Dub step and non-sequentialism vs. the writer

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by boreg

I'm not a fan of Scrillex, but this tune is perfectly identifiable

LOL! She added enough extra musical work to that rendition that he should just give her credit for the actual song

[feedingear]

Your definition of music (whether for arguments sake or not) is very, very shallow. A composition does not require a distinct melody to be a compostion.

Its funny that you say, any organised collection of samples or sound effects, as the broadest definition of music is simply 'organised sound.'

Sheet music is one of the worst and inaccurate methods of communicating and preserving music, due to factors like the insane level of difficulty and restrictions in notating a physical linear score (relaying the composers emotional intentions, notating extended techniques effectively, writing with scales that arent built on 8 notes etc).

Many people have attempted to overcome a lot of the restrictions inherent in scoring (see: graphic scores of the avant garde, non linear scoring http://andrewhearst.com/blog/2006/02...r_george_crumb) etc, but recorded audio remains the best method of preserving and communicating a composition.

I don't see why it keeps coming back to Skrillex (guy must be losing a lot of sleep over this thread), but eh. Here's a few examples of harmony, melody, counterpoint in his music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e_3Cg9GZFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJVmu6yttiw

Eg - bangarangs aroung Gm, with clearly defined melodic parts (G Bb, C Eb in main section). Just because a sound has unusual harmonics in it, doesnt mean there isnt an underlying melody thats discernable.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by feedingear

Your definition of music (whether for arguments sake or not) is very, very shallow.

And as I have mine, you have your opinions, some which I find to be shallow as well, but I guess it's great that we all have ours. The very last sentence in my prior post said that my own definition was much more open than what I was describing, yet you still decided something yet undefined was too narrow for you -- without ever knowing fully what my definition of music is.

And regardless, my music creation goals and opinions are mine and mine alone. I'm not out to convince anyone they should be more like me, the world doesn't need any cheap imitations

Skrillex comes up in dub step discussions because he's considered one of the poster boys (if not THE poster boy) of the modern incarnation of the genre. As I said, if he has some tracks where someone could sit down at a piano and start playing the basics of the tune and others would be able to identify it, then those tracks would meet one of my own musical goals. I don't hear that in any of his more popular tracks and the links you posted would not display for me. I'm not trying to tell anyone they should adopt my view, and anyone would need to be trying hard not to have seen that in my prior message -- more less pining for a debate on the subject which I'm not really interested in as much as simple expression of viewpoint.

[feedingear]

'the truth is that if you gave Skrillex a piano or any other instrument than the specific sound bytes he uses to create a track, and asked him to reproduce the song in a way it was identifiable, he wouldn't be able to... you've got a better chance of success asking an elephant to fart in the same sequence of notes on command.'

The cover above is a perfect example of the harmonic and melodic components of the track (few bung notes aside), and any person who had heard the Skrillex version could easily identify it. The tracks I linked were Skrillex - Bangarang, and Summit (Feat ellie goulding).

If melody is to define a composition, would Penderecki - Threnody therefore not qualify as a musical composition, as it would not be possible to do a piano reduction or reproduce it without an orchestra? Does that render the piece null and void, make it any less beautiful or stirring?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8

Fortunately debates aren't one sided affairs - if you want to post an opinion then its up to others to concur or object

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by feedingear

'the truth is that if you gave Skrillex a piano or any other instrument than the specific sound bytes he uses to create a track, and asked him to reproduce the song in a way it was identifiable, he wouldn't be able to... you've got a better chance of success asking an elephant to fart in the same sequence of notes on command.'

The cover above is a perfect example of the harmonic and melodic components of the track (few bung notes aside), and any person who had heard the Skrillex version could easily identify it. The tracks I linked were Skrillex - Bangarang, and Summit (Feat ellie goulding).

If melody is to define a composition, would Penderecki - Threnody therefore not qualify as a musical composition, as it would not be possible to do a piano reduction or reproduce it without an orchestra? Does that render the piece null and void, make it any less beautiful or stirring?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8

Fortunately debates aren't one sided affairs - if you want to post an opinion then its up to others to concur or object

And they are free to do so, but when they start debating with me only to find I'm uninterested, the only way they will not find it one sided is if they find someone else to continue with them. Career contrarians are around every corner, a dime a dozen on the net, and will always find something to disagree about wherever they go. At some point many of them will mature and realize how much of their life they've wasted on that, or perhaps not. Also with maturity comes the ability to have enough confidence in one's own opinions to not feel the need to challenge everyone else's, so as to compare and contrast and split every hair.

Looking at the specifics of my quote, I don't suppose anyone happened to notice that's not Skrillex playing? Unless he changed his hair style a little since I last saw him.. lol. If you have videos of Skrillex actually reproducing all of his tracks in their entirety using a piano or similar acoustic instrument, I would retract my statement. Otherwise it has only been reinforced here.

Of course tracks are easily identifiable when you search Google or Youtube for them by title, especially when the title is displayed right there in the link. Whether or not anyone would identify the track by hearing that rendition (without having a clue of the title or the author or even genre of music) is something that could only be proven (and thus my theory disproven) with a blind study. I personally doubt I would have recognized it but maybe an occasional Skrillex fan would, and admittedly I don't listen to most of his tracks more than once or twice so I won't pretend to be a fan. But of course that was not the crux of my quote that you included (apparently without fully understanding).

Identifying a song by title first, then finding a melodic rendition of it using a search engine in hopes of finding contrarian evidence is actually the reverse process of what I was suggesting. The only way to prove or disprove would be to start with the melody first and provide no clue to the title. Starting with the title might be entertaining but would be "cheating" for purposes of that sort of study.

[feedingear]

There's currently two million views of that piano reduction on youtube, three million on another how to piano reduction. But apparently we need a blind study to make the (apparently difficult) abstract jump from one timbral arrangement to another, despite retaining all the same harmonic information?

Perhaps you suffer from amusia or are tone deaf? That's the only feasible explanation I can find for your blatant musical ignorance. That or you simply don't have a single, solitary clue about writing, producing, or engineering music.

[feedingear]

Sure, lets get hung up on semantics, and your conjecture about his instrumental proficiency - despite the evidence of him being an accomplished singer and guitarist in previous bands and current recordings.

Are you really going to say you need a video of him specifically playing a reduction of every work to disprove your 'point'?

What is the difference between the composer and a performer playing a very faithful arrangement of their piece?

Why would that make the composition any more or less relevant?

Since when does a composer need to perform a piece they have written?

Arnold Schoenberg
Mahler
Hector Berlioz

All composers who wrote magnificent enduring influential music who could either barely play, or couldn't play at all.

Please, enlighten us!

[TweakHead]

No idea why the two of you can't get along. It's kind of old news for anyone here, but it's kind of sad that it keeps on going and going...

Now back on topic:

A point was made with the piano video. The cover is actually pretty damn close to the original and the original happens to be - arguably - his most famous track of all. The differences are not in the melody itself, it's in the sounds that perform it: and Skrillex managed to compose it and present a big chunk of it with his own processed voice. It's his voice and synthesizers, mostly and the level of production on both accounts is paramount! Regardless of one's own taste, don't know how anyone can claim otherwise.

What made him famous was precisely this: he can make wonderful sounding, cheesy even melodies, he can use his own voice and make it sound like some pop star - but he's the one to credit for both melody and voice, isn't he?; then he can turn things around and bring the more edgier, aggressive mood of (kind of) more banging electronic music. And he does all that with as high as it gets level. He does it all on his own, from composition, to mixing, to mastering - and it sounds as good as it gets in any sound system in the world!

Not a fan either, btw. But been into this music thing long enough to be able to recognize the obviousness of the truth: while there's haters everywhere, the majority of people that actually make it big have earned every step of their way with pure talent!

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by TweakHead

A point was made with the piano video. The cover is actually pretty damn close to the original and the original happens to be - arguably - his most famous track of all. The differences are not in the melody itself, it's in the sounds that perform it: and Skrillex managed to compose it and present a big chunk of it with his own processed voice. It's his voice and synthesizers, mostly and the level of production on both accounts is paramount! Regardless of one's own taste, don't know how anyone can claim otherwise.

What made him famous was precisely this: he can make wonderful sounding, cheesy even melodies, he can use his own voice and make it sound like some pop star - but he's the one to credit for both melody and voice, isn't he?; then he can turn things around and bring the more edgier, aggressive mood of (kind of) more banging electronic music. And he does all that with as high as it gets level. He does it all on his own, from composition, to mixing, to mastering - and it sounds as good as it gets in any sound system in the world!

Not a fan either, btw. But been into this music thing long enough to be able to recognize the obviousness of the truth: while there's haters everywhere, the majority of people that actually make it big have earned every step of their way with pure talent!

As I said, Skrillex is really good at what he does. So is Deadmau5 and both earned what they have. And there is a possibility that Skrillex could sit down at a piano and do way more than I've ever seen him to, I don't deny there's a possibility I could be wrong but I have heard him say things in the past that support my theory. If someone has a video of Skrillex proving my statement wrong it would be interesting fodder no doubt. Admittedly I have not searched for that at all. Nobody should be rubbed wrong by what I said if they are a Skrillex fan -- it's really not an insult to him just a statement that he is more of a producer than a musician.

[TweakHead]

I fail to see how him being able to play the piano or not is relevant. He's clearly able to both compose and produce his music, and his music does actually show that he knows his music theory...

A musician isn't just someone who can perform with an instrument. Many times the best performers are not good writers and the other way around. With Electronic Music it's always more about composition then live performance, and people are praised for what they can do within the realm of sound and music (yes, the two combined) rather then just for their clever usage of scales and harmonies, or their keyboard playing skills. Isn't that so? I'm sorry to say I don't see much of a point. A producer is someone who can put things together, but doesn't necessarily have the creativity to come up with something on his own. That's what a producer is. This isn't the case. He's a musician, a producer, he also does all the engineering involved in his music from mixing to mastering. He's the whole deal. He knows audio and music inside out, like those behind all successful Electronic Music acts do. That's what it takes. If you ask me, I think most of this guys, even when they're kids making annoying music that just happens to be what's currently driving people nuts in clubs and outdoor festivals, are much more proficient about what they do then previous generations of musicians, where some of them couldn't compose a song on their own, can't perform or understand the other instruments that were part of the band, couldn't produce, mix and master their own music without hiring professionals to do it for them; so in a way, they were less educated and needed much more assistance to produce their music then Skrillex (or any such acts) - even the Doors.