this topic, i've made a bit of a breakthrough.

in VC mode, everything is rock solid. it's only in MIDI standalone mode where the timing goes to hell and back. again, no problems with my other synths whatsoever using the same MIDI interface(s), cables, etc.

so, it must simply be the way the TI is handling MIDI input info. or at least that seems to be the case with mine.

hope this helps in any way, however insignificant.

cheers,
Paul.

odd that ur problem only occurs in midi mode.. mine is both present in VC AND midi modes, also present whether i use TI as my interface OR my m-audio, ALSO when i use analog outs (all outs).

BUT here is one interesting tidbit... DOESNT happen for me in ableton. plays PERFECT there. Something is up with the connecttion btwn logic to leopard or logic to VC or both.

[paulkeeley]

odd that ur problem only occurs in midi mode.. mine is both present in VC AND midi modes, also present whether i use TI as my interface OR my m-audio, ALSO when i use analog outs (all outs).

BUT here is one interesting tidbit... DOESNT happen for me in ableton. plays PERFECT there. Something is up with the connecttion btwn logic to leopard or logic to VC or both.

hmm very interesting, however i seem to recall having the same issues when testing with ableton (live 7) as when testing with logic. i'm still running OS 10.4.11 though. again, it's odd that only the TI seems affected, as every single other piece of outboard gear doesn't exhibit this erratic behavior.

also i should note that i haven't been taking unison mode into account - i know that completely destroys the timing (which is i guess kind of the point). what i'm talking about is just the raw sounds in MIDI mode. the timing discrepancy isn't as drastic as with unison engaged, but it's most definitely still there for me.

regardless, thanks for testing and for your insight!

[seantyas]

Unison shouldnt destroy timing at all, as a hardcore user of this facility in, Vstation, es2, NI Massive, and quite a few others, unison mode never affects a patch's ability to play 3-4 note chords extremely tightly.

unison is no excuse for a synth to act badly ESPECIALLY when its the only part of 16 parts loaded ;)

[seantyas]

Okay I have uploaded a logic session to www.seantyasmusic.com/testfoldervirus

Anyone who uses logic 8 with a virus TI, PLEASE download, unzip, run this session and just literally bounce this exactly to a 192 kbps (Realtime bounce obviously).

I am compiling an already 7+ user complaint. but would be good to get about 10-15 people who ALL have this problem.. That kind of thing can not be ignored or denied. This is bullshit. Regardless as to if the problem is Logic's or the Virus', it's Access responsibility to make sure it works correctly.

[paulkeeley]

Okay I have uploaded a logic session to www.seantyasmusic.com/testfoldervirus (http://www.seantyasmusic.com/testfoldervirus)

Anyone who uses logic 8 with a virus TI, PLEASE download, unzip, run this session and just literally bounce this exactly to a 192 kbps (Realtime bounce obviously).

i'm guessing you would prefer if we ran the Virus in VC mode? i can also do a MIDI standalone bounce if you like.

[Totty]

Hi Paul, I've just seen this, I will download tomorrow and look.

You're right about Unison, but I fear that Unison in the Virus works differently than in soft synths. I still feel it is all to do with resources. The Virus has a finite amount of resource (like everything) and it is being asked to produce too many notes than the dsp is confortable with. I think that Access are optimising the code to the limit, and as a result certain circumstances are causing problems. I have read that the TI 2 still has issues, which is good and bad. Good that we haven't been hung out to dry as the earlier adopters, but bad that problems still remain.

Incidentally, did you ever get a response from Access Support??

Regards

Mike

[seantyas]

either way u want, just label your file if is a midi bounce or VC.. ive got 4 people so far that have duplicate problems, each on a slightly different mac. All Logic 8 though.

[synthfiend]

heh Sean
saw your set at the Sydney Trance Energy the other week, early in the morning. Very nice set.......At one point you were playing some killer tune which sounded like it was not much more than a 4x4 kick but with a solid rhythm/groove to it. Like to know how to get that sound.

[paulkeeley]

hey Sean, just sent you a PM with the tests. still having the same MIDI timing issues as before. VC mode works relatively fine, unison mode issues notwithstanding.

good luck with access support on this one. maybe when i have more time i'll try again with support, although they've brushed me off consistently. not very encouraging.

[seantyas]

Hi Paul, I've just seen this, I will download tomorrow and look.

You're right about Unison, but I fear that Unison in the Virus works differently than in soft synths. I still feel it is all to do with resources. The Virus has a finite amount of resource (like everything) and it is being asked to produce too many notes than the dsp is confortable with. I think that Access are optimising the code to the limit, and as a result certain circumstances are causing problems. I have read that the TI 2 still has issues, which is good and bad. Good that we haven't been hung out to dry as the earlier adopters, but bad that problems still remain.

Incidentally, did you ever get a response from Access Support??

Regards

Mike

no response STILL which is starting to look fishy.... and its definitely not a dsp issue, for two reasons: 1) this problem is not occuring in Ableton, the same midi pattern plays back 100% rock solid and tight and 2) it happens even when the VC is the only thing loaded up in my virus session with just 1 part being used. If I can cause a dsp overload with a 3 note chord on 1 part, I demand every penny back from access for making such a joke of a product, when they were bragging upon release about the massive amount of dsp in there.

[seantyas]

heh Sean
saw your set at the Sydney Trance Energy the other week, early in the morning. Very nice set.......At one point you were playing some killer tune which sounded like it was not much more than a 4x4 kick but with a solid rhythm/groove to it. Like to know how to get that sound.

HAHHA wow it's really rare to bump into people into the scene on tech forums! cool! I think the track u mentioned is my new one called Rulebook. Its up in my myspace player: www.myspace.com/seantyas

Let me know if that's the sound you mean.

[seantyas]

FINALLY got some response from access after sending him examples of 5 different systems results, all with same problem, lets hope this problem is even POSSIBLE to fix:


"
Dear Sean,
Our R&D department is investigating this ongoing right now.
I also will take another look on the latest files you sent at the 25th. I'm a bit smashed with work therefore I'm sorry for the late response.

I can't really tell more at the very moment.
"
So guys, let's wait and see, maybe it can be fixed :)

[paulkeeley]

interesting, i have also finally had word back from support (after having to contact them yet again 4 months later). Joerg has been able to reproduce the MIDI timing issue using the USB port, which is great news, as it rules out any possibility of it being at all related to any of my MIDI interfaces.

now, as you say Sean, we wait and see. the last time i contacted support, the R&D people were conveniently unable to reproduce the issue. however, now that Joerg has been successful, i'm hoping we'll see some real progress soon. or, at the very least have a definitive answer one way or another. i'm crossing my fingers.

[seantyas]

If it ends up unfixable, consider my TI for sale... I basically bought the TI to take the strain off my computer for sounds... if it cant even handle 1 part, its a joke.

Not a fan of how they marketed this a DSP "monster", I have more dsp on my iphone :)

interesting, i have also finally had word back from support (after having to contact them yet again 4 months later). Joerg has been able to reproduce the MIDI timing issue using the USB port, which is great news, as it rules out any possibility of it being at all related to any of my MIDI interfaces.

now, as you say Sean, we wait and see. the last time i contacted support, the R&D people were conveniently unable to reproduce the issue. however, now that Joerg has been successful, i'm hoping we'll see some real progress soon. or, at the very least have a definitive answer one way or another. i'm crossing my fingers.

[annikk.exe]

There is actually quite a bit of DSP power in a Virus.
Lets keep this in perspective guys, this is clearly a bug and not intended behaviour for the synth.
I am sure Access will come through for you. :>


-Annikk

[paulkeeley]

yes, i agree it is a powerful synth. however, it's frustrating that with all this power, it definitely does noticeably seem strained when performing the tasks it has been supposedly designed to do, at least if one is to believe the marketing/press material. as a result, one does certainly get the impression that the synth is underpowered. simply put, if it can't do what Access says it can do, then we as consumers have every right to hold them to it.

another hugely frustrating thing is having to deal with the back and forth and "lost" tickets with support over the past 6+ months. yes, it's great that they are very personal, and do offer a good bit of insight, but i'm sure i'm not the only one who feels like this has been an ongoing beta-testing procedure since i bought the synth. definitely not something you expect when you plunk down the cash for a pro piece of gear.

i'm done ranting for today. still hoping for some semi-swift resolution, and not another months-long support blackout.

[seantyas]

yes, i agree it is a powerful synth. however, it's frustrating that with all this power, it definitely does noticeably seem strained when performing the tasks it has been supposedly designed to do, at least if one is to believe the marketing/press material. as a result, one does certainly get the impression that the synth is underpowered. simply put, if it can't do what Access says it can do, then we as consumers have every right to hold them to it.

another hugely frustrating thing is having to deal with the back and forth and "lost" tickets with support over the past 6+ months. yes, it's great that they are very personal, and do offer a good bit of insight, but i'm sure i'm not the only one who feels like this has been an ongoing beta-testing procedure since i bought the synth. definitely not something you expect when you plunk down the cash for a pro piece of gear.

i'm done ranting for today. still hoping for some semi-swift resolution, and not another months-long support blackout.


Nah man You are more than entitled to rant. My TI Keyboard was 2800 friggin swiss franks, like 2500 USD or so. I feel absolutely raped by a product that still shoes issues 3 years after product launch.

In any future gear interviews I do, I will never say a nice thing about the practicality of the TI.

[seantyas]

Well, new OS version today 3.0.1.15

Testing now....
Fingers Crossed....

INstalling... OS updating...
I get excited each and every OS release thinking they actually took time for this issue... trust me I doubt its fixed.

Just checking the OS log update pdf this is HILARIOUS:
"3.0.1.15 is a maintenance release and is recommended for every Virus TI owner. Audio side chaining is currently not supported in Steinberg Cubase.
The VST3 version shouldn't be used in a productive environment. "

Nor should the AU version if you're doing anything remotely more than SIMPLE apparently.

Still updating, im sure you all know the drill. Ah, finally, Restarting.

Well, it's still basically the same problem.... any 3-note pluck or stab at more than 4 voice unison... and ur timing is out the window... Some notes early some late.
Here is the result, for those that don't hear a problem, listen for the sort of "strumming" effect on some of the chords. These notes arent strummed in the programming. all chords drawin in to PERFECT quantizing, and same exact note lenghts
http://www.seantyasmusic.com/access/UnacceptableJoke.mp3

Once again, I do wonder what their r&d is doing.

[feedingear]

Yeah thats pretty unacceptable. I havent noticed any of those issues using VC but I am not writing trancey chordal repetitive stuff like that. Any further response? Should keep at them and get some answers.

[seantyas]

Yeah thats pretty unacceptable. I havent noticed any of those issues using VC but I am not writing trancey chordal repetitive stuff like that. Any further response? Should keep at them and get some answers.

I have only gotten that one from almost 2 weeks back I posted a few posts back. Will of course post up any further correspondence.

Hopefully waldorf largo, with its blofeld engine, can beat the Virus. Then I am more than happy to be rid of this thing.

NOTE EDIT:: Just tested beta OS 3.0.2 now as well.

NOPE! no fix still

[seantyas]

Anyone very familiar with the components used to make these??? My new thought is that.... possibly.... do you think they could have switched a component in the build process at some point?

I have , in the last 2 weeks, found 2 other friends (one using ableton and one with Logic 8), who are NOT showing signs of the problem.

This gets more interesting all the time.

Just like a PC or mac with problems that are excluded from another group's problems, that can point to an actual component differing from the rest.

Anyone else think theres a small chance this can be the reason?

[paulkeeley]

you might be on to something there Sean, although i have no idea how to determine if such is actually true. i'm a bit weary of posting serial #'s but i'd be very curious to see if there's some sort of correlation there.

incidentally, being that access support has (finally) been able to replicate my midi timing issue, i'm thinking that any previous inability to replicate is likely less of a hardware-revision issue and more of a case of them saying the equivalent of "lalala we can't hear you, you'll have to speak up". hence, the strength in numbers philosophy of this very forum.

of course, all speculation here, but this whole process is certainly taking its toll on my patience. i just realized it's been a couple of weeks since i last heard form support. i think i'll "check-in" with them again and see if there has been any progress. will post any developments.

[seantyas]

It was good that I got the extra users' bounces, definitely. I think once they see they cannot blame the system (5 systems in different countries is definitely difficult)... something must be done :)

[simog]

Any updates on this...be keen to see what has been said since as I believe I am having similar issues with regard to midi latency.

[seantyas]

Yes there was an update:

according to them it is not the #1 priority issue. Though it is hard to see what could be worse than a 3 year old note timing problem.

They assured me its very high on the list though, and they apologized. for the first time.

[grs]

Just keeping an eye on this thread.
Did a test with an old 1.8Ghz laptop, fresh install windows xp.
Cubase 3.1, and virus TI install.
I got almost sample accurate timing with a test project that I normally get plus or minus 8 milliseconds with on my AMD Athlon 64 x2 Dual 6000+

The only stand out differences are:
Intel not AMD
Laptop only has USB 1.1
Laptop is self contained, AMD system has lots of cables going in out of it (RF probs??)
Laptop has almost nothing installed, AMD has a hundreds vst/vsti, Net, office, graphics apps all over it.

I'm going to devise tests to eliminate some of the above like a fresh install on the AMD with on HD, no peripherals etc.

[paulkeeley]

just thought i'd post on this issue again, even though the latest 3.0.4.00 beta has not solved the matter. i've again contacted access support to notify them of this. i'm guessing the r&d department isn't anywhere close to even considering this issue.

still frustrated at having such a potentially great machine that can only reliably be used for pads.

[grs]

Update on my AMD vs Intel test, I found the problem was the AMD Cool and Quiet feature had turned itself on in the motherboard. Turning it off fixed the sloppy timing (+ or - 10ms bad). Now it's a tight b*%&#! The Cool and Quiet feature can default to on if your CMOS battery goes flat or you update your mobo bios.

I get the occasional ARP let go.(once or twice a session). but the notes themselves hang onto + or - 2ms.

[grs]

So a few weeks later and the timing is out the window again, cool and quiet feature still turned off in motherboard bios and same exact cubase file shows sample accurate timing on my old slow 1.8ghz laptop. Maybe I sould dump my AMD machine and go get an Intel one.
Anyway going to try updating stuff...
Anyone else with bad timing and AMD systems???

[grs]

OK, just talking to myself here, did a total uninstall of access and virus ti software etc, cleaned registry of traces of access and virus ti stuff. (I've had the same XP and virus ti combo for over 3 years )
Fresh installed 3.0.5 and got sample accurate timing, yay! :)
But lots of stuck notes and less polyphony, no joy. :(
Two tweaks later and back to normal...
The tweaks are:
Regedit - HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Access Music\Virus TI\Virus Control
change ShowMIDIActivityMeters to 0 ( something to do with my graphics setup and dual view vertical monitors or what ever )
and
Lower RME buffer to 512 from 768
Each of these tweaks alone doesn't stop the stuck notes but together they are bliss.

[grs]

One more thing, if your using another sound card disable the 'Virus TI Audio 2.x.xx' driver in device manager.

[leaker]

OK, just talking to myself here, did a total uninstall of access and virus ti software etc, cleaned registry of traces of access and virus ti stuff. (I've had the same XP and virus ti combo for over 3 years )
Fresh installed 3.0.5 and got sample accurate timing, yay! :)
But lots of stuck notes and less polyphony, no joy. :(
Two tweaks later and back to normal...
The tweaks are:
Regedit - HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Access Music\Virus TI\Virus Control
change ShowMIDIActivityMeters to 0 ( something to do with my graphics setup and dual view vertical monitors or what ever )
and
Lower RME buffer to 512 from 768
Each of these tweaks alone doesn't stop the stuck notes but together they are bliss.


hmm this has been very interesting this thread as we have had latency problems since having the ti we have had it on two systems we have never been able to get it working using virus control, we do however use two moniters and i notice here you mension duel view being a problem maybe? what have you done here mate to get rid of your problems? have you turned these services off or something?

[grs]

Yeah, the re-install / clean out of registry was probably the biggest thing. Now printing mixdowns is about painless as using other other vsti-s.
One time since then I got some spazz timing but noticed I changed the buffer on the RME to 1024 for something else, then changed back to 512 and all was well again.

Newborn: Good luck with your quest, everything I suggest is in my post you quoted.

[leaker]

thanks mate il give this a whirl and il let you know how i get on

[oblivion]

Is this problem solved?

I really miss my TI Keyboard(the sound of course) sold it couple of years ago because of problems with VC and timing issues as in this thread.

Please TI and TI2 users can u tell me that Access have fixed the problem or not?

[Narcissus]

i have a TI Snow with OS 4.02 and i´ve got no syncing issues in my desktop PC

[oblivion]

Narcissus!

Is the Snow ok to use for Trance, House regarding polyphony?

I am just interested in ordinary sounds (common subtractive synthesis) and nothing of the new synthesis functions.

Can you play all 4 channels at the same time without note steal or dropouts, or should I go for the TI2 Desktop instead?

THANKS!

[Narcissus]

You see, besides the Virus i use a Waldorf Blofeld, a Yamaha a4000, a Yamaha SY77, and a Korg ESX1, so i never used more than 3 tracks on the Snow simultaneously, as there would be no sonic space to fit them.

Using 3 parts i had no trouble at all with voice stealing. According to the manual, if u use relatively simple patches you can get around 50 notes of polyphony.

Of course if i could buy a TI2 keyboard i´d do it, but it´s just too expensive for my budget. Besides, i learnt it´s not advisable to base your music too much on only 1 instrument, to make it sound more varied, so my personal motto is : i'd rather buy many cheaper synths than just one expensive do-it-all synth.

Taking all the above into account, i´d say the Snow is perfect for those styles.

[oblivion]

Thanks Man!

[oblivion]

Anybody else got timing issues on similar setup as mine?

My computer and sequencer
iMac Intel 1.16GHz Core 2 Duo OS X Snow Leopard 10.6.4, Logic Studio 8.

[paulkeeley]

wow i'm amazed this thread is still alive - thought it got lost in the noise so speak. well, just to weigh in again, i've been in contact with support again after a 4 month break. still no sign of resolution, even after installing the latest public beta.

to summarize: sloppy note timing when running standalone via MIDI. MIDI interface/OS/flux capacitor settings ruled out as cause. support was able to replicate the issue using USB connection to send MIDI.

so, something's definitely up at the synth's hardware level. every single other synth that i have does not exhibit anything close to this sort of behavior - even the synths that cost < 10% of what i paid for my TI. just plain odd, and disheartening.

i'll definitely post my results from this latest conversation with support if/when any sort of verdict is reached.

p

[oblivion]

All the users who have latency problems with midi, VC and USB should put up a video on Youtube so the future buyers will be warned if they has not found this or access-music forum to read.

It gives me a real headache because I want to get a TI2 Desktop, but after reading all this latency problems I am not sure I want one.

The problem for me is that I cant find a single Youtube video on this matter? so I have to read all about it here and access-music forum and try to decide if it is a problem I can live with or not.

Youtube is the best place to se what people has trouble with and all viewers can help out.

Is the problem only when recording or is it playback?

I vant to use it as it is intended with VC, USB and be able to record at least 6 tracks without any sloppy timing issues when I play it back.

I can take a little latency when recording but not on playback, then it is a doorstopper and access-music should not sell it at all.

Please! put up your problems on Youtube.

[MBTC]

It gives me a real headache because I want to get a TI2 Desktop, but after reading all this latency problems I am not sure I want one.

You might check my experiences logged in this thread with a TI2 desktop, trying to overcome the latency issues in FLStudio on Win7 64-bit. Sadly I just couldn't get things to work right, ended up having to send it back. Tragic because I had wanted a Virus for a long time. I still want one, I just need it to work well without the latency issues and so forth, otherwise I'm better off with a pure soft synth environment for workflow reasons.

http://infekted.org/virus/showthread.php?t=32138

I'm not sure Access should quit selling the things though; if I were playing live I can't think of any other synth I'd rather have. Whether or not they will ever really get the Total Integration / USB stuff working the way it should might be a different story... long term they are going to have to, because soft synths are getting better all the time and with something like a Core i7 processor you've got plenty of CPU cycles and polyphony etc.

[grs]

I used to have this prob but not any more, very good timing.