Quantized notes sound un-quantized
 

had the virus ti a while now but only starting to really try to use it more.. and more and more i notice, that when i play, say straight 8th notes OR 16th notes, its not exact 16th notes.. the note timing is 100% ALL OVER the place.

I have the latest os 2.5.1 and am running on logic 7.2.3 on a mac pro.

anyone else experiencing this?

Hey,

How badly is your Virus out of time? I have a Virus C and have been experiencing the same thing. MIDI playback is a little sloppy with a noticeable delay...

Only difference is I'm using Cubase 4.1.

By the way if you're really Sean Tyas, I love your work ;)

hahhaha yep its me :) THANK you man!!!

i am debating to try this beta 5 os

The latest beta is appearing to get a lot of thumbs up.

I think Access will release a final release soon.

if you use Virus Control something goes wrong, the timing is supposed to be "perfect" since all the notes are time stamped and not arrive in a sequential fashion like it would using midi.

i'm not sure if logic 7 and the newer mac pros are good friends, all i know is that the new 8 cores are a challenge for most developers of realtime applications (which would include virus control). so give beta 5 a try, it might help, from the top of my head we improved several things which will only show their ugly face on multi-core systems.

hth, marc

ok check out the attached mp3...

each pluck is just 2 notes, PERFECTLY quantized but sounds like its played live

http://www.seantyasmusic.com/access

i've had the same issue here - i use my virus primarily in standalone midi mode, as i can't stand to work with even the slightest bit of latency.

i've taken the issue up with access support in the past. the issue seems to be when i'm using complex patches (anything but standard saw/pulse).

i tried a comparison test with a dry unfiltered sawtooth, and the timing was rock solid. i then tried some hypersaw, and the timing went completely off.

so, long story short - if any of the oscillators in a patch are set to anything but "classic", you can say bye-bye to timing. i'm not sure if this is the same case for the C line or earlier, but it has driven me to the brink of insanity on many occasions.

what i usually end up doing is layering a vst-i with similar settings (where applicable) underneath the virus to thicken things up and ensure that at least something is playing back spot-on cue. seems to work well enough. still frustrating, especially since my nord wave is bang on all the time. different architecture, obviously, but bad timing is not something you'd expect in a high-end piece of gear.

hope that helps. happy head-bashing!

paul.

I've been having the very same issue on my TI Polar - latest OS 2.7.5 OSX 10.5.5 8 Core Mac Pro Logic 8.02.

If i fire off complex patches or patches that have very quick modulations on attack, or if there is a monophonic lfo cycling a parameter such as formant or filter env depth - things start to sound wrong. The envelopes skip the attack and the modulations go awry....

if what you guys say is true I'm going to be V disappointed, one of the main reasons I outlayed all this money for a hardware synth was to avoid bad timing.....

Depends how you use it I suppose. I've come to the conclusion it may never work right - maybe TI 2.

That's too bad because my Virus TI is always out of time... I love the sound, I HATE the timing.

Especially when I output my Arp notes.... The notes are 100% all over the place, they never sit in the same place twice.

I still love my Virus.

I know exactly how you feel, amazing synth that has issues. With me I don't often use that many parts so I suppose I don't push the VC/Synth integration too much, but the other day I made this Chord Arp, Very simple single modulation of the formant shift on one osc, lfo was set to monophonic. When I played it back in standalone mode sounded great, cycling up and down. In Logic and VC the playback turned the modulation into a random event. Very frustrating. The hope was that sometimes it did work ok, so I'm thinking maybe it's Logic, but I don't know.

I also find if I use the filter env to modulate the filter env decay (ie:recursive modulation) that If I play a couple of notes it sounds really great with a tight attack. If I add another part the attack portion randomly skips it's decay.

In a way it reminds me of my old Roland JV2080. Sounded great on it's own, start sequencing with it, and all sorts of timing delays and envelope problems came to show.

I love my TI to bits, I hope there will be a fix

Mike

this thread has inspired me to take another stab at virus support. i set up an ableton test project with an 8th note quantized 4-note chord rhythm and ran through each oscillator type while recording to audio.

i ended up sending them the ableton project and the patch in question. here's hoping they'll be able to replicate it and sort it out. if they can, it'll be like having a brand new synth that i could use anywhere in the mix, instead of just for pads/effects/etc as it is now.

Wow! this is serious problems, I was going to buy a Snow or Desktop very soon but now I am not so sure about it anymore.

It may be so Access have to little horsepower in the Virus TI??? that is what I think.

Are there any user who use it professional in Studio without sync problems?

SERIOUS!!!!

Well yes I think it's serious, everytime I mention it I don't really get alot of feedback, either I'm imagining it, or people generally haven't noticed it (I find that hard to believe) or it's an unmentionable wall of silence:confused:

I've never meant trouble by posting issues, sometimes I question whether I have, but I can categorically say I have noticed several issues which I perceive to be DSP power related and although I'm no engineer I feel I am correct on this one.

The other thing I've just thought of, when I had my Indigo2 (before I drowned it in wine and got an Insurance payout - for once in my life luck was on my side and I got a TI as a result) I programmed some sounds using the Moog filter in self oscilation. On the Indigo it used to make a great kick. On the TI, it looses the attack for about 5 keypresses and then starts to play back if you play back multiple keys in legato. I know these are probably rare sounds using the filter and envelope like this (including recursive modulation) I always found it disconcerting that the TI had problems playing those sounds exactly. Flame me if you like, but I'm sure there is a technical reason why..

I welcome people's comments!

Is it better when using the TI with just MIDI or is it the same?

How many tracks before it cracks up?

Wery important questions for me, so please I need your opinions.

Anybody whithout quantize problems?

Well I don't use it with midi, never really have to be honest. I can perceive modulation going awry with 3 tracks running. If I recall one had 2xUnison, and the other has the formant modulation I've mentioned. This is on a TI Polar.

in my experience, it's the same regardless if i'm using MIDI or the TI plug-in. definitely an issue with the synth's dsp as near as i can tell. realistically i can use 2-3 patches in a multi with reasonable polyphony (12-note max) before things get really out of whack.

however, even using single patches, there is a definite internal timing problem. still in the process of sorting it out with support. they've been unable to recreate the issue on their end and suggested it was due to my set-up, but i've tested it with all of my possible midi interfaces (usb and firewire) with the exact same results.

so i'm thinking it's either to do with a hardware batch being flawed, or they're turning a blind eye. i'm very much hoping it's the former, as long as it's fixable. i just want to be able to reliably use my synth instead of having to mask it in the mix.

btw, if anyone is interested, here's the test project i put together in Ableton Live 7 along with the single patch in sysex format:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=e...db6fb9a8902bda

for each test, i simply changed the oscillator type of OSC1. in the recorded audio you'll notice how OSC1 drifts out of time from OSC2 (which is just a simple classic sawtooth).

i'd be very interested to know if any of you experience the same thing with your synths.

cheers,
paul.

Hi Paul,

I had a listen. I can hear from your audio what you are saying. I'm more logic based and I set up a similar test using your patch. With just those 4 chords and changing oscillators I have to say it sounded more accurate than your file... Was this played originally in VC or via midi?

Totty! do you have Mac or do you have the old Logic for PC?

Can you please test the Virus TI with MIDI?

Thanks!

I shurley hope that the TI performs better with Mac and Logic Pro? if not, it is bad horsepower=old horses it may be!?

thanks for giving this a go Totty - i haven't tried the test yet in Logic - i assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the MIDI timing between Ableton and Logic would be the same - i'm predominantly a Logic user myself.

i recorded the notes in realtime and then quantized them to 16th notes within Ableton. i'm running an iMac C2D 2.16ghz so horsepower shouldn't be an issue there.

i'll give it a shot tonight within Logic and see if that makes any difference whatsoever.

cheers,
Paul.

ok, i tried the exact same MIDI clip in Logic 8, and i'm still getting the same note drift.

here's the Logic project if anyone's interested in trying it out further:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=9...db6fb9a8902bda

cheers,
Paul.

aaaaaaand since i clearly haven't posted enough today on this topic, i've made a bit of a breakthrough.

in VC mode, everything is rock solid. it's only in MIDI standalone mode where the timing goes to hell and back. again, no problems with my other synths whatsoever using the same MIDI interface(s), cables, etc.

so, it must simply be the way the TI is handling MIDI input info. or at least that seems to be the case with mine.

hope this helps in any way, however insignificant.

cheers,
Paul.

Hi Oblivion, I'm on a Mac with the latest OS on Osx and VC and Logic 8.02.

I think Paul has just answered the issue below, it seems midi timing is worse - which it should be as the VC is supposed to be sample accurate.

Hi Paul, sounds like you have made a breakthrough:) I'm downloading your Logic file and will have a go here too. From what I know the VC timestamps midi events so the timing should be accurate on VC, However as you say, your other midi synths don't exhibit this problem.

I will also try a midi connection to my TI, may take me a few days as I'm set up very minimally at the moment, so I'll have to dust off my AMT8 and Motu in the attic:)

Best regards

Michael

Very interesting thread!

I hope Access is reading this.

Yes it is! I'm conscious that there may be 2 separate issues are here.

1: The Midi Timing of the Virus TI as a standalone midi Synth.
2: The issue I mentioned regarding heavy patches and fast modulation/envelopes tripping up the sound.

I'm inclined to think they may be one of the same. I'm speculating here but if there are DSP resource issues as a standard midi synth this could be alleviated to an extent by loosening the sound reaction time so that lots of notes don't start exactly together. I know midi is a serial protocol and no 2 notes can sound exactly together, but by reducing reaction time would give the hardware more processing time (not good!).

With Virus Control the data has to appear out sample accurately apparently. This would disallow the theory above, but since I have experienced these modulation and envelope discrepancies, that could also be as a result of DSP resources lacking.

I'm happy to be proven wrong - in fact I hope I'm wrong, because as it stands I don't feel I can make a complex sound and have it play back correctly unless I'm using only one channel.

hey all - once again, another development on my end. with the patch in question, running in MIDI standalone mode, i noticed that if i adjust the amplifier envelope release time to 20, where there is no note overlap, the timing is relatively tight. not as tight as VC mode, but much tighter than before. however when i bump it up to 36, where there is slight note overlap, the timing goes awry. yet another clue that it may be the way the virus is handling note information and note stealing.

i've sent this latest development to Access support. hopefully they can shed some light on the subject. if anyone has a chance to try the same out on their setup it would be greatly appreciated. if this isn't just an issue with my virus, then this is something hopefully Access can fix.

cheers,
Paul.

Have you experienced any problem with ordinary patches = Bass, Trance sounds, strings and pads?

Hope there is only problem with complex patches.

Hi Oblivion,

It's really hard to quantify, the problem I suppose is originally you don't build things up thinking scientifically like we are now, and I'm sure no one here really does:-D. I've never used the TI VC all out as I've had other issues over the years and have just used it for one or 2 channels. As I said in a previous post I've really cut down my hardware - it's all still here upstairs but with my MacPro and the TI and sometimes the Blofeld I feel I have it all covered and alot more space:p

But as I've come to use the VC more, these niggles have surfaced and I'm still avoiding using it like I would like to. From memory standard patches with none of the more complex forms of synthesis are far more efficient than the others. This is no secret and Access say that polyphony drops alot with graintables and formant processing. I don't mind that at all, but I want what I do play to be played back with rock solid timing and not with random glitches in modulation or envelopes if I choose a more complex synthesis method.

Hope this explains a little better.

As a matter of interest Paul, when you are using the Virus in VC mode are you using the Virus as your sound card or are you using the sound card on your PC ?

Out of all the different ways you can route audio and midi with the TI I am starting to suspect from what I read and have experienced that you get the best performance (latency wise etc) when using VC with the TI as your sound card. Maybe wrong though :-D

i remember trying to use the TI as a soundcard when i first bought it (quite a while ago now) to see if it would solve the latency issue, but didn't notice any marked improvement over my existing audio interface. in fact if i recall correctly, i was getting worse latency when using the TI's audio. anyway, i pretty much dropped the idea then and there, since i have other external gear that i need to be able to record and much prefer to use my trusty FW410 for such things.

thanks for the suggestion though - definitely an option for those who are using their TI without any other external gear.

Is it safe to use it with just five or six channels and ordinary subtractive synthesis+arpeggios and lots of fx?

I want it badly because of its soundquality, but if it is useless as a multitimbral synth with sloppy timing I have to find an other synth.

Just interested of its subtractive synthesis, fx and arpeggios, dont care about the other synthesis in the Virus TI.

I hope that you have the answer?

Thanks!

Hi Oblivion,

I reckon you'll be ok (don't hold me to it!) If you keep on the standard waveforms and use just effects I believe with VC it will work ok.

Hi Paul,

I found that using my 828mk2 as the main interface and piping the TI through USB sounds slightly more latency than direct through the TI's Audio interface!! Don't know why - it's almost negligible though.

I've PM'd you Paul with a test I'd like you to run if you have time.

Kind rgrds

Mike

i've only having major note timing problems in MIDI standalone mode. so, if you're content only using the synth as a plug-in (with some latency), then you'll be relatively ok on that front, as long as you keep your voice count low. i would say you'd be safe running 2-3 patches with low polyphony/complexity at once. anything above that, and you're asking for trouble. adding big reverbs and long feedback delays will also take a fair chunk of available DSP power, further limiting what you can realistically pull off.

this is specific to the TI Desktop/KB/Polar. if you're thinking about a Snow, then you can cut the performance by half, as it's got half the DSP power as the Desktop/KB/Polar.

cheers,
Paul.

Thanks! paulkeeley!

access wrote me trying to weasle out of this.

"This "smearing" is what we have designed it to do"
oh man what a joke.