Extraordinary task: Early Jan Hammer Moog lead sounds

[Jimknopf]

Hi guys,

I just ordered my first VA-Synth ever, an Access Virus Rack XL, after carefully having listened to many VAs in different stores. If any, this one is going to be able to do the job I want, the rest is crap for my purposes.

Belonging to the generation which has used all the analogue gear (from Minimoog to Korg Polysix) I'm looking for two different things:

a) experimental sound design like all of you: just trying new things with a good sound machine and then using them in music

b) trying to ?get a s close as possible to *very* special Moog lead sounds from the 70s of the 20th century. They were used by keyboarders like Jan Hammer and George Duke, whom most of you will not even know, though for example Jan Hammer changed the sound world of keyboarders like hardly any other musician in the 20th century.


My first quetion - before asking more specific and trying to supply sound samles - is if anyone in this forum is confident to program Moog lead sounds at all. I ask so because I think that the new Moog-like step filters which Access have provided in their latest OS release for Virus C and Rack XL could make it much easier to get the job done.

My rack will probably arrive here on Friday, and I guess I will have to spend at least one or two weeks with it to get acquainted with its basic functions and basic programming. And I fear I have forgotten much of the analogue programming knowledge I had when I used a Minimoog.

So I would be thankful for any help on my probably difficult way.

First question:
Has anyone of you ever tried to reprogram Moog lead sounds (from e-guitar-like to flute-like) on the Access Virus, especially with the new filters?

I know my chances are low, but as we say in Germany: only if you ask someone can help you...


Regards
Jimknopf

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by Jimknopf

My first quetion - before asking more specific and trying to supply sound samles - is if anyone in this forum is confident to program Moog lead sounds at all. I ask so because I think that the new Moog-like step filters which Access have provided in their latest OS release for Virus C and Rack XL could make it much easier to get the job done.

I have done vintage sounds. There's some on my sound set for B series. Not actually Minimoog sounds (except few basses) but mostly Emerson's modular patches from various ELP tracks.

My rack will probably arrive here on Friday, and I guess I will have to spend at least one or two weeks with it to get acquainted with its basic functions and basic programming. And I fear I have forgotten much of the analogue programming knowledge I had when I used a Minimoog.

No worries. Virus is very easy to use. Since you have a rack, you'll be programming it through SoundDiver from your PC/Mac (easier that way). And synth programming skill doesn't disappear. When you've once learnt it you'll remember it rest of your life (you'll notice that when you use your Virus for a while).

So I would be thankful for any help on my probably difficult way.

I'm here to serve... and CRUSH YOUR ALL DREAMS! HAR-HAR-HAR! *bwaak*. No... really. I should get more sleep.

First question:
Has anyone of you ever tried to reprogram Moog lead sounds (from e-guitar-like to flute-like) on the Access Virus, especially with the new filters?

Not tried the new filters since I had kB, but flutes are very easy. Guitars are a bit more harder nut to crack. Feedback lead guitars are rather easy with high resonance and distortion, but more clean guitar sounds are difficult. But as always with patience and skill it can be done.

I know my chances are low, but as we say in Germany: only if you ask someone can help you...

Nah. As we Finns say: "No-one is a smith when born". Practice and more practice.

[Jimknopf]

To give all of you who never heard of Jan Hammer some acoustic hints, I begin with two examples from 1974 and 1975, both played on Minimoog:

first example is a cut from "no fear" from the LP "like children"

second example is a cut from "between the sheets of music" from "black sheep"

In both cases my concern are not so much the other sounds, but the Minimoog leads. Any chance of getting similar results on Access Virus C /Rack XL?

It's my first effort to upload attachments here, so I hope they appear in my message...

@Juho: thanks for encouraging and the proverb


Jimknopf

[Jimknopf]

Originally Posted by Jimknopf

It's my first effort to upload attachments here, so I hope they appear in my message...

Jimknopf

Seems attachments didn't work: I used "add attachment": so wthat went wrong?

Jimknopf

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by Jimknopf

Seems attachments didn't work: I used "add attachment": so wthat went wrong?

Since the database is limited the attachment size is restricted to few kilos (for MIDI files).

You'll have to upload those clips somewhere.

Edit: And if something can be done on Minimoog, it can be done on Virus. Minimoog is very simple machine and so are the sounds when compared to Virus.

[Jimknopf]

OK, I uploaded the cuts and here we go with the links:

Cut from "Between the sheets of Music"
http://www.frickenschmidts.de/Cut%20...of%20music.mp3

Cut from "No fear"
http://www.frickenschmidts.de/Cut%20No%20Fear.mp3

Any ideas how to get these sounds?

Jimknopf

[Juho L]

Basic things you got there. That intro on "No Fear" might take time to program, but can be done. Otherwise very simple stuff.

Edit: Programming those sounds is fairly easy. Even beginners can do them easily. Just wait till you get your Virus.

[Jimknopf]

Don't care about the intro...

The Lead sounds are the first things I would like to get on the Virus...

So let's start with 'Between the sheets of music'.
I got my new VirusRack XL yesterday. Listened into tons of available sounds straight away: well, well, I believe that many things can be done with it now...

It was some pain to get the Sounddiver working (midi errors, I had to receive the Rack sounds bank by bank and sometimes patch by patch, just like it was with my sound diver Trinity two years ago), but finally I could hear through a lot of sounds, load and receive with only occasional errors.

You say it's a basic task.
But among all the sounds I listened to up to now there was a lot worth keeping or modifying, but nothing coming close.

Jan Hammer uses a typical early Minimoog E-Guitar-Sound here.
Mod wheel variations (together with pitch bend action) vary the sound considerably while playing.

I tested the new Access 24db moog-like Filters: they really can do the job of the punchy Minimoog attack very well, better than anything I've heard on any VA-Synth before! But I don't find it so easy to reconstruct the overall sound, neither the envelope nor tone colour nor the exact effect settings (finally including reverb/delay and something coming close to slight overdrive).


So in short words: if it is easily done, I would like to hear it.


Jimknopf

[Juho L]

As a basic rule in recreating sounds is that you'll have to work hard on a perfect result. Learn to know analog synth programming and your Virus special systems. Then just listen the original and try to pick the characteristics you hear and try them out. It's very hard to say anything else universal. Recreating process is like n times of listen and tweaks. The more you tweak the better it (usually) is.

Since Minimoog is completely analog and Virus is digital there will be some tonal differences. For example the Virus might not sound as live as Minimoog, but can get close with clever use of LFO's.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

ITs important to remember that the minimoog had ADS envelopes (In other words Decay and release shared the same setting). Bear this in mind when programming authentic minimoog sounds. You can make some pretty good minimoog sounds on the virus......dont be afraid to use the onboard eq and osc distortion.

Go here >> Ive got some moog filter sounds there

http://www.sunesha.nu/virusforum/viewtopic.php?t=678

At the end of the day...if u really need that moog sound...then buy one of these >> http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com/

DS