Making two different patches sound correct

[///AznTi]

Ok so the problem I'm dealing with now is having two different sounds that I am playing in KEY but the two different sounds do not sound well together. I like them in their own aspect in terms of timbre and the quality that comes out but when they are mixed together for example when one patch is playing and calls the other patch...it doesnt sound right.

The tone just sounds off. I know I'm playing them both in key but it just erks me that its not the way I want it.

How do you get the two different patches to sound more in tune with each other?

Detune?
Fine tune?
Pitch?

Yeah I know I'm a newb but I'm working at becoming better.

Here is a song where you can listen to all the different sounds but the overall tone and pitch are right plus everything is tight...hehe

EXAMPLE

Eventhough the keys are simple in this song....one patch is playing with the filter modulating and will wait for the other sound to come in and they take their turn allowing each other to breathe while the bassline is rolling and the percussion makes some changes.

This all make sense? Well I'm just trying my best to make the sounds I have created all make sense and sound in tune with each other.

Thanks for reading.

[Timo]

Do you have examples of your own problem? Because pitching issues are completely different to what you are referring to in the MP3 you gave. The latter is more about song arrangement and mixing techniques (EQ, patch selection, etc,), while you're discussing intonation problems.

On the Virus, with regards to fine-tuning, Oscillator 1 is always a fixed pitch, while Oscillator 2 detunes in a positive fashion, so if Oscillator 2 is detuned a lot the average pitch between the two oscillators is skewed upwards (slightly sharp), unless you use Oscillator 3 to detune in a negative fashion to bring the average pitch back to the same as the original Oscillator 1.

So beware of this when mixing two patches, say if you're mixing one patch that uses just one oscillator, and another patch with two oscillators that are heavily detuned.
I have to watch this especially when mixing Virus patches with my other synths, as I don't use Oscillator 3 unless I have to (to use less polyphony), so the Virus patches tend to be nearly always skewed upwards (sharp) compared with other synths.

Personally I would prefer it if Oscillator 1 allowed fine detuning, so if you were using two oscillators you could balance the average pitch between the two (say Osc1 = -20, Osc2 = +20..... As opposed to Osc1 = 0, Osc2 = 40, to obtain the same effect, as the latter would skew the pitch of the whole patch by +20 cents.)

[///AznTi]

OH wow. Thank you YODA and I really mean that. I understand the example I gave you is not a great one but that is what I'm striving my sounds and overall skills to come to...eventually.

I know I can make those sounds but sometimes it can get frustrating.

But in all seriousness....what you just said about detuning between OSCs and the 3 OSC is very helpful and makes perfect sense. IF anything I just want to use one OSC until I advanced my skills.

As for this part you said

Personally I would prefer it if Oscillator 1 allowed fine detuning, so if you were using two oscillators you could balance the average pitch between the two (say Osc1 = -20, Osc2 = +20..... As opposed to Osc1 = 0, Osc2 = 40, to obtain the same effect, as the latter would skew the pitch of the whole patch by +20 cents.)

How so? IF OSC1 is zero and is a fixed pitch and OSC2 =40 how would that skew the pitch by 20 cents? Sorry if I sound stupid or my math sounds wrong I'm just trying to understand this.

[Timo]

If you're using one simple oscillator, you don't need to worry about pitching problems whatsoever (unless it's being modulated elsewhere in some wierd fashion).

If you have two simple oscillators that are detuned from each other, the 'perceived' (average) pitch you'd 'hear' would lie directly in the middle of them.

So if you had Osc1 fixed at 0, and Osc2 detuned at a value of +40, the average perceived pitch would be in the middle of those two = +20.

Unfortunately because Osc1's fine-tuning is fixed, you can't re-balance any pitch offset when using Osc2 too. So when you're building some of the more detuned patches, for trance maybe, the average pitch can easily be skewed upwards a touch, making it sound sharp, and certainly way off pitch when played against another synth.

I was wrong to say 20cents, as the values on the detune knob are unrelated to real-world pitch. One full rotation (+127 values) of the Osc2 detune knob actually pitches Osc2 up by 50 cents (real world). Osc3 can pitch downwards 50 cents.

If you used all three oscillators, Osc1 at 0, Osc2 at a value of +30, and Osc3 at -30, the average pitch would be 0 as they balance each other out.

I think I may well missing what you're actually after, though....

In what way do your patch's tones "sound off", when combined? Are you actually talking about pitch? Or do you mean something else, such as in terms of occupying too-similar areas of the frequency spectrum, volume, panning, effects, etc.? What sort of patches are you attempting to combine?

[Onkel Dunkel]

Originally Posted by ///AznTi

How so? IF OSC1 is zero and is a fixed pitch and OSC2 =40 how would that skew the pitch by 20 cents? Sorry if I sound stupid or my math sounds wrong I'm just trying to understand this.

Because the average of 0 and +40 is +20 -> (0+40)/2=+20.
If osc1 was detuned -20 and osc2 was +20 the average would be 0 -> (-20+20)/2=0...

[///AznTi]

Timo

Everything you are telling me is educating me alot man. Thanks so much for taking the time. It makes perfect sense. Now I just need to apply that towards the patches I'm creating.

As for your questions...

In what way do your patch's tones "sound off", when combined? Are you actually talking about pitch? Or do you mean something else, such as in terms of occupying too-similar areas of the frequency spectrum, volume, panning, effects, etc.? What sort of patches are you attempting to combine?

Here is a clip of a track i'm currently working on. In this example I think everything is in tune, but the newer version which I don't have now lol. There are two patches creating that bassline. One in a lower octave in a bassline patch I created and another patch playing an octave higher all in the G key....

In addition to that there is a melody in a higher range around the half way mark with a bassline change.

This is why I was originally asking how do you make two patches sound correct in the right tune. Maybe my patch in the melody section needs more work or its competing too much with the other patches. Not sure...

But in the newer version when I strike that higher G note which is an Octave higher, its then that the entire thing sounds off and makes the melody section sound off. I hope you can follow...I myself I'm getting lost...lol Or this can be completely an arrangement issue as well.

I'll post the newer version tonight or tomorrow...havent had time to create music in a couple of nights...

But here is the clip to give you an idea what i'm going through. Hope you like my design

Just a thought but maybe when I strike that higher G note the filter that is hitting that different frequency is creating a different timbre....and is taking up a different spectrum of the track.

dunno I'm lost...lol So much to learn...hehe

Sorry I side tracked again...anyways...here you go

EXAMPLE

Onkel Dunkel

Because the average of 0 and +40 is +20 -> (0+40)/2=+20.
If osc1 was detuned -20 and osc2 was +20 the average would be 0 -> (-20+20)/2=0...

Thanks man. Makes perfect sense. I thought we were making music here but I feel like I'm back in math class...hehe

Thanks for the clarification

[Onkel Dunkel]

Music is more math than you think

[///AznTi]

I noticed....hehe